40 replies to this topic

[OneScrewLoose]

I think that the name of this place, the Immortality Institute, is something that pushes away most people and only attracts people with a very specific mindset. It sounds kinda cheesy, and I feel like if I invited someone to here I would have to explain what it is before hand because the name is pretty off-putting. I also feel it's uninclusive. I am not interested in immortality/living indefinitely, but rather simply maximizing my health when I am here, and I know there are more people like me, square-curvers who just want the most out of their lives.. Being that this is probably one of the best knowledge repositories on health and supplements on the internet, I feel that having a name that includes more than just people interested in immortality would attract a lot more people, and a lot more smart minds to add to this discussion.

I see that you guys are trying to grow this place, but I don't see it growing very much, and I feel a name change is the first thing that can change that. I also think it would help with the vitamin sales. If we sold the best vitamin on the market, with name that includes all kinds of people interested in health, this place would grow by leaps and bounds.

I know this suggestion will probably upset a lot of people here, because they've been part of the "Immortality Institute" for years. But I am just suggesting this from the perspective I had when I first came here, that this was a little weird. I am not making that statement in regards to the people here, I love you guys, but just in regards to how a name like this one might be seen. Now, if you guys only want to attract people here interested in immortality, then I suppose the name is perfect. But if not, I think it's something that could be given some thought, especially before the vitamin is released.

[David Styles]

I think that the name of this place, the Immortality Institute, is something that pushes away most people and only attracts people with a very specific mindset.

Agreed.

It sounds kinda cheesy, and I feel like if I invited someone to here I would have to explain what it is before hand because the name is pretty off-putting. I also feel it's uninclusive. I am not interested in immortality/living indefinitely, but rather simply maximizing my health when I am here, and I know there are more people like me, square-curvers who just want the most out of their lives.. Being that this is probably one of the best knowledge repositories on health and supplements on the internet, I feel that having a name that includes more than just people interested in immortality would attract a lot more people, and a lot more smart minds to add to this discussion.

By the same logic, Manchester United Football Club should change its name to Football Beer Pies Chanting and Fighting Club.

Just because something has developed incidental peripheral attributes that attract a lot of people doesn't mean that its name needs to change.

I see that you guys are trying to grow this place, but I don't see it growing very much, and I feel a name change is the first thing that can change that.

Let me use an analogy from the world of health with which you are doubtlessly familiar.

Would you approach a body-builder who is carefully taking protein shakes and amino acids etc, and say "I can see that you are trying to grow this body, but I don't see it growing very much, and I feel that eating tons of ice cream and biscuits is the first thing that can change that"?

Sure he'd grow his body faster by following your suggestion, but it wouldn't be the kind of growth he's looking for.

Similarly, the Immortality Institute could grow more quickly if it shied away from pushing the concept of immortality, but then it wouldn't be upkeeping its mission statement "to conquer the blight of involuntary death".

I know this suggestion will probably upset a lot of people here, because they've been part of the "Immortality Institute" for years. But I am just suggesting this from the perspective I had when I first came here, that this was a little weird. I am not making that statement in regards to the people here, I love you guys, but just in regards to how a name like this one might be seen.

With a little luck, it will be seen as suggesting that this is an Institute that busies itself with advocacy and research for unlimited lifespans, like it says in the banner.

Now, if you guys only want to attract people here interested in immortality, then I suppose the name is perfect.

I agree.

Edited by David Styles, 28 March 2010 - 02:31 AM.

[The Immortalist]

I think that the name of this place, the Immortality Institute, is something that pushes away most people and only attracts people with a very specific mindset. It sounds kinda cheesy, and I feel like if I invited someone to here I would have to explain what it is before hand because the name is pretty off-putting. I also feel it's uninclusive. I am not interested in immortality/living indefinitely, but rather simply maximizing my health when I am here, and I know there are more people like me, square-curvers who just want the most out of their lives.. Being that this is probably one of the best knowledge repositories on health and supplements on the internet, I feel that having a name that includes more than just people interested in immortality would attract a lot more people, and a lot more smart minds to add to this discussion.

I see that you guys are trying to grow this place, but I don't see it growing very much, and I feel a name change is the first thing that can change that. I also think it would help with the vitamin sales. If we sold the best vitamin on the market, with name that includes all kinds of people interested in health, this place would grow by leaps and bounds.

