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#31 russianBEAR

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 12:51 PM

I personally got off 300 mg effexor but I switched to natural because I didn't want long term side effects. Fortunately I got only one electric shock in my spine. Some people have a much harder time with multiple electric shocks.

You should get slowly off paxil to limit withdrawal.

After a couple of days if you feel bad you can take rhodiola rosea (I think it's one of the best) which is what I take since 5 years and you can combine it with other product if you need more. With rhodiola you get only good side effects like more sex power and energy.

Or how about: "in a few days if you feel bad, you accept that this is a price to pay for many days of a semi-blissful state where you don't give a fuck and become totally vegetated". 

#32 Animal

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 01:29 PM

I personally got off 300 mg effexor but I switched to natural because I didn't want long term side effects. Fortunately I got only one electric shock in my spine. Some people have a much harder time with multiple electric shocks.

You should get slowly off paxil to limit withdrawal.

After a couple of days if you feel bad you can take rhodiola rosea (I think it's one of the best) which is what I take since 5 years and you can combine it with other product if you need more. With rhodiola you get only good side effects like more sex power and energy.

Or how about: "in a few days if you feel bad, you accept that this is a price to pay for many days of a semi-blissful state where you don't give a fuck and become totally vegetated". 


You really think antidepressants put you in a 'semi-blissful' state? What have you been taking!?

Fuck paying a price, if you can alleviate your suffering you should do it. Reality doesn't revolve around some mystical karma system where every good feeling has to balance with a bad one. I say nature is flawed, and being a slave to your neurochemistry is for moralistic fools.

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#33 russianBEAR

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 02:09 PM

I personally got off 300 mg effexor but I switched to natural because I didn't want long term side effects. Fortunately I got only one electric shock in my spine. Some people have a much harder time with multiple electric shocks.

You should get slowly off paxil to limit withdrawal.

After a couple of days if you feel bad you can take rhodiola rosea (I think it's one of the best) which is what I take since 5 years and you can combine it with other product if you need more. With rhodiola you get only good side effects like more sex power and energy.

Or how about: "in a few days if you feel bad, you accept that this is a price to pay for many days of a semi-blissful state where you don't give a fuck and become totally vegetated". 


You really think antidepressants put you in a 'semi-blissful' state? What have you been taking!?

Fuck paying a price, if you can alleviate your suffering you should do it. Reality doesn't revolve around some mystical karma system where every good feeling has to balance with a bad one. I say nature is flawed, and being a slave to your neurochemistry is for moralistic fools.

I'm pretty sure people taking antidepressants are the ones who are slaves to their neurochemistry :) That "fuck paying a price" mentality is a childish way to avoid real pain that comes with: growing up, facing difficult times, etc. People nowadays just don't wanna accept it at all, and avoid it at all costs through self-denial, medication, etc. But it will catch up to you eventually, even if you're denying it, your quality of life (as evidenced by the initial post in the thread) isn't very good.

I have no idea where you got Karma from, I don't believe in anything like that at all, I'm not Buddhist.

Better off facing up and being better for it in the long run - you can't just coast through life with everything being just great all the time, but many people think they can. The pain doesn't last forever either, and every human being is capable of determining where it comes from through honest critical scrutiny and some help.

The cases where antidepressants are really needed (hereditary or major psychological trauma) are in the minority. I don't know anyone who they've helped become a better person or lead a better quality of life.

They do put you in a blissful state - because you don't give a damn about anything really. You're not supposed to always be happy and loaded with serotonin - you're supposed to seek out pleasure through various stimuli technically - and if you're already satisfied why do anything but coast ? A very bad way to go through life, and it changes you brain's chemistry in the long run. I guess not being able to have sex is no problem either right, as long as you're not suffering from "anxiety" and "depression"

Now I say Fuck All That...

Edited by russianBEAR, 31 March 2010 - 02:13 PM.


#34 Animal

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 04:37 PM

Well you continue being a martyr to your "real pain" ideal, and the rest of us will attempt to alleviate our suffering using any means possible. Then again, the amount of substances you've consumed in the past mean your argument is absolute hypocrisy. You're regularly on psychoactives, is the cannabis just your childish way of avoiding 'real pain'? Haha, are you projecting? You obviously don't know many people if you've never met anyone who antidepressants have helped. I know plenty, but I know lots of people so maybe you're just insular.

If you relate a blissful state to not giving a damn about anything then I pity your attitude towards life. Apathy is anything but blissful, and if you had actually experienced it you would know that. Seems your bigotry against antidepressants is based on complete ignorance of the reality of their use.

Somehow I don't expect someone suffering from severe anxiety and depression is going to be having much sex anyway, regardless, SSRI's don't always have that side-effect, and often it is manageable. They did not affect my sexual functioning, but then again I was on a low dose.

#35 russianBEAR

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 05:41 PM

I'm no martyr, but an imperfect human being just like the rest. Also, as you duly noted I didn't arrive at my conclusion by being a straight-edge my whole life - I saw the pitfalls for myself and unfortunately haven't yet been able (or willing) to completely eliminate my habits, despite an improved perspective. Yet I'm plugging along at the path I described, with tons of failures, and some success but plenty of upside. And every time the depression and pain seems unbearable because you're trying to re-train yourself to become better, it is always followed by a more positive outlook on yourself and the world once you break through it. That state, unlike medication, becomes permanent - you will not sink below it on your worst day or your worst crash. 

