41 replies to this topic

[browser]

This is a repost. The first post of this topic disappeared about 10 minutes after being posted.


My PSA rose 28% during the period I took

- 8 Longevinex (4 weeks)
- 8 Longevinex + 8 grams Quercetin (4 weeks)
- 4 Nitro 250 + 4 MCT Quercetin + 8 grams Quercetin during the rest of the day (4 weeks)
- 12 Nitro 250 + 12 MCT Quercetin + 8 grams Quercetin during the rest fo the day (4 weeks)

My PSA and been gradually dropping and my symptoms had been abating on the twice weekly 75 grams Vitamin C IV and 500 mg. per kg. IP6+Inositol without any of the above.

Other prostate cancer patients, who have already been treated with surgery, radiation and ADT and not on chemo (which Vitamin C IVs can be considered) have told me that they noticed that their PSA rose while taking the 2 Nitro 250s + 2 MCT Quercetins Dr. Snuffy Myers, the noted Prostate Cancer oncologist recommends. These patients have stopped taking Resveratrol. My doctor reported the negative results of taking Resveratrol + Quercetin with prostate cancer to Dr. Myers

I am now asymptomatic as I've not been in 10 years since I began taking for the past 3 weeks:

2 adult aspirins with a glass of grapefruit juice upon arising

20-30 minutes later an emulsion containing

- 1/4 cup coconut oil
- 20 mg. Bioperine
- 20 grams Resveratrol (from Vitaspace)
- 12.5 grams Curcumin (from Vitamspace)
- 1.25 grams sodium ascorbate
- 1,000 IU Vitamin E

The above is blended in a powerful, high speed blender for an hour the night before than blended the next morning with a glass of grapefruit juice for 20-30 minutes, hopefully micronizing and suspending the paste created the night before. The drink is tolerable but there are very disruptive GI disturbances for about 6 hours after downing it. I also stuff Resveratrol (from Vitaspace) between my gums and cheeks from arising to Noon. I'm awaiting 20 mg. Resveratrol lozenges. When they arrive, I'll switch to the lozenges for buccal and sublingual delivery.

It's possible I'm just symptom free because Resveratrol is an anti-inflamatory. I have used special toothpaste for sensitive teeth for years. I recently stopped using the toothpaste and only use an electric toothbrush. When I've done this in the past, my teeth became painfully sensitive to hot and cold. That has not happened this time. I suspect the Resveratrol in my mouth all morning has something to do with this. If my symptoms have gone away from anti-inflammatory effects of the Resveratrol, then why did my symptoms get worse before going to the very high dose of Resveratrol? Curcumin is also an anti-inflammatory. I'll have more of an indication of what's really happening when I get extensive blood work at the end of the month. It's too early for another PSA test but perhaps my doctor and I will get an idea which direction my prostate cancer growth is going.

Edited by browser, 14 April 2010 - 12:36 AM.

[niner]

So you're still taking resveratrol, but now you're asymptomatic. Hmm. One of the major things that changed in your regimen is quercetin. Maybe quercetin (or some other component of the original regimen) is the problem.

[browser]

So you're still taking resveratrol, but now you're asymptomatic. Hmm. One of the major things that changed in your regimen is quercetin. Maybe quercetin (or some other component of the original regimen) is the problem.

Perhaps the Quercetin. But I'm thinking more that Resveratrol promotes longevity of cells up to a certain dosage. Above that dose it promotes apoptosis. This is why I maxed out on the amount of Resveratrol I'm takng. I don't like the idea of taking sodium ascorbate and Vitamin E but I need something to protect the Curcumin. Note that I'm not promoting R+C. Until I get my blood work back, I could just be enjoying anti-inflammatory action.

The thing is that the noted prostate cancer oncologist recommends R+Q and that's not working out for us prostate cancer patients, it appears.

[david ellis]

- 1/4 cup coconut oil
- 20 mg. Bioperine
- 20 mg. Resveratrol (from Vitaspace)
- 12.5 mg. Curcumin (from Vitamspace)
- 1.25 grams sodium ascorbate
- 1,000 IU Vitamin E

Are some of the mg quantities gram quantities?

[browser]

- 1/4 cup coconut oil
- 20 mg. Bioperine
- 20 mg. Resveratrol (from Vitaspace)
- 12.5 mg. Curcumin (from Vitamspace)
- 1.25 grams sodium ascorbate
- 1,000 IU Vitamin E

Are some of the mg quantities gram quantities?

Thanks. Fixed that. I was able to edit the post. I've not been able to edit a post after a few minutes have gone by even if no one replied. Now I can. Good.

[eason]

I think you were cautioned about taking 20 grams daily before... have you not read the studies showing numerous deleterious effects on supra high dose resveratrol? I don't want to be accusatory, but maybe you need to realize what you are doing: taking 20 grams daily is, quite frankly, crazy.

