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Fallacy Discussion


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#31 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:35 PM

My point is this. Fallacy, in my ignorant opinion, can derive from two sources. Ignorance and insanity.


Stay with me here because I am going to challenge what you say without disagreeing categorically. There are actually at least 3, and I would argue 4 sources of fallacy. Also while I agree with calling the most common form ignorance, the second might better be termed 'irrationality' rather than insanity, because insanity describes a somewhat extreme state and in fact the most common aspects of irrationality are as you suggest, forms of denial. It is behavior that is often being simply "unreasonable' rather than exemplary of even neurosis, let alone psychosis, which also produce fallacy but in the less common and more extreme manifestation.

The problem with irrationality is one of degree and some aspects of irrationality also come from 'subjective'states of being, in other words individual perception. This leads to or can stem from, a third common form of fallacy based on sensory perception, as it is more commonly known; illusion. This is sensory deception.

However, going back to irrationality, it is difficult because we are actually hard wired to "believe" what we do not know (the roots of this are in evolutionary psychology), hence issues of 'faith'. We have faith in what we do not know. Faith is at best benignly non-rational and at its worst psychotically irrational, but these aspects of the human psyche lead to what I call the fourth form of fallacy a type of intentional deceit.

There are two commonly agreed upon forms of reasoning; deductive and inductive. I argue there exists a third form of reasoning designed not to 'prove' but to 'convince'; seductive reasoning. This is a charismatic feature of human thinking and communication derived from our mating behaviors, which over tens of thousands of years of social evolution developed into a much more important social construct first through religion, then through politics, and today through commercialism.

The memetic power of seductive reasoning is the essence of charisma and the charismatic power of priests, politicians, soothsayers, salespersons, psychopaths, con-men and pimps all share this characteristic. They are those among us who like Helen of Troy, can launch a thousand ships with a smile.

Truth and fact start to fade rapidly from view when a spin doctor can convince you to see not what is there, but through the lens of what you wish to be there, what they in fact are manipulating you to believe.

When simply a pleasant passion play concluding a dance of human courtship, this assisted form of mutual self deception can be accompanied by a rosy glow, which sadly all too often fades in the clear light of the following day. However when it is about politics, it can lead to the downfall of a people or the rise of empire. History's greatest villains and most illustrious heroes have the trait of being charismatic in common.

The irony of their very real power is that it is predicated on a prevalent form of fallacy that humans are hardwired to respond to by substituting wish fulfillment for reason. We suspend reason and accept as articles of faith because of how someone makes us 'feel' rather than understand.

Rational deception is the basis of seductive reasoning and by deception I am asserting an 'intent to deceive,'(even when rooted in self deception) hence a fallacy of intent designed to gain advantage over others for personal gain, principle, or even in some instances for the 'victims' own good through a distortion of fact.

Doing the wrong thing, even for the right reasons, is still deception after all. Isn't this how we got the expression: "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? Or as Murphy might call it, the "Law of unintended consequences". Nonetheless our genes don't care. Perhaps that is why Dawkins called them "selfish" and seduction is an expression of genetic purpose that today has evolved its own memetic mechanisms of social preservation but it's still just fallacy and the emperor is still naked.

#32 Panther

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:50 AM

I feel naked, if anyone. I see I have quite a bit of catching up to do as far as established terms and concepts commonly used here. But endure a concept of mine. Let's assume that cooperation of sentient beings is always preferable to conflict. Also assume that manipulation is a form of mental assault, conflict. Thus those who manipulate might be considered insane, perpetrating indirectly self-destructive acts. Of course, those who manipulate without an awareness of this stipulated concept would merely be ignorant.

But this is all quite fuzzy, my terms seem imprecise, I worry of complicating things semantically, oversimplifications, and the subject not being remotely fleshed out. Perhaps you, practiced in these matter, would enjoy clearing things up while I ramble so as to invigorate the conversation.

Manipulation and charm have approached the center of my thoughts of late. Somewhat hardened by life, my exterior appearance and mannerisms are often mistake for that of an unstable breed. I maintain that it's a superabundance of control that allows me to take these actions safely, but now I'm just venting. I find myself, more and more, acting like someone I'm not simply so that I'm not rejected at face value. In my studies, I've found ways to attract, allure, and bedazzle through body language, wording, tone of voice, facial expressions, etc. Combined with my amateur knowledge of psychology, I've seen the possibility of beguiling minds.

My point in mentioning this is to discuss the moral implications. My manipulations are defensive, passive, responsive. I do not alter a person's perceptions of me until they seem to be posing an unwarranted threat. Perhaps comparable to physical interactions with others? I don't know what to think on the subject yet, it concerns me. If I weren't a moral man, my life would be so much easier.

