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the no-aliens ever makes you fear for our future?


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#31 shifter

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:26 PM

Don't listen to anyone who says we are alone in the universe. For them to assert this accusation, they would have had to look at every micron in every corner and place in the infinite ever expanding expanse, look in every single dimension and basically have a complete understanding of the entire universe to come back and say 'Yep, just checked, nothing out there'. Oh and he would also have had to have checked everything at every moment in time, billions of years before our own solar system was created, just incase something WAS there before.

Which is obviously a load of crap. Nobody is Omnipotent.

Working on the rules of probability, the chances of life out there elsewhere either from long ago, to now, to in the future is very good when you have an infinite playing field.

Edited by shifter, 23 March 2010 - 09:26 PM.


#32 Forever21

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:34 PM

Nobody said we are alone.

#33 Luna

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:38 PM

shifter:

A) people claim to know the number of atoms or matter in the universe.. and size of universe.. and the rest simply "forget" to say "observable universe".

B) I didn't mean life which is barely as good as our technological level, I meant that no advanced ones. :/

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#34 shifter

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 12:12 AM

I certainly wish I were surrounded by open minded people, but I personally put up with people who possess this sort of arrogance.

Some religious groups still believe we are unique and in the centre. I don't count these people as arrogant, just misguided or stuck in faith.


As for advanced life, it only needs to start off with a few amino acids for a chance. I still think its a lot more probable we aren't the only intelligent life forms in the universe than it is improbable. As much as it would be nice to meet up, those chances for now are more improbable. We may encounter remnants of their civilisation just as some race may encounter remains of ours.

If it took the universe 15+billion years to get to where we are now, and our planet 4-5 billion to get us to a stage we are at now, space faring races may only last several thousand years before they move on, evolve or run out of resources and die off. The timing that 2 or more races that could meet up from opposite ends of the universe (or just a galaxy or even a few dozen light years) that have followed similar evolutionary and technological pathways is astronomical. As we are talking about a very narrow moment in time.

Who knows, they probably saw the dinosaurs, or set foot here or sneezed 4 billion years ago and left a few trace proteins which started life on the planet :) Maybe our universe is a by product of some alien lab experiment that was smashing particles together much like our hadron collider in in the aliens blink of an eye(s) time frame we will be gone again despite the billions of years passing on our time frame

Perhaps one day we can evolve to a point where the universe is tangible and can be our playground and we can meet up with other races. I'm hoping, but just sorry I wont be around to be there.




Nobody said we are alone.



#35 khakiman

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 01:13 AM

Maybe there is no aliens and all the ufos are really just human time travelers that don't want to interefere too directly, not because it will disrupt their timeline, but because the mere knowing that humans make it into the future would make us all super lazy and apathetic because hey, we make to the future either way!

#36 Forever21

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 01:16 AM

<br />I certainly wish I were surrounded by open minded people, but I personally put up with people who possess this sort of arrogance.<br /><br />Some religious groups still believe we are unique and in the centre. I don't count these people as arrogant, just misguided or stuck in faith.<br /><br /><br />As for advanced life, it only needs to start off with a few amino acids for a chance. I still think its a lot more probable we aren't the only intelligent life forms in the universe than it is improbable. As much as it would be nice to meet up, those chances for now are more improbable. We may encounter remnants of their civilisation just as some race may encounter remains of ours.<br /><br />If it took the universe 15+billion years to get to where we are now, and our planet 4-5 billion to get us to a stage we are at now, space faring races may only last several thousand years before they move on, evolve or run out of resources and die off. The timing that 2 or more races that could meet up from opposite ends of the universe (or just a galaxy or even a few dozen light years) that have followed similar evolutionary and technological pathways is astronomical. As we are talking about a very narrow moment in time.<br /><br />Who knows, they probably saw the dinosaurs, or set foot here or sneezed 4 billion years ago and left a few trace proteins which started life on the planet <img src="style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> Maybe our universe is a by product of some alien lab experiment that was smashing particles together much like our hadron collider in in the aliens blink of an eye(s) time frame we will be gone again despite the billions of years passing on our time frame<br /><br />Perhaps one day we can evolve to a point where the universe is tangible and can be our playground and we can meet up with other races. I'm hoping, but just sorry I wont be around to be there.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

Nobody said we are alone.

