14 replies to this topic

[rooter]

I am just finishing up my 4th bottle of LEF's Optimized 250 (one/day), and definitely have improved stamina, energy, and well-being. I think there is something to this. However the rapacious and violent diarrhea I have every single day makes this a somewhat miserable regimen. I now understand why: the emodin content of this ground-up japanese ironweed.

In studying various forums, I've about come to the conclusion that:
- I'll buy the micronized type, whether in bulk or capped;
- I've always emptied the LEF caps and swished them around for up to ten minutes, as I read that 97% of RESV is destroyed in digestion, so I'll continue this practice;
- I'm upping my dose to 500mg or 1g depending on cost.

A few questions:

- I've taken aminoguanidine for 15 years, and am told I look 15 years younger than my age. But I quickly found that aminoguanidine plus resveritrol creates total body ache and joint pain from inflammation. Only when I discontinue one or the other does it go away, so there is some sort of interaction. Has anyone else experienced this? Is the problem specifically with resveritrol, or is it with some indole in the LEF powder?

- I see that RevGenetics is highly regarded here. Is there any other credible source for micronized RESV? I certainly do not trust Chinese sources unless tested. Are there any bulk buys going on?

- Does the gelatin in the caps have any laxative effect? I am perfectly happy with my body's natural rhythm, and don't need any help in that department.

- I've read here that RESV in high-high doses can cause liver damage. I'd prefer to just damage my liver with alcohol. Is there any info on what level of RESV approaches this?

- I've read that the actual process of aging is three-fold: oxidization (biological 'rusting'), unravelling of telemeres, and glycation of proteins. I took aminoguanidine for many years to address glycation and I believe it helps alot, but I've always wanted to control telemere unravelling and oxydization. Does resveritrol control these three factors, and if so by what mechanism?

- Does anyone know whatever happened to ALT711?

Edited by rooter, 27 April 2010 - 08:24 PM.

[unglued]

LEF says its product "provides 100% standardized trans-resveratrol", but usually "standardized" means concentrated to provide a certain percentage of the active ingredient. I've never heard it used to mean pure, and I've never heard of anyone claiming they sell 100% pure resveratrol. So I interpret that to mean that it's standardized to 50% trans-resveratrol, with the other half being a mix of red grape and Polygonum cuspidatum, percentages not stated. Since Polygonum cuspidatum has a lot more resveratrol than grape, it's probably the dominant source; my impression is that many manufacturers put in grape just because of customers like the idea of their resveratrol coming from wine.

As you seem to have figured out, you may be getting 45% or so random Polygonum cuspidatum (Japanese knotweed). Wikipedia says "Japanese knotweed is a concentrated source of emodin, used as a nutritional supplement to regulate bowel motility." You'll find a lot of people on this forum have reported problems with emodin when they take high doses of knotweed (something I personally didn't notice) and resolve it by switching to 98% or 99% resveratrol (including me).

RevGenetics claims to test the resveratrol they get from China. In fact, they post independent lab results, so I'm inclined to trust them, since I would expect that if they were committing outright forgery, someone would have found out by now. (Of course, that's what they said about Bernie Madoff, and of course Goldman Sacks is beyond reproach, so anything's possible. The only way to know for sure is to pay to get a sample tested yourself at an independent lab. But many of us take other supplements and don't hold the manufacturers to such a high standard.)

As for telomere shortening, see http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=19921

[unglued]

Also, to directly answer this question:

Is there any other credible source for micronized RESV?

See http://www.imminst.o...tch-t15059.html

It doesn't currently list any sources of micronized resveratrol, but lots of sources of regular powder and capsules.

[niner]

- I've taken aminoguanidine for 15 years, and am told I look 15 years younger than my age. But I quickly found that aminoguanidine plus resveritrol creates total body ache and joint pain from inflammation. Only when I discontinue one or the other does it go away, so there is some sort of interaction. Has anyone else experienced this? Is the problem specifically with resveritrol, or is it with some indole in the LEF powder?
I've never heard of this specific interaction with pure resveratrol. It might be the resveratrol, or it might be the other components in the 50% material. It doesn't sound good; I'd try a higher purity resveratrol.

