• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Lithium Or Deprenyl For Stress Induced Brain Damage?


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 j03

  • Guest
  • 592 posts
  • -46
  • Location:...

Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:24 PM


Which drug would you choose if you're trying to cure brain damaged induced by stress? Especially stress that might have accumulated since childhood?

Article about Lithium: [1]

Here's one of many about Deprenyl: [2]

What other things would you recommend?

#2 tlm884

  • Guest
  • 597 posts
  • -0
  • Location:Saskatoon, Sk

Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:41 AM

Which drug would you choose if you're trying to cure brain damaged induced by stress? Especially stress that might have accumulated since childhood?

Article about Lithium: [1]

Here's one of many about Deprenyl: [2]

What other things would you recommend?


Lions Mane Mushroom and Lithium combo is what I would use. Alcar arginate.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 22 March 2010 - 10:35 AM

Which drug would you choose if you're trying to cure brain damaged induced by stress? Especially stress that might have accumulated since childhood?


The article on lithium specifically addresses damaged caused by excessive activity of protein kinase C due to stress, and its reversal. The one you linked about deprenyl addresses more general oxidative stress. I don't know enough neurophysiology to say if kinase C damage is oxidative stress, or if deprenyl would repair this specifically. But if you're asking about stress, this would seem to indicate lithium is the best bet at this stage in research.

However, deprenyl might be better for more general/age-related repair, and continuing support of more functions, without any toxic effects. Is there anything to say they couldn't be taken concurrently?

Edited by chrono, 22 March 2010 - 10:35 AM.


#4 j03

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 592 posts
  • -46
  • Location:...

Posted 23 March 2010 - 05:03 PM

Does anyone know if they can be taken concurrently?

#5 Logan

  • Guest
  • 1,869 posts
  • 173
  • Location:Arlington, VA

Posted 24 March 2010 - 06:06 AM

You can take them together.

#6 Animal

  • Guest
  • 689 posts
  • 158
  • Location:UK

Posted 24 March 2010 - 03:04 PM

Take them both, it might even be synergistic.

#7 Jurence

  • Guest
  • 137 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 24 March 2010 - 05:09 PM

I would not recommend taking them both. If you don't watch your diet, you may be seriously putting your body in danger with the deprenyl-- however it all depends on the dose. LOW dose of both *could* be alright together.

#8 Steve_86

  • Guest
  • 266 posts
  • 34
  • Location:Australia - Perth

Posted 25 March 2010 - 12:10 PM

I would not recommend taking them both. If you don't watch your diet, you may be seriously putting your body in danger with the deprenyl-- however it all depends on the dose. LOW dose of both *could* be alright together.


Please could you elaborate a little?

#9 Rain

  • Guest
  • 165 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Here.

Posted 25 March 2010 - 12:30 PM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.

#10 bobman

  • Guest
  • 258 posts
  • 5

Posted 25 March 2010 - 09:44 PM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


At 17 years old, unless you're suffering some serious mental issues, I wouldn't even consider lithium. It won't make you smarter. It's best use seems to be allowing for some neurological regeneration. This is true of a lot of substances that downregulate signaling. Your brain responds by up-regulating # of receptor sites, to maintain its normal signaling level. After long-term use, we find people who have taken lithium carbamazepine and lamictal (to name some meds in the same category) to have larger frontal cortex areas, with some more minor increases in hippocampal volume in the latter and larger increases in the lithium group.

Point is, it will not give you cognitive benefits while you take it. Almost everyone who takes lithium in therapeutic doses notices cognitive dulling, and it seems quite likely that taking a smaller "prophylactic" dose would simply give you more minor cognitive dulling, along with more minor BDNF upregulation, and more minor restorative functions. Again, it won't make you smarter. At bets it will help you recover from some damage you took as a result of major depression or a more serious neurological disregulation.

Edited by bobmann, 25 March 2010 - 09:45 PM.


#11 stablemind

  • Guest
  • 520 posts
  • 33

Posted 26 March 2010 - 02:20 AM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


At 17 years old, unless you're suffering some serious mental issues, I wouldn't even consider lithium. It won't make you smarter. It's best use seems to be allowing for some neurological regeneration. This is true of a lot of substances that downregulate signaling. Your brain responds by up-regulating # of receptor sites, to maintain its normal signaling level. After long-term use, we find people who have taken lithium carbamazepine and lamictal (to name some meds in the same category) to have larger frontal cortex areas, with some more minor increases in hippocampal volume in the latter and larger increases in the lithium group.

