do you think humanity will ever get the tech to survive without the sun and will be able to live indefinitely even after the sun dies?
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onge
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ity
Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans
Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:34 PM
Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:12 PM
Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:36 PM
Edited by forever freedom, 03 May 2010 - 09:36 PM.
Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:56 PM
Edited by chris w, 03 May 2010 - 09:56 PM.
Posted 04 May 2010 - 12:52 AM
do you think humanity will ever get the tech to survive without the sun and will be able to live indefinitely even after the sun dies?
Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:31 AM
do you think humanity will ever get the tech to survive without the sun and will be able to live indefinitely even after the sun dies?
This is a good question for anyone who asks basic questions about the cosmos. I don’t agree with Davies but this now kind of old book, is great in asking some basic questions. We are going to die a heat death in keeping with the second law of thermodynamics.
http://www.amazon.co...l...2358&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.co...P...&sr=1-2-ent
Some of his other books are also interesting.
As for Mayan writings, we don’t have long. We surely will be fried by a version of hell fire long before the sun burns out when it expands. We may be inside the surface of the sun. We have to get off the planet. I should say some of our offspring need to get off the earth for humanity to survive. We will go the way of the earth unless we have some other way to overcome its fate. We need a new heaven and earth.
Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:12 AM
Here is Amazon's review of Rejuvenating The Sun.do you think humanity will ever get the tech to survive without the sun and will be able to live indefinitely even after the sun dies?
This is a good question for anyone who asks basic questions about the cosmos. I don't agree with Davies but this now kind of old book, is great in asking some basic questions. We are going to die a heat death in keeping with the second law of thermodynamics.
http://www.amazon.co...l...2358&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.co...P...&sr=1-2-ent
Some of his other books are also interesting.
As for Mayan writings, we don't have long. We surely will be fried by a version of hell fire long before the sun burns out when it expands. We may be inside the surface of the sun. We have to get off the planet. I should say some of our offspring need to get off the earth for humanity to survive. We will go the way of the earth unless we have some other way to overcome its fate. We need a new heaven and earth.
i was reading this one book called REJUVENATING THE SUN... it talks about overcoming this issue. i was just curious what people thought about it.
Posted 04 May 2010 - 02:27 AM
The book is kind of interesting, but the concern is rather pointless. It makes the mistake of insisting that humanity will still occupy a form the same or similar to our current bodies, for one thing. It assumes that our understanding of physics and of the universe is complete, or nearly so, at this time, which is comical. It wildly mis-prioritizes concern, considering the much more near-term threats that we face.i was reading this one book called REJUVENATING THE SUN... it talks about overcoming this issue. i was just curious what people thought about it.
Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:42 PM
Posted 05 May 2010 - 01:16 AM
Not worried in the slightest.
Beyond Nanotech, beyond the Singularity even, we have the potential of String tech. All matter is energy in patterns. Alter the patterns you alter the matter. If we survive the Singularity, and String theory proves correct, (which is debatable) then we won't have to worry about it. Why rejuvenate when we could instead simply re-pattern the Sun into whatever stage we prefer?
Regardless, speculation of billions of years from now is rather pointless. We could discover tomorrow that our entire understanding of physics is utterly mistaken. Not in our observations, but in our theories as to underlying causes. All science is simply the best guesses we have been able to make based on currently available data. New observations could either confirm them, or disprove them completely.
Ask again in several billion years, I'll have a better idea by then.
Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:17 AM
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, what with the smiley, but I'll respond as though you're being serious.For now, we (humanity) has to get off this earth.
Posted 05 May 2010 - 02:36 AM
do you think humanity will ever get the tech to survive without the sun and will be able to live indefinitely even after the sun dies?
Posted 05 May 2010 - 05:07 AM
Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:36 PM
Posted 05 May 2010 - 07:39 PM
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, what with the smiley, but I'll respond as though you're being serious.For now, we (humanity) has to get off this earth.
No we don't. Not now. Probably never. You just pointed out the limitations of science. I contend that we don't yet have a full picture of either physics or the universe. Given that we have over a hundred thousand times the length of recorded history in which to get that sorted out before we need to worry about the sun swallowing us up, it would be lunacy to attempt to leave the planet in a significant way with current technology. Once we have a full understanding of physics and the universe, we will probably discover that we don't need to leave, or if we do, or just decide that we want to, we will have easy ways to do it. We may learn how to accomplish faster than light communication; perhaps incredibly faster. Perhaps we will be transdimensional beings that are everywhere at once, and getting off the earth will cease to have meaning.
Posted 06 May 2010 - 02:05 AM
I shall discuss three principal questions within the framework of the open
universe with the metric (6).
(1) Does the universe freeze into a state of permanent physical quiescence as
it expands and cools?
(2) Is it possible for life and intelligence to survive indefinitely?
(3) Is it possible to maintain communication and transmit information across
the constantly expanding distances between galaxies?
These three questions will be discussed in detail in Lectures 2, 3 and 4.
Tentatively, I shall answer them with a no, a yes, and a maybe. My answers are
perhaps only a reflection of my optimistic philosophical bias. I do not expect
everybody to agree with the answers. My purpose is to start people thinking
seriously about the questions.
...
If my view of the future is correct, it means that the world
of physics and astronomy is also inexhaustible; no matter how far we go into
the future, there will always be new things happening, new information coming
in, new worlds to explore, a constantly expanding domain of life,
consciousness, and memory.
