19 replies to this topic

[Charmion]

Hi, I'm new and this is my first post here. I'll get straight to the point: I'm now twenty; in my youth between the years of about 15 and 17, was a moderately heavy drug user of ecstacy (done maybe about 20 times), heroin (maybe 10-20 times, insufflated), various pain meds from lortabs to oxys; also weed, some shrooms, and acid (one time, light dose). Basically, I wasn't a complete junkie, but had done slightly more than your average high schooler.

Now, you guys seem pretty knowledgeable here, I'm wondering if you could provide me with a supplement regimen designed to...I don't know exactly how to put this...counteract these few years of my life in terms of the possible harm they may have (most likely did) done to my brain and nervous system. I consider myself fairly intelligent; I don't want a few mistakes that I made in the past deteriorate my ability; I want to get to where that deterioration is minimized. Again, I posted here because many here seem knowledgeable and...well, with an ambitious name like "The Immortality Institute," I'm sure you guys know your way around vitamins and nutropics and maximizing mental potential.

My current supplement regimen is Iron-Free Life Force Multiple of Source Naturals and Carlson fish oil. I greatly appreciate any advice I can get. Thank you.

[outsider]

Any mind herb will help you.

Bacopa, Gotu kola, shankapushpi, schizandra, reishi, lion's mane, Celastrus, lemon balm, 3+ cups of green tea.

[Charmion]

Any mind herb will help you.

Bacopa, Gotu kola, shankapushpi, schizandra, reishi, lion's mane, Celastrus, lemon balm, 3+ cups of green tea.

Thanks for the advice.

Bump for more.

[e Volution]

Im no expert, but I think you should lose the idea of having to correct any damage you have done from your previous partying ways. Any damage you have sustained (important point here is there may not be any) will probably be permanent. So moving forward, your requirements are not infact specialized, and are just like the rest of us: brain health and/or brain enhancement. For this -unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it- you simply have to start reading the nootropics forum, and digesting as much information as you can. Where your personal risk/benefit ratio lies on the whole host of completely-safe-tried-and-tested to more-experimental-but-possibly-more-beneficial no one can tell you but you.

[chrono]

Hi, I'm new and this is my first post here. I'll get straight to the point: I'm now twenty; in my youth between the years of about 15 and 17, was a moderately heavy drug user of ecstacy (done maybe about 20 times), heroin (maybe 10-20 times, insufflated), various pain meds from lortabs to oxys; also weed, some shrooms, and acid (one time, light dose). Basically, I wasn't a complete junkie, but had done slightly more than your average high schooler.

The only one of these that causes neurological damage is MDMA. Twenty times over 2-3 years is still fairly moderate, compared to a lot of people I know. Other than that, any damage was psychological, depending on how you used these drugs.

Two substances shown to repair damage done to the brain are deprenyl and microdose lithium. Both are rather "serious" pharmaceuticals compared to many you'll find here, so do a lot of reading if you decide to give these a try. There are many excellent threads on each. Be thinking 5mg lithium orotate/aspartate daily, and 1mg deprenyl 3x a week for your age.

This thread asked essentially the same question, and had some more helpful answers: Trying to "repair" brain after drug use, Improve oxygen uptake, etc.

Substances which promote neurogensis might help you, although they wouldn't be targeting damage due to oxidative stress like lithium and deprenyl do. ALCAR and lion's mane are great choices with few downsides.

Are you asking this because you feel like you have cognitive deficits? Either way, I'd start some reading here about general nootropic usage. It will help you whether you have actual damage to worry about, or have no excuse like the rest of us

Fish oil is great, keep taking it. Magnesium is another basic which supports many cognitive and emotional functions. Good luck! and check back in if you need more pointers.

Edited by chrono, 08 April 2010 - 05:10 AM.

[Charmion]

Im no expert, but I think you should lose the idea of having to correct any damage you have done from your previous partying ways. Any damage you have sustained (important point here is there may not be any) will probably be permanent. So moving forward, your requirements are not infact specialized, and are just like the rest of us: brain health and/or brain enhancement. For this -unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it- you simply have to start reading the nootropics forum, and digesting as much information as you can. Where your personal risk/benefit ratio lies on the whole host of completely-safe-tried-and-tested to more-experimental-but-possibly-more-beneficial no one can tell you but you.

Thanks for your help mate. I've considered this possibility many times. If anything permanent happened, I'll just have to make the best of it. Again, thanks.