I know this suggestion will probably upset a lot of people here, because they've been part of the "Immortality Institute" for years. But I am just suggesting this from the perspective I had when I first came here, that this was a little weird. I am not making that statement in regards to the people here, I love you guys, but just in regards to how a name like this one might be seen. Now, if you guys only want to attract people here interested in immortality, then I suppose the name is perfect. But if not, I think it's something that could be given some thought, especially before the vitamin is released.

Well here's a new discussion on a possible name change http://www.imminst.o...o...c=39796&hl=

[OneScrewLoose]

Let me restate my point using your analogy. Let's say this is a "bodybuilding forum." I am saying it's not solely a bodybuilding forum, but rather a general exercise forum, because enough members exercise and don't care about bodybuilding (a more specific form of exercise), and should be renamed as such to reflect the people who are actually in the forum. Likewise, I am saying that this isn't solely a immortality forum, but more accurately a general health/life extensionist forum, and I feel that renaming it would do a lot of good for this place and be more reflective of its members. Renaming a a bodybuilding site to an exercise site does not preclude bodybuilding, but just expands past it, and so would renaming imminst expand past its original purpose while still including it.

Make more sense?

[Mind]

Thanks for the suggestion. All square-curvers are of course welcome.

See my post here.

We have claimed the "Immortality" web space for rationality and science. That is a good thing. There are thousands of other general nutrition/life extension websites that already exist (and thousands of other mystical, snake oil "immortality" websites that we push to the background through our presence). Also, we have a niche and the goal is not to square the curve.

[OneScrewLoose]

Yeah, but this site is better than all those others. And, even if you want to stick with that niche, I think simply rephrasing it would be a good idea. Immortality Institute sounds really, really cheesy. Even something like "Center for Unlimited Lifespans" or "Unlimited Lifespan Institute" would say the same thing and sound a lot better. The word immortality has so many scifi cliches attached to it that it really does a disservice to this place. If you guys really want to grow this place and spread the word of immortality/unlimited lifespans, the name simply has to go.

[David Styles]

Let me restate my point using your analogy. Let's say this is a "bodybuilding forum." I am saying it's not solely a bodybuilding forum, but rather a general exercise forum, because enough members exercise and don't care about bodybuilding (a more specific form of exercise), and should be renamed as such to reflect the people who are actually in the forum. Likewise, I am saying that this isn't solely a immortality forum, but more accurately a general health/life extensionist forum, and I feel that renaming it would do a lot of good for this place and be more reflective of its members. Renaming a a bodybuilding site to an exercise site does not preclude bodybuilding, but just expands past it, and so would renaming imminst expand past its original purpose while still including it.

Make more sense?

No.

You say that the Immortality Institute is "more accurately a general health/life extensionist forum".

The Immortality Institute is not a forum. The Immortality Institute has messageboard facilities, but to suggest that the one is the other is to not see the wood for the trees.

The Immortality Institute is an Institute for Immortality. It has a Constitution, a Mission Statement, a Board of Directors to further the above, projects to make the above happen, teams to work on the projects to make the above happen.

The forums, while useful, are frankly a peripheral attribute and are not the Institute itself.

Just because there are lots of people who found a couple of peripheral attributes attractive, does not mean that the Immortality Institute has now become a general health messageboard, any more than Manchester United Football Club has become Manchester United Beers Pies and Chanting Club because most of its peripheral hangers-on are attracted to it for the social aspect.

[Mind]

I hear what you are saying onescrewloose. I understand your perspective. But changing worn-out perceptions of words is also a laudable goal. A few years from now, if new generations think of science and medicine (instead of hokus-pokus, mysticism, and fiction) when they hear the word immortality, then we know that Imminst has succeeded. People will always think of "hokus-pokus" unless they are presented with an alternative.

[OneScrewLoose]

I hear what you are saying onescrewloose. I understand your perspective. But changing worn-out perceptions of words is also a laudable goal. A few years from now, if new generations think of science and medicine (instead of hokus-pokus, mysticism, and fiction) when they hear the word immortality, then we know that Imminst has succeeded. People will always think of "hokus-pokus" unless they are presented with an alternative.