Also, let's get more specific about antidepressants helping people - are these people now completely free from any and all medication, or are they still taking the said pills ? The way I look at it, if they're still on them then what's the difference between that and illicit forms of chemical dependence ?

Most people, the vast majority, aren't born dysfunctional. They become dysfunctional due to bad training and possibly socioeconomic conditions. If you have to take pills to feel normal you are dysfunctional. I am dysfunctional too in that way.

Lately I chose a different path, because depression, anxiety, etc. all have causes. There's so much unknown about the subconcsious mind and the kind of messages it gathers, and it gets even more complex when you have to think about possibly traumatic events that may have happened when you were too young to be able to handle them pscyhologically, or a myriad of other factors. If you're feeling a certain way you gotta think about why that is, and try to analyz this emotion and get comfortable with yourself, and accept that you feel this way.

Seems that you have some stereotype of an "ideal human being" which should always feel good no matter what, and if you're not meeting that ideal then you should try, whatever the cause.

Are you really that afraid of anxious and depressing thoughts that you can't handle them ? I do some great soul searching when I feel like I wanna hang myself in the bathroom while shooting my brains out. Then you come back stronger :) So much of these problems are in people's heads because they put too much stake in their emotional state at the time. Then it becomes a habit and that's not good I can tell you that :)

#36 alpha2A

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 06:13 PM

NOTE: this is a commentary on some available psychopharmacological options especially with regard to depression.  It is hardly an appropriate response to the threadstarter, who may only need to quit Paxil in order to regain his energy and clear his brain fog.  Rather, this is in response to those posts basically amounting to "antidepressants are useless and/or unnecessary" and focusses on shedding light onto drugs that are unlikely to be considered as first-line treatments for depression.  I might add that I tried paroxetine (Paxil or Seroxat) myself many years ago and to this day it remains the most amotivational, passivising substance I've ever experienced, and I've tried a lot.  The worst periods of depression made me spend almost 70% of the time in bed, but paroxetine caused me to only get out of the bed to eat, and that was at a time that I was in a considerably better shape.




Chronic depressive states don't resolve on their own, so some kind of treatment is necessary in order to avoid a lifetime of misery or a premature death by suicide. Considering the risks of electroconvulsive treatment or psychosurgery, medication would seem the treatment of choice. Medications are not limited to mass-market pharmaceutical products, but may include anything from herbs to classic street drugs and research chemicals.



Serotonin reuptake inhibitors do appear to work for some people, especially those who have a problem with emotional stability or persistent negative emotions. On the other hand, they do little for anergic states where motivation and energy is lacking, and indeed, they can aggravate such conditions by worsening the apathy via the inhibitory effects that some serotonin receptors exert on the dopaminergic system.

Fortunately, serotonin reuptake inhibitors are not the only drugs available. It is ironic to note that of the neuroleptics, the most selective dopamine D2/D3-antagonists are the most beneficial with regard to motivation and initiative. More specifically, I'm referring to sulpiride and amisulpride at low doses. Indeed, there are studies suggesting that amisulpride can rival amineptine, the selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor that was withdrawn from the market for its abuse potential. The classic flupenthixol and the more recent and expensive aripiprazole are other choices among antipsychtoics that can be useful in depression, again in modest doses.

In moderation, stimulants like methylphenidate and modafinil are useful for rapidly boosting self-confidence, eloquence, coordination, memory, alertness and some other abilities, for example, this could not have been written without them. However, care must be taken in selecting a stimulant as the use of powerful neurotransmitter release inducing substances such as dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine has been associated with neurotoxicity, resulting in moderately severe dopamine deficits. Meanwhile, dopamine reuptake inhibitors are free from such toxicity and indeed, are some of the most potent neuroprotective substances in some models of Parkinson's disease, by prevention of uptake of neurotoxins into nerve terminals. Also, due to the adrenergic properties of most stimulants, adverse effects such as nervousness, and sweaty and cold distal extremities can be observed, especially in the beginning of treatment or when the dose is excessive.. The wakefulness enhancing property of stimulants can back-fire in the form of insomnia if the drug is taken too late in the day.

If the dietary restrictions are acceptable, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) can be powerful and appropriate choices for one's antidepressant needs. Their combination with stimulants is usually described as a recipe for disaster, but when MAOI monotherapy has proven insufficient and caution is observed, the augmentation with a stimulant can be an excellent way to boost efficacy (the combination wth serotonergic drugs, however, is hardly ever advisable). A distinction must be made between the hydrazine-based MAOIs and others, as the former also have GABAergic properties and are prone to stimulate appetite and give rise to obesity. Although the GABAergic property of for example phenelzine can be beneficial in states of anxiety, cleaner agents are usually preferable. Tranylcypromine, and in higher doses, selegiline and rasagiline, are non-hydrazine-based MAOIs with a more favourable adverse effect profile.

