28 replies to this topic

[NIMh714]

My grandmother is starting to forget alot of things. Possibly the start of dementia or Alzheimer's. I was thinking she could take L-Huperzine A or something else. Shes 68 this year and pretty healthy. She just forgets things, when well... she shouldn't. Names ( not like confused, just cannot thinking of the name right away ) places she has to go ( she doesn't get lost or just leave and no one can find her ). I'm looking for a nootropic that can help with memory. She is on blood pressure meds too, incase something raises the BP or not.

Thanks to all.

[k10]

Give er' som ritalin... she'll be 50 years younger

[k10]

No really.......

* Huperzine-A is a good choice... 100mcg twice a day

Just do that for now... then she may try:

* Acetyl-l-carnitine 500mg twice a day
&
* Piracetam 1000mg twice a day with Alpha-GPC

After a couple of weeks once she knows if huperzine A is helping her and in what ways.

[NIMh714]

IF it works, what dose should she continue with and what duration should she continue taking the L-Huperzine? Should she take it for a few mths at a time, or take it for 6 mths and then stop for a few mths?

[NootropicNirvana]

I will be following this thread since I'm looking for some nootropics for my mother, age 60. She is taking some other meds which is why I'm also unsure of what would be the best choice for her.(Inderal and Levothyroxine) I just ordered some Piracetam (for myself, first time) and I thought perhaps she could take it as well, but after giving it some thought I feel it might be a little too powerful for her. I know she would prefer something subtle, since she generally dislikes feeling "high".Perhaps stuff like DMAE, Phosphatidyl Serine and Lion's Mane Mushroom are better options for her (And the OP's grandmother?)She's already taking Omega-3 and some multivitamin every day.Ideas?

Edited by NootropicNirvana, 25 April 2010 - 02:15 AM.

[jazzcat]

hydergine is used for alzheimers. In the US the dose is low something like 1 or 2 mg. But in Europe where some people buy their nootropics from it comes in a 6 mg. dose.

[chrono]

Hydergine has more risks of adverse effects attached than the others mentioned here so far.

Galantamine is another AChEI, but I think Hup A is probably superior. ALCAR combined with ALA is an excellent geriatric medication.

Edited by chrono, 25 April 2010 - 06:44 AM.

[k10]

IF it works, what dose should she continue with and what duration should she continue taking the L-Huperzine? Should she take it for a few mths at a time, or take it for 6 mths and then stop for a few mths?

She can continue that dose indefinitely if it helps her. It's a fairly conservative dose in the first place (200mcg per day). For a younger person it wouldn't be recommended but since she's 68 it should be fine.

[chrono]

My grandmother is starting to forget alot of things. Possibly the start of dementia or Alzheimer's...She just forgets things, when well... she shouldn't. Names ( not like confused, just cannot thinking of the name right away ) places she has to go ( she doesn't get lost or just leave and no one can find her ).

Also, the medical term for what you're most likely describing is mild cognitive impairment (MCI).

[haha]

"The metabolic enhancer piracetam ameliorates the impairment of mitochondrial function and neurite outgrowth induced by ss-amyloid peptide"

AND

Epigallocatechin-3-gallate(GREEN TEA EXTRACT) and curcumin(TUMERIC) suppress amyloid beta-induced beta-site APP cleaving enzyme-1 upregulation.
Shimmyo Y, Kihara T, Akaike A, Niidome T, Sugimoto H.