[browser]

I think you were cautioned about taking 20 grams daily before... have you not read the studies showing numerous deleterious effects on supra high dose resveratrol? I don't want to be accusatory, but maybe you need to realize what you are doing: taking 20 grams daily is, quite frankly, crazy.

Perhaps I should have surgery, ADT or chemo? No danger there, is there? From surgery, metastasis, incontinence, impotence and the risks of surgery. From ADT, osteoperosis, stroke, heart attack. And from chemo?

I was cautioned about taking the 8 capsules a day of Longevinex by Bill Sardi (though he supplied the Longevinex) as terrible things would happen to me. They didn't.

IMO you are being accusatory. I intend to live long enough so that dying from prostate cancer is a distinct possibility. Thank you for your support in this matter.

Edited by browser, 14 April 2010 - 01:50 AM.

[2tender]

Browser, please clear this up. Is your regimen working as a benefit? Is it making it worse? Are you answering yes to all questions? Thanks

[eason]

I think you were cautioned about taking 20 grams daily before... have you not read the studies showing numerous deleterious effects on supra high dose resveratrol? I don't want to be accusatory, but maybe you need to realize what you are doing: taking 20 grams daily is, quite frankly, crazy.

Perhaps I should have surgery, ADT or chemo? No danger there, is there? From surgery, metastasis, incontinence, impotence and the risks of surgery. From ADT, osteoperosis, stroke, heart attack. And from chemo?

I was cautioned about taking the 8 capsules a day of Longevinex by Bill Sardi (though he supplied the Longevinex) as terrible things would happen to me. They didn't.

IMO you are being accusatory. I intend to live long enough so that dying from prostate cancer is a distinct possibility. Thank you for your support in this matter.

Well, initially browsing the thread, it looks like you were accusing resveratrol of giving you prostate cancer, at which point you upped the dose to 20 grams. Is there another thread or some bit of information that you haven't posted? Because this thread is highly confusing.

[2tender]

Browser, please clarify here. Yes, the regimen is working; or No, the regimen is making it worse. Thanks

[niner]

So you're still taking resveratrol, but now you're asymptomatic. Hmm. One of the major things that changed in your regimen is quercetin. Maybe quercetin (or some other component of the original regimen) is the problem.

Perhaps the Quercetin. But I'm thinking more that Resveratrol promotes longevity of cells up to a certain dosage. Above that dose it promotes apoptosis. This is why I maxed out on the amount of Resveratrol I'm takng. I don't like the idea of taking sodium ascorbate and Vitamin E but I need something to protect the Curcumin. Note that I'm not promoting R+C. Until I get my blood work back, I could just be enjoying anti-inflammatory action.

Resveratrol is an aromatase inhibitor and also suppresses aromatase expression. While it's not particularly potent, the activity is seen in vitro at concentrations that are not wildly different than pharmacological concentrations. Aromatase inhibition has been shown to increase testosterone significantly in older men. There has been at least one report here of increased libido in males taking resveratrol. This is at least a plausible mechanism for resveratrol to bump up PSA in an androgen sensitive cancer.

Toxicol Sci. 2006 Jul;92(1):71-7. Epub 2006 Apr 11.
The red wine polyphenol resveratrol displays bilevel inhibition on aromatase in breast cancer cells.

Wang Y, Lee KW, Chan FL, Chen S, Leung LK.

Department of Biochemistry and Department of Anatomy, The Chinese University of Hong Kong, Shatin, N.T., Hong Kong.
Abstract

Estrogen plays a crucial role in the development of breast cancer, and the inhibition of estrogen synthesis has been an important target for the prevention and treatment of this disease. The rate-limiting reaction of the hormone biosynthesis is catalyzed by cytochrome P450 (CYP) 19 enzyme or aromatase. It has been of genuine interest to uncover an aromatase-inhibitory compound from a dietary source. Resveratrol is a polyphenolic compound that can be isolated from grape peel. Because of its structural resemblance to estrogen, resveratrol's agonistic and antagonistic properties on estrogen receptor have been examined and demonstrated. In the present study, the effect of resveratrol on the expression and enzyme activity of aromatase was investigated. By assaying on MCF-7 cells stably transfected with CYP19 (MCF-7aro cells), resveratrol inhibited the aromatase activity with an IC(50) value of 25 microM. Kinetic analysis indicated that both competitive and noncompetitive inhibition might be involved. The administration of 10 nmol/l testosterone-a substrate of aromatase-produced a 50% increase in the MCF-7aro cell number. This cell proliferation specifically induced by testosterone was significantly reduced by 10 microM resveratrol. In addition, 50 microM resveratrol significantly reduced the CYP19-encoding mRNA abundance in SK-BR-3 cells. The transcriptional control of CYP19 gene is tissue specific, and promoter regions I.3 and II have previously been shown to be responsible for CYP19 expression in breast cancer cells. Luciferase reporter gene assays revealed that resveratrol could repress the transcriptional control dictated by the promoter regulation. The present study illustrated that pharmacological dosage of resveratrol inhibited aromatase at both the enzyme and mRNA levels.