Even opiods can play a role as useful psychopharmacological tools, as they have powerful antidepressive, anxiolytic and antipsychotic properties. They produce somnolence initially, but within days of continued use, one can often observe a stimulating effect with enhanced motivation and energy. For example, I know of a case of chronic depression where long term methylphenidate could be terminated after initiation of morphine. While opioids are best reserved for selected, treatment-resistant cases, contemporary society is unfairly prejudiced to this class of drugs - mainly due to the perceived addiction potential or due to faulty comparisons with more deleterious substances such as alcohol. Addiction to opioids does not necessarily take place more readily than with alcohol, barbiturates and benzodiazepines, and unlike the latter three, opioids don't cloud the intellect or impair judgement and their withdrawal syndrome, while unpleasant, is not life threatening and can be mitigated with alpha2-adrenergics, baclofen (and thus phenibut) and other agents. Furthermore, not all opioids are alike, but there are differences in their duration of action and receptor-binding profiles. For example, the dysphoriant, psychotomimetic, dopamine-downregulating kappa-opioid receptor is stimulated by butorphanol but blocked by buprenorphine, which is incidentally one of my favourite smart drugs, as it not only improves working memory, but combines synergistically with stimulants and aids in weight loss; alas I must admit that it is devoid of analgesic effect, unlike paracetamol or ibuprofen. There is also great inter-individual variation with opioids, and while it is well known that a substantial percentage of users lose control of their consumption and become hopelessly addicted, it is also true that another substantial percentage of users dislike the opioid experience so much that they prefer to have pain rather than take an adequate dose of narcotic painkillers. Still the greatest problem of all is likely to be the acquisition of these remedies.

Although tolerance is most well know in association with opioids, stimulants and other "abusables", it also occurs with other agents. For example, while buprenorphine produced little tolerance and no dependence after months of daily intake, the most rapid development of tolerance I've seen was with antipsychotics and pramipexole, which is a dopamine D3/D2-receptor direct agonist used primarily in the treatment of Parkinson's disease. To be fair, on the other hand, one should consider that pramipexole and another dopamine direct agonist, ropinirole, have shown remarkable anti-anhedonic potential; and in my case, pramipexole was the only, briefly effective relief from anhedonia encountered since the beginning of my depressive illness in the previous millennium. Indeed, even in the severe dopaminergic deficit of Parkinson's disease, dopamine agonists have occasionally proven too powerfully anti-anhedonic, producing behaviours of compulsive and pathological pursuit of pleasaures such as gambling, sex and food.

In summary, the growing psychopharmacological armamentarium includes a selectioon of vastly diverse tools, none of which are without either benefits or risks and disadvantages. It's best if one can live a healthy life without them, but it's worse to suffer merely for lack of information on available options, or for fear of what people would say if they knew which tools you were using.

Edited by alpha2A, 31 March 2010 - 07:10 PM.


#37 xdopamine

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 06:56 PM

Even opiods can play a role as useful psychopharmacological tools, as they have powerful antidepressive, anxiolytic and antipsychotic properties.


I second that. Even a very small dose (25mg) of Tilidine virtually resolves my depression for me. I fucking hate all the prejudice about opioids. Opioids are a very powerful tool and it is sad to see treatment-resistant people struggling with SSRIs where a small dose of opioids would bring relief. Of course it is naive to neglect the abuse potential/risk of addiction but is also naive to completely deny opioids in case of depressions.

Edited by xdopamine, 31 March 2010 - 06:57 PM.


#38 outsider

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:09 AM

found a good article on adaptogens- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptogen anyone here take these?


Of course, adaptogens put you above your stadard baseline, makes you stronger against deseases, give you vitality, detoxify your body etc. They are great tools. You are what you eat, if you eat shit, that's what you are going to be, if you eat high quality "food" like adaptogens, you are going to be better.

Of course also you are what you think.

I got this below from a site a couple of years ago:

"For Those on an Evolving Spiritual Path

Tonic herbalism was developed to its most profound level under the influence of Daoist and Buddhist masters. These spiritual paths took full advantage of the tonic herbs. Much of the knowledge we have gained has come to us through these traditions. The greatest herbalists in China’s history were deeply spiritual men and women. Virtually all spiritual seekers in China, Tibet, Korea and Japan used (and continue to use) tonic herbs."

#39 Logan

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:43 AM

Paxil is one of the worst SSRIs IMO. It turned me into a zombie for 2 weeks.

You may want to consider a good SJW brand. I also think Rhodiola is a good idea. I really liked New Chapter's Rhodiola. At least these are better natural alternatives to powerful drugs like SSRIs. I'm not sure if they will have an effect on development or not.

I would take fish oil, eat really good, and exercise 4 to 5 days a week. And definitely get the hell off Paxil and find a new doctor that knows what the hell they are doing and listens to you.

SSRIs are far from perfect medications but I experienced many good productive years on 2 of them, Prozac and Zoloft. Sometimes antidepressants are a necessary evil. Better than being miserable all the time, or even half the time for that matter. I do think that antidepressants should be used as a last resort, especially in young people that are still developing.

Edited by morganator, 01 April 2010 - 09:47 AM.


#40 russianBEAR

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 07:47 PM

 I love how naive some people are on here. Small doses of opioids for depression ? Really ? I am seriously willing to bet money that in six months your micro doses would evolve into serious doses and you'll be hooked and doing stuff junkies do. There's a reason there's prejudice against opioids and a very good one at that. If you don't up the dosage and just do opioids occasionally, say hello to the deepest, most hellish depression originating from opioid use. The only thing that cures is is more opioids...don't think for a second that you can let the devil into your brain and have control over it.