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Ah, yes. The religious.

Note that the major religions (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe we are NOT alone.

And Richard Dawkins is willing to accept that we are indeed alone in the Universe.

#37 niner

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 01:50 AM

When I was a kid I was convinced that aliens visited me. I thought they were interested in why humans were as violent as they were and had not developed into an advanced race-and that they could only observe as policy. As I got older I thought they could be humans from the future time traveling to avert disasters --still older I finally hit high school and started reading actual theories others had on whether or not there is alien life. Over the past 15 years I've seen a lot of arguments, with new interesting ones coming out every year. Forever21's list is great for example :) My stance now is that I like to think there is life out there somewhere, but I'm disappointed in their emotional intelligence or empathy to end suffering in others if they do just observe us from afar or check in every few thousand years. So, I go with the extreme distances theory, life evolved here on Earth over 4.5 billion years. The Universe is 13.7 billion years old-but is 165 billion light years across. So, say it took longer or just as long for other civilizations to evolve- and even if they are a billion years advanced from where we are now, they still may not have been able to travel fast enough to get out of their own galaxy... maybe we'll still meet up some day :)

Them being too far away is also quite scary, does it mean the universe can't be controlled as we hope and we are doomed anyways? HOPE NOT! uff..

Universe being X light years in size only? I dunno, that's also scary.

I always find this scary thoughts that we might just be like molecules in some cell of some bigger person's machine :/ ;-;

Why is it scary that the universe is big, or not infinite? That doesn't mean we're doomed. We can have a fine life right here in our own little galaxy. You seem to have some free-floating anxiety... everything is scaring you. Is something troubling you?

Oh no! It's just that I think if theories like the big bang, that the universe started from a singularity and is not infinite in size, that could mean a lot of bad things for us.
It might even mean good things but so far physicists aren't known for good things for keeping things going indefinitely.

Life in our galaxy? well, that's the things, galaxies aren't immortal, does it mean anything about our ability?

Physicists are all too happy putting a doomsday in the "fate of the universe". Energy always seems limited in one way or another. Yeah, I think the universe is pretty scary and not just because of the far future.
We are on ONE planet, on our planet we can't control earthquake or barely able to predict the weather properly.

Oh and by all logic, nothing is supposed to be, that gives you a chill but at the same time it's maybe the only thing that gives some hope that we might be able to do something.
Then again, we need to survive aging, trama, disease and all that first.. Yep, the idea of trying to stay alive is pretty scary (not the staying alive part, but the how obviously) when you're thinking long term. When you are thinking short term you'll figure you probably can't pass that anyways but hey,, I hope we can (that and the long and the very very long and so on, terms).

It's not like I am *ALWAYS* thinking about those stuff and always anxious, but when I am thinking of life extension I seem to find way too many problems, on all fields.

So you do see that we have to survive the next 50 years, at which point the next 100 might be well in hand. That is so much bigger of a problem than the next several billion years. I think that the problems that are billions of years out are some sort of anxiety magnet for you. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Maybe it's just a coping mechanism for things that are going on right now, and it's no big deal, or maybe it's an unhealthy thing. I really don't know. I think that if you live for even a tiny tiny fraction of billions of years, like say ten thousand years, you will have evolved so far beyond your current human form that "death" will cease to have any meaning. It will probably lose its ability to scare you much sooner than that.

