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Anti Tea Party Hatred


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#61 Lallante

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:34 AM

Just repeating over and over again that government is inherently evil doesn't make it any more correct. Your description could just as easily be corporate behaviour.

Your views are both inherently and internally contradictory.

It turns out you are actually arguing for a free-market economy bound only by "natural law" (which is a hilariously flawed concept by the way - try getting any two people to agree on what natural law dictates).

Finally you claim that individual rights are scientifically verifiable! PLEASE DO EXPLAIN! I'm looking forward to this!


Here are some articles on private law:

http://mises.org/daily/1874
http://mises.org/daily/2265
http://www.mises.org...s/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

But basically the idea is that there is no reason why we need a supreme arbitrator to establish law. I can subscribe to the laws of judicial company A and you can subscribe to those of B. As long as our disputes are among the customers of the same company, there is no problem.

When a customer of company A has a dispute with a customer of company B, there is a potential problem. People know this, and companies know this, so company A and company B will have a list of which third-party arbitrators they will use when their customers run into trouble with customers of other companies.

That is, company A and company B would agree to use company C if their verdicts are in disagreement.

If company A and company B cannot get into an agreement to use C or D or E or any arbitrator, consumers will see this as a potential problem and stop buying their services.

And if this seems like a ridiculous idea, consider that we don't have a supreme arbitrator between countries either.


Firstly, I'm not really sure what this is intended as a reply to.

International arbitration already works kind of like this - it is usually drafted into an (international) contract between companies that in the case of a dispute, the rule of Arbitration of [body X] will apply, and there are several options with different procedures. Admittedly, the differences are procedural, and the law applied is still the law of a country (which is also specified in the contract).

You can also draft a contract to explicitly exclude the effects of certain laws (eg in the UK, the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act, or to amend them or impose differing obligations.

Essentially, most disputes between parties who have previously been in a contractual relationship are already settled by a kind of private law.

The issue is, and always would be that the comment in bold is a complete nonsense. Consumers simply aren't aware of issues like this, or dont understand their significance if they are aware. Furthermore what do you do when someone commits a crime against you under one set of private law that isnt a crime under another set?

Basically your solution doesnt actually solve anything - in areas where it would be useful, it already exists, and for everything else it doesnt work!

Edited by Lallante, 21 April 2010 - 07:35 AM.


#62 Alex Libman

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 10:40 AM

Repetition has absolutely no impact on logical force. [...]


Logic is the one thing that I have on my side, and what I am up against are decades of government brainwashing, not just through one's own "schooling" but also through living in a society that's been indoctrinated over multiple generations, including one's parents, one's spouse, one's friends, etc. People don't like to admit they are wrong, especially when the new ideas, logical though they may be, go completely against a person's current psychological framework.


If anything, the fact that you keep repeating bare assertions ("government is dictatorship" etc... very Orwellian Newspeak!) without justifying them detracts from any logical force your arguments might have - people will just assume that if you wont justify your (fairly ridiculous) claims, this is because you CAN'T justify them.


I don't think I've ever used that very phrase "government is dictatorship", because there are some forms of dictatorship that may be legitimate, like that of a parent over a child or of a prison over a convict (though in both cases the Right to Emancipation should set a counter-balance to that power). The difference between those situations and government is that the authority of a parent or a prison is legitimate, and based on the logic of how potential "rational economic actors" prove themselves worthy or unworthy of full self-ownership. Government's power, to quote Chairman Mao, only grows out of the barrel of a gun.


You are now arbitrarily co-opting definitions to suit yourself. You might as well say "Apples are oranges because when I say oranges I mean apples". A corporation is a specific kind of legal entity with its own legal personality. I assure you that you are not a corporation (though for all I know you have set one up), and nor is a marriage or family.


You are narrowing the definition of a corporation to the current legal code, while the word "corporation" simply means "body" in a legal sense - one or more persons representing a certain interest. Whenever you have two farmers who individually can't afford an ox to plow their fields but join forces and buy an ox to share between them, and want to formalize the agreement so that the rights of each are protected - you have a "corporation". Corporations clearly existed before the current legal code was established, and will continue to exist long after that code is abandoned. In a free society there would be no government-dictated difference between a marriage, a Web-site (which too is a legal entity owned by one or more persons), and a Fortune 500 corporation except the details of the contracts themselves.


I should know, I am a corporate lawyer!


Your knowledge of contemporary legal trivia seems to only be hurting your ability to see the big picture.


(Falling asleep, will finish the later.)

Edited by Alex Libman, 21 April 2010 - 10:40 AM.


