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20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms


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#211 Cameron

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 02:48 PM

Can the masses be expected not to screw the entire planet to the point it's practically uninhabitable? NO, they can't be expected to do what's right with or without gov... even within their limited choices they've failed at most of them, large numbers failing to take care of their health, finances, the environment, their children's education, a majority holding on to irrational superstitious beliefs. The masses need to be led, those with greater capabilities and knowledge need to steer the ship.


So far, "those with greater capabilities" have screwed up health(beginning with nutrition), finance(look at the mess Social Security/Pension Plans, etc are in). Why do you think them capable of steering the ship ?


Who says those fit to rule are those who're ruling? In order to be elected and to remain in office, charisma goes a long way, it can often go beyond shown performance. Further the requirement of having to appeal in many areas to the masses or risk political suicide hamstrings the ability of the capable few who manage to get close to the top. This problem is further compounded by the fact that funding and lobbying manages to corrupt the decisions even further.

#212 maxwatt

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 02:54 PM

Can the masses be expected not to screw the entire planet to the point it's practically uninhabitable? NO, they can't be expected to do what's right with or without gov... even within their limited choices they've failed at most of them, large numbers failing to take care of their health, finances, the environment, their children's education, a majority holding on to irrational superstitious beliefs. The masses need to be led, those with greater capabilities and knowledge need to steer the ship.


So far, "those with greater capabilities" have screwed up health(beginning with nutrition), finance(look at the mess Social Security/Pension Plans, etc are in). Why do you think them capable of steering the ship ?


Who says those fit to rule are those who're ruling? In order to be elected and to remain in office, charisma goes a long way, it can often go beyond shown performance. Further the requirement of having to appeal in many areas to the masses or risk political suicide hamstrings the ability of the capable few who manage to get close to the top. This problem is further compounded by the fact that funding and lobbying manages to corrupt the decisions even further.

A benevolent dictatorship is the best form of governance. But how to keep it benevolent?

#213 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 06:09 PM

All right, to clarify to ALL OF YOU:

Right now, this second, any and every argument you make might have been perfectly true a century ago. It might even have been true a decade ago, but you seem entirely unaware of the evolving social situations which invalidate them in the present and future.

Is the government currently run by parasites? Yes.
Do these parasites seek to control everyone? Yes
Do they use force, direct or indirect to do so? Yes.

The fact is, during the entirety of human history, the parasites have run rampant through the system, from rich to poor. Capitalism may be the best economic system ever created, but it been an absolute paradise for parasites.

But, that is changing. And if you cannot see that fact, then you are blinding yourselves to it by refusing to remove your ideological blinkers.

Simply put, until recently, the parasites could do what they wanted, because the general public had not a clue about what they were doing. They could say one thing in public, do another thing in private, and cover their tracks. It was a heyday. They could control the masses by controlling the information the masses had. Occasionally, you would have some intelligent person see that something was wrong, but inevitably, those people ended up blaming the system instead of the parasites, which simply allowed the parasites to continue business as usual. They fed the public on wishful thinking and got them to ignore the reality, and because so few people could see the sham, and so few of them could talk to one another, it worked to keep the public in mushroom status, in the dark and fed shit.

That condition no longer exists.

Watch the TV, read the blogs, and read especially the commentary made by people. Is a lot of it the same blustering rhetoric as usual? Yes. But I've been watching this for a LONG time. People are waking up. They are taking control of the media away from the parasites, ignoring the messengers to find out the truth for themselves. Do many of them still simply settle for reaffirming their parasite given beliefs? Of course. But that number is shrinking. It's louder than ever, but that's because more people are on the net than ever before.

The parasites no longer control information.

They are trying. The recent Comcast case shows that clearly, but it is an effort doomed to fail. Change is happening faster than the parasites can adapt, and the collective is growing a nervous system. People are being able to bypass the roadblocks, the barricades, and the roadsigns along the paths which the parasites want them to take and are making their own decisions.

But there is more to it than this. The internet is also becoming the collectives memory. People have short memory, the internet does not. Not only can it keep records of the public, it keeps records on the parasites as well, and the people are beginning to see the double talking, lying, hypocrisy, and flip flops they make clearly.

Once cellphones gained cameras and internet connections, the day of the parasite ended. Big Brother has met his match, in Little Brother. Call it sousvellance, the common man's Panopticon, or massive invasion of privacy if you wish, it is still coming into existence. The government is being watched now by ten million eyes, and more come on it every day.

Parasites cannot survive in the light. They cannot exist in the open. The collective will not allow them to. Change is happening. It's not immediate, and it's not going to be painless, but it is occurring.

And that change is going to force some extremely overdue changes to occur to both the collective and the individual as well.

By the end of this decade, VR will be a reality, the majority of the world will have internet via ultrahighspeed wireless technology, and your entire life will be recorded, by your own choice. Your lifeblog, the culmination of twitter, facebook, and any number of other social apps, will record your every word and deed. It will also record those of everyone you speak too, interact with, and every other aspect of your life. There will be those who refuse to use such technology, but it will be so widespread that no-one will be able to be in public without assuming that their every action is recorded by ten thousand eyes.

And that includes politicians, corporate CEOs, religious leaders, etc.

If you haven't read "The Truth Machine" http://heritagecoins.../images/ttm.doc I recommend you do so. Because in a world where your every action is permanently recorded, you will be accountable for your actions. You will not be able to lie when it is recorded, or steal, or commit fraud. No-one will. Your words and deeds will haunt you. Your "wuffie" will depend on your trustworthiness.

And that same will be true of everyone.

VR will make this inevitable. Your VR lenses will always record your every move, to enable it to track you for VR immersion. Your lifeblog will be your personal record, always there to prove the truth of your actions. NO-ONE WILL EVER BE CONVICTED OF A CRIME THEY DID NOT DO. You will be able to PROVE your innocence.