#38 full_circle

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 04:18 AM

we gonna live 4ever, it is imperative to find ways to "delete" memory, somewhat like in the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, since i do not think human mind is capable of coping with countless emotional traumas she/he would have to inevitably go through in this life 4ever: a conscientious immortal being will be bombarded by constant flashbacks and sooner or later would have no choice but to terminate one's own life.

simple zapping of a couple of brain cells seen in the upper mentioned movie will not do, since a memory is stored in "disk array" format, and wiping out only a couple of memories would require zapping off huge number of brain cells. a new method needs to be devised to eradicate only the "memory molecules", leaving all the brain cells alive and intact <-- and i am not sure this will be ever possible (i do not believe it is..)

but then, lets say it is possible,, then we need to ask ourselves --> what's the point of living 4ever without all the memories? unless you are a souless sex machine (hmm.. live 4ever only for the eternal reptilian pleasure.. that's one thing to think about..)

* one less impractical approach is to leave all the memories (and brain cells) intact, but somehow "sever" the emotions associated to each and every memory. in other words, you do get flashbacks things, but you feel no anger, sorrow, shame, joy and pleasure from them anymore (perhaps de-associate all emotions but save joy and pleasure..?)
imagine visiting "de-association clinic" every 20 years or so and say (or sign off) "and that's the way it has been" before switching on the dessocaition machine (does Cronkite power on this machine every night? ^^) maybe the maxim "one can forgive but can't forget" has valid scientific point (one can dessociate but can't wipe out the memory itself).

** interestingly i find this defense mechanism is already built in our mind --> catharsis.
this powerful burst of emotional eraser wipes out anguish associated to traumatic memories and allows us to transcend it.

***what is also fascinating is that we are somehow meant to experience catharsis only when we are in a state of mind that our soul is pure and grand. in other words, you never get catharsis when you are greedy, angry, vengeful and petty.

****our creator coded in this function of bliss in preperation of us eventually becoming immortal? and is it our creator's intention to preclude or purge out impure and petty souls ever achieving immortality even when the technology becomes available, since catharsis-deprived souls will eventually have no choice but to self-destroy from their own accumulation of emotional torment? am i giving an entirely new meaning to Purgatory?

***** anyhoo in this line of reasoning, i simply can't picture an advanced race with malignant mind.

Edited by full_circle, 24 March 2010 - 05:10 AM.


#39 Forever21

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 05:26 AM

There is no creator. If there is, he did one hell of a design.

#40 full_circle

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 05:39 AM

our puny brain is too puny to judge the efficiency and purpose of our design (btw efficiency and purpose are not seperate, meaning for example, we could be purposefully inefficient for some pupose). i also need to point out that creationism and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive, i.e. we could be created to evolve. btw to me, arguing life(cell) spontaneously formed from molecules in nature is as (or more) ludicrous than arguing computer chips spontaneously formed out of silicon and copper molecules. you may argue lightening, heat or whatever but none convinces me. it is not a matter of probability, it is a matter of impossibility.

Edited by full_circle, 24 March 2010 - 05:58 AM.


#41 Medical Time Travel

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 06:47 AM

My view is that the discovery and announcement of extraterrestrial life is more likely to be achieved through SETI than ufology. I suspect the Square Kilometre Array may have a part to play:

http://www.skatelescope.org/

#42 full_circle

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 10:56 AM

My view is that the discovery and announcement of extraterrestrial life is more likely to be achieved through SETI than ufology.


of course. but there is one thing that nobody seems to consider: radio/light/whatever waves could be interfered/disrupted by advanced technology and who knows that our own planet is under this interference i.e. waves do not reach earth or only manipulated waves reach earth. more over, this manipulation could be applied chronologically non-linear fashion, that is, advanced alien civilization may have ways to eliminate or even "substitute" whatever waves they had inadvertently sent out long long time ago, now. after all, wouldn't we want to do something about our first TV broadcast wave (Hitler's) if we could?

imo, the evidence of advanced alien civilizations will come from within our body by nano-technology or particle physics commnity, since i believe alien civilizations have left their fingerprints in our phisiology (probably in dna) long long time ago, only to be revealed in nano or sub-atomic examination.

* i btw think life on earth is a product of alien nano-technology (when you think about it, biological life itself is nothing less, nothing more than an advanced form of nano-technolgy)

Edited by full_circle, 24 March 2010 - 11:45 AM.


