20 replies to this topic

[j03]

I take 5 MG's of lithium orotate, and 300 MG of lion's mane mushroom daily. I got some friends that are social marijuana users, and I like to join in sometimes. Am I going to run into trouble with this? Either though excitotoxicity, or another harmful reaction? I just figure I'll stop the lithium on those days and it might be alright. Opinions?

[LabRat84]

This is something you should ask your doctor.

If there were serious interactions between lithium and marijuana, we'd probably know about them. The mechanisms of lithium are unclear, but they seem to involve monoamines, not cannabinoids. If you're eating the marijuana you might have issues with renal clearance. If anything, though, at the small dose of lithium you're taking it should be neuroprotective.

[chrono]

I think most doctors are probably unfamiliar with the use of very low dose lithium for neuroprotection/genesis.

I would be very surprised if there was any problem with this combination, especially at this very small dose of lithium. If it was me I wouldn't even bother to stop lithium on those days, but you'll have to weigh the evidence and your own reactions.

Marijuana interacts with few medications in a non-psychological way. Anecdotally, the only effect I could find (and this was in regard to therapeutic dosages for BD) was a possible increase in "lithium-induced tremor."

On pubmed, none of the papers I saw mentioned any adverse reactions. Several discussed lithium for treatment of drug addiction/withdrawal, and several examined the effect "comorbid" use of marijuana had upon treatment of bipolar disorder. But none of these mentioned any dangers (in the abstracts, anyway).

I found one paper called Lithium and Marijuana. I'll try to pick it up in a week or two.

Lithium is next on my list of things to add. Do you find it's making you tired or cranky? Or having any effect on stress/mood?

Edited by chrono, 21 April 2010 - 01:17 AM.

[LabRat84]

I think most doctors are probably unfamiliar with the use of very low dose lithium for neuroprotection/genesis.

I would be very surprised if there was any problem with this combination, especially at this very small dose of lithium. If it was me I wouldn't even bother to stop lithium on those days, but you'll have to weigh the evidence and your own reactions.

Marijuana interacts with few medications in a non-psychological way. Anecdotally, the only effect I could find (and this was in regard to therapeutic dosages for BD) was a possible increase in "lithium-induced tremor."

On pubmed, none of the papers I saw mentioned any adverse reactions. Several discussed lithium for treatment of drug addiction/withdrawal, and several examined the effect "comorbid" use of marijuana had upon treatment of bipolar disorder. But none of these mentioned any dangers (in the abstracts, anyway).

I found one paper called Lithium and Marijuana. I'll try to pick it up in a week or two.

Lithium is next on my list of things to add. Do you find it's making you tired or cranky? Or having any effect on stress/mood?

Just read the fist page of the article (for some reason the second page wasn't retrieved.) The first page is the story, second page (missing) is the discussion. Summary: There was a psychiatric patient on 2100 mg lithium carbonate/day (a high dose) plus an antipsychotic. When he started smoking 3-4 marijuana cigarettes, his serum levels of lithium got too high, so his dose was reduced to 1200 mg/day. His lithium levels then remained stable, at a safe range, until he stopped smoking pot. At that point his serum levels dropped and he needed to be put back on the higher lithium dose.

For reference, 1200 mg of lithium carbonate provides about 228 mg of elemental lithium.

When lithium is used medically, psychiatrists monitor plasma levels very closely, because the toxic dose and the therapeutic dose are close. A small amount of lithium orotate probably won't pose a problem.

Edited by LabRat84, 21 April 2010 - 01:54 AM.

[chrono]

lol @ "marijuana cigarette" Interesting result, though I assume it was an isolated case. Someone needing high-dose lithium and antipsychotics is probably not the best candidate for successful marijuana use. Did they happen to mention what antipsychotic it was? Could be quite a confounding factor; being 30 years ago, it was probably one of those first-generation ones like Nurse Ratched administered.

But yeah, at 5mg, you would have to multiply your dosage/serum levels many times over before you got into trouble. If you do decide to combine these, try to notice if any of the mental effects of the lithium are being accentuated.

Edited by chrono, 21 April 2010 - 02:14 AM.

[LabRat84]

lol @ "marijuana cigarette" Interesting result, though I assume it was an isolated case. But yeah, at 5mg, you would have to multiply your dosage/serum levels many times over before you got into trouble.

