16 replies to this topic

[e Volution]

Hi Guys,

As the title suggests, I just received my first order of Nootropics. I am curious about your very informed opinions on how I should begin using them, what to start with, how long before introducing next item, what to be mindful of, and any other advices you can give this newbie... My goals are brain health, and optimising of brain function. I am currently working 20-30+ hours/week and studying a masters degree. Already taking plenty of Fish Oil. Diet is fantastic. Exercising regularly. No real cognitive issues, apart from always running on not enough sleep which I am trying to correct (without coffee!). I have taken various illegal hard drugs in the past, but not currently (and never excessively!). I do smoke Marijuana occasionally, drink moderately and even less occasionally.

Here is what I got:
Lithium 5 mg (from 125 mg lithium orotate)
Piracetam (relentlessimprovement) 800mg
CDP Choline 250 mg

Jarrow Formulas, Neuro Optimizer:
Folic Acid 400 mcg
CDP Choline 300 mg
Phosphatidylserine (PS) 100 mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine 500 mg
L-Glutamine 500 mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 50 mg
Taurine 500 mg
Phosphatidylcholine 135 mg
^^ This is not mine, I bought for a friend I live with but can have as much as I desire (and as you may be able to tell already contemplating it )

Could be considered Nootropicish but I got for various other reasons such as sleep or just pure experimentation:
Taurine 500 mg
L-Glycine 1000mg
L-Tryptophan 500 mg
Jarrow Formulas B-Right


Currently I am leaning towards the Lithium 5mg/day first as this is the supplement I am most sold on in terms of the science and a possibility of including it in my regimen for life. Everything else on the list I am considering a safe experiment, and depending on how I react to them will dictate their possible inclusion/exclusion after they run out. I was also looking to start the Taurine, Glycine, and Tryptophan pronto for sleep health. Would this possibly confound any results from my nootropic stack?

Thanks!

[chrono]

Well, welcome! Though you already have 200 posts here

In general, I would recommend adding things one at a time, or trying them alone if it doesn't cause a disruption to your stack (e.g., you can take a little time off from piracetam without much, if any, detriment to its effect, but stay on lithium as it's unlikely to interact strongly with most other cognitive enhancers). How long to give it really depends on individual substances. But I'd say a week is a good minimum to get used to how a particular substance/mix will affect you, to give you an idea of how variables like dosage, time of day, stomach contents, tiredness, etc. might impact it. If you notice anything that gives you pause, an adverse effect or a question about the dosage, it's worth ironing out before you add more substances. Sounds like you have some patience for experimentation, which is great, it really helps when deciding when/how to use these things in the long haul.

I've found it useful to keep a brief log, especially when starting something new. For example, with piracetam, having a few months' worth of observations based on dosage and scheduling really helped me to figure out the best way to tailor it to my needs, and to obviate a few negative sides that cropped up. It is possible to scrutinize your reactions too closely, so just be relaxed about it and jot down observations as they naturally occur to you—"noticed today I found it much easier to quickly think of synonyms," or maybe a brief review at the end of the day.

Personally I'd avoid mixes like you mention, they're probably helpful, but it sounds like you have the temperament necessary to analyze these elements separately, and weave the elements together based on what you need.


As for specifics, I'd add magnesium to help a lot with sleep, as well as a variety of systemic support functions. I'm experimenting with magnesium taurate right now, and just discovered that a dosage of over 2g taurine causes significant somnolence and brain fog throughout the next day. So I'd see if 1g helps, and go from there.

[spider]

Yes, keeping a nootropics log for yourself is a great suggestion of Chrono. Since a few years I have been keeping one myself. I found it very useful to make conclusions later on.

[e Volution]

So I have started with Lithium 5 mg/day in the morning on an empty stomach for 1 week... No noticeable effects!

The problem is I have trouble subjectively assessing any difference in mental feeling. Between the increased likelyhood of the placebo effect on cognitive supplements, and the general large variance in how I feel day to day anyway (due to lack or abundance of sleep/study/work/stress/girls/etc), I just cannot pinpoint any strong differences. Some times I've taken Lithium in the morning it has been on 5-6 hours sleep and with a full day of work and then University ahead of me. Other times has been after a beautiful 9-10 hours (wake up on own accord not alarm) sleep with a relaxing day of study and socialising.

How do you guys reconcile this problem I am having? Will it be potentially trumped by stronger nootropics like Piracetam & CDP Choline combo?

[e Volution]

Also I will soon commence taking Piracetam & CDP Choline, and I have a few questions:

1. Should I remove the confounding variable that is Lithium?

2. Should these two be introduced together? I am pretty conservative; would it be worth introducing just Piracetam OR CDP Choline first?