To me, words are simply a way of conveying meaning. If a serious discussion of life-extension is the goal of that meaning, then immortality is the incorrect word to use. Changing the meaning of a word is a completely separate and irrelevant goal, IMO. Why not focus on the true goal?

[David Styles]

I hear what you are saying onescrewloose. I understand your perspective. But changing worn-out perceptions of words is also a laudable goal. A few years from now, if new generations think of science and medicine (instead of hokus-pokus, mysticism, and fiction) when they hear the word immortality, then we know that Imminst has succeeded. People will always think of "hokus-pokus" unless they are presented with an alternative.

To me, words are simply a way of conveying meaning. If a serious discussion of life-extension is the goal of that meaning, then immortality is the incorrect word to use. Changing the meaning of a word is a completely separate and irrelevant goal, IMO. Why not focus on the true goal?

Yes indeed, why not.

Please bear in mind that the true goal is immortality.

The Immortality Institute's mission is "to conquer the blight of involuntary death".

Not "to slightly delay the blight of involuntary death".

To conquer it.

That is immortality, and that is our true goal.

I'm really not sure what you're missing here.

[OneScrewLoose]

I hear what you are saying onescrewloose. I understand your perspective. But changing worn-out perceptions of words is also a laudable goal. A few years from now, if new generations think of science and medicine (instead of hokus-pokus, mysticism, and fiction) when they hear the word immortality, then we know that Imminst has succeeded. People will always think of "hokus-pokus" unless they are presented with an alternative.

To me, words are simply a way of conveying meaning. If a serious discussion of life-extension is the goal of that meaning, then immortality is the incorrect word to use. Changing the meaning of a word is a completely separate and irrelevant goal, IMO. Why not focus on the true goal?

Yes indeed, why not.

Please bear in mind that the true goal is immortality.

The Immortality Institute's mission is "to conquer the blight of involuntary death".

Not "to slightly delay the blight of involuntary death".

To conquer it.

That is immortality, and that is our true goal.

I'm really not sure what you're missing here.

I am talking about the reality of restricting the rate of growth by using a cheesy word that has better synonyms.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 28 March 2010 - 07:23 PM.

[Athanasios]

Just a note, it can be easy to miss that science uses the word immortal and immortality in the same way ImmInst uses it, as in biological immortality. So, in at least one meaningful way, the word is not silly, cheesy, or adolescent.

[Mind]

Imminst member Agevivo has created some alternative solutions for having your "cake and eating it too", with regards to removing the word Immortality. Read here. The Lifespan society presentation is ingenious by replacing the words Immortality Institute with "Lifespan Society". This has not been properly voted on by the Board or Members, but it is a possible avenue.

New people come to the site every year and don't like the name. They propose to change it. There are polls and discussions and votes and nothing comes of it because the paying members who created the constitution and have to power to change the constitution (and mission) like the name.

[OneScrewLoose]

I suppose what it comes down to is the desire for growth vs. the idealism that comes with the word immortality. I don't see the attachment to it, but what I do see is severely stunted growth. It's just a matter of enough of a desire to change that I suppose.

[The Immortalist]

the paying members who created the constitution and have to power to change the constitution (and mission) like the name.

change or die, change or die, it's one of the theories of evolution. If you don't adapt to the surrounding conditions you die. Those who don't live with the times and are conservative impede progress. Leon Kass with salt and pepper and ketchup anyone?

How many new people come forward each year and say they don't like the name?

Edited by The Indefinite Lifespaner, 29 March 2010 - 04:48 AM.

[David Styles]

the paying members who created the constitution and have to power to change the constitution (and mission) like the name.

change or die, change or die, it's one of the theories of evolution. If you don't adapt to the surrounding conditions you die.

If you're going to talk evolution, I recommend to at least take into account what you're talking about.

Evolution occurs because of mutations. Some turn out to be useful. The majority are counterproductive and thus those genes are less likely to be passed on.

The upshot? Some change is good, not all.

To try to argue that all change is important for survival is ridiculous when commonly the obverse is true.