Simply put, EVERYONE WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE. From the lowest to the highest.

Parasites cannot exist in an environment of complete accountability. Nor do accountable people require 99% of the laws that currently exist solely to ensure accountability. Neither do accountable people require as many police, lawyers, or any of the various methods of FORCE used to make them accountable.

Accountability is the missing factor in most of the worlds problems. It's the reason behind almost all laws, and all regulation. They are attempts to make people accountable for their actions. To answer Max, reciprocal accountability is how you keep a benevolent dictator benevolent. Lazy people? Accountability. Cheats? Accountability. Parasites? Accountability. Gaming the System? Accountability. Frauds? Accountability.

You want your anarcho-capitalist society? Be patient. Because it is coming. It is the inevitable end state of an accountable society.

But be aware that it will also require interim steps which you at present oppose, such as the humanitarian rights. Other social factors as we transition to both an economy of abundance and a society of accountability will make it inevitable that they will indeed become rights. More and more people will become jobless, and more and more people will suffer from poverty, homelessness, and starvation to the point it will either be allow 80% of Americans to die, or supply the basic humanitarian rights. The longer it takes before those rights are granted, the more it will cost. Manufacturing jobs are growing ever more scarce as machines grow ever more efficient. More and more businesses are going to simply cease to exist. The next decade is going to see a technological explosion, and an economic implosion. I dare say that the majority of big corporations that exist today will collapse and go bankrupt over the next decade. New ones will replace them, but they will require fewer people with far more technical skills than most Americans have, and they will be far smaller and more adaptable. Eventually, most people will be self employed, performing whatever job they most want to pursue.

The future doesn't scare me. I have a very good grasp of what the end state is most likely to be. My concern is with the present and the transition from now until then. And my goal is to minimize the cost, not in worthless dross like money or material wealth, but in human lives and suffering.

Take that as you will.

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#214 Alex Libman

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 08:07 PM

Many points you make (ex. Big Brother == dystopia; lots of competing Little Brothers == freedom, transparency / accountability, wide-spread self-employment, etc) come straight from the Anarcho-Capitalist play-book, but then you make some ridiculous claim that we need to have blind faith in the current semi-socialist system to bring this about...

Accountability is the very last thing the people in power want, and they are using massive propaganda hoaxes (ex. wars, manufactured economic collapses, "global warming") to strengthen their grip on ever-more power!

Your "agree with them and then lead them in the wrong direction" tactics are not going to work. The logical fallacies of the system you are trying to defend remain.

#215 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 08:37 PM

Who says those fit to rule are those who're ruling? In order to be elected and to remain in office, charisma goes a long way, it can often go beyond shown performance. Further the requirement of having to appeal in many areas to the masses or risk political suicide hamstrings the ability of the capable few who manage to get close to the top. This problem is further compounded by the fact that funding and lobbying manages to corrupt the decisions even further.


Very astute observation, Cameron!

Allow me to add that the major corporations control the mainstream media.

And far too many parrot the mainstream media's propaganda (e.g. marginalize the Tea Party Movement as being racist and extremist),

#216 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 08:45 PM

If you haven't read "The Truth Machine" http://heritagecoins.../images/ttm.doc I recommend you do so. Because in a world where your every action is permanently recorded, you will be accountable for your actions. You will not be able to lie when it is recorded, or steal, or commit fraud. No-one will. Your words and deeds will haunt you. Your "wuffie" will depend on your trustworthiness.

And that same will be true of everyone.

VR will make this inevitable. Your VR lenses will always record your every move, to enable it to track you for VR immersion. Your lifeblog will be your personal record, always there to prove the truth of your actions. NO-ONE WILL EVER BE CONVICTED OF A CRIME THEY DID NOT DO. You will be able to PROVE your innocence.

Simply put, EVERYONE WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE. From the lowest to the highest.


Great post, valkyrie_ice!

I haven't heard of "The Truth Machine." Can you tell me a little more?

Edit: Note the word "will" in valkyrie_ice's post: "EVERYONE *WILL* BE ACCOUNTABLE."

We have commenced to have an open conflict between ethics and power. I also project that ethics will win.

Edited by bobdrake12, 16 April 2010 - 08:59 PM.


#217 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 08:54 PM

Accountability is the very last thing the people in power want, and they are using massive propaganda hoaxes (ex. wars, manufactured economic collapses, "global warming") to strengthen their grip on ever-more power!


Spot-on Alex!

Most people in power are focused on obtaining and retaining power by whatever means possible.

The third rule of ethics of means and ends is that in war the end justifies almost any means.

Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals p.29


Edited by bobdrake12, 16 April 2010 - 09:01 PM.


#218 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 10:39 PM

Accountability is the very last thing the people in power want, and they are using massive propaganda hoaxes (ex. wars, manufactured economic collapses, "global warming") to strengthen their grip on ever-more power!


Spot-on Alex!

Most people in power are focused on obtaining and retaining power by whatever means possible.

The third rule of ethics of means and ends is that in war the end justifies almost any means.

Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals p.29


And it is a fight they are doomed to lose.

This is what I mean when I say people blind themselves to social aspects of technology. People discount exactly how technology will affect their lives.

For VR to happen, in real time, the entire world will be put under surveillance, but not surveillance from the top down. It's going to creep in from the bottom up. It has started with cellphone cameras. Soon, those cameras will be active full time, through video lenses being used for HUDs, AR overlays, and full VR interactions. You will map and record everything around you in real time. This is required to enable interactive VR and AR. You will exist in both the REAL WORLD, and the MIRROR WORLD of digital data simultaneously. Your VR device will create this world for you using not only the data it obtains through it's inbuilt cameras and sensors, but by combining that data with the various sensors in the environment, including permanently in place devices and the other VR devices around you. Your every action will be recorded, mapped, distributed, and recomposed in the mirror world at the same time as you do those actions in the real world.