3. Is it worth additionally taking any (full/partial dose) of Neuro Optimizer (Acetyl L-Carnitine, L-Glutamine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidylcholine) at the same time...? Or would this even be a worthy trial on its own?

Edited by icantgoforthat, 15 April 2010 - 03:52 AM.

[chrono]

I haven't started lithium yet, but from what I've read I'm not expecting any strong effects. Some people report a reduction in stress at 5mg, more of a mellow feeling. morganator mentioned that it can take up to 2 weeks for effects to become clear, though. I haven't seen all that much said about cognitive enhancement.

Here's a meta-analysis of lithium's effect on cognition (though keep in mind most or all of the lithium patients in these studies were being treated for affective disorders, so the dosage would be much higher than our 5mg):

Effects of lithium on cognitive performance: a meta-analysis.

BACKGROUND: Cognitive impairment is underrecognized among patients with bipolar disorder and may represent not only effects of the illness but also adverse effects of its treatments. Among these, lithium is the best-studied mood stabilizer. As its cognitive effects are mixed and not well-known, we assessed reported effects of lithium on cognitive performance.
...
Overall, lithium treatment was associated with small but significant impairment in immediate verbal learning and memory (ES = 0.24; 95% CI, 0.05-0.43) and creativity (ES = 0.33; 95% CI, 0.02-0.64), whereas delayed verbal memory, visual memory, attention, executive function, processing speed, and psychomotor performance were not significantly affected. Selectively, among the 326 affective-disorder patients, in addition to these overall impairments, long-term lithium treatment also was associated with even greater impairment in psychomotor performance (ES = 0.62; 95% CI, 0.27-0.97), with no evidence of cognitive improvements. CONCLUSIONS: Lithium treatment appears to have only few and minor negative effects on cognition.

PMID: 19689922 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

As another paper (18781296) suggests, any short-term cognitive enhancement is probably due to alleviation of symptoms which interfere with cognition.

So I wouldn't see this as "competing" with piracetam. I would advise adding just piracetam first, so you can see how it affects you, and see what dosages make sense. Wait to see if any brain fog/headache symptoms appear, then start adding CDP choline.

ALCAR/ALA works very well with piracetam, but I haven't tried the other substances in that cocktail. I'd wait until you have the piracetam situation sorted, though there are enough choline supplements in that pill that you might have trouble taking it on top of CDP choline, depending on what the dosages and your individual responses are like.

[Guacamolium]

Also I will soon commence taking Piracetam & CDP Choline, and I have a few questions:

1. Should I remove the confounding variable that is Lithium?

2. Should these two be introduced together? I am pretty conservative; would it be worth introducing just Piracetam OR CDP Choline first?

3. Is it worth additionally taking any (full/partial dose) of Neuro Optimizer (Acetyl L-Carnitine, L-Glutamine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidylcholine) at the same time...? Or would this even be a worthy trial on its own?

I found LithiumO to be the complete blase sort of cognitive enhancer. I naturally am a very sped-up person, and it made me mellow hardcore. My only success with it is about 6-7 hours before sleeping ONLY to retrieve its NGF benefit, which is just not very compatible with my lifestyle. On the other side; my best friend is the opposite of me where he thrives on excitement-type cognitive enhancers, yet lithiumO he likes during waking hours.

What sense I can make of that I don't really know, but from my experience; if stimulants get you in your game rather than depressants, lithiumO is worth a shot.

Depressants seem to give me the "Eureka" moments, more so than stimulants. Just my 2 cents - best of luck.

[chrono]

I found LithiumO to be the complete blase sort of cognitive enhancer. I naturally am a very sped-up person, and it made me mellow hardcore. My only success with it is about 6-7 hours before sleeping ONLY to retrieve its NGF benefit, which is just not very compatible with my lifestyle. On the other side; my best friend is the opposite of me where he thrives on excitement-type cognitive enhancers, yet lithiumO he likes during waking hours.

What sense I can make of that I don't really know, but from my experience; if stimulants get you in your game rather than depressants, lithiumO is worth a shot.

Can you clarify if lithium has a stimulating or relaxing effect? And are you talking emotionally, mentally, physically?