#43 Dorho

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:33 PM

It seems obvious to me that intelligent life forms and civilizations are very vulnerable to natural disasters. It's the robust life forms such as bacteria that survive long periods of time, not large land animals.

As an example, if an electromagnetic storm comparable to that experienced in 1859 would take place now, whole continents would be left without electricity. Property damage would be measured in trillions of dollars and the chaos and unstable conditions that would follow, would probably plummet us back to the middle ages. We take many things such as electricity for granted these days.

Or if a comet similar to that which hit Tunguska in Siberia in 1908 would collide a densely populated area, again, the consequences would be horrible. The tunguska event knocked down trees like matches on an area of 2,150 square kilometres, or 830 square miles.

Also, there have been surprisingly few megatsunamis in modern times. Largest one of the recents, the 1958 Lituya Bay megatsunami, was 524 meters in height. That kind of wave would easily destroy whole cities in coastal areas. It's a possibility that a landslide triggered in Las Palmas (Canary Islands) can give birth to a megatsunami that will wipe off whole US east coast in our lifetime.

These are the kind of disasters that can bring a civilization to it's knees. Then there are the kinds that will easily destroy even succesfull and wide-spread land animal species, like supervolcano eruption, large meteorite impact, hydrogen sulfide disaster, methane catastrophe, snowball earth etc. etc.

Oh, and 15,000 years ago there was 3 kilometers of ice on top of the location I'm typing from now.

#44 Luna

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 06:54 AM

Sorry Dorh, these are all just why it is hard for life to evolve, in fact, life wasn't wiped on earth 15,000 years ago and a technological society can avoid most of those scenarios and more.
Well, humanity as it is now probably won't avoid such a scenario if it were to come soon because humans are too ignorant and engaged in trivial matters as well as war with each other but lucky for us, those things don't happen every day or even every thousand years.

#45 N.T.M.

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 08:19 AM

Like, where are they? how come no one is there? does it mean we are doomed to fail too? feels like it :/


I disagree. It's quite probable that many have already been here.

#46 Eros

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 03:50 PM

Umm, I don't think anyone will want to get rid of conscience and empathy. Those are helpful, not harmful.

It depends from your perspective, for a soldier it might be actually harmful.

The military is already pouring resources into autonomous and semi-autonomous battlefield robotics. By the time we are even close to uploading, there will already be very sophisticated fighting robots, so if we have wars at all at that point in time, it may not be necessary for humans to be "soldiers" in the classic sense. That doesn't mean that some people might not want to.


I think War and the military interests may change vastly in a future of the undying nations, life could almost become a giant combat themed game; The winners/losers based upon resource acquisition and territorial conquest. We may fight and die in battles remotely.

#47 Dorho

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 08:56 AM

Like, where are they? how come no one is there? does it mean we are doomed to fail too? feels like it :/


I disagree. It's quite probable that many have already been here.

Depends on how we define aliens. I believe extraterrestrial microbial life forms hitchiking inside comets and meteorites, have visited and are visiting Earth, and collectively, they may even be capable of more advanced long-term thinking than humans. As an example, cyanobacteria are believed to keep the climate suitable for life billions of years longer than if they were not here, by controlling the atmospheric pressure, amount of greenhouse gasses, albedo, amount of water, continental drifts, volcanism etc. (see Gaia hypothesis).

Edited by Dorho, 18 April 2010 - 08:57 AM.


#48 Guacamolium

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 04:28 PM

Space is really big, that's probably why.

Just to check Alpha Centauri for habitable life would take decades to years to get there using our current technologies we have now, or to even get close enough to detect organisms from afar. Just seeing a planet within the life belt of a star doesn't necessarily mean that there's life there.

I suppose we could use a solar powered dynamo type engine to exponentially gain speed on its way to Centauri, but it would need an asteroid cage and follower vessels to relay navigation commands in real-time on Earth, plus back-up battery supply to the engine when the solar panels give too much power and not enough.

#49 Luna

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 07:02 PM

Like, where are they? how come no one is there? does it mean we are doomed to fail too? feels like it :/


I disagree. It's quite probable that many have already been here.