And as the world becomes saturated with these devices, and it will, no place on Earth will be free from surveillance.

This is what even the politicians do not understand. EVERYONE is going to be on candid camera, 24/7. And it will happen not because Big Brother wants it to, it will happen because the common person will make it happen by choosing to place themselves under surveillance in order to interact with the virtual world.

And once everyone is under their own personal surveillance, and has a record of their every action, it will inevitably become used as evidence, both to prove innocence and guilt. How long do you think a politician can lie when ten thousand eyes record his every word in permanent form? When his every action and vote is under constant scrutiny? How many bribes do you think he can accept before he is recorded by someone, somewhere, who isn't going to simply ignore it? How long do you think corruption in high places can survive when every single deal cut is splashed across ten million blogs?

Accountability. People seek power to avoid accountability. They hide their actions to avoid accountability. They get away with whatever they can in secret to avoid accountability.

How long could a murderer escape justice when his own gun positively identifies him as the person who pulled the trigger? When no matter where he goes, the moment he uses a VR device, passes in front of a camera or walks down a street, he will be positively identified a thousand different ways?

People who are not accountable for their actions, or who think they will not be held accountable, feel that they are free to do anything, and will inevitably become self serving. It's human nature. The longer they go without getting caught, the worse they become. The system of government is meaningless, as is the economics, lack of accountability by government to the people is the root cause of every form of tyranny.

And never before in the history of mankind, has the technology existed to ensure that accountability is maintained on all levels of society.

Whether Obama is a power seeker, or a saint is meaningless. Whether or not the Corporations bought congress is meaningless. It's the last desperate flailing of unaccountable dinosaurs. Their day is ending swiftly.

The age of accountability is coming. It may take a few years, but nothing I have seen in the past 40 years has significantly slowed it down. Within the next twenty years, everyone, from the lowest social class to the highest, will be accountable for their every action. Within 30, the entire world is likely to have become one single society. The frauds, the panicmongers, the fear merchants, and the tyrants will go the way of the dodo, but unlike it, they will never be resurrected.

And that is only the tiniest tip of the avalanche of change coming

As for the truth machine, it is a fiction tale about a device that can unerringly detect falsehood, even those a person tells themselves, and how it would affect a world in which deception is no longer possible. While the panopticon is not the same technology, it will have the exact same effect.

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 16 April 2010 - 10:46 PM.


#219 Alex Libman

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:04 PM

For VR to happen, in real time, the entire world will be put under surveillance, but not surveillance from the top down.


The government will have the power to make it top-down whenever it wants to for as long as the "divine right of government" delusion persists. They'll just issue themselves a warrant or whatever other ritual the public was brainwashed to respect!


And as the world becomes saturated with these devices, and it will, no place on Earth will be free from surveillance.


C'mon, even the U.S. Congress with its three C-SPAN circus can do things behind closed doors whenever the hell it wants! Tell the public that the terrorists / greedy capitalists / polluters / pedophiles / Mexicans are out the get their children, and they will approve any level of secrecy or censorship the government wants!

This is why Anarcho-Capitalism must come now, before the technology advances too much further, or centralized power will use technology to ensure its power can never be challenged!


How long do you think a politician can lie when ten thousand eyes record his every word in permanent form?


As long as he wants, he just needs to make up lies that people want to hear - positive "rights" and free ice cream for all! They won't use terms like "government control of all media", they'll say "public airwaves", "net neutrality", and the "fairness doctrine" to get the same thing!


As for the truth machine, [...]


There can be no such thing. They'll just program it with erroneous philosophical foundations that most of the public already falls for (ex. "public good", "positive rights", "collective freedom", etc), and it will become a "lie machine" instead, only helping the powerful stay in power while making political dissent completely inconceivable!

#220 bobdrake12

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:15 PM

The age of accountability is coming. It may take a few years, but nothing I have seen in the past 40 years has significantly slowed it down. Within the next twenty years, everyone, from the lowest social class to the highest, will be accountable for their every action. Within 30, the entire world is likely to have become one single society. The frauds, the panicmongers, the fear merchants, and the tyrants will go the way of the dodo, but unlike it, they will never be resurrected.

And that is only the tiniest tip of the avalanche of change coming

As for the truth machine, it is a fiction tale about a device that can unerringly detect falsehood, even those a person tells themselves, and how it would affect a world in which deception is no longer possible. While the panopticon is not the same technology, it will have the exact same effect.


Have you studied the Mayan Calendar, 'valkyrie_ice'?

If not, you might enjoy Ian's video, "Ian Xel Lungold Mayan Calendar: The Evolution Continues":

http://video.google....42549902202239#

http://video.google....22954628722126#

#221 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 11:50 PM

Many points you make (ex. Big Brother == dystopia; lots of competing Little Brothers == freedom, transparency / accountability, wide-spread self-employment, etc) come straight from the Anarcho-Capitalist play-book, but then you make some ridiculous claim that we need to have blind faith in the current semi-socialist system to bring this about...

Accountability is the very last thing the people in power want, and they are using massive propaganda hoaxes (ex. wars, manufactured economic collapses, "global warming") to strengthen their grip on ever-more power!

Your "agree with them and then lead them in the wrong direction" tactics are not going to work. The logical fallacies of the system you are trying to defend remain.



*sigh* I had promised myself I would not reply to you anymore, Alex, but allow me to correct your mistaken impression.