Point is, it will not give you cognitive benefits while you take it. Almost everyone who takes lithium in therapeutic doses notices cognitive dulling, and it seems quite likely that taking a smaller "prophylactic" dose would simply give you more minor cognitive dulling, along with more minor BDNF upregulation, and more minor restorative functions. Again, it won't make you smarter. At bets it will help you recover from some damage you took as a result of major depression or a more serious neurological disregulation.



What kind of damage would result from major depression? I've been through depression and I have a lot of memory issues, but what if I was just born with these memory impairments?

#12 Logan

  • Guest
  • 1,869 posts
  • 173
  • Location:Arlington, VA

Posted 26 March 2010 - 03:36 AM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


At 17 years old, unless you're suffering some serious mental issues, I wouldn't even consider lithium. It won't make you smarter. It's best use seems to be allowing for some neurological regeneration. This is true of a lot of substances that downregulate signaling. Your brain responds by up-regulating # of receptor sites, to maintain its normal signaling level. After long-term use, we find people who have taken lithium carbamazepine and lamictal (to name some meds in the same category) to have larger frontal cortex areas, with some more minor increases in hippocampal volume in the latter and larger increases in the lithium group.

Point is, it will not give you cognitive benefits while you take it. Almost everyone who takes lithium in therapeutic doses notices cognitive dulling, and it seems quite likely that taking a smaller "prophylactic" dose would simply give you more minor cognitive dulling, along with more minor BDNF upregulation, and more minor restorative functions. Again, it won't make you smarter. At bets it will help you recover from some damage you took as a result of major depression or a more serious neurological disregulation.



What kind of damage would result from major depression? I've been through depression and I have a lot of memory issues, but what if I was just born with these memory impairments?


It's unlikely you were born with these memory impairments. Do you remember always having them. Maybe you can't remember.

Major episodes of depression may damage the brain.


http://www.google.co...ikloMo8YXcVXrdg


http://www.google.co...AXHmUs7pES1gloQ


http://www.ingentaco...000005/art00006

Chronic stress and anxiety may damage the brain in similar ways to depression.

#13 Rain

  • Guest
  • 165 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Here.

Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:29 AM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


At 17 years old, unless you're suffering some serious mental issues, I wouldn't even consider lithium. It won't make you smarter. It's best use seems to be allowing for some neurological regeneration. This is true of a lot of substances that downregulate signaling. Your brain responds by up-regulating # of receptor sites, to maintain its normal signaling level. After long-term use, we find people who have taken lithium carbamazepine and lamictal (to name some meds in the same category) to have larger frontal cortex areas, with some more minor increases in hippocampal volume in the latter and larger increases in the lithium group.

Point is, it will not give you cognitive benefits while you take it. Almost everyone who takes lithium in therapeutic doses notices cognitive dulling, and it seems quite likely that taking a smaller "prophylactic" dose would simply give you more minor cognitive dulling, along with more minor BDNF upregulation, and more minor restorative functions. Again, it won't make you smarter. At bets it will help you recover from some damage you took as a result of major depression or a more serious neurological disregulation.


thanks for the info. about lithium, but i was talking about deprenyl... not lithium :)

#14 stablemind

  • Guest
  • 520 posts
  • 33

Posted 26 March 2010 - 06:40 AM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


At 17 years old, unless you're suffering some serious mental issues, I wouldn't even consider lithium. It won't make you smarter. It's best use seems to be allowing for some neurological regeneration. This is true of a lot of substances that downregulate signaling. Your brain responds by up-regulating # of receptor sites, to maintain its normal signaling level. After long-term use, we find people who have taken lithium carbamazepine and lamictal (to name some meds in the same category) to have larger frontal cortex areas, with some more minor increases in hippocampal volume in the latter and larger increases in the lithium group.