Depends on how we define aliens. I believe extraterrestrial microbial life forms hitchiking inside comets and meteorites, have visited and are visiting Earth, and collectively, they may even be capable of more advanced long-term thinking than humans. As an example, cyanobacteria are believed to keep the climate suitable for life billions of years longer than if they were not here, by controlling the atmospheric pressure, amount of greenhouse gasses, albedo, amount of water, continental drifts, volcanism etc. (see Gaia hypothesis).


cool but it doesn't mean they are intelligence. Just that we are lucky. Or for those who love to speculate, that someone else is intelligence and made us lucky by spreading those things :p

#50 GhostBuster

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 03:46 PM

I think that they are already here.

It seems to me that there is an interconnection between intelligence (the depth of thought) and moral development. This explains why superior civilizations don’t conquer earth or practice other kind of evolutionary rape. To those who object the idea that morality/spirituality etc and intelligence has anything to do with each others, I would simply say that I have never met (even via books) “an evil person” who is also a profound thinker. Bad people may excel in manipulation and calculation etc., but the more nuanced and detailed thinking is usually too much to grasp for them. There’s a limit (in the level of thinking) that can’t be crossed with utilising only some “overdeveloped” mental traits.

Or then there is an intergalactic UN or something that will guard us from evil alien races…

#51 treonsverdery

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:55 PM

I think there is a fifth organizational plane a fifth dimension
I have witnessed accurate prediction of future events which at least suggest a different structure than space plus time; possibly geometric superconnectivity is a kind of dimension
here are a few versions

you have heard of the "halting problem" build a turing machine that is capable of halting http://en.wikipedia....Halting_problem wikipedia reference

anyway visualize wrapping the tape loop around a sphere or a cube wrapped around a sphere the turing machine only behaves normally at the diameter lines up near the poles the radius is too small to run the entire tape
run the tape on the surface of a cube you have full functionality across the plane yet to turn a corner there has to be a chunking or linking unit larger or bendier than a data structure link a nonobserved link on the loop basically placing a turing machine on any non euclidean geometry creates wild new artifacts at the computation notice with that we have all three dimension plus the time to move the tape its just that the actual shape or geometry defines the forms of what is computable

now it could be that Im being dense here that the turing machine is actually just a two dimensions plus time object "The problem is to determine, given a program and an input to the program, whether the program will eventually halt when run with that input. In this abstract framework, there are no resource limitations of memory or time on the program's execution; it can take arbitrarily long, and use arbitrarily much storage space, before halting. The question is simply whether the given program will ever halt on a particular input." it looks to me like that performs radically differently at different noneuclidean geometries as math permits arbitrary mapping of any group of spaces as well as intervals absolute math forms may be the 5th dimension

what this has to do with aliens is that I think they might see us rather differently than we think of seeing things to them humans might look like an escher print with an obvious pattern of a certain kind I'm reminded of the escher print where a lizard walks out of a geometry onto a 3d book is near a glowing crystal


to humans humans might feel 3d like the person at the top of the image yet to a geometrically different alien the humans might appear rather like the tesselated area Humans look partly tesselated to me
Posted Image

Edited by treonsverdery, 28 April 2010 - 06:03 PM.


#52 firespin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:33 AM

I think that they are already here.

It seems to me that there is an interconnection between intelligence (the depth of thought) and moral development. This explains why superior civilizations don’t conquer earth or practice other kind of evolutionary rape. To those who object the idea that morality/spirituality etc and intelligence has anything to do with each others, I would simply say that I have never met (even via books) “an evil person” who is also a profound thinker. Bad people may excel in manipulation and calculation etc., but the more nuanced and detailed thinking is usually too much to grasp for them. There’s a limit (in the level of thinking) that can’t be crossed with utilising only some “overdeveloped” mental traits.

Or then there is an intergalactic UN or something that will guard us from evil alien races…


The very fact that there are several serial killers and psychopaths with high genius IQs destroys your theory.