PMID: 1661162

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Free Full Text
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.

Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.

Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.
Abstract

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.

PMID: 15001605

[browser]

Browser, please clear this up. Is your regimen working as a benefit? Is it making it worse? Are you answering yes to all questions? Thanks

My original regimen, various supplements (including lithium) suggested by Stephen Martin, Ph.D., my bio-identical cream (one property of which is to prevent formation of Estradiol and DHT), my Vitamin C IVs and IP6+Inositol had my PSA going down and my symptoms abating. Then came the Longevinex and Revgenetics' Resveratrol and first only supplemental Quercetin then supplemental Quercetin plus MCT Quercetin. From 800 to 3,000 mg. of Resveratrol. That made symptoms return and my PSA rise. Now I am symptom free and very happy about that, as I've not been symptom free for 10 years (my PCa was continuously misdiagnosed until December of 2008). I don't know what my PSA is doing. One should measure PSA only once every 3 months. My doctor's in a hurry and I'll be having a PSA test sooner. Then I'll know whether I've done myself more damage with the Resveratrol and now Curcumin or if I'm on the right track.

I urge other cancer patients to heed my warnings and also read this thread.

[2tender]

Browser, please clear this up. Is your regimen working as a benefit? Is it making it worse? Are you answering yes to all questions? Thanks

My original regimen, various supplements (including lithium) suggested by Stephen Martin, Ph.D., my bio-identical cream (one property of which is to prevent formation of Estradiol and DHT), my Vitamin C IVs and IP6+Inositol had my PSA going down and my symptoms abating. Then came the Longevinex and Revgenetics' Resveratrol and first only supplemental Quercetin then supplemental Quercetin plus MCT Quercetin. From 800 to 3,000 mg. of Resveratrol. That made symptoms return and my PSA rise. Now I am symptom free and very happy about that, as I've not been symptom free for 10 years (my PCa was continuously misdiagnosed until December of 2008). I don't know what my PSA is doing. One should measure PSA only once every 3 months. My doctor's in a hurry and I'll be having a PSA test sooner. Then I'll know whether I've done myself more damage with the Resveratrol and now Curcumin or if I'm on the right track.

I urge other cancer patients to heed my warnings and also read this thread.

So, you are saying, yes, its working as far as you know and feel?

[Anthony_Loera]

Browser,
I am trying to make this less confusing:

1- I would suggest the title be changed to something like: "Resveratrol + Quercetin combination appears to have promoted a higher PSA score in my situation."
2- You said the your PSA score was measured after you intake of resveratrol + quercetin combo. Your PSA rose 28% according to your post.
3- You said that on March 17th you got your PSA scores. For this period you had been taking 8 weeks of Longevinex, and 11 days of the Nitro250, and agreed with Maxwatt that the Quercetin had to be dropped, while adding Curcumin to the regimen. (http://www.imminst.o...20)
4- You continued to use Nitro250 (possibly stopping MCT Quercetin at this time because of item 3 above) until March 26th. You started your emulsion on March 27th.
5- You said that your new resveratrol emulsion was making you better on March 31, while you had just started taking it on March 27. This appears to be 4 days (or much more if you count the Nitro mentioned in item 4 above.)
6- You said that after 3 weeks of taking the resveratrol emulsion, you are 'Symptom Free' while at the same time your PSA has not been tested (so you aren't sure, and are hoping for good PSA scores).

7- The emulsion that you currently take includes 20 grams of resveratrol. You take this daily, however you stopped taking Quercetin.

I do hope your next PSA scores show an improvement Browser.

(Let's all remember that PSA scores does not necessarily mean you have cancer, so you need to consult your medical professional if you have questions about your own health.)

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 14 April 2010 - 04:26 AM.

[2tender]

I would like a topic change also, please. I think its mis-leading. More clarity is better here, Browser, I know you may not have all the answers yet and I do hope the next prognosis is much better.

[mikeinnaples]

Posting this from another thread, it may not be relevant for this particular issue, however the philosophy behind why I am reposting it is.....


http://carcin.oxford.../full/25/9/1611

"Our results show that curcumin impairs the folding of p53 into the conformation required for its phosphorylation, its binding to DNA and its transactivation of genes that execute its tumor suppression function. These results are consistent with the observations that curcumin exhibits a modest carcinogenic risk (19) and antagonizes apoptosis induced by p53-dependent chemotherapeutic agents used for breast cancer (22). Thus, curcumin joins a growing list of moderately electrophilic agents that impair tumor suppressor p53 function (23,26,36). It is noteworthy that repression of NF-{kappa}B by curcumin also depends on its electrophilic substitutents and their chemical reactivity (11). Thus, any beneficial effect of curcumin, derived from its repression of NF-{kappa}B (4), may be inseparable from potentially harmful effects derived from its repression of p53. While the genotoxic effects described here still need to be demonstrated in vivo, we suggest that further studies are needed to determine whether curcumin is a carcinogen or a tumor promoter in animal experiments."