#63 Lallante

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 01:07 PM

Look, your argument comes down not just to semantics, but to pushing extremely strained, uncommon and in some cases just plain ridiculous semantic uses of words like corporation (which, as I've explained, is a type of organisation defined by seperate legal personality not simply a "body" as you claim. Where is your definition from? What authority does it have? (I'm going to suggest 'out of your arse' and 'absolutely none' as likely answers.)

You don't have an argument, you have an agenda that you keep repeating ad nauseum without addressing any of the many criticisms raised against it.

Yawn.

Edited by Lallante, 21 April 2010 - 01:08 PM.


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#64 JLL

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 02:12 PM

The issue is, and always would be that the comment in bold is a complete nonsense. Consumers simply aren't aware of issues like this, or dont understand their significance if they are aware.


How do you know that?

Furthermore what do you do when someone commits a crime against you under one set of private law that isnt a crime under another set?


That depends on what your contract says.

#65 Lallante

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 03:04 PM

The issue is, and always would be that the comment in bold is a complete nonsense. Consumers simply aren't aware of issues like this, or dont understand their significance if they are aware.


How do you know that?


Because I'm a lawyer, and I know for a fact that the vast, VAST majority of consumers not only dont read small print (which a point like this essentially be relegated to), but wouldn't understand it if they did. If the fact that major companies get convicted of assasinating labour union leaders in south america doesn't stop consumers buying their products, do you really claim that something as minor as this would?

Furthermore what do you do when someone commits a crime against you under one set of private law that isnt a crime under another set?


That depends on what your contract says.



What if you aren't in a contractual relationship....

#66 eternaltraveler

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:29 PM

Because I'm a lawyer



But really the codified legal definitions of a particular jurisdiction are really not under debate here (as you well know can be quite different from colloquial definitions of the same words). This is a philosophical discussion where such dictates are largely meaningless. What is important is that all parties know what the definitions the other parties are using in this case. You know Alex defines a corporation as a contractual association between parties. He knows you define it as whatever the corporate code of your jurisdiction is. Other than that it is entirely irrelevant. There is no such thing as an absolutely true definition of any word. Language is dynamic.

#67 Alex Libman

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:28 PM

Walmart is not evil, in that you cant ascribe moral values to a corporation any more than you can ascribe them to a building or a cup. It may have (in my opinion, does have) some immoral directors and management though - workers rights are routinely minimised and the way staff are treated would be illegal in Europe.


There is no such thing as "workers rights" (not even if correctly spelled with an apostrophe). There are individual negative Rights, including the right to not sign a contract and to seek employment elsewhere if you don't agree with the terms. Governments already interfere far too much in what should be a private agreement between the employer and the employee, and the vast majority of the time it is the corporation's (that is its owners') rights that are being violated.


You've also just made yet another odd and unexplained assertion re: evil, government force etc - no argument just assertions.


You have been brainwashed to ignore the obvious (a cognitive blind-spot), but 2 + 2 remains 4 no matter how boring this fact may be. The fact remains that government is an institution based on violence, and it stifles scientific inquiry into alternative societal possibilities which definitely are at least theoretically superior. Legitimate legal jurisdiction cannot come from force! (Or does the best fist-fighter in the courtroom automatically become the judge?) That fact supersedes all legal trivia that this government has imposed, just like no possible biblical quotations can possible justify the burning of heretics in the middle ages!


I studied Jurisprudence at Oxford university before becoming a corporate lawyer, so I think I probably am sufficiently educated on this particular topic.


You are making an irrelevant "appeal to authority"... You are not applying for a job to get the government off a corporation's back by the least painful way presently available, for which your expertise would probably be very valuable - you are having a philosophical argument that requires justification of the current legal system's existence in the first place!


The very existence of Natural Law is extremely hotly debated, and the content of it if it does exist even more so. Claiming that natural law principals are obvious and self-evident is an arrogance usually reserved for ideologues and cult leaders.


The existence of Natural Law is self-evident if you understand what Natural Law is - not a human construct, but an economic observation of the universal rules that must govern the interactions between "rational economic actors" in order to maximize the society's long-term evolutionary competitiveness. You can debate whether your existence in this reality is desirable, which is your own choice, but you cannot debate whether this reality exists and the universally-consistent attributes of its existence (unless of course you can show them to be inconsistent).