At no point did I ever say we need blind faith in anything. Nothing I say is based on faith. It is based on observation and analysis of reality, and extrapolation of future trends based on that observation and analysis.

I don't have faith in the failure of the parasites, I am watching it happen daily. Tell me, haven't you noticed that since the CRU emails came out, how much less you are hearing about AGW? It's not dead, but it's fading away from that fever pitch it was at just prior to Copenhagen and the CRU emails. It's off the agenda for many nations, and much reduced in importance in the US. Haven't you watched recently as FOX news is starting to abandon and discredit the Tea Party? Why? Because the Tea Party is filled with people who are PARANOID ABOUT SECRET CABALS OF BANKERS CONTROLLING THE WORLD. Now that financial reform is on the table, these people, who Fox did so much to organize and rally against Obama and HCR are now a massive threat to the very people who funded FOX, the RNC, and created that collapse. Do you really expect these people to do a 180 and embrace Wallstreet? They may be easily guided, but ONLY SO LONG AS YOU ARE CATERING TO THEIR WORLDVIEW, and that worldview is that BANKERS ARE THE DEVIL INCARNATE. People who claim that the Tea Party will always vote republican do not understand the paranoid delusions of conspiracy theorists. As a researcher into Atlantis and other historical anomalies, I have been dealing with these people for decades. They will not ever side with anyone who they see as being in league with the conspiracy. If you haven't noticed, even the RNC is losing it's cohesiveness as the politicians begin figuring out that they are in very real jeopardy of losing their positions.

I watch the world Alex. And I understand the world. When I say something about the future it is not wishful thinking. I got over that decades ago. It's my honest evaluation of what will happen based on all of the factors I am aware of. It is re-evaluated daily. And as factors change, so too does my evaluation.

I am quite well aware of why you think as you do. You believe, because like many Americans you have been taught to believe, that anyone can do anything with enough hard work. You embrace the American dream, where a slave can rise via his own effort to become the master. Where anyone can succeed if they only TRY.

But that's a pipedream you were sold. For every Success, there are ten million Failures. But so long as you can believe you can be one of those successes you ignore the failures. As I stated previously, most of the people above water are doing so because they are standing on the heads of those below. Every time you succeed, it's because someone else failed.

Capitalism cannot work any other way. That's simple truth. In a economy of scarcity, even one in which the pie is growing larger slowly, you can only get more if someone else gets less.

But when that success or failure determines whether people live or die, it's a system with far too high a cost. And that is why the humanitarian rights are important. Private enterprise will NEVER be able to create a large enough social net, because it's a losing proposition. Businesses exist to make a profit. That's why decades ago, in response to the massive human suffering caused by the last depression, the American people created the beginnings of the social safety net. Because it HAD TO BE DONE, not as a logical or profitable enterprise, but because it was the ethical thing to do to aid the neediest among us. We the people assumed a shared responsibility to provide for those who were in need.

As Bob said, the War between Ethics and Power has been begun, but he overlooks that this war has been raging for the entirety of history. At it's most basic, Ethics are nothing more than the actions humans take to ensure the common good. They are not dependent on religion, or culture.

And I have said, and will always say, that ethical and moral debates are pointless, because no two people on earth share them in common. On an individual level, ethics are meaningless. Only in the collective whole do ethics have a role, and they inevitably shape the directions in which we develop over the long term. Our entire history is one of ethical development, gradually moving from the destructiveness of individual self servingness to collective beneficial harmony. Our laws have been created to promote ethical behavior, to promote accountability both between individuals, and between individuals and collectives of all sizes.

Simply put, ethics may always lose in the short term, but inevitably, they have always won in the long term. And like everything else, that is also being affected by the accelerating curve.

Be as pessimistic as you wish Alex. But your views are only true of the past. As humanity continues to augment itself, much that once was will cease to exist.

#222 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 12:20 AM

As Bob said, the War between Ethics and Power has been begun, but he overlooks that this war has been raging for the entirety of history.


Ethics now has the tools to defeat parasitical power, valkyrie_ice.

#223 Alex Libman

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 01:21 AM

At no point did I ever say we need blind faith in anything. Nothing I say is based on faith.


You encourage trust in existing government institutions based on a belief that future technology will save you from their tyranny, and not strengthen their tyranny even further, even though they have tremendous amount of control in developing, applying, and regulating this technology.


I don't have faith in the failure of the parasites, I am watching it happen daily.


The parasites just succeeded in convincing the world that free market capitalism caused this economic crisis and that we need more government control in the future, while the complete opposite is true!


Tell me, haven't you noticed that since the CRU emails came out, how much less you are hearing about AGW?


No, I haven't, and they've been able to spin the CRU leak quite well. I don't watch TV anymore, but every time I download a mainstream television show or movie it's environmentalist propaganda in non-stop spin mode! You get Wikipedia to apologize for banning me for calling AGW a hoax a few years ago and then I'll be impressed. ;)


As a researcher into Atlantis and other historical anomalies, I have been dealing with these people for decades.


Um, wow. I hold an agnostic position on a number of government-related conspiracy theories (ex. 9/11) because they are historically and criminologically plausible, but Atlantis... I've never heard a single sane argument on that issue... (But, hey, prove me wrong...)


If you haven't noticed, even the RNC is losing it's cohesiveness as the politicians begin figuring out that they are in very real jeopardy of losing their positions.


C'mon, the only serious Republican dissenter, Ron Paul, only got 7.8% in open primary here in the "free state" of New Hampshire, even though people like me were all but shouting the truth from the rooftops all over the state! I think more people gave up on voting then became libertarians since then. Gulching (ex. agorism, seasteading, etc) is the only solution left.


I watch the world Alex. And I understand the world.


Would you care to post (or link to) a list of specific predictions that you've made for the future?