- I see that RevGenetics is highly regarded here. Is there any other credible source for micronized RESV? I certainly do not trust Chinese sources unless tested. Are there any bulk buys going on?
I haven't heard of a bulk resveratrol buy in years. There are reliable commercial sources now.

- Does the gelatin in the caps have any laxative effect? I am perfectly happy with my body's natural rhythm, and don't need any help in that department.
No.

- I've read here that RESV in high-high doses can cause liver damage. I'd prefer to just damage my liver with alcohol. Is there any info on what level of RESV approaches this?
It would be a lot, maybe ten+ grams/d?. I don't recall reports of liver damage.

- I've read that the actual process of aging is three-fold: oxidization (biological 'rusting'), unravelling of telemeres, and glycation of proteins. I took aminoguanidine for many years to address glycation and I believe it helps alot, but I've always wanted to control telemere unravelling and oxydization. Does resveritrol control these three factors, and if so by what mechanism?
It's more than three-fold. Aubrey deGrey cites seven major causes. Then there's this. You'll need more than just resveratrol.

- Does anyone know whatever happened to ALT711?
The company folded (reborn under a new name) after the drug turned out not to be very helpful for control of hypertension in humans. It's active on only one class of crosslinks that constitute something like 5% of the crosslinks in humans, IIRC. There may still be something to it, particularly in diabetic nephropathy. I'm sorry that it didn't work out as a bp drug; it would have been a good agent to have in the pharmacopoeia. You can find it; there are people who synthesize it, probably chinese labs.

[mikeinnaples]

A few questions:

- I've taken aminoguanidine for 15 years, and am told I look 15 years younger than my age. But I quickly found that aminoguanidine plus resveritrol creates total body ache and joint pain from inflammation. Only when I discontinue one or the other does it go away, so there is some sort of interaction. Has anyone else experienced this? Is the problem specifically with resveritrol, or is it with some indole in the LEF powder?

Where do you get your aminoguanidine? A PM works There have been issues with joint pain purely attributed to resveratrol in a 'few' people. There is a very long thread about it in this forum that I would suggest reading. I believe the resolution was increased intake of vitamin D. Do be aware that if you are taking a statin, anything that inhi bits cytochrome P450 enzyme CYP3A4 metabolism can cause increased effects of the drug and my result in myopathy/cramping as well. (piperine, quercetin, possibly curcumin and resv as well ...though i think resv may act on CYP1A1 rather than CYP3A4 so look that up yourself)

- I see that RevGenetics is highly regarded here. Is there any other credible source for micronized RESV? I certainly do not trust Chinese sources unless tested. Are there any bulk buys going on?

Bulk buys are a thing of the past. Haven't seen on in years. Revgentics is highly regarded here because they independently test thier product rather than relying on the word of thier supplier and are very up front and open.

- Does the gelatin in the caps have any laxative effect? I am perfectly happy with my body's natural rhythm, and don't need any help in that department.

No

- I've read here that RESV in high-high doses can cause liver damage. I'd prefer to just damage my liver with alcohol. Is there any info on what level of RESV approaches this?

Never heard of liver issues with resv. Can you cite your source?

- I've read that the actual process of aging is three-fold: oxidization (biological 'rusting'), unravelling of telemeres, and glycation of proteins. I took aminoguanidine for many years to address glycation and I believe it helps alot, but I've always wanted to control telemere unravelling and oxydization. Does resveritrol control these three factors, and if so by what mechanism?

There is more too it than that. See the other posters' answers above.

- Does anyone know whatever happened to ALT711?

Bankrupt? Not sure

[rooter]

Thanks for the input peoples.

unglued, on the telemere threads, it appears the conclusion is compounds are almost completely unproven, and the focus is on trying to use specific compounds being tested by one or two labs. Progress is very immature at this point, and compounds are frightfully expensive. For some reason though they think very highly of fish oil?