To say that Natural Law does not exist in the context of mathematics is to say that 2 + 2 adding up to 5 is just as true as 4. The universe will not smite you instantly for having such an erroneous idea, but your application of mathematics would be dysfunctional unless you somehow begin to use arithmetic correctly. If you are trying to fly to the moon and your value of Pi is 3.0, then you won't even be able to manufacture a clock, much less an accurate space guidance system. The better your understanding of mathematics and physics, the better are your chances of getting to the moon.

Likewise, to say that Natural Law does not exist in human context is to say that a society where arbitrary theft, rape, and murder are respected instead of punished would perform just as well economically as a society where the adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle is as wide-spread as is humanly possible. Once again, the universe will not smite you for being false, but your applications of societal laws would be dysfunctional relative to societies that have a better understanding and application of Natural Law.


You realise that even most proponents of natural law would not agree that property was among one's rights...


Humanity's first attempts at scientific thought came from astrologers, alchemists, and witchdoctors, whose theories are entirely discredited by science as we know it today. Disagreements between scientists do not prove that science doesn't exist and whoever holds the biggest stick gets to dictate how reality is to be perceived!

Disagreements between scientists should be addressed by reexamining their premises, conducting better experiments, and making better analysis of the results. Given that opportunity, I would be able to prove that people who reject Property Rights are basing their arguments on their biases and not on objective economic laws (or, conversely, I may be proven wrong and have to adjust my opinions accordingly, as has been the case many times in the past).

My conclusions are already based on centuries of historical evidence demonstrating the benefits of free market capitalism, but even clearer proof would require the ability for more defined experiments, including being able to set up voluntary societies based on the various minarchist (including Georgist, Objectivist, etc) and Anarcho-Capitalist societies and seeing how they perform. That is the opportunity that I am fighting for, and "the powers that be" are fighting to deny, because they understand that their power rests on human ignorance and blind faith that cannot stand the light of science!


I will note though that you say that violently defending your personal property rights is a "triumph of rational people over the irrational". This sounds dangerously close to the language of WWII propaganda and is anything but rational.


The WWII propaganda came from governments, even the best of which violated the Property Rights of their victims by stealing their wealth (including 90% tax brackets and gold confiscation), "drafting" them into the military, and putting the undesirable minorities into concentration camps. You will not find many Anarcho-Capitalists who believe America's involvement in WWII was justifiable, especially if you understand that it actually was one big 30-year war that started as the result of Anglo-American aggression in the beginning of the 20th century against potential competitors like Germany and Japan. Also note that I do believe that the Anglo-American empire was the lesser of the multiple evils in that conflict, but that doesn't make it good.


Don't confuse the philosophical concept of "natural laws" (essentially, the concept of objectively determinable morality) with the scientific concept of "physical laws" - mathematics, physics and so on.


I see that "the mother of all sciences" -- economics -- is entirely off your radar...


Nothing else you wrote is of enough interest of me to write in response to - particularly as you have yet to address a single arguement I've raised and instead just type more and more half-baked right wing ideology.


I should start keeping track of how many times I've been called "left wing" or "right wing" in any given week and try to balance them out. Looks like I'll be spending the next week ignoring economic freedom and going full-hog on gay marriage (or marriage just being a voluntary contract between any number of adults of any possible genders), decriminalization of all victimless crimes (including child porn), open borders, abortion, atheism, multiculturalism, The Pirate Bay, open source software, veganism, 9/11 conspiracy theories (they still count as left-wring, right?), peacemongering, and generally trying to recapture my "Bush derangement syndrome" of just a few years ago... :|w


I'll leave you with yet another criticism of your system - the problem of the 'race to the bottom'. [...]


Your ignorance of basic economics is staggering...

That beneficial natural economic phenomenon should rightfully be called "the race to help the poorest" - why would people agree to work in sweatshops if they had a better alternative? The alternative to child labor and sweatshops is even greater rural poverty, starvation, child prostitution, and violence! As those poor people work their way up they gain a competitive advantage over totally unskilled workers elsewhere, and the most dismal jobs will move there instead, while the original sweatshops are gradually replaced with ever-more desirable and higher-paying industries. Places that had sweatshops and relative economic freedom 1-2 generations ago have skyscrapers and world-leading corporations today!

Thus the "race" is to elevate the "bottom" upward, until all regions of the world are able to raise their productivity levels to the point where they can send their children to school, buy them computers, and make them competitive with children born in the first world on the basis of merit, just like when working through Internet-based brokerage sites I compete for projects bids dollar-by-dollar with people in India, Nigeria, Malaysia, and all other parts of the world!

The only thing government interventionism brings is institutionalized theft, unemployment, dependency, inefficiency, corruption, stagnation, prolonged economic backwardness, and needless human suffering with no end in sight!




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