#53 Forever21

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 09:00 PM

The most likely answer is that we are just so far from each other we may never even meet. We just don't realize how vast the Universe is. It would take millions of years just to send SIGNAL so forget actual travel. We may just take solace to the possibility that we would all be in our own speck of dust in the Universe and never meet one another.

#54 ksbalaji

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 02:35 PM

Good list, Forever21. I'll add another:

15. The ultimate evolutionary form of all life is pure intelligence, ........... They are already here because they are everywhere at once.


I like the list, it must be one of the most complete lists about the subject ever devised! It is worth publishing it somewhere. ........why then do we have to die, loose all we have learned and have to start all over again, as babies with minimal intelligence? Wouldn't it be better to live forever and develop our intelligence in the process?

I believe this. Reason: I have some references to trust. I do not overlook the very ancient Vedas preserved in India, as fairy tales perpetuated by irresponsible, ignorant, dispassionate and time wasting humans. This negative perspective highlights the importance of the message. The verses in the Vedas are preserved as sacred and sincere. There is information on immortality; on long lived humans (thousands of years!); different dimensions of worlds and life forms and different communication methods between planes amongst other things. Could it be that they are here with only their sizes smaller than viruses, but highly networked, creeping into each and every earthly living body in a massively planned way to manipulate and use the resources and incapacitate it before it becomes intelligent enough to take care of itself? May be some are spared for being reliable? Waiting for a better specimen to communicate? Is our conscience a part of any communication hub rather than a personal belonging? The unedited ancient testaments provide some clues.

#55 revenant

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 07:22 AM

Like, where are they? how come no one is there? does it mean we are doomed to fail too? feels like it :/


I disagree. It's quite probable that many have already been here.


+1

If they can reach us, they have the ability to collect data and samples/specimens very quickly. Perhaps having no reason to stick around very long, they are not often encountered. Sightings are not considered credible by the public at large who find it difficult to accept the possibility that extraterrestrials have visited. Among other reported sightings and video, the Belgian UFO wave made a believer out of me.

#56 Luna

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 01:53 PM

My boyfriend found this:
http://www.telegraph...turns-moon.html

Interesting! :p

#57 yet another searcher

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:03 AM

Imagine humans surviving long enough to evolve into beings capable of travelling amongst the stars. They will be have evolved to a form of pure energy or combination of advanced machine/biological entity that will have left you and me as far in the past as we have left the first amphibians. I presume that any non-earth sentient that would have advanced far enough to be able to cross the galaxies to "visit" Earth would have necessarily transformed itself in a similar manner. We would no more recognize that being's presence than we would starlight as it passes through us. So who knows if we have been visited by other beings? The real suprise is our belief that if we are visited by others, that they would be at a similar evolutionary stage as ourselves (albeit with scary pincers and long ears or whatever), even though they clearly will have had to evolve far beyond those levels. So, far from being a surprise that we have not seen vistors from across the universe, it is quite inevitable.

#58 Kolos

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:32 PM

Yes, I wouldn't expect them to be organic. Well at least this part of their society that is capable of exploring other star systems might be just information because I see no reason why only humans would come with ideas like mind uploading and interstellar travel is much easier without any organic life on board.

#59 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:27 AM

This question here reminds me of two idiosyncratic questions that have crossed my mind lately. One is, lets say hypothetically uploading happens soon, and they can just, take your brain power, put it in a robot shell, and you feel virtually the same. How would you view your body then seeing it lay there? Would there be a very intense sentimental withdrawl feeling after that? Or not so much? I think a persons answer to that, besides being interesting to think about, might say a lot about them.


I'd probably get tearful and emotional for a while but I wouldn't regret it for a moment.

The other philosophical question that crossed my mind recently that I was thinking of asking people is, lets say the stars started fading away over the course of the next month, and you were outside every night noticing this happen more and more, all on crystal clear cloudless nights. What might you think is going on? This question is more of a thinking exercise, more for perspective generation than anything.


Oh no, it's the big rip!!

#60 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:36 AM

Alien psychology would probably be vastly different from ours. Maybe its extremely rare for a species to evolve emotions that make them even care what's beyond their planet.




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