Edited by David Styles, 29 March 2010 - 09:23 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

I don't know the figures of how many people request a name change each year, but it does come up seemingly annually. Doing a search of the issue (as I'm sure you have done) brings up hundreds of discussions. What I've seen over time is that people are strongly on either side--without much middle ground. The reality is that many of our members have come here initially due to the name Immortality Institute. Another reality is that our long time members are attached to the name and identify strongly with our mission. It is also true that a less controversial name (as seen by the majority of people) could be useful and perhaps many of our members would be more vocal with their friends and family if we had one. That said, the current name is useful --it can be seen as over the top and have comedy appeal in the media, and also depending on how far down the rabbit hole people want to go, they can learn about the possibilities in science and technology for extreme life extension.

[lunarsolarpower]

I think it might take about 2 years to go from the point of strongly wanting to change the name to becoming more or less comfortable with it and seeing how keeping it is the right thing to do for the institute. Hence about every 2 years or so we have this topic flare up and sometimes go back and forth for as much as several months. Eventually the consensus determines that what we have is indeed working and especially because we're primarily based on the internet it probably provides benefits that outweigh any harm it causes.

[OneScrewLoose]

I know I would start inviting people if the name were changed. I really do think that this name and real growth are mutually exclusive.

[AgeVivo]

I know I would start inviting people if the name were changed. I really do think that this name and real growth are mutually exclusive.

That's my feeling too. There are about a hundred people I'd invite here if the name was sufficiently mainstream and appeared as the main name rather than a second name, so that I would be quite sure that they would be attracted and would not consider my interests as strange.

[The Immortalist]

I know I would start inviting people if the name were changed. I really do think that this name and real growth are mutually exclusive.

That's my feeling too. There are about a hundred people I'd invite here if the name was sufficiently mainstream and appeared as the main name rather than a second name, so that I would be quite sure that they would be attracted and would not consider my interests as strange.

You know what, I'm not afraid of saying I support the Immortality institute to people and I never was afraid. That is who I am, if they don't like it and disrespect me for it, that's fine I know it's not their fault, it's just the way they are. The only reason I suggested a name change is because I thought it would draw more people and support in (and that's what we desperately need right now). But we have Longecity, and we have the alternative lifespan society prentation.

Edited by The Indefinite Lifespaner, 31 March 2010 - 02:17 AM.

[AgeVivo]

I agree with your additional reason for a name change, and it is actually my main reason : to spread the cause in large

[AgeVivo]

But we have Longecity, and we have the alternative lifespan society prentation.

Pros and Cons about Longecity and Lifespan Society: they have started to exist but they require more work/advertizing (synergy):

• "Longecity" is the best concept because it is fully transparent: it is exactly what it says, and is mainstream by its very concept. The difficulty to make it work is mostly technical: to access login-based-forums and to make things that would drive a lot of people there (I have some ideas but it is not straightforward)
• "Lifespan Society" could be like hidding one's intention to visitors if imminst doesn't very-officially has that name (and not as a 2nd ranked named): could do more harm than good if it is strongly advertized without imminst dispaying it clearly. At a very minimum imminst.org's frontpage should typically start with "Imminst.or - Immortality Institute - Lifespan Society"

So changing Imminst's name or having two official names would still be required to optimize spreading the cause while maintaining a core of immortalists.

http://www.imminst.o...o...39796&st=60

You couldn't have put it better dfowler. All three comments here summarize perfectly the reasons for a change. Imminst leadership take a good read here.

[Delorean]

For those who are happy with the name of the organisation, you really have to ask yourself why this subject comes up again and again.


To me it's a very cold sounding name and not something that general public would ever warm to. We could do much better.

[Athanasios]

There has yet to be a good reason to want to bring in the masses when they do not come close to accepting the mission statement. They currently are not open to it. It is better to bring in those that accept the mission and give them a community of like minds and resources to enable them to spread influence through media or personal interaction. This is the wrong time to switch strategies. We want to switch when everyone that we mention lifespan extension to says, 'Of course we should do that'. That is when you gather all the people you can for a call to action. Right now we want the driven minority that will educate and influence others.

We are currently targeting a larger subset of people than immortalists, who are more likely to agree with our mission than the masses, by bringing in supplement users. Many supplement users are not into the mission statement yet some are or become so. Adding much larger subsets of people who are less likely than supplement users to agree on the mission statement is not the answer. It would be harmful and diluting to the point that the mission statement would no longer be representative of the site.

We have one group saying to kill the supplement sections completely because it is too diluting. We have another group saying we need to dilute more to gain growth. The fact that we have both groups complaining is a very good sign that we have the right balance.