Hi, I'm new and this is my first post here. I'll get straight to the point: I'm now twenty; in my youth between the years of about 15 and 17, was a moderately heavy drug user of ecstacy (done maybe about 20 times), heroin (maybe 10-20 times, insufflated), various pain meds from lortabs to oxys; also weed, some shrooms, and acid (one time, light dose). Basically, I wasn't a complete junkie, but had done slightly more than your average high schooler.

The only one of these that causes neurological damage is MDMA. Twenty times over 2-3 years is still fairly moderate, compared to a lot of people I know. Other than that, any damage was psychological, depending on how you used these drugs.

Two substances shown to repair damage done to the brain are deprenyl and microdose lithium. Both are rather "serious" pharmaceuticals compared to many you'll find here, so do a lot of reading if you decide to give these a try. There are many excellent threads on each. Be thinking 5mg lithium orotate/aspartate daily, and 1mg deprenyl 3x a week for your age.

This thread asked essentially the same question, and had some more helpful answers: Trying to "repair" brain after drug use, Improve oxygen uptake, etc.

Substances which promote neurogensis might help you, although they wouldn't be targeting damage due to oxidative stress like lithium and deprenyl do. ALCAR and lion's mane are great choices with few downsides.

Are you asking this because you feel like you have cognitive deficits? Either way, I'd start some reading here about general nootropic usage. It will help you whether you have actual damage to worry about, or have no excuse like the rest of us

Fish oil is great, keep taking it. Magnesium is another basic which supports many cognitive and emotional functions. Good luck! and check back in if you need more pointers.

Yeah, plus it was street "MDMA" so who the hell knows what it was cut with. I've probably ingested amphetamines, coke (even though I always HATED actual coke)...

I don't feel necessarily that I have any cognitive deficits...I feel like I might. It's hard to explain. I just want to alleviate as much damage that was done to the nervous system in general as possible. If there was none (which I think there was at least SOME...), then It can't hurt.

I've been reading many "nootropics for beginners" articles, so I know some of the basic substances of a stack. I'm thinking, so far...Piracetam, GDPCholine, Lion's mane (perhaps along with ALCAR, stuff's expensive though...), Idebenone, and perhaps some of the neuro-enhanced B vitamins. And perhaps more if I can afford it.

Anyhow, a million thanks for your kind help, and the reference to the thread. By the way, I will check out the lithium and deprenyl, but are they perscription drugs? and if so, could I get they from a physician simply by telling him of my past use? I'm also curious as to the nature of the psychological damage that you say can be sustained from MDMA.

Thanks again!

[chrono]

I've been reading many "nootropics for beginners" articles, so I know some of the basic substances of a stack. I'm thinking, so far...Piracetam, GDPCholine, Lion's mane (perhaps along with ALCAR, stuff's expensive though...), Idebenone, and perhaps some of the neuro-enhanced B vitamins. And perhaps more if I can afford it.

Those are all solid choices. ALCAR is cheap as heck, though. True Protein has 1lb tubs for $23, or 5¢/g (before shipping). CDP Choline or Alpha GPC is definitely going to be the most expensive. If money's a factor, you may want to wait and see if piracetam gives you any negative side effects, and maybe try a cheaper choline source first.

Anyhow, a million thanks for your kind help, and the reference to the thread. By the way, I will check out the lithium and deprenyl, but are they perscription drugs? and if so, could I get they from a physician simply by telling him of my past use? I'm also curious as to the nature of the psychological damage that you say can be sustained from MDMA.

Lithium is available as a supplement, iHerb has both forms, and it's also very cheap. Deprenyl is prescription, but getting a doc to prescribe it to someone your age would be a miracle, let alone for the reason we're discussing. They sell patches for depression, but I think they're very expensive. There are several threads here mentioning sources of deprenyl that ship to the US, fairly reliably.

Most amphetamines, and especially MDMA/meth, cause damage by oxidative stress. Deprenyl especially is able to reverse this, or so a few studies indicate. Also damage is done to serotonin, but that's probably with more use than you had, and harder to repair. Here's an article: Does MDMA Cause Brain Damage?

[Charmion]

I've been reading many "nootropics for beginners" articles, so I know some of the basic substances of a stack. I'm thinking, so far...Piracetam, GDPCholine, Lion's mane (perhaps along with ALCAR, stuff's expensive though...), Idebenone, and perhaps some of the neuro-enhanced B vitamins. And perhaps more if I can afford it.