Seriously that is some outrageous shit I still can't believe I read - opioids are associated with junkies and prescription addicts for a reason - you will be lying and stealing in no time.

The only real use they have is when you're in ridiculous pain physically - as soon as you start using them for "mental pain" say hello to addiction and dependence.

I mean...sure it helps the symptoms...but at least don't lie to yourself about the fact that you're becoming a junkie :) As long as you're honest I say take what you want to, but a lot of people seem to think they can have their cake and eat it too. Never works like that.

Edited by russianBEAR, 01 April 2010 - 07:51 PM.


#41 The Immortalist

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 03:43 AM

I've been off paxil for 4 days now. I don't seem to be getting any negative withdrawal sympomes or anything. If anything I feel much better.

#42 outsider

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:25 AM

 I love how naive some people are on here. Small doses of opioids for depression ? Really ? I am seriously willing to bet money that in six months your micro doses would evolve into serious doses and you'll be hooked and doing stuff junkies do. There's a reason there's prejudice against opioids and a very good one at that. If you don't up the dosage and just do opioids occasionally, say hello to the deepest, most hellish depression originating from opioid use. The only thing that cures is is more opioids...don't think for a second that you can let the devil into your brain and have control over it.

Seriously that is some outrageous shit I still can't believe I read - opioids are associated with junkies and prescription addicts for a reason - you will be lying and stealing in no time.

The only real use they have is when you're in ridiculous pain physically - as soon as you start using them for "mental pain" say hello to addiction and dependence.

I mean...sure it helps the symptoms...but at least don't lie to yourself about the fact that you're becoming a junkie :|? As long as you're honest I say take what you want to, but a lot of people seem to think they can have their cake and eat it too. Never works like that.



Ok now you got me. So if we follow your logic we should stop drinking because we are all ending up in the AA. 12 millions americans are destroying their lives because they are alcoholics. I have no problem with alcohol.

Nicotine is more addictive than heroine but I have been an occasional smoker for 15 years and I haven't smoked since two months. My father smokes cigaret when family are visiting. He has been doing that for years.

Your logic is based on a society belief system.

Some people will hook on something and destroy their live, there is definitly a chance that it might happen.

I have been "hooked" on OCD but I found different ways to completely eliminate those compulsions out of my life. I admit it has been very very difficult. But I got help and I also trained my mind.

Many many, people are completely addicted on Internet sex they spend hours and hours and are destroying their mariage but you ultimately have to deal with it. Forget it, the government won't remove sex on the net.

You have to use great moderation when you take something that is very addictive. For exemple I don't smoke more than once every two weeks. Max.

Edited by outsider, 02 April 2010 - 08:34 AM.


#43 outsider

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:42 AM

I've been off paxil for 4 days now. I don't seem to be getting any negative withdrawal sympomes or anything. If anything I feel much better.



This is great. Keep us updated.

#44 xdopamine

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 12:36 PM

I've been off paxil for 4 days now. I don't seem to be getting any negative withdrawal sympomes or anything.


I thought the same when I stopped Citalopram. No withdrawal symptoms at all for the first days but then after 5-6 days all the withdrawal symptoms suddenly kicked in.

#45 russianBEAR

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:12 PM

Benzos love doin that to you too...do them for a while...get off...everything is gravy, you're just as calm...who needs benzos at all? Then a week or so later, once at least some of it is metabolized, people start going kinda bonkers, each in their own unique way. 

Don't let it catch you off-guard and you should be just fine, however, since my understanding is that Paxil withdrawals aren't as bad as benzos, but I remember reading a lot of "trip reports" on erowid which specifically mentioned a delay.

Some people get NO withdrawals from certain substances, that's very very rare though.

#46 russianBEAR

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 09:22 PM

 I love how naive some people are on here. Small doses of opioids for depression ? Really ? I am seriously willing to bet money that in six months your micro doses would evolve into serious doses and you'll be hooked and doing stuff junkies do. There's a reason there's prejudice against opioids and a very good one at that. If you don't up the dosage and just do opioids occasionally, say hello to the deepest, most hellish depression originating from opioid use. The only thing that cures is is more opioids...don't think for a second that you can let the devil into your brain and have control over it.

Seriously that is some outrageous shit I still can't believe I read - opioids are associated with junkies and prescription addicts for a reason - you will be lying and stealing in no time.

The only real use they have is when you're in ridiculous pain physically - as soon as you start using them for "mental pain" say hello to addiction and dependence.

I mean...sure it helps the symptoms...but at least don't lie to yourself about the fact that you're becoming a junkie :|? As long as you're honest I say take what you want to, but a lot of people seem to think they can have their cake and eat it too. Never works like that.



Ok now you got me. So if we follow your logic we should stop drinking because we are all ending up in the AA. 12 millions americans are destroying their lives because they are alcoholics. I have no problem with alcohol.

Nicotine is more addictive than heroine but I have been an occasional smoker for 15 years and I haven't smoked since two months. My father smokes cigaret when family are visiting. He has been doing that for years.

Your logic is based on a society belief system.

Some people will hook on something and destroy their live, there is definitly a chance that it might happen.