Department of Neuroscience for Drug Discovery, Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan. hsugimot@pharm.kyoto-u.ac.jp

Abstract
Beta-site APP cleaving enzyme-1 (BACE-1), is a rate-limiting enzyme for beta amyloid production. Beta amyloid induces the production of radical oxygen species and neuronal injury. Oxidative stress plays a key role in various neurological diseases such as ischemia and Alzheimer's disease. Recent studies suggest that oxidative stress induces BACE-1 protein upregulation in neuronal cells. Here, we demonstrate that naturally occurring compounds (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate and curcumin suppress beta amyloid-induced BACE-1 upregulation. Exposure of beta amyloid 1-42 to neuronal culture increased BACE-1 protein levels. (-)-Epigallocatechin-3-gallate or curcumin significantly attenuated beta amyloid-induced radical oxygen species production and beta-sheet structure formation. These two compounds have novel pharmacological effects that may be beneficial for Alzheimer's disease treatment.(PUREBULK IS GOOD SOURCE)

Curcumin has also been shown to destroy beta amyloid, which no drug on the market can claim to do to my knowledge. Search for how people are getting it absorbed.

Lipoic acid and acetylcarntine could be good , although acetyl carntine does have strong prooxidant effects(couldnt find data) matching its antioxidant effect, be real careful dose at 200mg 2-3 times a day is necessary in older people and check contraindications.

I would get heavy metal test conducted with a challenge, doc's have an aversion to this but its a leading cause of disease in the western world.
I would also get hormone levels looked at by an endocrinologist, money permiting, look at pregnenlonone sulfate and pregnanlonone sulfate

Also exercise 3 times a week is really important, get her to really push her limits, the effects on the brain are immense
Vitamin D supplement, fish oil, magnesium

Edited by haha, 26 April 2010 - 04:54 AM.

[hamishm00]

Rather than giving granny a stack of pills and powder which she probably won't stick with, I reckon just make it easy and give her something like LEF cognitex - all in one pill (amounts shown below are for a 3 pill dose):

Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline (A-GPC) 600 mg
Phosphatidylserine [SharpPS Gold Conjugated Phosphatidylserine-DHA (std. to 45% PS and 8% DHA) and phosphatidylserine] 100 mg
Pregnenolone 50 mg
Vinpocetine 20 mg
Phosphatidylcholine-Grape Seed Extract [Contains 50 mg of Leucoselect Phytosome grape seed extract (95% polyphenols) bound to 100 mg of phosphatidylcholine from soy] 150 mg
VitaBlue Wild BlueBerry (Vaccinium angustifolium) 130:1 Extract (fruit) [std. to 14% Total Phenolics (21 mg), 4.9% Total Anthocyanins (7.35 mg), 660 ppm Pterostilbene (0.1 mg)] 150 mg **
Sensoril Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera) Extract (root and leaves) [standardized to 8% withanolide glycoside conjugates (10 mg) and 32% oligosaccharides (40 mg)] 125 mg
Uridine-5'-Monophosphate 9disodium) 50 mg
Proprietary NeuroProtection Complex Blend
Perluxan Hops Extract (Humulus lupulus) (standardized to 30% alpha and iso-alpha acids) Ginger (Zingiber officinale) Extract (root) (std. to 5% gingerols) Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) Extract (leaves) (standardized to 20% diterpenic compounds)

[chrono]

Lipoic acid and acetylcarntine could be good , although acetyl carntine does have strong prooxidant effects(couldnt find data) matching its antioxidant effect, be real careful dose at 200mg 2-3 times a day is necessary in older people and check contraindications.

I don't know if it's fair to call it a strong pro-oxidant effect. AFAIK the info is based on the original Ames &co rat mechanism studies, which also showed that ALA ameliorated this pretty successfully. I think it's debatable whether oxidation occurs in sub-2g doses in humans at all, but ALA has some great indications for treating senescence anyway.

200mg is a pretty low dose. If this was based only on the oxidation concern, 2x500mg might be more reasonable.

Rather than giving granny a stack of pills and powder which she probably won't stick with, I reckon just make it easy and give her something like LEF cognitex - all in one pill (amounts shown below are for a 3 pill dose):

Because of their mechanisms, Hup A (acetylcholine esterase inhibition + NGF) and ALCAR (mitochondrial energy + NGF) have been shown to be particularly effecting in treating age-related cognitive decline. That mix has a lot of things which are generally good for cognition, but not (I believe) as good at treating actual dementia. Alpha GPC is good stuff, but esterase inhibitors are some of the most effective substances for ameliorating declining cholinergic efficiency.