Where do you get your aminoguanidine? A PM works

Sorry, I have to buy powder from a chemical supply under guise of using it for testing production equipment. Very difficult to get 98% pure powder, as it's 'not for human consumption'. I have almost no money, and it really should be independently tested, in order for me to suggest a bulk buy. The lab is in North America.

I have taken aminoguanidine for 15 years though, and I can tell you it works. I am 56, and was mistaken yesterday for a 30 year old, and do feel 30. I did have to stop taking it though in favor of resveratrol (post above), but when I get pure RESV I'll try it again.

On liver damage by RESV, it's just snippets of worry in threads here and there. Nothing concrete.

There is more too it (aging) than that. See the other posters' answers above.

Ugh. I must work long hours for what little pay I get, and have no time to research and learn everything. I guess I'll stick with what I can do.

Although one of my questions is, if RESV does 'rejuvenate' cells (mitochondria?), maybe it tackles multiple avenues of aging in that massive chart?

WTH is fish oil good for? Maybe fish oil would help dissolve RESV for better absorption, although buccal has worked quite well for me given the obvious improvement to my well-being since beginning RESV.

Edited by rooter, 28 April 2010 - 03:42 PM.

[rooter]

I am intrigued by this thread. It seems well established by Sirtris that 98% of RESV is destroyed in digestion before it enters the blood, thus buccal administration is best.

But it seems that trans-polydatin is a precursor of RESV, and is converted when ingested, giving much higher levels of RESV in the blood than would otherwise be possible! And that polydatin is ten times more prevalent in red wine than RESV. It adds up, but of course there's been no research.

Hedgehog says that kingherbs.com here in Seattle has polydatin, so I'll look into that. Maybe it won't interact with aminoguanidine as well. If it doesn't work I'll know, as the effects of RESV are obvious.

[Anthony_Loera]

I believe it is by metabolism, not digestion that is why there is such a large amount of posts regarding increasing resveratrol absorption, resveratrol in ethanol, micronized res, res and gelatin, etc, etc, etc.

Here is another thread in regards to Polydatin:
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=23781

Fish oil? No, but Omega-3 (like many other things) may help reduce the rate of telomere attrition. While the molecules in patents and studies may increase telomeres through telomerase. Read through the whole thread. If you skim through it, you will miss quite a bit.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 28 April 2010 - 06:33 PM.

[rooter]

Oh yes, metabolism. I wasn't precise enough.

Well I'm pretty confused now. The Nitro product combines RESV and a precursor to try and balance the initial spike with longer-term release. I don't know which one is better, but I suspect longer-term release is.

And as I understood, a given amount of polydatin gets far more RESV in the blood, due to its indirect action, despite the fact that it has 1/1.71 less RESV molecules. To me, the idea is that as polydatin is metabolized to RESV, it is a far more effective delivery mechanism. Why would a short spike in RESV be beneficial? As the idea is to replace aged cells with rejuvinated ones, seems like the best influence is constant over time.

[rooter]

Here's a very helpful reply I got from kingherbs.com:

I am traveling in China right now. I've visited three resveratrol factories in Hunan. They all have labs with HPLC equipment. I've watched them test, but I still test when importing shipments. I can get small quantities of Polydatin 98% from Xi'an chemical, but the grade is inferior to what they can make in Hunan. (Anthocyanines, bitter taste, off-color.) But it is only made in Hunan on special order, which they want to be at least 50 kilos.

They discovered that they could ferment the Polygonum roots before extracting. This breaks down the sugars, including the sugar group in the polydatin molecule, which converts polydatin to resveratrol. This doubles the yield, which has reduced the price of resveratrol by maybe 30%. So making polydatin is a different process, and more costly.

Polydatin also converts to resveratrol when ingested, raising blood levels of resveratrol. However, the advantage of doing this is only theoretcal, and I believe it is not necessary. I have observed that one can obtain the desired effects of resveratrol on a dose of about 500 mg/day, though higher doses will bring about benefits such as mitochondrial neogenesis more quickly. Once a 'saturation' point is reached after 6 months to a year a maintenance dose of 500 mg, or even less, in my experience is all one needs. At a constant dose of 500 mg I'd expect to see results more slowly. The only exception might be if one were attempting to deal with a form of cancer that resveratrol might eliminate, such as breast cancer or other solid-mass vascularized tumors. Then one might want a very high blood serum level, and very high doses of 2 grams or more might be appropriate. I've seen this done in canines.