I have been "hooked" on OCD but I found different ways to completely eliminate those compulsions out of my life. I admit it has been very very difficult. But I got help and I also trained my mind.

Many many, people are completely addicted on Internet sex they spend hours and hours and are destroying their mariage but you ultimately have to deal with it. Forget it, the government won't remove sex on the net.

You have to use great moderation when you take something that is very addictive. For exemple I don't smoke more than once every two weeks. Max.


My logic is based on watching me lie to my own self constantly and being convinced that I've got the moderation part under control. If my close friends didn't notice and give me a good going-over about it, I'd probably still be thinkin I'm moderating substances just great :) 

We've had a very very very long discussion about "moderation in the use of opiates" on a now-defunct druggie forum. Hundreds of current and former users (not all of them junkies, many are successful in life) all agreed that there's not such thing. The person who started the thread was doing opiates once or month or less and he had everything in his life, so he thought if you have other things to "fill the void", it's no problem. Three months later he comes back to the thread citing "severe, crippling, debilitating depression for no reason". Guess what, he was still doin it once a month at the most...the only cure for his depression? A nice shot of heroin/fentanyl/whoknowsexactlybutitwasanopioid....You still fuck up your reward centers like that, just takes longer. I wish I could find that and translate for yall :(

Even if you do it once a month, guess what, once a month is still addiction - a repetitive behavior.

Also, opiates are not nicotine or alcohol or even internet sex, you're fuckin with the granddaddy of addiction. My question is - do you really want to ? Because it will always get the best of you, so you either have to quit or succumb.

You're not going to have your cake and eat it too with opiates - there's not a chance in hell.

You know, I always used to think, oh people are so fuckin prejudiced against this and that...then after a while I saw that I'm not some genius among the dumb masses, because the prejudice is there for a reason. Another problem is when you're on the drugs, they promote themselves through your brain, so you get defensive when people call you out on doing it, and you deny you have a problem, and you promote it to others because you feel good.

That's just how it works - drugs need a piece of meat to advertise themselves. You take em and you become that billboard. 

#47 outsider

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 08:13 AM

 I love how naive some people are on here. Small doses of opioids for depression ? Really ? I am seriously willing to bet money that in six months your micro doses would evolve into serious doses and you'll be hooked and doing stuff junkies do. There's a reason there's prejudice against opioids and a very good one at that. If you don't up the dosage and just do opioids occasionally, say hello to the deepest, most hellish depression originating from opioid use. The only thing that cures is is more opioids...don't think for a second that you can let the devil into your brain and have control over it.

Seriously that is some outrageous shit I still can't believe I read - opioids are associated with junkies and prescription addicts for a reason - you will be lying and stealing in no time.

The only real use they have is when you're in ridiculous pain physically - as soon as you start using them for "mental pain" say hello to addiction and dependence.

I mean...sure it helps the symptoms...but at least don't lie to yourself about the fact that you're becoming a junkie ;) As long as you're honest I say take what you want to, but a lot of people seem to think they can have their cake and eat it too. Never works like that.



Ok now you got me. So if we follow your logic we should stop drinking because we are all ending up in the AA. 12 millions americans are destroying their lives because they are alcoholics. I have no problem with alcohol.

Nicotine is more addictive than heroine but I have been an occasional smoker for 15 years and I haven't smoked since two months. My father smokes cigaret when family are visiting. He has been doing that for years.

Your logic is based on a society belief system.

Some people will hook on something and destroy their live, there is definitly a chance that it might happen.

I have been "hooked" on OCD but I found different ways to completely eliminate those compulsions out of my life. I admit it has been very very difficult. But I got help and I also trained my mind.

Many many, people are completely addicted on Internet sex they spend hours and hours and are destroying their mariage but you ultimately have to deal with it. Forget it, the government won't remove sex on the net.

You have to use great moderation when you take something that is very addictive. For exemple I don't smoke more than once every two weeks. Max.


My logic is based on watching me lie to my own self constantly and being convinced that I've got the moderation part under control. If my close friends didn't notice and give me a good going-over about it, I'd probably still be thinkin I'm moderating substances just great :) 

We've had a very very very long discussion about "moderation in the use of opiates" on a now-defunct druggie forum. Hundreds of current and former users (not all of them junkies, many are successful in life) all agreed that there's not such thing. The person who started the thread was doing opiates once or month or less and he had everything in his life, so he thought if you have other things to "fill the void", it's no problem. Three months later he comes back to the thread citing "severe, crippling, debilitating depression for no reason". Guess what, he was still doin it once a month at the most...the only cure for his depression? A nice shot of heroin/fentanyl/whoknowsexactlybutitwasanopioid....You still fuck up your reward centers like that, just takes longer. I wish I could find that and translate for yall :(

Even if you do it once a month, guess what, once a month is still addiction - a repetitive behavior.

Also, opiates are not nicotine or alcohol or even internet sex, you're fuckin with the granddaddy of addiction. My question is - do you really want to ? Because it will always get the best of you, so you either have to quit or succumb.

You're not going to have your cake and eat it too with opiates - there's not a chance in hell.

You know, I always used to think, oh people are so fuckin prejudiced against this and that...then after a while I saw that I'm not some genius among the dumb masses, because the prejudice is there for a reason. Another problem is when you're on the drugs, they promote themselves through your brain, so you get defensive when people call you out on doing it, and you deny you have a problem, and you promote it to others because you feel good.