Also, it contains a good dose of vinpocetine, a vasodilator. Check with the doctor, as this will probably affect (lower?) BP.

[NIMh714]

whoa much thanks guys. So i see that LEF doesnt have huperzine in it, is it still worth taking a shot at? I think she has her blood tested all the time ( well not all the time, but whenver ) Ill tell her to get those checked next time she goes to the doctors. What are we going ot be looking for on those specific things to be tested? What happens if they are low/high? Also, i dont think shes going to be wanting to take a cocktail of pills. Does huperzine work solo, or does it have ot be paired with alcar?

Also, I think she still might be on hormones ( birth control? ) Im not familiar with what she could have done to be on them still.

[chrono]

Hup A works well by itself. ALCAR works by some different actions, and would increase effects.

Did you see my warning about vinpocetine and vasodilation? If you're considering this, ask her doctor first.

Edited by chrono, 27 April 2010 - 09:28 AM.

[NIMh714]

yeha I wont mess with vinpocetine, it gives me headches..


so can she run 100mcg twice daily and then say in a mth cut back to 100mcg once daily?

[chrono]

2x100mcg was the lowest dose used in any of the clinical trials I'm seeing. I wouldn't cut back unless you have reason to, but if so, I'd divide the dose into two per day.

Shorter-term animal studies indicated that no tolerance develops.

[NIMh714]

2x100mcg was the lowest dose used in any of the clinical trials I'm seeing. I wouldn't cut back unless you have reason to, but if so, I'd divide the dose into two per day.

Shorter-term animal studies indicated that no tolerance develops.

Much appreciation! Now what about long term use? Or should she run it for say 60 days and then see if any improvement has taken place? Is this something that she is going to need to be on for X amount of time for improvement or is it a lifetime supplement to retain memory.

[chrono]

My feeling is that, as k10 said, it should be taken more or less indefinitely. The main action is by inhibiting acetylcholine esterase (the enzyme which breaks down acetylcholine) by binding to it. This corrects cholinergic dysfunction which occurs as the brain ages, and is implicated in dementia and Alzheimer's. In effect, it's slowing the breakdown of a neurotransmitter to increase the amount in the brain.

This inhibition continues only for a day or two after the drug is stopped. As far as I know, the drug doesn't increase the brain's physiological ability to create acetylcholine, so I expect that a return to the previous state would occur fairly rapidly. Or worse than original, if more degeneration has occured in the meantime. I'll try to find more papers about what happens after cessation, so I can give you a more definitive answer.

[NIMh714]

My feeling is that, as k10 said, it should be taken more or less indefinitely. The main action is by inhibiting acetylcholine esterase (the enzyme which breaks down acetylcholine) by binding to it. This corrects cholinergic dysfunction which occurs as the brain ages, and is implicated in dementia and Alzheimer's. In effect, it's slowing the breakdown of a neurotransmitter to increase the amount in the brain.

This inhibition continues only for a day or two after the drug is stopped. As far as I know, the drug doesn't increase the brain's physiological ability to create acetylcholine, so I expect that a return to the previous state would occur fairly rapidly. Or worse than original, if more degeneration has occured in the meantime. I'll try to find more papers about what happens after cessation, so I can give you a more definitive answer.

Thats for all of the help. Anything to help regenerate neurotransmitters?

[chrono]

Thats for all of the help. Anything to help regenerate neurotransmitters?

Well, there are lots of substances which promote the growth of new neurons (neurogenesis, usually through increasing nerve growth factor, NGF), or protect existing ones from various causes of death (neuroprotection). Neurogenic drugs have a certain amount of increased benefit while larger amounts of NGF are in the brain, but they have the potential to prompt more permanent improvements via structural protection/growth.