I am quite well aware of why you think as you do. You believe, because like many Americans you have been taught to believe, that anyone can do anything with enough hard work. You embrace the American dream, where a slave can rise via his own effort to become the master. Where anyone can succeed if they only TRY.


It's not the "American dream", it's the "capitalist dream" - it works in Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile, Estonia, and everywhere else it is tried, to the degree that their governments allow it to work.


But that's a pipedream you were sold. For every Success, there are ten million Failures.


One in ten million? That's only if you define "success" and "failure" as the binary goal of having ~10 billion dollars. Ya gotta feel sorry for "failures" like Steve Jobs, Ross Perot, Ralph Lauren, etc for being a few billion short of "success"... If, on the other hand, you define the difference as being able to make it into the upper-middle class, the odds are fairly reasonable - get a decent college education and you're half-way there.


But when that success or failure determines whether people live or die, it's a system with far too high a cost.


People keep repeating this lie over and over again, but the fact is that economic freedom has never correlated with famines or wide-spread diseases, quite the opposite. You want to see real starvation and human misery, go to the most anti-capitalist country you can find! Highest life expectancy in the world? The same place that's also first in economic freedom - Hong freakin' Kong!


Private enterprise will NEVER be able to create a large enough social net, because it's a losing proposition. Businesses exist to make a profit.


Yes, and in trying to make a profit they have to compete with other businesses, which results in greater productivity and innovation, which is what pushes science and technology forward, creating a positive feedback cycle of economic growth. And some of those profits will inevitably go to charity.


That's why decades ago, in response to the massive human suffering caused by the last depression, the American people created the beginnings of the social safety net.


The government caused that depression, the government prolonged that depression, and the government profited from that depression. See how this works?


Be as pessimistic as you wish Alex.


I'm not pessimistic for myself - I'll have plenty of marshmallows to roast while your world burns to pieces.

#224 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 02:18 AM

The age of accountability is coming. It may take a few years, but nothing I have seen in the past 40 years has significantly slowed it down. Within the next twenty years, everyone, from the lowest social class to the highest, will be accountable for their every action. Within 30, the entire world is likely to have become one single society. The frauds, the panicmongers, the fear merchants, and the tyrants will go the way of the dodo, but unlike it, they will never be resurrected.

And that is only the tiniest tip of the avalanche of change coming

As for the truth machine, it is a fiction tale about a device that can unerringly detect falsehood, even those a person tells themselves, and how it would affect a world in which deception is no longer possible. While the panopticon is not the same technology, it will have the exact same effect.


Have you studied the Mayan Calendar, 'valkyrie_ice'?

If not, you might enjoy Ian's video, "Ian Xel Lungold Mayan Calendar: The Evolution Continues":

http://video.google....42549902202239#

http://video.google....22954628722126#


Interesting, but I believe he goes into new age mysticism about 30 minutes in.

Do not misunderstand me, I have researched magic and mysticism in my time, and know quite well that science does not have all the answers, and that there are curious blind spots where it refuses to look. I became interested in Atlantology more than 30 years ago, and have amassed quite a collection of esoteric knowledge that I have as yet to see explained. However, while it is a fascinating study, it has no bearing on the current trends in technological development which lead to the views I have. I consider it more psychological data towards human nature than as an empirical subject currently capable of scientific observation. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.

I am not a believer in doomsdays prophecies, or in sudden mystical shifts of consciousness. I do not believe in external saviors, be they mystical beings, or aliens. I find most new age theories to be little more than escapist fantasy and all too often closely tied to conspiracy theories.

And Val is fine.


To Alex: Again, I am not asking anyone to have faith in anything. I am merely stating the conclusions my observations and analysis have led me to. I could care less whether you or anyone else believes in my conclusions or not. It is quite obvious that we see far different realities, which is why I stated previously that true communication is impossible.

Nor have I at any point encouraged faith in the existing government. I have stated repeatedly that it is at present controlled by parasites. I have at every stage encouraged peaceful engagement on the part of the public in the legally established procedures to create change in the government away from parasitism, and towards accountability. This will happen eventually regardless of your actions, but I discourage violence because all it will succeed in doing is making the transitional period cost more in human lives and suffering.

#225 JLL

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 08:20 AM

Every time you succeed, it's because someone else failed.

In a economy of scarcity, even one in which the pie is growing larger slowly, you can only get more if someone else gets less.


A common argument, but that's not really the case, is it?

If I grow potatoes and my neighbour has cattle, and I trade a bag of potatoes for one cow, we have both gained. I value a cow more than I do the bag of potatoes (because I have as many potatoes as I need) and he values a bag of potatoes more than a cow (because he has plenty of cattle but no potatoes).

If it was not a win-win scenario, then the voluntary transaction would not happen.

A similar effect is especially true of innovation. If I come up with an invention that gives me more potatoes per acre, then I have more potatoes to trade -- i.e. supply goes up and price goes down. People who want to buy my potatoes can now do so for a cheaper price, and I still make a better profit than before.

Edited by JLL, 17 April 2010 - 08:20 AM.


#226 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 10:32 AM

Every time you succeed, it's because someone else failed.

In a economy of scarcity, even one in which the pie is growing larger slowly, you can only get more if someone else gets less.


A common argument, but that's not really the case, is it?

If I grow potatoes and my neighbour has cattle, and I trade a bag of potatoes for one cow, we have both gained. I value a cow more than I do the bag of potatoes (because I have as many potatoes as I need) and he values a bag of potatoes more than a cow (because he has plenty of cattle but no potatoes).

If it was not a win-win scenario, then the voluntary transaction would not happen.