That's just how it works - drugs need a piece of meat to advertise themselves. You take em and you become that billboard. 



You might be right about opiates, if so many users say so... but like nicotine I never met anyone, besides my father, who has used it for so long without getting addicted. The only people I met in my life were smokers ... or nonsmokers.

But then again I assume opiates gives pretty intense feelings and opium derivative must be more addictive. And if opiates modify deeply your brain it could explain a lot.

When I was on effexor and got off I felt like a pile of vomit after 3 days, they say effexor modify your brain. But 2 hours after taking rhodiola, St-John wort and B6 I felt I was better than before, of course it's always the same, the first day is always better in my case, and then I got back to a good normal base line the next day and for many years. I needed something to offset effexor withdrawal. By myself I was depress and it was difficult and the desire to go back to effexor was very intense because I new it would give my wellbeing back.

Edited by outsider, 03 April 2010 - 08:15 AM.


#48 The Immortalist

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:01 PM

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/1382551.stm

Thousands of people in the UK could be hooked on the anti-depressant drug Seroxat, without knowing it.
Dr David Healy, a UK expert in antidepressants, has said he has seen records of trials carried out by the manufacturers which showed healthy volunteers were suffering withdrawal symptoms after taking the drug for just a couple of weeks.


He said more than half of people on Seroxat may have "significant" withdrawal problems.

He said: "For most people who take the drug, one of the key points that will concern people is that Seroxat (paroxetine) could make you physically dependent."


One of the key points that will concern people is that Seroxat could make you physically dependent



Dr David Healy

Dr Healy, director of the North Wales department of psychological medicine was given access to the results of early trials of the drugs while a witness in a US case.
The case dealt with a seperate concern about the drug, which is that some people who take it could become violent towards themselves or others.

The family of David Snell won a $6.4m payout from manufacturers GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) after Mr Snell was found to have murdered three members of his family, and himself, after taking the drug for just two days.

The company denies the link and is appealing against the decision.

Two weeks earlier, in Australia, a judge ruled Sertraline, a drug in the same family, had caused David Hawkins to murder his wife and attempt to kill himself.

Dr Healy told BBC News Online, of the 100m people world-wide who were on Seroxat, one in 1,000 could have a suicidal reaction.

There have been concerns expressed in the past about antidepressants such as Prozac making healthy people with no history of mental illness feel violent.


New generation

Seroxat is part of a family of antidepressants called SSRIs (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor) which were introduced to the market in the early 1990s.

They were a replacement for benzodiazepines such as Valium and Librium - and their selling point was that people would not become physically dependent on them, unlike the older drugs.

Dr Healy was given access to GSK's archives because he was an expert witness in the Snell case.


And he said a trial a study of 34 healthy company workers by GSK, carried out before Seroxat was licensed, showed 25% became agitated.

Dr Healy believes a small number could be so disturbed by the effects of SSRIs that they could kill.

He said some of those involved in the pre-licensing trial had gone on to "suicidal acts".

He wrote to the Medicines Control Agency, which grants drug licenses in the UK, and said: "The relationship between their intake of paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat) and later suicidal acts is a matter about which neither you, nor SmithKline Beecham should be sanguine."

Dr Healy said the company has failed to pass on information to patients or doctors.

'Warning' call

He says a study which looked at the effect of stopping the drug for people who had successfully been treated for the depression showed many got worse.

The company argued this meant the drug should be licensed for long term treatment of depression.

Dr Healy says this is potentially more evidence that the participants in the trial were suffering withdrawal symptoms

He said the drug should carry warnings that some people who take it may experience violent or unusual thoughts, which were linked to the drug and not their condition.

And he said doctors who were treating people who suffered symptoms after coming off the drug "should be aware that maybe the underlying problem has cleared up and maybe the symptoms are due to withdrawal."

'Withdrawal problems

A World Health Organization report which ranked antidepressants in order of withdrawal problems found Seroxat was the hardest to come off.

Prozac (fluoxetine) was seventh.

Alan Chandler, a spokesman for GSK denied Seroxat was causing dependency, withdrawal symptoms or violent tendencies.

He said independent analysis last year by the MCA and others had concluded SSRIs did not cause dependency.

He said: "Withdrawal symptoms may occur with all SSRIs if treatment is abruptly stopped. This is not a sign of addiction or depression."


Edited by The Indefinite Lifespaner, 03 April 2010 - 12:02 PM.


#49 The Immortalist

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:17 PM

I've been off paxil for 4 days now. I don't seem to be getting any negative withdrawal sympomes or anything.


I thought the same when I stopped Citalopram. No withdrawal symptoms at all for the first days but then after 5-6 days all the withdrawal symptoms suddenly kicked in.



Damm it me too. Today I had the worst headache and I keep feeling sensations of "mini electrical shocks" I also feel dizzy and shit.

Damn paxil I'm going to get revenge on the company that makes it [GlaxoSmithKline (GSK)]. To everyone considering taking antidepressants or are already on it, I would advise to stop taking them and get to the root of your issues whatever they may be. You are a coward and a weakling if you cannot face the realities of this world if you need a drug. If your condition is perhaps caused by physiological problems rather than traumatic experiences that have happened, choose more natural solutions first before you try antidepressants. I am no doctor or professional I'm just basing this off of my own subjective experiences.