(Huperzine also increases NGF and protects cells from a lot of neurotoxins—it's an impressive drug)

ALCAR was my other choice because it promotes neuron growth through inducing cells to make more NGF. It also makes some cells more sensitive to NGF, so less is required for it to do its stuff. It's been shown to slow the onset of dementia. And the combination of ALCAR with ALA (alpha lipoic acid, an antioxidant) directly improves memory and learning capability, and protects the aged brain from certain other structural changes. And it increases acetylcholine as well, through increasing the activity of the enzyme which manufactures it. And it improves mitochondrial function, leading to a slight increase in energy without being stimulating like caffeine (I take it for this reason, and I'm 28).

Lion's Mane mushroom is the other primary candidate for an NGF drug. It contains several families of NGF inducers (depending on whether you get fruit body or mycelium extract), one of which is the most effective known. It's also been shown to alleviate dementia in a few studies.

I don't see why you couldn't combine all three of these. ALCAR and Hup A both increase acetylcholine levels, so I'd wait until she's used to Hup A and then add ALCAR cautiously, seeing if she gets a slight headache (sign of too much choline, but no other problems). But at her age and moderate dosages I'd doubt it.

For complete disclosure I should say that I'm not very conversant with blood-pressure conditions and drugs, so I won't say for certain that these won't affect her meds. I haven't seen anything to indicate that these impact the cardiovascular system in any way, but I know next to nothing about the medications. Other members might have a better idea, or you could ask her doctor...hopefully he's not the kind to say not to take these just because they're "supplements."

[Guacamolium]

Anybody mention pregnenolone yet? That's an old person cognitive enhancer. Cheap at any grocery store from what I recall. Piracetam will scrub the walls of lipofuscin off, and huperzine A will disable acetylcholinesterase.

Those are my top 3 cognitive enhancing picks.

Oh, and Krill/fish/or seal oil + B complex is the foundation to a cognitive enhancing stack no matter what stack you're tailoring for a person.

[NIMh714]

Thats for all of the help. Anything to help regenerate neurotransmitters?

Well, there are lots of substances which promote the growth of new neurons (neurogenesis, usually through increasing nerve growth factor, NGF), or protect existing ones from various causes of death (neuroprotection). Neurogenic drugs have a certain amount of increased benefit while larger amounts of NGF are in the brain, but they have the potential to prompt more permanent improvements via structural protection/growth.

(Huperzine also increases NGF and protects cells from a lot of neurotoxins—it's an impressive drug)

ALCAR was my other choice because it promotes neuron growth through inducing cells to make more NGF. It also makes some cells more sensitive to NGF, so less is required for it to do its stuff. It's been shown to slow the onset of dementia. And the combination of ALCAR with ALA (alpha lipoic acid, an antioxidant) directly improves memory and learning capability, and protects the aged brain from certain other structural changes. And it increases acetylcholine as well, through increasing the activity of the enzyme which manufactures it. And it improves mitochondrial function, leading to a slight increase in energy without being stimulating like caffeine (I take it for this reason, and I'm 28).

Lion's Mane mushroom is the other primary candidate for an NGF drug. It contains several families of NGF inducers (depending on whether you get fruit body or mycelium extract), one of which is the most effective known. It's also been shown to alleviate dementia in a few studies.

I don't see why you couldn't combine all three of these. ALCAR and Hup A both increase acetylcholine levels, so I'd wait until she's used to Hup A and then add ALCAR cautiously, seeing if she gets a slight headache (sign of too much choline, but no other problems). But at her age and moderate dosages I'd doubt it.

For complete disclosure I should say that I'm not very conversant with blood-pressure conditions and drugs, so I won't say for certain that these won't affect her meds. I haven't seen anything to indicate that these impact the cardiovascular system in any way, but I know next to nothing about the medications. Other members might have a better idea, or you could ask her doctor...hopefully he's not the kind to say not to take these just because they're "supplements."

now i was interested in alcar myself, nut i was afraid of issues with its pro-oxidant behavior. does vit c help at all. or i need ala for it to work. also whats doses say for me under alcar and ala? Im 22.