Edited by mikeinnaples, 14 April 2010 - 11:40 AM.

[maxwatt]

I changed the title of this topic to more accurately reflect what can be shown from information given, and not to protect Anthony, resveratrol or anything else. I hope Browser does not mind the name change to his topic.

There exist no medical protocols for the treatment of any cancer by resveratrol or other phyto-chemicals. Browser's hypothesis that res is pro-cancer cell survival in some contexts (low doses), and anti-cancer at high doses is certainly quite plausible but not yet proven.

That Curcumin inhibits P53 deacetylization as mikeinnaples pointed out in the previous post is bad news in the case of P53 dependent cancers. Resveratrol agonizes P53, so the two would seem to be working at cross purposes; resveratrol may cancel out the pro-cancer effect of curcumin on these kinds of cancer. Again, no tested protocol exists. Many multiple-myeloma patients have reported relief from curcumin use. I believe there was one study showing some positive effect, but inconsistent and far from a cure. This is different than prostate cancer in any case.

We think some things may fight cancer, and throw them all at it at once int he hope that something will work.

Good night and good luck.

[browser]

Browser, please clear this up. Is your regimen working as a benefit? Is it making it worse? Are you answering yes to all questions? Thanks

My original regimen, various supplements (including lithium) suggested by Stephen Martin, Ph.D., my bio-identical cream (one property of which is to prevent formation of Estradiol and DHT), my Vitamin C IVs and IP6+Inositol had my PSA going down and my symptoms abating. Then came the Longevinex and Revgenetics' Resveratrol and first only supplemental Quercetin then supplemental Quercetin plus MCT Quercetin. From 800 to 3,000 mg. of Resveratrol. That made symptoms return and my PSA rise. Now I am symptom free and very happy about that, as I've not been symptom free for 10 years (my PCa was continuously misdiagnosed until December of 2008). I don't know what my PSA is doing. One should measure PSA only once every 3 months. My doctor's in a hurry and I'll be having a PSA test sooner. Then I'll know whether I've done myself more damage with the Resveratrol and now Curcumin or if I'm on the right track.

I urge other cancer patients to heed my warnings and also read this thread.

So, you are saying, yes, its working as far as you know and feel?

I am saying that NO before dropping the Quercetin, bumping up the dose of Resveratrol and adding Quercetin, it wasn't working as far as I know and feel. I am saying now that I've dropped the Quercetin, bumped up the dose of Resveratrol and added Curcumin it is working as far as I know and feel.

I am also saying that 2 Nitro 250 + 2 Quercetin 250 has been dropped by other men with prostate cancer because those raised their PSA. The former 2 Longevinex + 2 capsules Quercetin did nothing for the PSA of other men I've spoken to who have prostate cancer.

[browser]

Browser,
I am trying to make this less confusing:

1- I would suggest the title be changed to something like: "Resveratrol + Quercetin combination appears to have promoted a higher PSA score in my situation."
2- You said the your PSA score was measured after you intake of resveratrol + quercetin combo. Your PSA rose 28% according to your post.
3- You said that on March 17th you got your PSA scores. For this period you had been taking 8 weeks of Longevinex, and 11 days of the Nitro250, and agreed with Maxwatt that the Quercetin had to be dropped, while adding Curcumin to the regimen. (http://www.imminst.o...20)
4- You continued to use Nitro250 (possibly stopping MCT Quercetin at this time because of item 3 above) until March 26th. You started your emulsion on March 27th.
5- You said that your new resveratrol emulsion was making you better on March 31, while you had just started taking it on March 27. This appears to be 4 days (or much more if you count the Nitro mentioned in item 4 above.)
6- You said that after 3 weeks of taking the resveratrol emulsion, you are 'Symptom Free' while at the same time your PSA has not been tested (so you aren't sure, and are hoping for good PSA scores).

7- The emulsion that you currently take includes 20 grams of resveratrol. You take this daily, however you stopped taking Quercetin.

I do hope your next PSA scores show an improvement Browser.

(Let's all remember that PSA scores does not necessarily mean you have cancer, so you need to consult your medical professional if you have questions about your own health.)

I had a biopsy on December 14, 2008. The other men I speak of had biopsies, surgery, seeds, radiation, ADT, the whole spectrum of treatments. We are have been diagnosed with prostate cancer. PSA is largely used as an indicator of prostate cancer growth after it's been diagnoses.

[browser]

So you're still taking resveratrol, but now you're asymptomatic. Hmm. One of the major things that changed in your regimen is quercetin. Maybe quercetin (or some other component of the original regimen) is the problem.