Did they happen to mention what antipsychotic it was? Could be quite a confounding factor; being 30 years ago, it was probably one of those first-generation ones like Nurse Ratched administered.

If you do decide to do these, try to notice if any of the effects of the lithium or marijuana are reinforcing each other beyond what they both usually do separately.

It was haloperidol. They switched him from chlorpramazine to control mania. On haloperidol+lithium, his lithium levels were stable.

[haha]

Haloperidol and lithium effect the exact same peptide with opposite effects. Lithium agonistic(increased metabolism,brain weight) while haloperidol is antagonistic, maybe the doc was aiming to achieve a nr2b antagonistic(haloperidol aswell) antidepressant effect without the antiphycotic effects. MJ and lithium is prob very good nootropic stack

[chrono]

Haloperidol is a D2 antagonist...I don't think lithium is an agonist at any of the dopamine subtypes. It has some downstream effects on dopamine (including release in the PFC, apparently). I'm not sure which target you're speaking of, on which they exert opposing effects.

Labrat, you should look at this paper if you haven't already: Looking at lithium: molecular moods and complex behaviour. An excellent explanation of the current hypotheses of lithium's MOA.

[haha]

Just because pubmed and wiki say its a D2 antagonist doesnt mean it is, why does it have three ring structures then? its a sigma-2 antagonist
And monovalent ions (li+)cause a large increase in the surface expression of sigma-2, cocaine is an agonist of s-2

[chrono]

Just because pubmed and wiki say its a D2 antagonist doesnt mean it is

True! It's really only fun to believe things when they allow you to be contrary and condescending.

[haha]

Just because pubmed and wiki say its a D2 antagonist doesnt mean it is

True! It's really only fun to believe things when they allow you to be contrary and condescending.

Im dont know what i have said that is condescending, contrary to things that simply are not correct yes maybe. D2 and sigma-2 do complex however

[chrono]

m dont know what i have said that is condescending, contrary to things that simply are not correct yes maybe. D2 and sigma-2 do complex however

Well, I would nominate calling people "losers" who "don't deserve to know" in your fluoride thread as condescending. If you want to convince someone of something, put a little effort into presenting your ideas better, because right now it seems like you have a pretty huge chip on your shoulder.

As far as being contrary, how about your offhand comment about haloperidol not being a D2 antagonist? Suggesting that 30 years of research and thousands of papers are incorrect just because it acts upon another receptor as well is pretty absurd.

And haloperidol is a sigma(1) antagonist.

Can you provide a reference showing the link between lithium and sigma receptor expression? I was unable to find anything.

And even if lithium does have this effect, it seems a far cry from the agonist/antagonist relationship you proposed. Which doesn't take into account the other mechanisms of lithium, and haloperidol.

In case you honestly can't see what the problem is here: you're making very controversial claims without any effort to back them up. Your explanations are sparse, and your factual errors don't exactly encourage faith in your expertise. People on this board appreciate it if you provide some way for us to verify your data, without having to run around doing your research for you.

[LabRat84]

Haloperidol is a D2 antagonist...I don't think lithium is an agonist at any of the dopamine subtypes. It has some downstream effects on dopamine (including release in the PFC, apparently). I'm not sure which target you're speaking of, on which they exert opposing effects.

Labrat, you should look at this paper if you haven't already: Looking at lithium: molecular moods and complex behaviour. An excellent explanation of the current hypotheses of lithium's MOA.

Thanks! I'm pretty familiar with receptor biology; now it's time to learn about signaling. (Or, as you would would write it, "signalling.")

I missed my dose of lithium at bedtime last night, so I took it this morning on an empty stomach. I certainly won't do that again!

[j03]

Also, does anyone see any issue with taking Lithium Orotate, Lion's Mane Mushroon, and Buspar?

[Logan]

Also, does anyone see any issue with taking Lithium Orotate, Lion's Mane Mushroon, and Buspar?

I don't. Lithium carbonate at very high toxic doses is combined with several different medications sometimes with bipolars.

Just curious, what has your experience with Buspar been like? Or have you not started it yet and are considering it?

