45 replies to this topic

[jwilcox25]

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin

these tests reveal blood platelet levels which don't say anything about levels in the brain

[OneScrewLoose]

^This.

Catecholamine blood tests are useless to gauge brain levels. It was this facepalm moment that made me go off on your post. So please, don't come in acting like an authority, this kind of thing is the basics here.

[Mixter]

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin

these tests reveal blood platelet levels which don't say anything about levels in the brain

Yes, they can reveal/exclude severe depletion. It's intended to detect overabundance due to tumours etc. but practically serves as exclusion test of severe depletion, and can be well worth it, I've seen patients in other forums who detected things by chance with those tests. more important are the hormone levels, though.

[nancyd]

Hypothetically, if someone has depression, medication/ECT only takes care of the symptoms (such as low serotonin). The cause is still left to grow and eventually becomes larger than the current medication, requiring stronger treatment of the symptoms.

[Logan]

Together with the insomnia, my 90% bet lies on: moderate to severe clinical depression. You are just probably taking much better than average, due to being life extensionist and all, but it still is one. What you describe as "depressed" not in the traditional sense sounds very much like a set of symptoms compatible with standard severe depression. It does not need to involve sadness, for instance. If your doctors tell you otherwise, frankly they're incompetent.

Have the neurotransmitters in your blood tested, this works reasonably well for catecholamines and serotonin. Then you may have an objective criteria for endogeneous depression, which has to be treated. I would then try to go for tianeptine and 5HTP for serotonin replenishment and low-dose deprenyl for catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine), before you try the standard side-effect loaded stuff. If that does not work, worst case try tricyclics (TCA) as they may work if SSRIs do not. (Btw, Amitriptyline is the oldest TCA and the only TCA not under suspicion of causing DNA damage.)

I would keep checking DHEA, thyroid and the other hormonal usual suspects as well, because if you are in a depression and just keep going anyhow, you may have severe stress symptoms (including hormone and vitamin deficiency), but I doubt they are the root cause. So definitely also keep taking omega3s, vitamin D with blood tests to get to 60ng/ml, high dose B vitamins every day, even if you don't feel benefits, to prevent it from getting worse.

PS: Really, having blood tests done for neurotransmitters are most crucial, as well as for the hormones. They'll save time and money. In another thread you state taking 1000 IU Vitamin D, from common experience probably way to low. What are your blood levels?

It seems that you are the one who is incompetent.

Do you not see a trend in how people are interpreting what you are describing?

It appears you become very defensive when anyone mentions that they think one of the causes of your problems may be underlying depression. This makes you look like you are in denial and do not have an open mind. Remember, when people make these suggestions they are only trying to help. That is what you want isn't it? Or do you just want to hear what you want to hear? I don't think this will ever help you, if anything it will hurt you in the long run.

These people aren't trying to help. Help would be: "I have a feeling you have some underlying depression. Have you been treated for this? What have you taken?"

This is the polite and helpful way to do this. But a couple people have come in with their already complete diagnosis and not even asking me what I've used, suggesting SSRIs and TCAs and other useless things (in my case) . The last one was the worst, saying that any doc who disagrees with him is incompetent, and then being stupid enough to suggest a serotonin blood test as a measurement of his diagnosis. I can't believe that you don't see the problem with this, and I make no apologies for being a dick to these people.

As for the depression, I feel it's there but it's certainly not the underlying condition, otherwise all the AD meds I've taken would have been more helpful. If someone wants to have an actual discussion about this (as opposed to asinine statements), I'd be open to that.