After this incident with taking paxil I have almost completely lost my trust in medical professionals which is sad. I now only trust myself now with my health. I shall research everything myself thoroughly.

#50 xdopamine

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:05 AM

I keep feeling sensations of "mini electrical shocks"


This really sucks. I remember when quickly moving my eyes caused this shit - zap, zap, zap, zap argh!!!

You are a coward and a weakling if you cannot face the realities of this world if you need a drug.


I don't think it's that easy. This attitude might work well for some time but once you get really desperate and sick of your situation people do many things to get relief.
However, I would start with MAOIs or NDRIs before trying SSRIs.

#51 outsider

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 08:02 AM

I'm a bit surprised by the total denials from the pharmaceutical companies since the evidence is there. Obviously there is a lot of cover-up.

But in a world driven by profits lies are king.

#52 The Immortalist

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 09:25 AM

You are a coward and a weakling if you cannot face the realities of this world if you need a drug.


I don't think it's that easy. This attitude might work well for some time but once you get really desperate and sick of your situation people do many things to get relief.
However, I would start with MAOIs or NDRIs before trying SSRIs.


What I'm getting at is that there are probably many people who are taking SSRI's that never really needed them in the first place.

There is evidence in experiments of healthy volunteers taking SSRI's for a certain amount of time and they feel withdrawal symptoms when they get off it.

#53 alpha2A

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:00 PM

 I love how naive some people are on here. Small doses of opioids for depression ? Really ?


No, whatever dose is necessary to achieve an acceptable quality of life, and not just small doses of opoiods but any substance that helps, in whatever quantities it takes.  Some people might rather kill themselves than take even the risk of addiction.  Well, let them kill themselves, and rid the gene pool of whatever defects give rise to such dysfunctional attitudes.  However, this is a life extension forum, so it seems appropriate to suggest that sufferers try out some of the tools that can make their lives livable, even if those tools are opioids, or indeed, even if the tools are neurotoxic alcohol and amphetamines.  Furthermore, if one wishes to kill oneself, a high dose of opioids is a wonderful way to accomplish that terminal mission.

There's a reason there's prejudice against opioids and a very good one at that. If you don't up the dosage and just do opioids occasionally, say hello to the deepest, most hellish depression originating from opioid use. The only thing that cures is is more opioids...don't think for a second that you can let the devil into your brain and have control over it.


If the "devil" is opioids, you don't have a choice, because he's already resident within your brain at birth in the for of endorphins, endomorphins, enkephalins, dynorphin, etc...Abortion, if done very very early in pregnancy might possibly prevent the demonic possession, but it prevents all the other things as well.


I am seriously willing to bet money that in six months your micro doses would evolve into serious doses and you'll be hooked and doing stuff junkies do.
Seriously that is some outrageous shit I still can't believe I read - opioids are associated with junkies and prescription addicts for a reason - you will be lying and stealing in no time.



I had episodes of stealing in my earlier years, for fun and to save money, but I don't recall stealing anything after I started opioids.  Remember, the only reason junkies steal is because the prejudice against opioids makes them so expensive and hard to acquire.  Generic morphine or other classic is not necessarily all that expensive - it's only so hard to get a prescription due to society's fear of opioids which make doctors fear so for their medical licences that they don't dare to put their name on the prescription that would keep the junkie off the streets and away from your car radio. It's madness!  Even a cold and heartless person who only thinks of money would value his car radio enough to see the wisdom in giving the junkie his prescription. Hitler was smart enough to let Goering dose himself with the new cruel... I mean pleasantly relaxing Nazi invention: methadone.  If everyone had an IQ of 130-something like Goering, they would understand that opioids aren't so bad.


]The only real use they have is when you're in ridiculous pain physically - as soon as you start using them for "mental pain" say hello to addiction and dependence.


Usinig opioids for physical pains is quite as likely to induce dependence as using opioids for mental suffering.  It's when you start chasing euphoria that you run the risk of quick addiction and death from overdose.  Why use opioids for physical pain, anyway?  Can't you just kill yourself instead?  By the way, when I was on buprenorphine I had to use paracetamol for my headache because bupe is a spectacularly incompetent pain killer - it did boost and prolong the efficacy of my stimulant however, as well as breathe new life into my working memory.

I mean...sure it helps the symptoms...but at least don't lie to yourself about the fact that you're becoming a junkie  ;) As long as you're honest I say take what you want to, but a lot of people seem to think they can have their cake and eat it too. Never works like that.




I never even got goose bumps when they terminated my buprenorphine abruptly after a few months.  I still have a couple of tablets left.  That's sufficient to induce sleep and depress breathing somewhat and in combination with all my benzodiazepines, perhaps enough to kill me, but I'm not convinced of that so I'll add paracetamol to destroy the liver, and a bunch of antipsychotics to suppress potential vomiting and keep the poisons from escaping .  But first, I want to try to talk them into letting me become a poppy head again, because that's more interesting than being a corpse, as it would allow me to sing endless songs of praise in honour of the poppy spirits that sustain me, as if by magic..  I can't become a junkie, because stimulants don't give me enough motivation and energy to kick myself out of the laziness, indifference and apathy that keep me from taking the necessary steps to improving my life by strealing your car radios, and I don't have any connections in the underworld anyway, so I wouldn't know where to buy the stuff that could breathe new life into me.