[NIMh714]

Anybody mention pregnenolone yet? That's an old person cognitive enhancer. Cheap at any grocery store from what I recall. Piracetam will scrub the walls of lipofuscin off, and huperzine A will disable acetylcholinesterase.

Those are my top 3 cognitive enhancing picks.

Oh, and Krill/fish/or seal oil + B complex is the foundation to a cognitive enhancing stack no matter what stack you're tailoring for a person.

she is on the staples. multi vit , fish oil @ 4g, and b complex, unsure of dose.

[chrono]

now i was interested in alcar myself, nut i was afraid of issues with its pro-oxidant behavior. does vit c help at all. or i need ala for it to work. also whats doses say for me under alcar and ala? Im 22.

Pro-oxidation was determined in the original Ames rat mechanism studies. I think it's debatable whether it happens in humans at all. ALA was shown to pretty much nullify this in the follow-up study, which is why most people take them together, and they're sold together that way (just picked this up at Walmart to hold me over until my next bulk order). Don't know if vit c would be specifically effective.

Doses of .5-1.5g are the usual range. I take 1g twice daily on an empty stomach. Don't know why you couldn't take it at that age. There have only been a few studies in the young, and its improvements don't seem to be as pronounced as on older brains, but I notice a significant improvement in focus and thinking speed. I use it with piracetam, and it synergizes amazingly well, and acts as a sufficient choline source (at least for me).

[NIMh714]

now i was interested in alcar myself, nut i was afraid of issues with its pro-oxidant behavior. does vit c help at all. or i need ala for it to work. also whats doses say for me under alcar and ala? Im 22.

Pro-oxidation was determined in the original Ames rat mechanism studies. I think it's debatable whether it happens in humans at all. ALA was shown to pretty much nullify this in the follow-up study, which is why most people take them together, and they're sold together that way (just picked this up at Walmart to hold me over until my next bulk order). Don't know if vit c would be specifically effective.

Doses of .5-1.5g are the usual range. I take 1g twice daily on an empty stomach. Don't know why you couldn't take it at that age. There have only been a few studies in the young, and its improvements don't seem to be as pronounced as on older brains, but I notice a significant improvement in focus and thinking speed. I use it with piracetam, and it synergizes amazingly well, and acts as a sufficient choline source (at least for me).

fair enough bro. I'll stay off of it for now. Its not big deal. I'll get her the huperzine. Any particular place its worth buying at 100mcg per cap?

[chrono]

fair enough bro. I'll stay off of it for now. Its not big deal. I'll get her the huperzine. Any particular place its worth buying at 100mcg per cap?

Think you might have misunderstood me...I was encouraging you to take it. Just saying that some of the mechanisms are better at addressing age-specific cognitive problems. But there are a lot of mechanisms, and many find the effect quite noticeable. I think it should be right up there with piracetam as one of the first nootropics to try; possibly higher.

[NIMh714]

Ok anyplace that has them two alcar and ala in one?

Also how do you feel about Citrulline malate?

Edited by MrOneEyedBoh, 27 April 2010 - 11:14 PM.

[chrono]

Ok anyplace that has them two alcar and ala in one?

Also how do you feel about Citrulline malate?

There are four groceries/pharmacies in my small town that have ALCAR+ALA combos. Otherwise, iHerb is probably your best bet for getting capsules like this at a good price.

[NIMh714]

Ok anyplace that has them two alcar and ala in one?

Also how do you feel about Citrulline malate?

There are four groceries/pharmacies in my small town that have ALCAR+ALA combos. Otherwise, iHerb is probably your best bet for getting capsules like this at a good price.

Thanks.