@diljena: I would consider myself to have been numb for about 10-12 years now. I used to smoke and it was quite helpful, but I quit. I still smoke 2-4 times a month when I am particularly tired (non-addictive personality thankfully). I've used weed but not much, it makes me quite anxious if I have any more than a little bit. I had two Epstein Barr tests, the first one negative and the second one positive. The doctor might have been trying to patronize me though cause I was always in there all the time (this was before I knew about Celiac). I keep a very strict gluten/caesin/soy/egg/nut free diet. I've occasionally used E (maybe about 3 times total). It felt good but didn't remove the underlying anxiety like this experience did. Gummed some coke once and didn't like it. Not much else in drugs. I haven't gotten heavy metals or lyme tested because I am very suspicious about their significance, especially the lyme. There hasn't been one double-blind study yet showing antibiotics beating out placebo in supposedly chronic-lyme patients. It's not something I would throw out completely, but lyme seems far-fetched. I would be interested on more info on heavy metals though. I've had my cortisol, T3 and T4 tested and they came out normal. I did a ton of research on Candida and I feel it's bogus alt-med crap (I can post my thread on my reasons if you're curious). I've been checked over by a chiropractor but he seemed like a quack and the things he did didn't seem to help. I've had a cold sore. I feel adrenaline rushes all the time, and I try to suppress them because they wear me out. Regretfully, I haven't done much CBT, but I am actually working on that now.

I'll list some more testing I've been through when I it comes to mind

The reason why people don't word things that way is because they just don't. Therapists word things that way, not your average person. You cannot expect that from most people.

[Logan]

Hypothetically, if someone has depression, medication/ECT only takes care of the symptoms (such as low serotonin). The cause is still left to grow and eventually becomes larger than the current medication, requiring stronger treatment of the symptoms.

This isn't the case with everyone, some people go into remission and stay on a medication for a very long time.

The only potential long term solution is to combine therapy with medication.

[Logan]

A single dose of an antidepressant or a psychotherapy session does not cure depression anymore than one ECT does.

[/quote]
Were we speaking of a single dose? Sounds like you are spinning words to me. Medication taken everyday plus weekly therapy for however long is necessary, can cure depression.

I am not opposed to ECT. I think it has saved many people's lives. And, I know it is safer and more effective than ever. Still, I would air on the side of caution when considering it or suggesting it to someone.

[Logan]

OSL, I understand why you were frustrated with the previous poster. Maybe they should have taken a better approach.

I would not underestimate the power of underlying chronic depression and anxiety. Together they can lead to all sorts of other issues, possibly similar to the one's you are experiencing. Just suggesting that is all. Also, just because antidepressants did not help much(I believe you did say you got some relief from Paxil), this does not mean that depression and anxiety are not a major problem here. There are plenty of people with treatment resistent depression and anxiety.

Your depression may be a symptom of another root cause, yes. Whatever it is, I do hope you get to the bottom of it eventually and begin to fully enjoy life as a young person should.

It's also important to realize that your problems may be a result of a complex issue that involves 2 or 3 different causes. It is unlikely that one thing is happening that is causing you to experience everything you suffer from.

Edited by morganator, 18 March 2010 - 05:34 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

OSL, I understand why you were frustrated with the previous poster. Maybe they should have taken a better approach.

I would not underestimate the power of underlying chronic depression and anxiety. Together they can lead to all sorts of other issues, possibly similar to the one's you are experiencing. Just suggesting that is all. Also, just because antidepressants did not help much(I believe you did say you got some relief from Paxil), this does not mean that depression and anxiety are not a major problem here. There are plenty of people with treatment resistent depression and anxiety.

Your depression may be a symptom of another root cause, yes. Whatever it is, I do hope you get to the bottom of it eventually and begin to fully enjoy life as a young person should.

It's also important to realize that your problems may be a result of a complex issue that involves 2 or 3 different causes. It is unlikely that one thing is happening that is causing you to experience everything you suffer from.

I used to think that, that there was multiple unattainable causes, but what happened to me removed every problem I have (except my food issues of course). If one thing can do that, then that suggests one mechanism (or at least 1 system). This and the fact that so many meds that help other people just don't help me. Even E didn't remove the underlying anxiety. Only this did.

I ain't bitchin about the wording, I am bitching about coming in here with assumptions and calling other opinions incompetent. How do you NOT see the problem with that?

@Mixter: Link for the relevance of serotonin blood levels for your "extreme depletion" theory.

I suppose this is partially my fault. I made the original post sound a bit desperate in hopes to get more help. That backfired quite nicely...