[e Volution]

Update (~6 months later):

I went on and off Piracetam a few times due to not noticing any drastic changes in cognition, but my baseline Nootropic regimen settled into:

9am:
ALCAR (500mg-1000mg)
Piracetam (800mg-1600mg)
CDP Choline (250mg-500mg)

5pm:
ALCAR (500mg-1000mg)
Piracetam (800mg-1600mg)

Midnight:
Lithium (~5mg)
Taurine (1000mg)
Magnesium (400mg)
Melatonin (500mcg as required)

Most recently I kept up this regimen for a solid couple of months up until now when I ran out of Piracetam. I played around with the dosages, at various times doubling one or all supplements, but honestly I never felt any dramatic differences in my subjective feeling of cognition (nothing that couldn't potentially be attributed to Placebo). However after having ceased Piracetam I do now possibly notice a diminished ability in general cognition especially language related tasks. Once again however I've read so many anecdotal reports on this forum and elsewhere of these effects of Piracetam that I would not feel at all confident disentangling the real vs imagined changes (and likely I probably experienced a bit of both).

My Nootropic regimen is now as above minus Piracetam. I will be ordering some more soon as I am not finished experimenting with it yet! Next up my New Experiment...

[e Volution]

New Experiment(s):
I am now starting a new experiment with various potential "mood enhancing" nootropics including:

St. John's Wort (Abkit, Kira)
Gotu Kola (Nature's Way)
Lemon Balm (Nature's Way Melissa Leaves)
Kava (Random)
Ashwagandha (Jarrows)
5-HTP (NOW)
SAM-e (Doctor's Best)
Ginkgo (Nature's Way Ginkgold)
L-Theanine (Source Naturals)
L-Tyrosine (NOW)
GABA (NOW)
Rhodiola (AOR)
Bacopa (AOR)
Phenibut (Relentless Improvement)
Phenylethylamine (NEURVANA)

Yes, I went ahead and ordered all of these supplements in one go I know I could have tried one by one but that's not how I work, I am an ex-programmer and the logical and 'boundary testing' thinking has stayed with me (ok really I probably always thought like this and thus drove me to programming, correlation vs causation, yada yada).

ANYWAY, I have two objectives:
1) General Mood Enhancement: Growing up I suffered from medium-level Social Anxiety --never diagnosed or treated-- however I have mostly corrected this through self-targeted behavioural therapy (basically the Pickup community, forced public speaking, self-help type stuff, and clubs/bars whilst far too intoxicated) and possibly I just 'grew out of it' to some extent. However in certain circumstances the underlying anxiety is still present to some degree and I have just become good at recognising it and overcoming or ignoring it. But I beleive this then carries over to my motivation or will to socialise being diminished compared to my peers. In addition I don't derive the same level of emotional reward from many social interactions as my friends (obviously my subjective assessment). Finally I do have some attention & focus related issues, nothing major but certainly something I recognise as having room for improvement. I want to be clear I am not trying to change my personality, I am extremely happy with myself and my life, and I am actually very thankful I have some ADD/OCD/Introverted tendencies because they led me on a chain of events to ultimately become one of the very small subset of the population (like you) that found ImmInst--a hugely positive alteration to my outlook on life and how I will proceed through it. However I love to experiment, and I do recognise we are social animals and perhaps my natural tendencies to socialisation are below the optimal level I would derive most happiness from. OK I hope that didn't sound too much like babble (just coming off Piracetam, ha)!

2) Short-term Pro-Social Reduced-Inhibition Anxiolytic: I have begun a quest to replace Alcohol as my end-of-week psychoactive socialising drug. I am already a low to moderate drinker (once a week on average) but I am still at times binging (10+ drinks, often more ) which I really want to get away from with a new focus on health and longevity. And while I enjoy the results of being intoxicated, I have never really enjoyed being drunk THAT much, certainly don't get the level of positive feeling I know many people do. The problem is all of my friends drink, the social conventions are in place and not about to change, and I refuse to be the teetotaler. Firstly, it is probably my biggest hate in the world being sober around intoxicated friends (I know am not alone here!) but also I do enjoy altering my state of consciousness occasionally. I understand the risks going down this road and potential slippery slope but I have done the cost/benefit analysis and wish to pursue it...

So... The advice I am looking for is How to proceed? What to try first? Seeking recommendations and guidance, thank you!

[OpaqueMind]

First off I wanna say, how can you afford all this as a student?! I'm in the same boat man but I'm on a shoestring budget of beans and booze
If you don't mind me asking where did you get them from and what was the overall price?

And I have tried a few of these, in tandem and in solo. SJW wort worked well for me in the sense of helping me to come out of my sometimes impenetrable shell of introspection. I also like 5htp and L-tyrosine for normal or slightly above normal background levels of dopamine and serotonin. Ginkgo is okay but in conjunction with Piracetam it made my head feel very weird, but that could just be me. No perceived benefit from it but I don't take it consistently enough to justify saying don't try it out. And I've heard Phenibut is good for SA but can be addicting, I'd cycle that one on your trials. I'm also interested in SAMe as I've read that it increases Sero/Dopa receptor density, which might indicate that it's effects last beyond treatment - but I'm not a neuroscientist so don't quote me on that

Good luck man and I look forward to a comprehensive review in the future

[e Volution]

@OpaqueMind Thanks man! I am a working student, so I do have a good regular income. However I couldn't really afford it lol, I am now broke for the rest of the week With a bunch of other supplements (D, Mag, K, Fish Oil, etc) the order cost me ~$250! Chump change for exploring my mind and living pretty to 100 and beyond!