Point is, it will not give you cognitive benefits while you take it. Almost everyone who takes lithium in therapeutic doses notices cognitive dulling, and it seems quite likely that taking a smaller "prophylactic" dose would simply give you more minor cognitive dulling, along with more minor BDNF upregulation, and more minor restorative functions. Again, it won't make you smarter. At bets it will help you recover from some damage you took as a result of major depression or a more serious neurological disregulation.



What kind of damage would result from major depression? I've been through depression and I have a lot of memory issues, but what if I was just born with these memory impairments?


It's unlikely you were born with these memory impairments. Do you remember always having them. Maybe you can't remember.

Major episodes of depression may damage the brain.


http://www.google.co...ikloMo8YXcVXrdg


http://www.google.co...AXHmUs7pES1gloQ


http://www.ingentaco...000005/art00006

Chronic stress and anxiety may damage the brain in similar ways to depression.


Yup I've had both as well.

These findings of hippocampal atrophy raise immediate questions. First, is it permanent? Tentatively, this appears to be the case, as the atrophy persisted for up to decades after the depressions were in remission. In addition, the extent of atrophy did not lessen with increasing duration of remission .


So if the effects are permanent, how would Lithium or Deprenyl revive it, unless I misread something.

#15 Logan

  • Guest
  • 1,869 posts
  • 173
  • Location:Arlington, VA

Posted 26 March 2010 - 07:13 AM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


At 17 years old, unless you're suffering some serious mental issues, I wouldn't even consider lithium. It won't make you smarter. It's best use seems to be allowing for some neurological regeneration. This is true of a lot of substances that downregulate signaling. Your brain responds by up-regulating # of receptor sites, to maintain its normal signaling level. After long-term use, we find people who have taken lithium carbamazepine and lamictal (to name some meds in the same category) to have larger frontal cortex areas, with some more minor increases in hippocampal volume in the latter and larger increases in the lithium group.

Point is, it will not give you cognitive benefits while you take it. Almost everyone who takes lithium in therapeutic doses notices cognitive dulling, and it seems quite likely that taking a smaller "prophylactic" dose would simply give you more minor cognitive dulling, along with more minor BDNF upregulation, and more minor restorative functions. Again, it won't make you smarter. At bets it will help you recover from some damage you took as a result of major depression or a more serious neurological disregulation.



What kind of damage would result from major depression? I've been through depression and I have a lot of memory issues, but what if I was just born with these memory impairments?


It's unlikely you were born with these memory impairments. Do you remember always having them. Maybe you can't remember.

Major episodes of depression may damage the brain.


http://www.google.co...ikloMo8YXcVXrdg


http://www.google.co...AXHmUs7pES1gloQ


http://www.ingentaco...000005/art00006

Chronic stress and anxiety may damage the brain in similar ways to depression.


Yup I've had both as well.

These findings of hippocampal atrophy raise immediate questions. First, is it permanent? Tentatively, this appears to be the case, as the atrophy persisted for up to decades after the depressions were in remission. In addition, the extent of atrophy did not lessen with increasing duration of remission .


So if the effects are permanent, how would Lithium or Deprenyl revive it, unless I misread something.


I don't think any atrophy in the brain resulting from stress, depression, or anxiety is necessarily completely permanent. It's like if you have atrophy in your hamstring or quadricep because you injured your knee badly. Your muscles may not be quite as strong as before, but you can at least build them back up to 80 or 90 percent of what they were before. We know now that the brain is very plastic. We don't really know how much it can or cannot recover from certain types of damage. I'm sure some people recover better than others. I think it helps to be young. The younger you are, the better chance you have of recovering and rebuilding, given you do what is necessary.

Lithium not only increases gray matter where there has been some loss, but it promotes neurogenesis in the hippocampus. I'm not sure how deprenyl would help a brain recover. I think of deprenyl as being something that is more neuroprotective than neuroregenerative

One of the best things you can do to help your brain recover aside from taking pharmacological agents is to exercise. Also, challenging your brain through learning new things and doing exercises like crossword puzzles or soduko promotes neurogenesis.

Remember, they really are not sure if these people in the studies already had smaller than average hippocampi. So, we still are not sure if the hippocampus was atrophied as a result of depression/stress or if depressed/stressed patients already had a smaller hippocampus.

Edited by morganator, 26 March 2010 - 07:19 AM.