Perhaps the Quercetin. But I'm thinking more that Resveratrol promotes longevity of cells up to a certain dosage. Above that dose it promotes apoptosis. This is why I maxed out on the amount of Resveratrol I'm takng. I don't like the idea of taking sodium ascorbate and Vitamin E but I need something to protect the Curcumin. Note that I'm not promoting R+C. Until I get my blood work back, I could just be enjoying anti-inflammatory action.

Resveratrol is an aromatase inhibitor and also suppresses aromatase expression. While it's not particularly potent, the activity is seen in vitro at concentrations that are not wildly different than pharmacological concentrations. Aromatase inhibition has been shown to increase testosterone significantly in older men. There has been at least one report here of increased libido in males taking resveratrol. This is at least a plausible mechanism for resveratrol to bump up PSA in an androgen sensitive cancer.

Toxicol Sci. 2006 Jul;92(1):71-7. Epub 2006 Apr 11.
The red wine polyphenol resveratrol displays bilevel inhibition on aromatase in breast cancer cells.

Wang Y, Lee KW, Chan FL, Chen S, Leung LK.

Department of Biochemistry and Department of Anatomy, The Chinese University of Hong Kong, Shatin, N.T., Hong Kong.
Abstract

Estrogen plays a crucial role in the development of breast cancer, and the inhibition of estrogen synthesis has been an important target for the prevention and treatment of this disease. The rate-limiting reaction of the hormone biosynthesis is catalyzed by cytochrome P450 (CYP) 19 enzyme or aromatase. It has been of genuine interest to uncover an aromatase-inhibitory compound from a dietary source. Resveratrol is a polyphenolic compound that can be isolated from grape peel. Because of its structural resemblance to estrogen, resveratrol's agonistic and antagonistic properties on estrogen receptor have been examined and demonstrated. In the present study, the effect of resveratrol on the expression and enzyme activity of aromatase was investigated. By assaying on MCF-7 cells stably transfected with CYP19 (MCF-7aro cells), resveratrol inhibited the aromatase activity with an IC(50) value of 25 microM. Kinetic analysis indicated that both competitive and noncompetitive inhibition might be involved. The administration of 10 nmol/l testosterone-a substrate of aromatase-produced a 50% increase in the MCF-7aro cell number. This cell proliferation specifically induced by testosterone was significantly reduced by 10 microM resveratrol. In addition, 50 microM resveratrol significantly reduced the CYP19-encoding mRNA abundance in SK-BR-3 cells. The transcriptional control of CYP19 gene is tissue specific, and promoter regions I.3 and II have previously been shown to be responsible for CYP19 expression in breast cancer cells. Luciferase reporter gene assays revealed that resveratrol could repress the transcriptional control dictated by the promoter regulation. The present study illustrated that pharmacological dosage of resveratrol inhibited aromatase at both the enzyme and mRNA levels.

PMID: 1661162

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Free Full Text
Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.

Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.

Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.
Abstract

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.

PMID: 15001605

Interesting, except that I'm taking DIM and chrysin in a bio-identical cream prescribed by my doctor. I also supplement with Testosterone. The other men I spoke of also take DIM and chrysin, some take prescription aromatase inhibitors and have their Testosterone, Estrogen(s) and DHT checked regularly. Some take supplemental Testosterone. They did not notice a change in T, Es or DHT. My doctor and many others with prostate cancer patients these days are very sensitive to the T:E2 ratio, test for it often and prescribe natural or prescription aromatase inhibitors freely.

[Anthony_Loera]

Browser,
I am trying to make this less confusing:

1- I would suggest the title be changed to something like: "Resveratrol + Quercetin combination appears to have promoted a higher PSA score in my situation."
2- You said the your PSA score was measured after you intake of resveratrol + quercetin combo. Your PSA rose 28% according to your post.
3- You said that on March 17th you got your PSA scores. For this period you had been taking 8 weeks of Longevinex, and 11 days of the Nitro250, and agreed with Maxwatt that the Quercetin had to be dropped, while adding Curcumin to the regimen. (http://www.imminst.o...20)
4- You continued to use Nitro250 (possibly stopping MCT Quercetin at this time because of item 3 above) until March 26th. You started your emulsion on March 27th.
5- You said that your new resveratrol emulsion was making you better on March 31, while you had just started taking it on March 27. This appears to be 4 days (or much more if you count the Nitro mentioned in item 4 above.)
6- You said that after 3 weeks of taking the resveratrol emulsion, you are 'Symptom Free' while at the same time your PSA has not been tested (so you aren't sure, and are hoping for good PSA scores).

7- The emulsion that you currently take includes 20 grams of resveratrol. You take this daily, however you stopped taking Quercetin.

I do hope your next PSA scores show an improvement Browser.

(Let's all remember that PSA scores does not necessarily mean you have cancer, so you need to consult your medical professional if you have questions about your own health.)

ok thanks, it appears that my summary quoted above is correct.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 14 April 2010 - 02:27 PM.