A similar effect is especially true of innovation. If I come up with an invention that gives me more potatoes per acre, then I have more potatoes to trade -- i.e. supply goes up and price goes down. People who want to buy my potatoes can now do so for a cheaper price, and I still make a better profit than before.


Outstanding, JLL!

Another example: If there is a supposed "scarcity" of food, there is nothing stopping me from starting a small vegetable garden.

#227 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 10:57 AM

Interesting, but I believe he goes into new age mysticism about 30 minutes in.

------ -----

Do not misunderstand me, I have researched magic and mysticism in my time, and know quite well that science does not have all the answers, and that there are curious blind spots where it refuses to look. I became interested in Atlantology more than 30 years ago, and have amassed quite a collection of esoteric knowledge that I have as yet to see explained. However, while it is a fascinating study, it has no bearing on the current trends in technological development which lead to the views I have. I consider it more psychological data towards human nature than as an empirical subject currently capable of scientific observation. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.



valkyrie_ice,

Regarding new age mysticism. I read everything, listen to everybody but believe nothing until I do my own research.

If something works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

I'm not an new ager. But so far Ian has been on target with his projections.

If you've been a member of a secret society, then we probably have a common background regarding previous civilizations and ancient history (specifically Egypt and Sumeria).

Are these subjects covered anywhere on this board?

One of the sciences being relearned from the previous civilization is vibrational healing. Currently, a lot of progressed has been make in this area. I use some of the vibrational healing techniques and the ones I use do work.

Shown below is the Link for History Of The Golden Ages, Volume I by EN-MAR - Steve Omar which provides *some* of the evidence from the previous advanced civilization:

http://obie.homesite...historygold.htm

Edited by bobdrake12, 17 April 2010 - 11:05 AM.


#228 bobdrake12

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 11:56 AM

The government caused that depression, the government prolonged that depression, and the government profited from that depression. See how this works?


Alex,

Have you seen the videos: Monopoly Men and Fall of the Republic?:

http://video.google....ederal reserve#

http://www.youtube.c...U...t=1&index=3

#229 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 05:30 PM

Every time you succeed, it's because someone else failed.

In a economy of scarcity, even one in which the pie is growing larger slowly, you can only get more if someone else gets less.


A common argument, but that's not really the case, is it?

If I grow potatoes and my neighbour has cattle, and I trade a bag of potatoes for one cow, we have both gained. I value a cow more than I do the bag of potatoes (because I have as many potatoes as I need) and he values a bag of potatoes more than a cow (because he has plenty of cattle but no potatoes).

If it was not a win-win scenario, then the voluntary transaction would not happen.

A similar effect is especially true of innovation. If I come up with an invention that gives me more potatoes per acre, then I have more potatoes to trade -- i.e. supply goes up and price goes down. People who want to buy my potatoes can now do so for a cheaper price, and I still make a better profit than before.



Ah, but then your grocer suffers because you are no longer buying from him, the transporter suffers because he is no longer being paid to bring groceries, the distributor suffers because he's no longer distributing, the produce buyer is no longer making money by selling to the distributor, the farmers suffer because you are no longer buying their crops, the oil companies suffer because all those people are no longer buying gas...

I've played this game before JLL. As silly as that chain of logic may sound, it is the PRECISE one used to justify paying farmers not to grow, burn overages, and prevent food supplies from being so abundant they are free. The wonderful capitalistic system at work.

Simply put, we could already have a economy of abundance, but scarcity is artificially manufactured. The parasites at work again.

#230 RighteousReason

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 05:35 PM

Because the Tea Party is filled with people who are PARANOID ABOUT SECRET CABALS OF BANKERS CONTROLLING THE WORLD.

The Tea Party on which planet...?

#231 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 05:38 PM

Interesting, but I believe he goes into new age mysticism about 30 minutes in.

------ -----

Do not misunderstand me, I have researched magic and mysticism in my time, and know quite well that science does not have all the answers, and that there are curious blind spots where it refuses to look. I became interested in Atlantology more than 30 years ago, and have amassed quite a collection of esoteric knowledge that I have as yet to see explained. However, while it is a fascinating study, it has no bearing on the current trends in technological development which lead to the views I have. I consider it more psychological data towards human nature than as an empirical subject currently capable of scientific observation. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.



valkyrie_ice,

Regarding new age mysticism. I read everything, listen to everybody but believe nothing until I do my own research.

If something works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

I'm not an new ager. But so far Ian has been on target with his projections.

If you've been a member of a secret society, then we probably have a common background regarding previous civilizations and ancient history (specifically Egypt and Sumeria).

Are these subjects covered anywhere on this board?

One of the sciences being relearned from the previous civilization is vibrational healing. Currently, a lot of progressed has been make in this area. I use some of the vibrational healing techniques and the ones I use do work.

Shown below is the Link for History Of The Golden Ages, Volume I by EN-MAR - Steve Omar which provides *some* of the evidence from the previous advanced civilization:

http://obie.homesite...historygold.htm



Never been a member of a secret society, but I have read hundreds of books on Atlantology, historical anomalies, and currently possess an e-library of many hundreds of books on esoterica, though I can't claim to have read all of them yet. Collecting is a hobby of mine.

As far as I know, there is no topic on imminst covering them, and it is off topic here, so I will continue this in my reply to your pm.

#232 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 05:46 PM

Because the Tea Party is filled with people who are PARANOID ABOUT SECRET CABALS OF BANKERS CONTROLLING THE WORLD.

The Tea Party on which planet...?



Maybe I should direct you to the forums of my old home town's paper. At present it is saturated with Teabaggers. They run the gamut from those who would agree with your every word to those who are convinced that Obama is a secret agent of the Zionists. The majority of them are conspiracy theorists, all convinced the FED arranged the collapse simply to put Obama into office, turn America into a slave state, and set us up to be slaughtered by the Chinese. Alex would feel right at home there. The one common thread to all of them though is that Goldman Sachs is the biggest culprit behind everything, and that it must BURN!