#16 j03

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 592 posts
  • -46
  • Location:...

Posted 29 March 2010 - 03:04 AM

Is there any evidence deprenyl helps heal stress induced brain damage the same way lithium does?

#17 nito

  • Guest
  • 996 posts
  • 26

Posted 29 March 2010 - 05:31 AM

i'm about to buy lithium for anxiety and depression and magnesium too. But here http://www.informati...il-supplements/ Lithium is not even mentioned and magnesium is quite far down. Disappointing but maybe saves me from wasting money.

#18 magnesium

  • Guest
  • 22 posts
  • 2

Posted 29 March 2010 - 08:26 AM

i'm about to buy lithium for anxiety and depression and magnesium too. But here http://www.informati...il-supplements/ Lithium is not even mentioned and magnesium is quite far down. Disappointing but maybe saves me from wasting money.


There are plenty of studies on lithium carbonate (approved drug). Lithium orotate, which is available as a supplement, has very few studies. That's why it's not included on that site.
AFAIK, magnesium hasn't really been studied for depression and anxiety. But, it is known as the relaxation mineral. It is important for serotonin synthesis, acts on NMDA receptors, relaxes blood vessels. Also, it is required as a cofactor for hundreds of reactions in the body, including ATP production.

I was getting migraines and panic attacks pretty regularly until I started supplementing magnesium. Since starting supplementation, I have had no migraines or panic attacks. Still have anxiety, but the somatic symptoms are much much less.

Lithium sounds pretty good, will try that for brain repair.

Edited by magnesium, 29 March 2010 - 08:36 AM.


#19 KimberCT

  • Guest
  • 472 posts
  • 43
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 29 March 2010 - 02:03 PM

Rat study, but thought you may find it interesting...

http://jpet.aspetjou...3/1172.full.pdf

Fluoxetine, imipramine, venlafaxine, topiramate, atorvastatin, simvastatin, oxcarbazepine, and valproate were shown to induce hippocampal neurogenesis.

#20 Jurence

  • Guest
  • 137 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 29 March 2010 - 04:34 PM

I would not recommend taking them both. If you don't watch your diet, you may be seriously putting your body in danger with the deprenyl-- however it all depends on the dose. LOW dose of both *could* be alright together.


Please could you elaborate a little?


MAOIs can be very diet sensitive depending on the dose
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/maoi.html

#21 Animal

  • Guest
  • 689 posts
  • 158
  • Location:UK

Posted 29 March 2010 - 05:02 PM

I would not recommend taking them both. If you don't watch your diet, you may be seriously putting your body in danger with the deprenyl-- however it all depends on the dose. LOW dose of both *could* be alright together.


Please could you elaborate a little?


MAOIs can be very diet sensitive depending on the dose
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/maoi.html


Yeah but as long as you take no more then 20mg/day of Deprenyl it stays primarily a MAO-B inhibitor, and so no diet restrictions are necessary.

#22 Rain

  • Guest
  • 165 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Here.

Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:22 PM

In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.


anyone?
(someone answered this but mistaked deprenyl for lithium, so i'm curious about deprenyl now:)

#23 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 31 March 2010 - 08:31 PM

I would not recommend taking them both. If you don't watch your diet, you may be seriously putting your body in danger with the deprenyl-- however it all depends on the dose. LOW dose of both *could* be alright together.

Just so we're clear...this warning was based only on the possible ill effects of too much deprenyl and diet, and not on an interaction between the two substances in question?


In relation to deprenyl, what would be a good dose to be on for someone young (~18) who is already taking piracetam/choline and healthy?
i read so many different things, like 10mg per week, as in taking only two doses of 5mg per week?? and also things like 10mg per day, so confusing .__.

There are other threads here that address this question in better detail. For that age, I think I've seen recommendations of 1mg/day max, perhaps 1mg every 2-3 days.

Edited by chrono, 31 March 2010 - 08:36 PM.


#24 Rain

  • Guest
  • 165 posts
  • 4
  • Location:Here.

Posted 31 March 2010 - 11:52 PM

^ okay thanks.

#25 madanthony

  • Guest
  • 86 posts
  • -6

Posted 02 April 2010 - 04:36 PM

Which drug would you choose if you're trying to cure brain damaged induced by stress? Especially stress that might have accumulated since childhood?