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 18 March 2010 - 09:20 AM.

[Logan]

OSL, I understand why you were frustrated with the previous poster. Maybe they should have taken a better approach.

I would not underestimate the power of underlying chronic depression and anxiety. Together they can lead to all sorts of other issues, possibly similar to the one's you are experiencing. Just suggesting that is all. Also, just because antidepressants did not help much(I believe you did say you got some relief from Paxil), this does not mean that depression and anxiety are not a major problem here. There are plenty of people with treatment resistent depression and anxiety.

Your depression may be a symptom of another root cause, yes. Whatever it is, I do hope you get to the bottom of it eventually and begin to fully enjoy life as a young person should.

It's also important to realize that your problems may be a result of a complex issue that involves 2 or 3 different causes. It is unlikely that one thing is happening that is causing you to experience everything you suffer from.

I used to think that, that there was multiple unattainable causes, but what happened to me removed every problem I have (except my food issues of course). If one thing can do that, then that suggests one mechanism (or at least 1 system). This and the fact that so many meds that help other people just don't help me. Even E didn't remove the underlying anxiety. Only this did.

I ain't bitchin about the wording, I am bitching about coming in here with assumptions and calling other opinions incompetent. How do you NOT see the problem with that?

@Mixter: Link for the relevance of serotonin blood levels for your "extreme depletion" theory.

I suppose this is partially my fault. I made the original post sound a bit desperate in hopes to get more help. That backfired quite nicely...

I said I understand your frustration, so yes, I do see a problem with that.

I have fortunately had luck with taking antidepressants in the past that seemed to obliterate anxiety and depression. But, just because this one drug worked so well for me, this did not mean the underlying causes/issues I had that contributed to my depression and axiety were not fairly complex.

[sthira]

I am at a weird point in my life right now. I don't really want to do anything, I fight myself to get to sleep (incurable insomnia), I fight myself to get up, feeling tired and shitty in the morning. I feel like shit most of the day, and the only true motivation I have is obligation. But I have this memory of being happy...

So I am at a strange crossroads in my life, and I've never needed more help.

I am currently studying abroad and when I get back in August...

For what it's worth, I've found no relief in Western medicine, and I've been down some paths. Idea: when you return from studying abroad, consider taking on something like a vision quest. If you're a college student, there's no better time in your life than right now to go do something amazingly awesome -- like, eg, hike the Pacific Crest Trail for six-months -- hike it all the way from Mexico to Canada -- be alone and do a little physical suffering and work on your place in the natural world. Hike all day, stare at stars all night. We're all suffering in this life -- plants, animals -- maybe find some connection in that suffering. You may not cure yourself, but you'll certainly have new perspectives. Just a thought.

[OneScrewLoose]

I've done a lot of meditation and non-medication related things. It's greatly increased my insight, but certainly hasn't cured this problem.

[k10]

I can relate to your problem and like you I spent an endless amount of time obsessing over what may have been causing all my symptoms. I've come to realize that in almost every chronic condition like you have, there are ALWAYS multiple abnormalities.

You will never find 'one' root cause that you can fix. Your whole body is disregulated. The chasteberry or whatever that you took most likely had some sort of immunomodulatory properties that have never been studies, which made you feel so amazing. It likely worked in combination with your other supplements as an immunosuppresant -- which made you feel temporarily better, but in the long term damaged and dysregulated things in your body further. What is dysregulated? Many things including your immune system, hormones, neurotransmitters, etc. You'll never find an easy fix to your problem because there are multiple things going on. There's no magic supplement or medication that will fix you. It will likely take many years of addressing the MANY root problems to bring things back into balance in your body & to regain homeostastis... and to feel good and functional again. You have a long road ahead of you. I speak from personal experience and personal observation in others who have gone through similar things.

