66 replies to this topic

[captainbeefheart]

The BNP had 13,000 paying members at the 2007 leak, I think it was 19,000 paid members in the second leak. And since march 2010 the membership has increased by over 7,000. so that's 26,000 at least and perhaps another 4,000 inbetween the second leak and the membership ban. 960,000 voters in June 2009 and with turnout at like 30% I think at least 40,000 of the remaining millions would have voted BNP.

also with hindsight now on our side, they did pretty poorly at the election, and lost all their councillors that were up for re-election...

[thatperson]

Not all councillors nationwide, just those in Barking & dagenham + a few others.

They almost tripled their vote from 192,000ish to 560,000ish. Not only that but they manage to slightly increase the average vote per candidate, despite the fact that in the last election they only fielded candiates in high BNP support areas, now they stood in areas with much less support, but still increase the vote per candidate. Griffin may have lost, but they moved from the 8th Largest party in 2005 to 6th in 2009 to 5th in 2010. The green even got their first MP but did worse than the BNP in terms of votes, and even fell to 6th from 5th in 2009.

[Alex Libman]

Ha, by libertarian crack pots, yeah... Which is totally based on flawed starting point. But what amuses me is these people actually think there some how free thinkers when this sort of ideology has been what has been pushed by the state for the last thirty years. Of course we have regulation, but a bare amount because it's just not possible to have capitalism without regulation, even the ones that lead us aren't that stupid, because the horrors that would occur because of it would be a violent upraising once peoples standards of living rocketed down...

Pushed by the state?! That proves you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about... Libertarians are among the most likely groups to be thrown in concentration camps!

I think the only times the socialist establishment recognized libertarians as human beings was Hayek and Friedman winning a token Nobel prize, but that was done just to keep that institution relevant, and to much protest from the mainstream establishment. In your economic illiteracy you might also think that Reagan, Thatcher are libertarian - if you believe that you might as well believe that Lucky Charms are "magically delicious"! And calling Greenspan a libertarian is like calling Benedict Arnold an American Revolutionary!

The state uses capitalism the way the medieval church used science - only to empower itself while keeping the masses in ignorance!

Concur, the only reason why Libertarianism might seem reasonable is because it has never happened anywhere in the real world, maybe in few communities counting dozens here and there like first Puritan colonies comming close ( and actually primitive hunter - gatherer groups are mostly egalitarian, if you count out the chief and his clique, there is no stratification, so it's not like free market is somehow "natural" and communism "unnatural" ), so they have only neat theories on their side and guess what ? It won't happen, no politician is that stupid to let it all go freelly and just see what happens next with the country, perhaps when we start to colonize space, then they can try everything they want and I wish them well in other solar systems, but untill then - keep dreaming your dream guys !

Pure capitalism, like pure communism / fascism / socialism, never existed, but the causality between capitalism (i.e. economic freedom, lack of regulation, etc) and success is pretty darn close to 100%. The only exceptions I can think of are Israel (which gets a ton of ideologically-driven migration / trade / tourism / "security-industrial complex" contracts / foreign aid) and a few hydrocarbon-rich little kingdoms (including places like Norway).

And, for the millionth time - if you are so certain that free market capitalism is hopeless, then why are you using violence to prevent us from trying?!

[captainbeefheart]

Pushed by the state?! That proves you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about... Libertarians are among the most likely groups to be thrown in concentration camps!

I'm not sure where to start, and frankly a bit to tired to be that bothered. If you don't see the contradiction of capitalism with fundamental freedoms I'm not sure I can help you.

Whatever you want to call it society has always been one class oppressing another. Capitalism is simply a tool to do that, it's nothing more and has long become redundant in it's effectiveness to push forward society. Sure it did during the industrial revolution but it is clearly no more an effective mechanism, it's clumsy and very slow.

[captainbeefheart]

Not all councillors nationwide, just those in Barking & dagenham + a few others.

They almost tripled their vote from 192,000ish to 560,000ish. Not only that but they manage to slightly increase the average vote per candidate, despite the fact that in the last election they only fielded candiates in high BNP support areas, now they stood in areas with much less support, but still increase the vote per candidate. Griffin may have lost, but they moved from the 8th Largest party in 2005 to 6th in 2009 to 5th in 2010. The green even got their first MP but did worse than the BNP in terms of votes, and even fell to 6th from 5th in 2009.

They really should have pulled more votes for the amount of press they got. Griffin fully expected to take Barking, and certainly not to lose all their seats. Like the Lib Dems, it was an embarrassing result the way they were banging on beforehand.

[chris w]

Concur, the only reason why Libertarianism might seem reasonable is because it has never happened anywhere in the real world, maybe in few communities counting dozens here and there like first Puritan colonies comming close ( and actually primitive hunter - gatherer groups are mostly egalitarian, if you count out the chief and his clique, there is no stratification, so it's not like free market is somehow "natural" and communism "unnatural" ), so they have only neat theories on their side and guess what ? It won't happen, no politician is that stupid to let it all go freelly and just see what happens next with the country, perhaps when we start to colonize space, then they can try everything they want and I wish them well in other solar systems, but untill then - keep dreaming your dream guys !

Pure capitalism, like pure communism / fascism / socialism, never existed, but the causality between capitalism (i.e. economic freedom, lack of regulation, etc) and success is pretty darn close to 100%.

We will see how well Somalia is doing in the next decade...

And, for the millionth time - if you are so certain that free market capitalism is hopeless, then why are you using violence to prevent us from trying?!

What do you mean by that exactly ? I'm not working against you and Gordon Kahls of the world not to be able to make your fairy tale experimental communities in the middle of the ocean, from what I see today, it's more like I am being forced to live in a planet wide libertarian platform - each couple of years I see my state less and less willing to do things unbeneficial to big bussiness like the bank - insurance complex but beneficial financialy to citizens, why would I think that when the last man standing is the privateer and not the state, I won't have to eat grass ? The state, as weak as it is, is the only thing now between me and people who are very lousely playing on the stock market with my future retirement, with all those insurerers being involved in hand in hand price fixing ( they aren't punished with a fine as long as all of them are investing poorly ), yet can never be caught and pulled to inflict responsibility upon them, because of the sacred freedom of bussiness. So what ? When the state is abolished they all of the sudden will become responsible actors ? Sure, you can say that in libertarian future I can always move to a place with better working private services if the previous became monopolical, but I'm not very keen on becoming a life long economic nomad just because someone happened to be greedy.

Edited by chris w, 20 May 2010 - 11:49 PM.

[Alex Libman]

(Replied in my Anarcho-Capitalism thread.)

Edited by Alex Libman, 21 May 2010 - 02:46 AM.