[niner]

So you're still taking resveratrol, but now you're asymptomatic. Hmm. One of the major things that changed in your regimen is quercetin. Maybe quercetin (or some other component of the original regimen) is the problem.

Perhaps the Quercetin. But I'm thinking more that Resveratrol promotes longevity of cells up to a certain dosage. Above that dose it promotes apoptosis. This is why I maxed out on the amount of Resveratrol I'm takng. I don't like the idea of taking sodium ascorbate and Vitamin E but I need something to protect the Curcumin. Note that I'm not promoting R+C. Until I get my blood work back, I could just be enjoying anti-inflammatory action.

Resveratrol is an aromatase inhibitor and also suppresses aromatase expression. While it's not particularly potent, the activity is seen in vitro at concentrations that are not wildly different than pharmacological concentrations. Aromatase inhibition has been shown to increase testosterone significantly in older men. There has been at least one report here of increased libido in males taking resveratrol. This is at least a plausible mechanism for resveratrol to bump up PSA in an androgen sensitive cancer.

[a couple abstracts]

Interesting, except that I'm taking DIM and chrysin in a bio-identical cream prescribed by my doctor. I also supplement with Testosterone. The other men I spoke of also take DIM and chrysin, some take prescription aromatase inhibitors and have their Testosterone, Estrogen(s) and DHT checked regularly. Some take supplemental Testosterone. They did not notice a change in T, Es or DHT. My doctor and many others with prostate cancer patients these days are very sensitive to the T:E2 ratio, test for it often and prescribe natural or prescription aromatase inhibitors freely.

Well this is interesting indeed. Are you saying that supplemental T isn't promoting tumor growth or bumping up PSA? Conventional wisdom (which may well be wrong) would have you doing the opposite. I remember you saying that the point was to not develop an androgen-insensitive tumor, which would presumably be worse than an androgen-sensitive one. There are a lot of guys who would like to supplement T but are afraid of promoting growth of indolent cancer cells that a lot of (most?) older men have. Is your experience here evidence that this fear is unwarranted, or are you accepting a certain amount of cancer promotion from the T in order to avoid a worse form of cancer?

[niner]

There exist no medical protocols for the treatment of any cancer by resveratrol or other phyto-chemicals. Browser's hypothesis that res is pro-cancer cell survival in some contexts (low doses), and anti-cancer at high doses is certainly quite plausible but not yet proven.

There's Das' work looking at ischemic myocardium; he saw precisely this effect of low doses being anti-apoptotic while high doses were pro-apoptotic. Whether or not it would apply in this case would depend on the extent to which the cells are getting apoptosis signals in the first place.

[browser]

Browser,
I am trying to make this less confusing:

1- I would suggest the title be changed to something like: "Resveratrol + Quercetin combination appears to have promoted a higher PSA score in my situation."
2- You said the your PSA score was measured after you intake of resveratrol + quercetin combo. Your PSA rose 28% according to your post.
3- You said that on March 17th you got your PSA scores. For this period you had been taking 8 weeks of Longevinex, and 11 days of the Nitro250, and agreed with Maxwatt that the Quercetin had to be dropped, while adding Curcumin to the regimen. (http://www.imminst.o...20)
4- You continued to use Nitro250 (possibly stopping MCT Quercetin at this time because of item 3 above) until March 26th. You started your emulsion on March 27th.
5- You said that your new resveratrol emulsion was making you better on March 31, while you had just started taking it on March 27. This appears to be 4 days (or much more if you count the Nitro mentioned in item 4 above.)
6- You said that after 3 weeks of taking the resveratrol emulsion, you are 'Symptom Free' while at the same time your PSA has not been tested (so you aren't sure, and are hoping for good PSA scores).

7- The emulsion that you currently take includes 20 grams of resveratrol. You take this daily, however you stopped taking Quercetin.

I do hope your next PSA scores show an improvement Browser.

(Let's all remember that PSA scores does not necessarily mean you have cancer, so you need to consult your medical professional if you have questions about your own health.)

ok thanks, it appears that my summary quoted above is correct.

I stopped taking Quercetin and immediately started taking Curcumin. First I took Curcumin and Nitro 250s then I switched to putting generic Resveratrol in the Curcumin emulsion.

[browser]

So you're still taking resveratrol, but now you're asymptomatic. Hmm. One of the major things that changed in your regimen is quercetin. Maybe quercetin (or some other component of the original regimen) is the problem.

Perhaps the Quercetin. But I'm thinking more that Resveratrol promotes longevity of cells up to a certain dosage. Above that dose it promotes apoptosis. This is why I maxed out on the amount of Resveratrol I'm takng. I don't like the idea of taking sodium ascorbate and Vitamin E but I need something to protect the Curcumin. Note that I'm not promoting R+C. Until I get my blood work back, I could just be enjoying anti-inflammatory action.