[haha]

I think lithium is a good drug, even with the renal threat.
Chrono you have good points about my lack of back up and my poor presentation. I apolgise
Here is proof that antiphycotics are antagonist of sigma-2, this is sourced from european sources because in algophone countries they are regarded to be agonists. Maybe someone else can tell me why this is???? It must be noted that the sigma-2 antagonists do activated calcium behaviour similar to agonist but they lack the neurogenic and mitogenic effect of fully agonists.


High receptor occupancy is required for cytotoxicity of sigma antagonists
Anna Rybczynska1, Philip Elsinga1, Kiichi Ishiwata2, Rudi Dierckx1 and Aren Van Waarde1
1 Nuclear Medicine & Molecular Imaging, University of Groningen Medical Center, Groningen, Netherlands; 2 Positron Medical Center, Tokyo Metropolitan Institute of Gerontology, Tokyo, Japan

400

Objectives: Cytotoxicity of sigma ligands has been reported in several publications. Such drugs must be administered in 20 to 100 µM concentrations. The reason for this requirement is unknown. Large amounts of drug may be required because biomembranes limit drug access to intracellular sites, but also because a large fraction of the receptor population must be occupied for the cytotoxic effect. We tested which sigma receptor occupancy is needed for cytotoxicity in tumor cells.

Methods: C6 cells (rat glioma) were grown in monolayers and exposed to the following drugs: (1) (+)-Pentazocine (sigma-1 agonist); (2) AC915 (sigma-1 antagonist); (3) Rimcazole (sigma-1/sigma-2 antagonist) and (4) Haloperidol (sigma-1/sigma-2 antagonist). Occupancy of sigma receptors by the test drugs was measured by studying their competition with cellular binding of the ligand 11C-SA4503. Cytotoxic effects were assessed by observation of cellular morphology and by cell counting after 24h.

Results: Dose-dependent inhibition of 11C-SA4503 binding by the test drugs was observed, with IC50 values of 6.5 µM (pentazocine), 7.4 µM (AC915), 0.4 µM (rimcazole) and 0.3 µM (haloperidol), respectively. Rounding and detachment of the cells occurred at drug concentrations 100µM (AC915), 20µM (rimcazole) and 10µM (haloperidol), respectively, whereas pentazocine had little effect even at 100µM.

Conclusions: Since cytotoxicity was only observed at concentrations > 10 times greater than IC50-values for inhibition of cellular 11C-SA4503 binding, high (> 90%) receptor occupancy is required for rapid cell killing by sigma antagonists. In C6 cells, 96% occupancy of sigma receptors by an agonist (pentazocine) appeared to be not cytotoxic.

[Guacamolium]

Also, does anyone see any issue with taking Lithium Orotate, Lion's Mane Mushroon, and Buspar?

If you tolerate buspar well, then no prob, but I'd seek a B1,B3,B5 regimen stat!

[j03]

Also, does anyone see any issue with taking Lithium Orotate, Lion's Mane Mushroon, and Buspar?

I don't. Lithium carbonate at very high toxic doses is combined with several different medications sometimes with bipolars.

Just curious, what has your experience with Buspar been like? Or have you not started it yet and are considering it?

Buspar did nothing for my mood or anxiety, but it helped a bruxism issue that I feel is getting worse again since the Lithium. So hopefully it can offset that,

[chrono]

Actually these two papers point to haloperidol being a sigma(2) agnoist: 1 2 But activity at this receptor isn't nearly as well-documented as sigma(1), I'm not sure why.

But besides being interesting, I'm still not sure if this relates to lithium. Any luck finding info about lithium and sigma receptors?

[haha]

Actually these two papers point to haloperidol being a sigma(2) agnoist: 1 2 But activity at this receptor isn't nearly as well-documented as sigma(1), I'm not sure why.

But besides being interesting, I'm still not sure if this relates to lithium. Any luck finding info about lithium and sigma receptors?

I already said that anglophone(england,canada,USA,australia,NZ) medical science said they were "agonist", they are not per my article above, do you really think ibogaine is similar to haloperidol. It was relevent to an post a long time ago.Dont mean to sound like a d*ck, as for lithium and sigma2 i cant really find much info, that partly because sigma2 is really AP-xs2 or maybe AP2S www.endocytosis.org/Adaptors/

Edited by haha, 23 April 2010 - 03:02 PM.

[chrono]

Actually, it appears it was never relevant to this discussion. I was trying to give you a chance to develop some of your ideas, but you're not even attempting to follow a line of reasoning. Guess I'm through here.