Edited by cnorwood, 07 April 2010 - 05:45 PM.

[AgeVivo]

If there is a good reason to keep the name that you don't want to mention, please PM me. Because while I'm insisting your remaining arguments are becoming more and more strange. In the last post I personally view everything the other way around.

There has yet to be a good reason to want to bring in the masses when they do not come close to accepting the mission statement.

The 'masses' (if the word isn't overlooking normal people) are currently interested in advances against ageing. Isn't it close to the mission statement? Why do you want to remain a tiny community without much power to change things?

They currently are not open to it. It is better to bring in those that accept the mission and give them a community of like minds and resources to enable them to spread influence through media or personal interaction.

I don't see how you will spread influence through the media if you try to not be mainstream

This is the wrong time to switch strategies.

So we can wait one or few decades to react, a few decades to have funding for more research, and a few decades for tuning and side effects analysis?

We want to switch when everyone that we mention lifespan extension to says, 'Of course we should do that'.

When will you switch? You know, today if you mention lifespan extension it is not too bad actually. I wish it would be due to imminst but honestly I think imminst still has a long way to go to change the world.

That is when you gather all the people you can for a call to action. Right now we want the driven minority that will educate and influence others.

You indeed need to gather all the people you can; but... by being a minority? And then suddenly with some kind of magic your minority will become "all the people you can"?

Adding much larger subsets of people who are less likely than supplement users to agree on the mission statement is not the answer. It would be harmful and diluting to the point that the mission statement would no longer be representative of the site.

You are afraid not to control things so you restrict to your own little world and think that will change the world?

We have one group saying to kill the supplement sections completely because it is too diluting. We have another group saying we need to dilute more to gain growth. The fact that we have both groups complaining is a very good sign that we have the right balance.

In your own little world you don't have the control but it seem nice to you. I think you are simply excluding the majority you need. If you accept to adapt to the majority I believe that you won't focus your efforts on controlling the mission status; you will rather focus your efforts and energy on changing the world positively (at least for healthier and longer lives)

[Athanasios]

Go for it. But, I think you will find that you will have marginalized what has made the institute strong from the beginning.

Edited by cnorwood, 08 April 2010 - 01:20 AM.

[AgeVivo]

Go for it. But

Ok!
Here is what I'd suggest. To be discussed of course:

The Immortality Institute as initiator and part of the Lifespan Society -- both being unified

Technically:
- lifespansociety.org will now use the system (database, etc) that is now currently in imminst.org
Change of things like the top layer that will say "Lifespan Society -- for longer and healthier lives -- initially grounded by the ImmInst" instead of "Immortality Institute -- Advocacy & Research For Unlimited Lifespans"
- imminst.org will now use the system (a single php file plus a few images) that is now currently in lifespansociety.org
Changes of things like the top layer will typically say "Immortality Institute -- Advocacy & Research For Unlimited Lifespans -- Part of the Lifespan Society".

We have to look at how to do it technically, if a simple change of DNS is sufficient, or if we need to copy at once imminst's system to lifespansociety.org, if both web sites must be on the same webspace and provider. Other similar domain names (.com, .net etc) to be redirected correctly. I imagine that no change of the constitution would be need especially in a first year (we will see if it will bring a lot more people and a lot more power to change the world, I think so) and simply introduce things with one or two preliminary sentences.

Ustream chat named Lifespan Society
Currently named "an immortalist life":

Longevity community network extended
I could try to have http://longeCity.com automatically display the latest posts of Imminst/Longecity (already done), MF (already done), CAA, SENS, GRG, all in one page (using respective passwords or not). We could try to make it possible to post from there (using respective passwords, of course).


Ok, what do you think of it?

[e Volution]

FWIW I once sent a link for a forum thread to a friend and they were immediately turned off by Immortality. He is a smart guy also. I think most people equate Immortality with Gods. Anyhow I have a feeling this debate is quite complex and been going for a while, so I will leave my 2c here and go

[AgeVivo]

We have to look at how to do it technically, if a simple change of DNS is sufficient, or if we need to copy at once imminst's system to lifespansociety.org, if both web sites must be on the same webspace and provider.

Whom should I discuss with about this? Does anyone knows the answer?