Resveratrol is an aromatase inhibitor and also suppresses aromatase expression. While it's not particularly potent, the activity is seen in vitro at concentrations that are not wildly different than pharmacological concentrations. Aromatase inhibition has been shown to increase testosterone significantly in older men. There has been at least one report here of increased libido in males taking resveratrol. This is at least a plausible mechanism for resveratrol to bump up PSA in an androgen sensitive cancer.

[a couple abstracts]

Interesting, except that I'm taking DIM and chrysin in a bio-identical cream prescribed by my doctor. I also supplement with Testosterone. The other men I spoke of also take DIM and chrysin, some take prescription aromatase inhibitors and have their Testosterone, Estrogen(s) and DHT checked regularly. Some take supplemental Testosterone. They did not notice a change in T, Es or DHT. My doctor and many others with prostate cancer patients these days are very sensitive to the T:E2 ratio, test for it often and prescribe natural or prescription aromatase inhibitors freely.

Well this is interesting indeed. Are you saying that supplemental T isn't promoting tumor growth or bumping up PSA? Conventional wisdom (which may well be wrong) would have you doing the opposite. I remember you saying that the point was to not develop an androgen-insensitive tumor, which would presumably be worse than an androgen-sensitive one. There are a lot of guys who would like to supplement T but are afraid of promoting growth of indolent cancer cells that a lot of (most?) older men have. Is your experience here evidence that this fear is unwarranted, or are you accepting a certain amount of cancer promotion from the T in order to avoid a worse form of cancer?

I started the 100 mg. pure T sublingual twice a day in May of 2009 along with a bio-identical cream containing at least DIM and chrysin to prevent aromatization. My symptoms abated, my PSA drifted down. Added IP6+Inositol. My symptoms abated, my PSA drifted down.

Common "wisdom" is that prescribing T to a PCa patient is like throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out. More and more it's becoming evident that T:Estradiol ratio is what causes undetectable prostate cancer (which actually exists in 21 year olds) to become aggressive. Men with prostate cancer (usually already nuked prostate cancer) are concerned about their T:E2 ratio. That's what my doctor's concerned about. As I've said in previous posts, things were going along nicely. Symptoms abating, PSA dropping. With the T supplementation, with the DIM and chrysin in bio-identical cream, with the Vitamin C IVs and then with the added IP6+Inositol.

The doctor prescribed the T for general health and because he doesn't believe the T alone story. It certainly looked like he was right. By controlling E2 and DHT, I had vim, vigor and a what appeared to be dying PCa.

Edited by browser, 14 April 2010 - 04:10 PM.

[browser]

There exist no medical protocols for the treatment of any cancer by resveratrol or other phyto-chemicals. Browser's hypothesis that res is pro-cancer cell survival in some contexts (low doses), and anti-cancer at high doses is certainly quite plausible but not yet proven.

There's Das' work looking at ischemic myocardium; he saw precisely this effect of low doses being anti-apoptotic while high doses were pro-apoptotic. Whether or not it would apply in this case would depend on the extent to which the cells are getting apoptosis signals in the first place.

This is what started me on Resveratrol. Bill Sardi and I struck up an email exchange. Bill surmised that Resveratrol acted as a pro-oxidant in higher doses, suggested I take 8 capsules of Longevinex, 12 grams of fish oil, Vitamin D3 and no anti-oxidants. I added the Quercetin as people spoke of Resveratrol not being bio-available and based on Dr. Snuffy Myers' recommendations about Resveratrol and Quercetin.

[browser]

I changed the title of this topic to more accurately reflect what can be shown from information given, and not to protect Anthony, resveratrol or anything else. I hope Browser does not mind the name change to his topic.

There exist no medical protocols for the treatment of any cancer by resveratrol or other phyto-chemicals. Browser's hypothesis that res is pro-cancer cell survival in some contexts (low doses), and anti-cancer at high doses is certainly quite plausible but not yet proven.

That Curcumin inhibits P53 deacetylization as mikeinnaples pointed out in the previous post is bad news in the case of P53 dependent cancers. Resveratrol agonizes P53, so the two would seem to be working at cross purposes; resveratrol may cancel out the pro-cancer effect of curcumin on these kinds of cancer. Again, no tested protocol exists. Many multiple-myeloma patients have reported relief from curcumin use. I believe there was one study showing some positive effect, but inconsistent and far from a cure. This is different than prostate cancer in any case.

We think some things may fight cancer, and throw them all at it at once int he hope that something will work.

Good night and good luck.

IRRC correctly, you, Maxwatt, thought, in another thread, that Curcumin and Resveratrol might work in a synergistic fashion.

I'm interested in agonizing the P53 gene so because of this and for the sake of my digestion, I'm going to mix an emulsion tonight without the Curcumin and the Vitamin E and sodium ascorbate. The two aspirins, the Bioperine and grapefruit juice ought to be enough help prevent first pass metabolism of the Resveratrol, though the high dose alone (20 grams) should be enough to swamp any CYP action against it. And no, Anthony, though I'm going to go get a Vitamin C IV from my doctor today, I'm not going to get a prescription from him to drop the Curcumin and the anti-oxidants to protect it from my list of supplements.