Those are all solid choices. ALCAR is cheap as heck, though. True Protein has 1lb tubs for $23, or 5¢/g (before shipping). CDP Choline or Alpha GPC is definitely going to be the most expensive. If money's a factor, you may want to wait and see if piracetam gives you any negative side effects, and maybe try a cheaper choline source first.

Anyhow, a million thanks for your kind help, and the reference to the thread. By the way, I will check out the lithium and deprenyl, but are they perscription drugs? and if so, could I get they from a physician simply by telling him of my past use? I'm also curious as to the nature of the psychological damage that you say can be sustained from MDMA.

Lithium is available as a supplement, iHerb has both forms, and it's also very cheap. Deprenyl is prescription, but getting a doc to prescribe it to someone your age would be a miracle, let alone for the reason we're discussing. They sell patches for depression, but I think they're very expensive. There are several threads here mentioning sources of deprenyl that ship to the US, fairly reliably.

Most amphetamines, and especially MDMA/meth, cause damage by oxidative stress. Deprenyl especially is able to reverse this, or so a few studies indicate. Also damage is done to serotonin, but that's probably with more use than you had, and harder to repair. Here's an article: Does MDMA Cause Brain Damage?

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine is cheap, yes. But N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate isn't. The arginate group, from what I understand, is necessary for the NGF-mimicing effects (the plan is to use it to complement lion's mane in this respect).

I've always wondered, though, if cheaper choline sources are just as good as more expensive ones. What's the difference between them?

Can you tell me what the difference is between lithium orotate and aspartate is, and if they reverse oxidative damage in the brain as well (Deprenyl I will likely not be buying).

And thanks for the link! I will read up.

[niner]

I will echo what Icantgoforthat said; I don't think you have a significant amount of brain damage. You haven't really abused that many substances, and some of them, perhaps the scariest-sounding, (heroin, acid, shrooms) likely left no long term damage. I think what you need at this point is not nootropics but a healthy diet, a good exercise program, sufficient sleep and some modest supplementation. In addition to the multi and the fish oil, I would add 2000 IU of vitamin D3 in an oil-based (softgel) formulation. Ideally you should get your 25-OH-D3 level tested, and shoot for 50ng/ml.

[Logan]

[quote name='niner' date='Apr 9 2010, 12:39 AM' post='398171']
I will echo what Icantgoforthat said; I don't think you have a significant amount of brain damage. You haven't really abused that many substances, and some of them, perhaps the scariest-sounding, (heroin, acid, shrooms) likely left no long term damage. I think what you need at this point is not nootropics but a healthy diet, a good exercise program, sufficient sleep and some modest supplementation. In addition to the multi and the fish oil, I would add 2000 IU of vitamin D3 in an oil-based (softgel) formulation. Ideally you should get your 25-OH-D3 level tested, and shoot for 50ng/ml.
[/quoe]

+1 especially for diet and exercise. It also might not be a bad idea to start adding blueberries to your regular diet. I prefer Wyman's Wild frozen blueberries. I put them in my protein/wheatgrass smoothie and eat them with plain yogurt and granola-delicious.

[chrono]

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine is cheap, yes. But N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate isn't. The arginate group, from what I understand, is necessary for the NGF-mimicing effects (the plan is to use it to complement lion's mane in this respect).

Excellent combination. But no, regular old ALCAR does this too. Arginate supposedly does it better by like 14%, but that claim is based entirely on one test tube study, which left a big question or two unanswered when applied to actual use in the human body. It's probably a better form to take, but if you're strapped for cash (I am too), taking a good dose of ALCAR every day consistently is going to do more for you than taking smaller amounts of Arginate, only when you can afford it.

I've always wondered, though, if cheaper choline sources are just as good as more expensive ones. What's the difference between them?

GPC and CDP have other neurological benefits, beyond increasing ACh levels. There are other threads here that answer this in depth. But they're very expensive, even in bulk. You could get several other things for the cost of this, which will have a more pronounced effect.

Can you tell me what the difference is between lithium orotate and aspartate is, and if they reverse oxidative damage in the brain as well

See this thread for differences. I would (and will soon) go with the aspartate, due to a very slim chance that orotate can accelerate growth of cancer cells.

Lithium promotes neurogenesis (new cell growth), but I don't think it has any antioxidant properties. See this.

Any damage you have sustained (important point here is there may not be any) will probably be permanent.

Is damage to serotonergic axons or that due to oxidative stress necessarily irreversible? I wouldn't be so sure, based on the capabilities of some of the substances we're discussing. But I'd be interested in any more definite answers.