Article about Lithium: [1]

Here's one of many about Deprenyl: [2]

What other things would you recommend?

Why would you ever consider these things unless you had a test to prove you need it? Lithium as someone here said dulls the emotions (I know two people who are UNHAPPY to be on it for bipolar disorder), not a pleasant thing. And a drug! Well, I would never take one. They all have side effects and IMHO are just bandaides around a problem that only gets worse for not being solved. If you're concerned about loss of brain cells, I would investigate blueberry as there is some hoopla about its being able to regerate brain cells and it seems to me there are starting to be other things discovered along those lines. IMHO most people do not get enough B complex vitamins and that is the source of mood problems and inability to handle stress.

#26 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 02 April 2010 - 04:58 PM

Why would you ever consider these things unless you had a test to prove you need it? Lithium as someone here said dulls the emotions (I know two people who are UNHAPPY to be on it for bipolar disorder), not a pleasant thing. And a drug! Well, I would never take one. They all have side effects and IMHO are just bandaides around a problem that only gets worse for not being solved.


Because they both have implications for improving the functioning of the mind, as well as keeping the brain healthy on a cellular level? I don't think this is a "bandaid" like using a drug to treat anxiety could (maybe) be considered. Also, microdose lithium is very, very different from the amounts used to treat bipolar disorder.

B vitamin deficiency as the source of mood/stress problems is at best a massive oversimplification.

#27 russianBEAR

  • Guest
  • 432 posts
  • 22

Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:29 PM

Surely it's entirely possible, but I'm just wondering what kind of stress one has to go through to induce brain damage ? I guess we're not talking about doing pro sports or other "physical stress", just mental trauma ? I'm curious if you don't care sharing...

#28 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 02 April 2010 - 11:42 PM

I don't know what considerations k4t has, but here's a quote from the article about lithium:

Rats subjected to chronic stress develop damage to the prefrontal cortex, an area of the brain crucial to working memory, impulse control and the ability to stay focused on tasks. Long-term stress triggers excessive activity of a family of enzymes called protein kinase C, which in turn damages the cytoskeleton of neurons and hinders their ability transmit information. This loss of the brain’s grey matter due to stress has been linked to poor impulse control, a decline in working memory and inability to focus on tasks.


which implies that prolonged stress can damage the brain in a specific way, whether it's traumatic or not. This is tremendously interesting, I can't wait for more research to be conducted in this area.

#29 Logan

  • Guest
  • 1,869 posts
  • 173
  • Location:Arlington, VA

Posted 03 April 2010 - 01:58 AM

Why would you ever consider these things unless you had a test to prove you need it? Lithium as someone here said dulls the emotions (I know two people who are UNHAPPY to be on it for bipolar disorder), not a pleasant thing. And a drug! Well, I would never take one. They all have side effects and IMHO are just bandaides around a problem that only gets worse for not being solved.


Because they both have implications for improving the functioning of the mind, as well as keeping the brain healthy on a cellular level? I don't think this is a "bandaid" like using a drug to treat anxiety could (maybe) be considered. Also, microdose lithium is very, very different from the amounts used to treat bipolar disorder.

B vitamin deficiency as the source of mood/stress problems is at best a massive oversimplification.


I agree that a very low dose of lithium can have beneficial effects without having any toxic effects. People don't understand lithium. They immediately relate it's use to bipolar. Most people that use lithium for bipolar are on very high toxic mind numbing doses of 900 mg or more. There are some people that take these high doses for bipolar and feel just fine and have very few side effects. So just imagine how harmless and possibly beneficial lithium might be at much lower doses.

There is too much evidence out there to ignore the potential that very low doses of lithium may have in improving and protecting brain health.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#30 Logan

  • Guest
  • 1,869 posts
  • 173
  • Location:Arlington, VA

Posted 03 April 2010 - 02:07 AM

Here are some links regarding stress and depression induced brain damage.

http://www.google.co...o9I1b8lB2us0Gdw


http://www.google.co...ikloMo8YXcVXrdg


http://www.google.co...AXHmUs7pES1gloQ

http://www.ingentaco...000005/art00006

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).



1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users