The gist of it: you do not really need polydatin, it would be a very expensive way to get resveratrol even if readily available. If you want 50 kilos, we can talk price.

Though I have a Seattle phone, I actually work out of New York where my stock is located. If you want to order 98 or 99% resveratrol samples (100 mg) I can ship them when I return next week. If you want a kilo or more, I can get a very good price for you.

Basic price right now is 100mg samples $95 for 98% ; $120 for 99%. This is material I use myself. It is sealed in plastic bags. It is not micronized, but the particle size averages under 10 microns, Even micronized powders tend to clump into larger particles due to electrostatic effects once the packaging is opened.

Edited by rooter, 28 April 2010 - 10:34 PM.

[tadgh78]

I am 56, and was mistaken yesterday for a 30 year old, and do feel 30.

You don't mention your ethnicity. If you are have an Africian or Asian background then having somewhat younger looking skin would not be that unsual. If you are ethnicially european and look 25 years younger than your actual age you'd be talk-show material.

I for one would like to see a photo of you now plus a photo of you at around age 30.

[mikeinnaples]

Oh yes, metabolism. I wasn't precise enough.

Well I'm pretty confused now. The Nitro product combines RESV and a precursor to try and balance the initial spike with longer-term release. I don't know which one is better, but I suspect longer-term release is.

And as I understood, a given amount of polydatin gets far more RESV in the blood, due to its indirect action, despite the fact that it has 1/1.71 less RESV molecules. To me, the idea is that as polydatin is metabolized to RESV, it is a far more effective delivery mechanism. Why would a short spike in RESV be beneficial? As the idea is to replace aged cells with rejuvinated ones, seems like the best influence is constant over time.

The reason why a spike is beneficial has been dsicussed pretty extensively here. The best advice I can offer is to read the material and draw your own conclusions.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 29 April 2010 - 12:32 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Ugh. I must work long hours for what little pay I get, and have no time to research and learn everything. I guess I'll stick with what I can do.

You and everyone else. It won't take you too long or much time to read the information. The nice thing is that most of the resveratrol knowledge publicly available has been nicely condensed into these forums.

[rooter]

You don't mention your ethnicity. If you are have an Africian or Asian background then having somewhat younger looking skin would not be that unsual. If you are ethnicially european and look 25 years younger than your actual age you'd be talk-show material.

German & Swedish extraction. Not interested in proving anything to you, you'll just have to take my word. Didn't say that -everyone- thinks I'm 30, but I am sometimes thought to be.

mike I'm sure everyone's busy. I am just limited in the time I can spend on this, and I am about out of it. I'll basically have to depend on the information I have at this point and move on. I -must- make a living; there's more to this than I've said, of course.

LEF's RESV has worked well for me, although I want to up the dose. Polydatin is expensive and rare, so I guess I must forgo it. I find that micronized is very expensive and I can't afford it, so I'll go with kingherb's bulk 98% for now. That's the best I can do, if there's no further substantive input.

[Anthony_Loera]

Bulk powder has always been the best, if you don't mind mixing it yourself... isn't it always that case if you are a DIY (do it yourself) type of person?

The non-micronized bulk powder is great, specially if you mix it in with ethanol to help dissolve it. However if you don't have the time or inclination... it may not be practical. The Micronized resveratrol bulk powder is not expensive, considering the higher absorption you get by simply doing nothing with it, and put it between your gum and cheek.

Having said that, I just got word that our bulk (non-micronized) resveratrol powder has arrived (It took longer than expected because of the Iceland volcanic ash issue preventing flights from getting here to the USA... but it is finally here).

Just need to test it using AACL like we always do, pouch it, and have it back on the website. Then you will have a new option, when considering bulk high purity non-micronized resveratrol powder.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 29 April 2010 - 02:45 PM.