[Charmion]

I will echo what Icantgoforthat said; I don't think you have a significant amount of brain damage. You haven't really abused that many substances, and some of them, perhaps the scariest-sounding, (heroin, acid, shrooms) likely left no long term damage. I think what you need at this point is not nootropics but a healthy diet, a good exercise program, sufficient sleep and some modest supplementation. In addition to the multi and the fish oil, I would add 2000 IU of vitamin D3 in an oil-based (softgel) formulation. Ideally you should get your 25-OH-D3 level tested, and shoot for 50ng/ml.

Healthy diet and exercise since about 2-2.5 years ago. Not a problem. Sleep, at least 8, usually 9 hours per night. I'll get some D3; everyone here seems to recommend it, and I've been hearing good things about it elsewhere. To be honest, the nootropics seem to pique my interest in and of themselves, even if I have no brain damage. I've always wanted to get into MENSA...
Anyways, thanks.

+1 especially for diet and exercise. It also might not be a bad idea to start adding blueberries to your regular diet. I prefer Wyman's Wild frozen blueberries. I put them in my protein/wheatgrass smoothie and eat them with plain yogurt and granola-delicious.

Sounds good. I'll see if they carry the wild frozen ones in any stores around here. Thank you.

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine is cheap, yes. But N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate isn't. The arginate group, from what I understand, is necessary for the NGF-mimicing effects (the plan is to use it to complement lion's mane in this respect).

Excellent combination. But no, regular old ALCAR does this too. Arginate supposedly does it better by like 14%, but that claim is based entirely on one test tube study, which left a big question or two unanswered when applied to actual use in the human body. It's probably a better form to take, but if you're strapped for cash (I am too), taking a good dose of ALCAR every day consistently is going to do more for you than taking smaller amounts of Arginate, only when you can afford it.

I've always wondered, though, if cheaper choline sources are just as good as more expensive ones. What's the difference between them?

GPC and CDP have other neurological benefits, beyond increasing ACh levels. There are other threads here that answer this in depth. But they're very expensive, even in bulk. You could get several other things for the cost of this, which will have a more pronounced effect.

Can you tell me what the difference is between lithium orotate and aspartate is, and if they reverse oxidative damage in the brain as well

See this thread for differences. I would (and will soon) go with the aspartate, due to a very slim chance that orotate can accelerate growth of cancer cells.

Lithium promotes neurogenesis (new cell growth), but I don't think it has any antioxidant properties. See this.

I see. Thanks for the info on the ALCAR and lithium.

What is the best "cheaper" choline source in your opinion?

[Logan]

If you live near a CostCo in the U.S. and have a membership, you can buy these blueberries for very cheap. Otherwise, if you have a Wholefoods nearby, this is the only other place I know of that sells these blueberries. Anyway, they are very good for your brain, wild or not. It's just that buying them frozen in the wild form is not only much cheaper than buying fresh blueberries, but they may actually be even healthier.

[chrono]

What is the best "cheaper" choline source in your opinion?

Honestly, I haven't tried any of them myself. Choline bitartrate and lecithin+b6 both have their supporters. Based on the reading I've done, I would try choline bitartrate first, only because I have the impression it was consistently useful for more people.

However, you might not need it at all. I took piracetam for several years without it, and just started to get brain fog when resuming it recently. But I found that ALCAR completely obviates the brain fog/fatigue I was getting, and that adding GPC on top of it gave me some symptoms of choline overload. This might be highly individual, though. Choline bitartrate (or choline/inositol) is widely available locally, so you might want to save your money and see if you actually require it.

[Charmion]

What is the best "cheaper" choline source in your opinion?

Honestly, I haven't tried any of them myself. Choline bitartrate and lecithin+b6 both have their supporters. Based on the reading I've done, I would try choline bitartrate first, only because I have the impression it was consistently useful for more people.

However, you might not need it at all. I took piracetam for several years without it, and just started to get brain fog when resuming it recently. But I found that ALCAR completely obviates the brain fog/fatigue I was getting, and that adding GPC on top of it gave me some symptoms of choline overload. This might be highly individual, though. Choline bitartrate (or choline/inositol) is widely available locally, so you might want to save your money and see if you actually require it.

You say you took Piracetam for years...what if any long-term effects did this give you?

[chrono]

It also might not be a bad idea to start adding blueberries to your regular diet. I prefer Wyman's Wild frozen blueberries. I put them in my protein/wheatgrass smoothie and eat them with plain yogurt and granola-delicious.