Sorry, but having actually dealt for over year with teabaggers, I calls em as I sees em.

#233 Alex Libman

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 10:37 PM

Have you seen the videos: Monopoly Men and Fall of the Republic?


Yes, I used to watch all Alex Jones films and some other "kooky" stuff I get from ConCen.org, just for the sake of a balanced mental diet. Being a libertarian means agreeing with just about anybody on some things - when they bash the other ideologies especially. There are some bad things about the American government only the Soviet government will tell you the truth about, and vice versa. A lot of conspiracy theories are right about the evils of government, they just attribute it to some vague group of villains, real or imagined, and not the governments themselves as an institution.

I stopped watching recently because I need to stop wasting my life on that kind of stuff - even this forum is a guilty pleasure because I end up ranting about philosophy and politics all the time. Alex Jones and even the less kooky libertarian radio / media certainly do make one's bunker mentality worse, especially if you're a serious tax resister (though I'm still debating over how far I'm willing to go). Giving up tax resistance ain't easy - feels like you're throwing all your values down the toilet... It's an addiction of sorts...


Ah, but then your grocer suffers because you are no longer buying from him [...]


You have no obligation to fulfill every potential economic scenario under which someone might have benefited! People only have negative Rights (not to be aggressed against), not any alleged positive "rights" to be loved, respected, serviced, and traded with! If you want to do business with someone, you have to earn it by offering them something of value and persuading them without using violence.


Simply put, we could already have a economy of abundance, but scarcity is artificially manufactured. The parasites at work again.


Well, with bright minds like yours working to legitimize the specific parasites (or at least misdirect their critics), no wonder they are succeeding! :)


[...] Alex would feel right at home there. [...]


Um, I've never been to a "Tea Party" or any other demonstration before. I can't quite decide which sign I should bring to feel most at home among them... "Open All Borders"? "Privatize Israel"? "Legalize Child Porn"? "Polygamy Ban == Socialism"? "Pay Taxes - To Your Parents"? "Free Ossetia"? "Reagan Was a Commie"? "Let Parents Blind Their Children"? "Legalize Kitten Blendering"? "Ron Paul: the Judas Goat of Liberty"? Posted Image

#234 DairyProducts

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 01:58 AM

It's not the "American dream", it's the "capitalist dream" - it works in Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile, Estonia, and everywhere else it is tried, to the degree that their governments allow it to work.

For some reason, people who say Singapore is a capitalist's paradise seem to overlook how much of a role government has had in the success of the city's economy.
One only needs to look to wikipedia to find this out (from http://en.wikipedia...._of_Singapore):

"While government intervention in the market is kept at a minimum, the state controls and owns firms that comprise at least 60% of the GDP through government entities such as the sovereign wealth fund Temasek."

That's not the the government allowing it to work, that's the government making it work (in the case of Singapore.)

#235 Alex Libman

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 02:50 AM

I never said that Singapore was a 100% capitalist utopia, but what makes it different is that it isn't a centrally-controlled empire that spread itself by the sword "from sea to shining sea". It is a small island that was bought by a corporation (a government-granted monopoly, and it was bought from another government, but that was as capitalist as it got in those days). A large number of people have chosen to move to Singapore since then for the economic opportunities it provides them, and those people are free to leave at any time. (Have you ever tried getting rid of a U.S. citizenship, on the other hand? You "owe" them "taxes" no matter where in the world you are!) So if the world was divided into thousands of sovereign little Singapores all competing with each-other, the world would be a much better place.

When governments compete - you win! (Unless you're a government bureaucrat or a welfare freeloader, of course, but there will still be some people willing to live in a welfare state for you to mooch off, and then there's private charity as well.)

#236 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 05:04 AM

It's not the "American dream", it's the "capitalist dream" - it works in Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile, Estonia, and everywhere else it is tried, to the degree that their governments allow it to work.


So you've stopped mentioning Iceland now, eh Alex?

#237 Alex Libman

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 05:32 AM

According to this forum's advanced search feature, I've mentioned Iceland five times (1,2,3,4,5) before now (including when quoting others). Three of those times was me pointing out the medieval Iceland was NOT an example of Anarcho-Capitalism, which I see as a (post)modern high-tech phenomenon. The fourth mention of Iceland was over its high GDP per capita being inflated by natural resources, and the last mention was about "innovation performance" rankings (though still slightly below USA).

Of the four countries I've listed in the post you've quoted, Hong Kong and Singapore rank #1 and #2 in economic freedom, which is what I was talking about in that post, and Chile (#5) and Estonia (#11) were recent gainers and top performers in Latim America and Eastern Europe respectively. Iceland currently ranks #24 on that list, so if I wanted to pick a pro-market reform champion for Western Europe it would be Ireland (#7).

Your reading comprehension skills... Work on them.

#238 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:13 AM

Yes, I was referring to the one where you mentioned innovation performance. It gave me a good chuckle when you were holding them up as among the best places in Europe, seeing as they are in terrible shape and Norway, the most social democratic country, is considering bailing them out.

I respect Hong Kong's model quite a bit, but the reason they are successful is precisely because they have democratic control of land and responsible regulations to promote access to information and so on. My ideal society given human nature as it actually exists and our current state of technology would be a Georgist taxation and regulatory model, a strong jeffersonian bill of rights, and some other policies to enhance leisure, fund open science, promote sane community development, and account for externalities. The Scandinavian countries are probably among the most pleasant places to live out of anywhere, and that is the real measure of success, so the Georgist model isn't the most essential ingredient. Having a high GDP means nothing if you live in a dreary place.