You need to address, in order of importance,
1. Subclinical infections - the absolute bigger root cause of most peoples symptoms... almost everything else is just a trigger and further burden on your body.... if I could address only one thing, it would be this. Unfortunately bacteria, viruses, and parasites have the upper hand & we are left to suffer in a variety of horrible ways.
2. Toxicities (heavy metals, environmental stressors)
3. Lifestyle (exercise, diet, balanced schedule, mental health)
4. Brain chemistry

1) The longer you are chronically ill (from any primary cause), the greater the chance that the following secondary problems will develop:
- Intracellular infection(s)
- Endocrine (and particularly adrenal and/or thyroid deregulation - usually with a deficiency of one or both).
- Gastroenterological deregulation (likely including impaired absorption and/or detoxification).
- Heavy metal toxicities (that may accumulate from normally harmless daily ingestions, when detoxification is impaired).
- Neurological impairments (affecting neuro-transmitters, brain chemistry, brain function and even brain structure).
- Immune system deregulation (which can include some immune mechanisms being over-reactive, while at the same time other mechanisms can be under-reactive).
- Genetic predisposition (will affect how severe each of the above problems are for a particular individual, and a weakness in the genetic blueprint may actually be the primary cause of any or all of the problems above, as well as other problems that I haven't specified).

2) It doesn't matter which of the above problems was primary. Each one will eventually result in all the others (or an ever increasing risk of them), if not directly and effectively addressed.

3) Once any one of the problems listed above develops beyond a threshold point of severity, it will not correct itself without direct, educated, strategic and purposeful intervention - even if the primary cause of the problem (and possibly other problems)is successfully addressed. For example, once adrenal output is exhausted and deregulated, this puts an incredible stress on the body, in a multitude of ways. This will keep a person sick (until they address their adrenal exhaustion with appropriate support), even if the original cause of the stress (and adrenal exhaustion) is successfully addressed and no longer a problem. Another example, if detoxification is impaired, and mercury levels have grown excessive as a result, they will impair immune response and deregulate essential mineral transport and normal metabolism, and will continue to overwhelm the detoxification system - until an initiative is taken to remove the mercury (intelligently and effectively).

4) The interventions or supports used to help any one of these problems (or other systemic problems a patient has), are contraindicated if they worsen (or confound or prevent recovery) from any of the other systemic problems they suffer from. However, sometimes a temporary compromise may be necessary, with treatments for different problems taken in revolving cycles.

5) When all of the above problems (and/or other systemic problems a patient may have) are addressed successfully (either all at the same time or sequentially in cycles), then the overall homeostasis (bio-chemical balance) will approach normal (and healthy). Only then can major recovery be expected (in long term cases).

The earlier chronic disease is addressed (appropriately - with identification of its bio-chermical cause as low down on the molecular pathway as possible), the greater the chance the patient will be able to recover from effective therapy

[k10]

"Gu SYndrome" is an amazing concept in traditional chinese medicine that explains these subclinical infections that are so hard to get rid of, check out this great article:
http://www.classical...auf_gufinal.pdf

He created some amazing Chinese herbal concoctions called "Classical Pearls" that can only be prescribed by a doctor, that are taking at very concentrated doses for around 2 years that are meant to address most infections. The herbs in them are very strange, some have some toxic properties. But they work synergistically to address almost any chronic deep-rooted infection. I personally responded to this therapy. There really is nothing like it. Worth checking out.

Edited by k10, 19 March 2010 - 05:52 AM.

[Animal]

Personally I would focus on the one issue you feel is most debilitating and try and relieve that, before moving on to each subsequent issue/symptom. You'll never find one thing that will address all your problems long term.

[OneScrewLoose]

Personally I would focus on the one issue you feel is most debilitating and try and relieve that, before moving on to each subsequent issue/symptom. You'll never find one thing that will address all your problems long term.

This is the purpose of this thread, mi amigo. I have narrowed it down to one most likely problem, and it is what I plan to tackle it in full force. I just need a little help, that's all...

Just saw this in the ZMA thread:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16648789

I posted in another thread that bumping my zinc up to 100mg/day did a lot of help for my chronic fatigue, but that I went back down due to safety concerns and possible sides I was having. More fuel for thought from the hormonal perspective.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 19 March 2010 - 09:41 PM.