Can a Nootropics Guru please weigh in on this for me!? I'm paralysed with choice!

Edited by e Volution, 13 October 2010 - 04:54 AM.

[aLurker]

Try the Rhodiola alone first, great mood enhancer but subject to tolerance, at least that's my experience. You should notice the effects pretty quickly and they should peak within days. A lot of the other stuff takes much more time to notice an effect.

[e Volution]

Update: Last night 500mg Phenibut (on empty stomach): No noticeable effect. I timed it ~3 hours before going to a friends art show, no perceivable change in social interaction or feeling, even when accompanied by two glasses of red wine whilst there also.

@aLurker Rhodiola it is! I will start tomorrow at 150mg (3% rosavins,1% salidroside,~0.1% p-tyrosol) on an empty stomach in the morning with coffee... Would anyone recommend a re-dosing once or twice throughout the day? And could ALCAR potentially confound any perceived effects when starting Rhodiola or any other supplements (I don't really feel it--maybe a little extra kick/alertness in the morning). I am very sold on ALCAR however so perhaps it doesn't matter because it is here to stay and all other supps need to work with/around it.

Also moving forward I will put in place a strict protocol of bracketing any new experiments with objective 1 (general mood enhancement) with experiments in objective 2 (replacing alcohol) by at least two days of separation to avoid any potential post-consumption/rebound effects from the latter which may confound any perceived results.

[e Volution]

Update: Over a week daily dosing with Rhodiola (AOR @ 150mg) 1-3 times per day. Subjective effects are mild; possibly a slight potentiating of alertness/wakefulness & mood in the morning when taken with 1g ALCAR and ~200mg Caffeine. Additional re-dosing experimented with to greater elucidate any effect. Do not feel as thought any effects carried over to social interactions however.

Stand alone the effects are not great enough to warranty inclusion in my daily regimen (cost will be an issue for the near future). So two questions:
1. Can the effects build up for Rhodiola (I am reading mixed info on this)?
2. What supplement from the list outlined earlier would be worth introducing next to possibly create some synergy? Or would best practice be to discontinue Rhodiola when starting the next experiment and then leave potentiation/synergy of multiple compounds as a final experiment once all compounds have been tested individually?

Thanks!

Edited by e Volution, 22 October 2010 - 12:57 AM.

[jadamgo]

Suggestion: phenethylamine supplementation is a tricky business. It's not the sort of thing you should just pour in a capsule and start titrating up until you feel it. For supplementation to be effective, you'll need to use it together with an MAO-B inhibitor such as selegiline, and then, only use LOW doses of it. It's possible to get "high" with phenethylamine by itself in crazy doses, or in lower doses when combined together with selegiline. But it's not worth your time, and people around here keep indicating that one should stay away from it. (That said, I've yet to encounter empirical evidence of damage from PEA abuse. But there seem to be plenty of "I abused PEA by taking enough to get high, and now I'm fucked up" threads here and elsewhere.)

If you decide to use it, use no more than 60mg a day, divided into 3-5 separate doses. Really, you can start with 20mg a day and you're very likely to encounter results. Especially if you're doing it for general mood elevation, instead of trying to treat actual clinical depression.

This is a cool thread, and I hope you keep us posted on what you're finding out!

[yustas]

@aLurker Rhodiola it is! I will start tomorrow at 150mg (3% rosavins,1% salidroside,~0.1% p-tyrosol) on an empty stomach in the morning with coffee... Would anyone recommend a re-dosing once or twice throughout the day? And could ALCAR potentially confound any perceived effects when starting Rhodiola or any other supplements (I don't really feel it--maybe a little extra kick/alertness in the morning). I am very sold on ALCAR however so perhaps it doesn't matter because it is here to stay and all other supps need to work with/around it.

Also moving forward I will put in place a strict protocol of bracketing any new experiments with objective 1 (general mood enhancement) with experiments in objective 2 (replacing alcohol) by at least two days of separation to avoid any potential post-consumption/rebound effects from the latter which may confound any perceived results.

Therapeutic dose for tyrosol in Russia is 8 mg for 100 kg men per day. But in Rhodiola root there are many other bioactive substances. So for the first step I would begin from the dose with 450 - 600 mg per a day...