Will you agree with me that blindly taking steps down the road of deregulation is a BAD IDEA. Regulations do not exist in a vacuum, but very often form an interlocking system. Furthermore, the economy has usually grown up around said regulations, and tearing them down quickly can cause catastrophic damage. Your absolutist statements are just as disconnected from reality and utopian as any socialist. Blindly stripping down a working existing order for one that is incredibly liable to become corrupted as a result of wealth inequalities is just plain stupid.

Also, please pay your f**kin taxes.... jeesh you moron. Despite how annoying you are, I think you probably have a lot to offer, but not if you're in prison. Do you understand a single thing about utilitarianism?

Edited by progressive, 19 April 2010 - 08:22 AM.


#239 JLL

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:39 AM

Ah, but then your grocer suffers because you are no longer buying from him, the transporter suffers because he is no longer being paid to bring groceries, the distributor suffers because he's no longer distributing, the produce buyer is no longer making money by selling to the distributor, the farmers suffer because you are no longer buying their crops, the oil companies suffer because all those people are no longer buying gas...


I think your logic is a bit flawed here. Of course, when I come up with an invention that makes me a better potato salesman than my competitors, I make more profits than them, and in a way they have indeed suffered a loss.

In the long run, however, my invention will benefit everyone -- because everyone is also a consumer. It is because of the fact that no one wants to suffer losses and everyone aims to make a profit that inventions happen in the first place, and it is because of inventions that I can start selling my potatoes for a cheaper price than my competitors. This benefits everyone; even the grocer, although at first he will only see the immediate effect of me not buying from him.

You can also think of it from another angle: If your logic was correct, then it would follow that the less competition we have, and thus the less innovation, the better off everyone is. But clearly this is not true. People were much poorer in earlier times. The fact that we can own cell phones and computers is proof that innovation and competition benefit everyone.

I've played this game before JLL. As silly as that chain of logic may sound, it is the PRECISE one used to justify paying farmers not to grow, burn overages, and prevent food supplies from being so abundant they are free. The wonderful capitalistic system at work.


I know those arguments are used for protectionism etc. but that is not the capitalistic system at work, that is the socialist/corporatist system at work. I mean, you're talking about central planning here -- an idea essential to socialism. If government did not dictate it, what kind of farmer would burn the fruits of his own labor?

#240 RighteousReason

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 12:45 PM

Obama: Tea Partiers Should Thank Me for Tax Breaks


Mr. Obama admitted to his supporters that the anti-tax rallies "amused" him.

The president went over the laundry list of tax cuts instituted in Washington over the past year.

"In all, we passed 25 different tax cuts last year. And one thing we haven't done is raise income taxes on families making less than $250,000 a year -- another promise that we kept," he told supporters at the Arsht Center for the Performing Arts. "So I've been a little amused over the last couple of days where people have been having these rallies about taxes. You would think they would be saying thank you."

http://www.cbsnews.c...677-503544.html



You know I bet King George felt exactly the same the first time around.



On April 15, thousands of Americans will gather for modern day tea parties, proudly named after the Boston Tea Party of 1773. Like our revolutionary ancestors, we are protesting against growing government power, a government that increasingly oppresses its citizens instead of protecting them.

But what are we fighting for? Have we earned the right to call our protests by the same name the Founding Fathers used? Believe me, they understood exactly what they were fighting for. When those Bostonians boarded the cargo ship, Dartmouth, and hurled chests of tea into the ocean, they were not just mad about high taxes. In fact, the Tea Act that inspired the protest had actually lowered the tea tax on the colonies.

No, the colonists were driven by a certain view of the proper purpose of government, which the Tea Act repudiated. That view, which would reach its full expression in the Declaration of Independence, was that the role of government is to protect individual rights--to protect the sovereign individual’s right to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness.

But over the past two centuries, the ideal of individual rights has all but disappeared from public discourse. In its absence has emerged today's massive regulatory-welfare state, which taxes away nearly half our income, tells us what medicines we can take, what kind of light bulbs to buy, and is rapidly consolidating control over America’s banks, insurance companies, and industrial giants like General Motors.

What happened? Why did we abandon the American ideal? Above all, because the ideal lacked a moral defense.

To uphold the individual's political right to pursue his own happiness, we must recognize the individual's moral right to pursue his own happiness. But just try and say such a thing, and the voices will come from all sides--that’s selfish. "It's selfish to want to plan for your own retirement--what about those who aren't responsible enough to save? It's selfish to oppose bailouts for struggling homebuyers--why should they have to move? It's selfish to earn and keep a lot of money for yourself--what about those struggling to make ends meet?"

And it's all true: the pursuit of happiness is selfish. That’s why you need the individual freedom of a capitalist system--to pursue your own interests, to act on your own judgment, to make your own life the best it can be. That’s why you need to crusade for individual rights, not just against the latest Washington power grab. To mount such a crusade requires more than protest slogans and picket signs. You must resolve to morally defend the individual's right to live for his own sake, not as a servant of society. So long as you are willing to concede that self-interest and the profit motive are immoral, and that self-sacrifice for the "common good" is a moral ideal, you will continue to see freedom diminish and prosperity decline.

In my judgment the only philosopher to provide such a moral defense of capitalism is Ayn Rand, the author of Atlas Shrugged and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. So I'll close with her words:

"The world crisis of today is a moral crisis--and nothing less than a moral revolution can resolve it: a moral revolution to sanction and complete the political achievement of the American revolution. . . . [You] must fight for capitalism, not as a 'practical' issue, not as an economic issue, but, with the most righteous pride, as a moral issue. That is what capitalism deserves, and nothing less will save it."

http://www.aynrand.o...topic_tea_party




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