#33 TelepathicMerg

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:44 PM

Is it possible that within a perfect communication there would be no lies?

Anyway, all throughout this forum, there is a common thread of a basic belief in spreading of the "proper" information. It is also a common observation throughout history that communication, and particularly natural languages, whenever improving, simultaneously influence progress in all areas of life, including LIFE SPAN. (Kurzweil's graphic representation of change is very appropriate here.)

This is why I am presently working on accumulation of funds to support creation of a prototype (a software) of a new e-communication where thoughts are transferred in an instant. (Traditionally, natural languages where not assisted by a computer).

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#34 brokenportal

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 09:43 PM

What fallacies do you think are key?

Im in the process of writing another key list of fallacies in my own words, this time much longer. Ive come across a new one that I think is important and that is cacophemism, which is when people replace an innocuous word with a disparaging one.

#35 Panther

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 03:01 AM

Key? Self deception and assumption.

#36 brokenportal

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:30 AM

You think that those two are key, or you think that the notion of "key" is self deception and assumption?

Edited by brokenportal, 04 July 2011 - 04:31 AM.


#37 Panther

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 07:34 PM

They are key. I'd say ignorance is the root of all. Though that would require truth to exist, and humankind capable of both understanding and accepting it simultaneously. My studies suggest it's possible and has occurred numerous times throughout our kind's history.

#38 fnord

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:18 AM

Hello all. I am especially interested in this topic along with the effects of this kind of study being omitted from certain so-called education institutes(schools). I don't have anything of my own to add to the discussion here but I thought I would link to an informative website with a good deal of structured material related to the study of fallacies and in particular the classical education of the Trivium and Quadrivium. I needn't explain the importance of this study.
Trivium Education

A taster:

The Trivium method: (pertains to mind) - the elementary three.

— [1] General Grammar, [2] Formal Logic, [3] Classical Rhetoric
[1] GRAMMAR — (Answers the question of the Who, What, Where, and the When of a subject.)

Discovering and ordering facts of reality comprises basic, systematic Knowledge- not only the rules developed and applied to the ordering of word/concepts for verbal expression and communication, but our first contact with conscious order as such. This is the initial, self-conscious technique used in properly (discursively or sequentially) organizing a body of knowledge from raw, factual data for the purpose of gaining understanding (through logic) and; thus, also organizing the individual human mind. It is the foundation upon which all other "methods of organization and order" are built.

Special grammar properly relates words to other words within a specified language like English, Russian, or Latin.

General grammar relates words to objective reality in any language and applies to all subjects as the first set of building blocks to integrated or fully mindful, objective knowledge. A body of knowledge which has been gathered and arranged under the rules of general grammar can now be subjected to logic for full understanding, which, emphatically, is a separate intellectual procedure.
[2] LOGIC — (Answers the Why of a subject.)

Developing the faculty of reason in establishing valid [i.e., non-contradictory] relationships among facts yields basic, systematic Understanding- it is a guide for thinking correctly; thinking without contradiction. More concisely, it is the art of non-contradictory identification. The work of logic is proof. Proof consists of establishing the truth and validity of a concept or proposition in correspondence with objective, factual reality by following a self-consistent chain of higher-level thought back down to foundational, primary concepts or axioms (i.e., Existence, Consciousness, and Causality). It is a means of keeping us in touch and grounded to objective reality in our search for valid knowledge and understanding. Logic brings the rhythm of the subjective thoughts of the mind, and the subsequent actions of the body, into harmony with the rhythm of the objective universe. The intention is to amicably synchronize individual mental processes, and their attendant actions, with the processes of our surrounding natural, factual existence over the period of a lifetime.

[3] RHETORIC — (Provides the How of a subject.)

Applying knowledge and understanding expressively comprises Wisdom or, in other words, it is systematically useable knowledge and understanding- to explore and find the proper choice of methods for cogently expressing the conclusions of grammar and logic on a subject in writing and/or oral argumentation (oratory). The annunciation of those conclusions is called a statement of rationale, the set of instructions deduced from the rationale for the purpose of application (of those conclusions) in the real world is called a statement of protocols.



#39 brokenportal

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:42 PM

Hello all. I am especially interested in this topic along with the effects of this kind of study being omitted from certain so-called education institutes(schools). I don't have anything of my own to add to the discussion here but I thought I would link to an informative website with a good deal of structured material related to the study of fallacies and in particular the classical education of the Trivium and Quadrivium. I needn't explain the importance of this study.
Trivium Education


Thats an interesting concept, and could be more right than I gather, but in the end it seems like its just another way of grouping things and pointing out certain fallacy as the ones to learn first. Other people and websites group these in a variety of other ways. I go over it in context of another discussion in this video here:




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