[tunt01]

I'm interested in agonizing the P53 gene so because of this and for the sake of my digestion, I'm going to mix an emulsion tonight without the Curcumin and the Vitamin E and sodium ascorbate. The two aspirins, the Bioperine and grapefruit juice ought to be enough help prevent first pass metabolism of the Resveratrol, though the high dose alone (20 grams) should be enough to swamp any CYP action against it. And no, Anthony, though I'm going to go get a Vitamin C IV from my doctor today, I'm not going to get a prescription from him to drop the Curcumin and the anti-oxidants to protect it from my list of supplements.

FYI

http://anti-agingfir...nt-in-the-news/

[mikeinnaples]

There exist no medical protocols for the treatment of any cancer by resveratrol or other phyto-chemicals. Browser's hypothesis that res is pro-cancer cell survival in some contexts (low doses), and anti-cancer at high doses is certainly quite plausible but not yet proven.

There's Das' work looking at ischemic myocardium; he saw precisely this effect of low doses being anti-apoptotic while high doses were pro-apoptotic. Whether or not it would apply in this case would depend on the extent to which the cells are getting apoptosis signals in the first place.

This is what started me on Resveratrol. Bill Sardi and I struck up an email exchange. Bill surmised that Resveratrol acted as a pro-oxidant in higher doses, suggested I take 8 capsules of Longevinex, 12 grams of fish oil, Vitamin D3 and no anti-oxidants. I added the Quercetin as people spoke of Resveratrol not being bio-available and based on Dr. Snuffy Myers' recommendations about Resveratrol and Quercetin.

I would like to simply point out that if you were taking Longevinex, you already were taking Quercetin as it has been a part of Sardi's formula for a long time. Yes, not at the dosages you jumped up to ....but I can argue that 8 capsules of Longevinex is a signifcant amount of Q anyways. With that said, how was your PSA during Longevinex tx?

Edited by mikeinnaples, 14 April 2010 - 05:13 PM.

[browser]

There exist no medical protocols for the treatment of any cancer by resveratrol or other phyto-chemicals. Browser's hypothesis that res is pro-cancer cell survival in some contexts (low doses), and anti-cancer at high doses is certainly quite plausible but not yet proven.

There's Das' work looking at ischemic myocardium; he saw precisely this effect of low doses being anti-apoptotic while high doses were pro-apoptotic. Whether or not it would apply in this case would depend on the extent to which the cells are getting apoptosis signals in the first place.

This is what started me on Resveratrol. Bill Sardi and I struck up an email exchange. Bill surmised that Resveratrol acted as a pro-oxidant in higher doses, suggested I take 8 capsules of Longevinex, 12 grams of fish oil, Vitamin D3 and no anti-oxidants. I added the Quercetin as people spoke of Resveratrol not being bio-available and based on Dr. Snuffy Myers' recommendations about Resveratrol and Quercetin.

I would like to simply point out that if you were taking Longevinex, you already were taking Quercetin as it has been a part of Sardi's formula for a long time. Yes, not at the dosages you jumped up to ....but I can argue that 8 capsules of Longevinex is a signifcant amount of Q anyways. With that said, how was your PSA during Longevinex tx?

PSA is not like blood pressure or fasting glucose. It should be measured no more often than every 3 months. The span of time between 8 capsules of Longevinex (which I already knew contained, what, 100 mg. Quercetin per capsule?) then added 1 gram Quercetin while taking the 8 Longevinex then moved up to 1 gram each Nitro 250, MCT Quercetin and 8 grams and finally 3 grams each of Nitro and MCT was all lumped into one period of PSA measurement. I can tell you that I got no symptomatic relief while taking the Longevinex, despite Bill Sardi's assumption that his 8 capsules of Longevinex, 5,000 units of D3 and 12 grams of fish oil was all I needed to oxidize the PCa cells. I am obtaining symptom relief now. In the past, symptom relief has gone hand in hand with drop in PSA for me. Symptom relief could be the result of taking the Curcumin or I might be zapping away at the PCa cells. A blood test at the end of the month might give an indication, though the blood test is too close to the previous one to be definitive.

Now Anthony Loera, in the style of "But Brutus is an honorable man" keeps ragging on my taking 12 capsules of Nitro 250 and 12 capsules of MCT Quercetin, implying that I did something terribly wrong, my doctor is a incompetent, or I'm not getting my doctor's approval. The fact is, Dr. Myers thought that 2 capsules of Longevinex plus 2 capsules of Quercetin was good for prostate cancer patients. He thought that 2-4 capsules each of Nitro 250 and MCT Quercetin were good for prostate cancer patients. So if 4 capsules each were good for prostate cancer, then it naturally follows that 12 capsules each are bad for prostate cancer?