Another problem is when you're on the drugs, they promote themselves through your brain, so you get defensive when people call you out on doing it, and you deny you have a problem, and you promote it to others because you feel good



You're absolutely right, but there's nothing wrong with helping stamp out dysfunctional attitudes and prejudices...  I don't think I would have had as much fun being a corpse as I've had writing this, and I'm not even on opioids!

#54 dustinw

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 11:16 PM

You are a coward and a weakling if you cannot face the realities of this world if you need a drug.

I know I'm taking this quote out of context here, but in general it seems out of place on a forum dedicated to immortality. Being "better than well" is the whole point of this site. The "realities of this world" are that you will age and die, or you will need a drug or some other technology to prevent that. Similarly, why suffer from depression and lack of motivation when there are options available. Now clearly the technology has not yet advanced to the point where one can just take drugs without giving thought to the repercussions, so some balance is needed. But such a blanket statement that only a weakling would use a drug to make their life better strikes me as going too far.

BTW I am in no way advocating Paxil or any other antidepressant as I have never taken them, and in general I side with your sentiment that one should stick with the more natural remedies. But that is only for now; as our understanding of the biology increases, people who feel like they could benefit from them should embrace new synthetic drugs. After all, the alternative is, at best, a life with some ups and downs that ends before your 100th birthday. If you're OK with that, why post at the Immortality Institute?

Another problem is when you're on the drugs, they promote themselves through your brain, so you get defensive when people call you out on doing it, and you deny you have a problem, and you promote it to others because you feel good.

That's just how it works - drugs need a piece of meat to advertise themselves. You take em and you become that billboard. 

Again, generalizations about drugs seem strange here. I whole-heartedly recommend piracetam and vitamin B6, they make me feel great. I would deny I had a problem if you called me out on it. Does that make me a junkie? I've also used opioids on numerous occasions and have never felt compelled to steal something or lie about whether I had taken them, nor had the overriding urge to take them again. In fact, I haven't done so in several years. They may not have worked for you, but obviously some people are able to use enough caution in taking them to achieve desirable results without addiction. "Drugs" seem no different to me than anything else in the world, you have to find the right balance: just enough water and you feel great and hydrated; too much and you die of hyponatremia. Or technology:the internet is a great tool that allows instantaneous communication and unlimited opportunity, but without balance or using it properly you can spend all day looking at pictures of LOLcats as you grow fat and weak. It's just a matter of finding the right dosage. Just because some people are addicted to World of Warcraft or internet porn doesn't mean that everyone who uses a computer will invariably do the same.

#55 spider

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 10:58 AM

Hello TIL,

How are you doing?

If those side effects of the with drawel gives you a hard time, perhaps you could go back on paxil but half your usual dosage.

I agree most AD's are damn harsh.

#56 Furbix

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 10:17 AM

I'm in a similar situation to the initial poster. The doctors here in England that I have visited are so backward, they refused to acknowledge such issues and thus have carried out the relevent tests. They would take offence if I mentioned anything from the internet. My doctor's solution was to prescribe me anti-depressents which after a course, I determined to be completely useless because of the side effects. So I've now reverted back to throwing darts at the dartboard.

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#57 Mishael

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:51 PM

Ok, to the OP. I took Paxil a while back I think for a little while, a month or less, maybe even just two weeks or more. I got dry mouth, and a feeling of tired excitement. I also was more assertive in talking. But it made me feel strange inside. I got off it pretty quickly and NEVER EVEN MISSED IT.

I applaud you for taking matters into your own hands. Good for you!!! It is YOUR BODY, not the doctors. Doctors are the servants of the pharmaceutical companies. All they know is drug for this, drug for that, etc. THIS IS STUPID!!! HUMANS ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH IN THEIR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE TO HELP YOU. SIMPLICITY AND COMMON SENSE AND PERSISTENCE TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THINGS IS KEY. In the 1700's and 1800's they use to use strychnine and opium and other abominations as medicine and do blood letting and use leeches and blister people and all kinds of barbarism. In the 50's and 60's until this day we put chemicals, pesticides and all kinds of evil substances and concoctions in food and personal care products. You cannot trust your life to a selfish, ignorant, greedy, money motivated man who does not know you and could care less about you!!!

The educational system even for doctors is flawed. This is my feeling and perception and understanding in addition to an article that pointed out that most doctors forget the vast amount of information they learned in medical school, sorry I do not have the article I think it might even have been a Harvard study. They are trained by filling there minds with too much information over a short period of time and they cram it all in to pass tests only to forget it down the line and then they use reference books. THIS IS THE NORM IN MY OPINION.

Now young people are more prone to fall into the trap of believing high claims and promises IMO. And if you really think about it the internet is nothing more than a huge shopping mall. .com here and .com there everything is a dot com. You really have to be careful where you get your info. from., because it is tailored around the idea of personal profit and greed rather than profit for the consumer. The dot com's are going to paint the rosiest picture of their product and then sell you garbage. It has happened to me countless times and to myriads.




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