I recommend Wyman's also, they taste great. I thaw a little in the microwave on 30% for 1min and have them on oatmeal every morning.

You say you took Piracetam for years...what if any long-term effects did this give you?

I can't say I've noticed any long-term neurological changes. It still feels very much like a "benefits while you are taking it" drug to me. I continue to improve at certain mental tasks like writing and analysis (both of which I do often), so I think piracetam's long-term effects are in helping you learn to utilize your mind better. With a few exceptions (substances which are neuroprotective or increase NGF, for instance) I think the promise of nootropics depends almost entirely upon what you use them to do. A lot like steroids, in a way.


Edit: Just realized I misspoke earlier. B5 is what some people take with lecithin. (All these letters and numbers run together when you do this all day ) Just talked to a friend who started on piracetam recently and got headaches, he takes 2x1200mg lecithin and says it alleviates all problems.

Edited by chrono, 11 April 2010 - 04:39 PM.

[Ethan Snell]

Fish oil is great for supporting brain health. Since the brain is made up of 60 percent fat, the omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil help to support healthy brain functions. I would also suggest you include Vitamins B6 and B12. Vitamin B12 is known to protect the brain from aging or what is called brain atrophy. Antioxidants like Vinpocetine and those found in blueberries help sharpen memory and cognitive skills. Another good nutrient is CoQ10. CoQ10 is a vitamin-like substance that is required by every cell in the body for the production of energy. It is concentrated in organs like the heart, the brain, and the liver as these organs require the most energy for their functions. You might want to consider taking some of these, if not all, to nutritionally maximize mental potential.

[Charmion]

Fish oil is great for supporting brain health. Since the brain is made up of 60 percent fat, the omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil help to support healthy brain functions. I would also suggest you include Vitamins B6 and B12. Vitamin B12 is known to protect the brain from aging or what is called brain atrophy. Antioxidants like Vinpocetine and those found in blueberries help sharpen memory and cognitive skills. Another good nutrient is CoQ10. CoQ10 is a vitamin-like substance that is required by every cell in the body for the production of energy. It is concentrated in organs like the heart, the brain, and the liver as these organs require the most energy for their functions. You might want to consider taking some of these, if not all, to nutritionally maximize mental potential.

Among the nootropics I want to eventually try is Pyritinol, a neuro-enhanced version of vitamin B6 that easily crosses the blood-brain barrier; and methylcobalmin, the same version of B12. Idebenone would be my choice for Q10, and that I will eventually try as well.

[chrono]

I came across this yesterday, thought it was relevant to this treatment course:

Neuritic regeneration and synaptic reconstruction induced by withanolide A.

We investigated whether withanolide A (WL-A), isolated from the Indian herbal drug Ashwagandha (root of Withania somnifera), could regenerate neurites and reconstruct synapses in severely damaged neurons. We also investigated the effect of WL-A on memory-deficient mice showing neuronal atrophy and synaptic loss in the brain. Axons, dendrites, presynapses, and postsynapses were visualized by immunostaining for phosphorylated neurofilament-H (NF-H), microtubule-associated protein 2 (MAP2), synaptophysin, and postsynaptic density-95 (PSD-95), respectively. Treatment with A beta(25-35) (10 microM) induced axonal and dendritic atrophy, and pre- and postsynaptic loss in cultured rat cortical neurons. Subsequent treatment with WL-A (1 microM) induced significant regeneration of both axons and dendrites, in addition to the reconstruction of pre- and postsynapses in the neurons. WL-A (10 micromol kg(-1) day(-1), for 13 days, p.o.) recovered A beta(25-35)-induced memory deficit in mice. At that time, the decline of axons, dendrites, and synapses in the cerebral cortex and hippocampus was almost recovered. WL-A is therefore an important candidate for the therapeutic treatment of neurodegenerative diseases, as it is able to reconstruct neuronal networks.

PMID: 15711595 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by chrono, 18 April 2010 - 11:11 AM.

[Ethan Snell]

Why not include an omega-3 supplement to boost brain power?! I read about omega-3s and their positive impact on brain health. These two articles really got me thinking.

• http://www.naturalnews.com/016353.html
• http://www.scienceda...80709161922.htm

I’ve started taking a triple strength fish oil– one with high potency levels of EPA and DHA. Pharmaceutical grade fish oil ensures you are getting a pure fish oil without any contaminants. Besides, fish oil helps in numerous ways to promote good health so I consider it worth taking!