Posted 06 May 2010 - 03:04 AM
Sure.niner
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, what with the smiley, but I'll respond as though you're being serious.shadowhawk:
For now, we (humanity) has to get off this earth.
No we don't. Not now. Probably never. You just pointed out the limitations of science. I contend that we don't yet have a full picture of either physics or the universe. Given that we have over a hundred thousand times the length of recorded history in which to get that sorted out before we need to worry about the sun swallowing us up, it would be lunacy to attempt to leave the planet in a significant way with current technology. Once we have a full understanding of physics and the universe, we will probably discover that we don't need to leave, or if we do, or just decide that we want to, we will have easy ways to do it. We may learn how to accomplish faster than light communication; perhaps incredibly faster. Perhaps we will be transdimensional beings that are everywhere at once, and getting off the earth will cease to have meaning.
"In a billion years [from now], it seems, intelligent life might be as different from humans as humans are from insects... To change from a human being to a cloud may seem a big order, but it's the kind of change you'd expect over billions of years."—*Freeman Dyson, Statement made in 1986, quoted in Asimov's Book of Science and Nature Quotations, p. 93 [American Mathematician].
John S. Lewis From 'Mining the Sky'
As long as the human population remains as pitifully small as it is today, we shall be severely limited in what we can accomplish. Human intelligence is the key to the future: human beings are not, as some would have it, a form of pollution.
Having only one Einstein, one Hokusai, one Mozart, one daVinci, one Shankara,... is not enough. We need -and can have- a million times as many.
We need intelligence, wisdom, compassion, and excellence. These godlike traits are manifested in the physical universe only by life, and in the biological universe, only by intelligent life.
Life is not a cancer of matter; it is matter's trancendance of itself.
The fulfillment of time & space is matter; the fulfillment of matter is life; the highest fulfillment of life is unbounded intelligence & compassion."
We would be quite wrong to conclude that the asteroid belt, or solar power... is the ultimate resource. Intelligent life, once liberated by the resources of space, is the greatest resource of the solar system.
The material and energy resources of the solar system allow mankind an infinite future: we can not only break free of the surly bonds of the Earth, but break free of the Sun and escape its fate.
"There is no way back into the past.
The choice is the universe -or nothing.
-- H.G. Wells
The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in 8 Easy Steps
By Marshall T. Savage
Author's introduction
http://lufwiki.pbworks.com/TMP%20Intro
Now is the watershed of Cosmic history. We stand at the threshold of the New Millennium. Behind us yawn the chasms of the primordial past, when this universe was a dead and silent place; before us rise the broad sunlit uplands of a living cosmos. In the next few galactic seconds, the fate of the universe will be decided. Life--the ultimate experiment--will either explode into space and engulf the star-clouds in a fire storm of children, trees, and butterfly wings; or Life will fail, fizzle, and gutter out, leaving the universe shrouded forever in impenetrable blankness, devoid of hope.
Teetering here on the fulcrum of destiny stands our own bemused species. The future of the universe hinges on what we do next. If we take up the sacred fire, and stride forth into space as the torchbearers of Life, this universe will be aborning. If we carry the green fire-brand from star to star, and ignite around each a conflagration of vitality, we can trigger a Universal metamorphosis. Because of us, the barren dusts of a million billion worlds will coil up into the pulsing magic forms of animate matter. Because of us, landscapes of radiation blasted waste, will be miraculously transmuted: Slag will become soil, grass will sprout, flowers will bloom, and forests will spring up in once sterile places. Ice, hard as iron, will melt and trickle into pools where starfish, anemones, and seashells dwell--a whole frozen universe will thaw and transmogrify, from howling desolation to blossoming paradise. Dust into Life; the very alchemy of God.
If we deny our awesome challenge; turn our backs on the living universe, and forsake our cosmic destiny, we will commit a crime of unutterable magnitude. mankind alone has the power to carry out this fundamental change in the universe. Our failure would lead to consequences unthinkable. This is perhaps the first and only chance the universe will ever have to awaken from its long night and live. We are the caretakers of this delicate spark of Life. To let it flicker and die through ignorance, neglect, or lack of imagination is a horror too great to contemplate.
...
Scanning the star clouds of the Milky Way with the beacon of the mind's eye, we see that it is wholly uninhabited. All these treasures strewn before us are free for the taking. There is no guardian genie. There are no alien owners to be bargained with, no evil empires to be vanquished, not even a galactic bureaucracy to demand emigration forms in triplicate. The galaxy is free and open now in a way it never will be again. Our species can skate across the glassy spaces, sliding unfettered through the blizzard of stars, skimming down the frosty spiral arms to the snowy banks of the galactic nucleus.
For better or worse, Life has evolved Homo Sapiens as the active agent of her purpose. We are the sentient tool-users. Perhaps Life should have bet on the dolphins. But, she put her money on us, and there is no time left for second guesses. Life has endowed us the with power to conquer the galaxy, and our destiny awaits us there, among the powdery star-fields of deep space. Now we must spring from our home planet and carry the living flame into the sterile wastes. It is time to return the gift of Prometheus to the heavens.
(cont'd)
He says elsewhere:
Our future lies in space, but the Earth is the womb of life, and it will be a long time before we can cut our umbilical cord. The new worlds we wish to create can survive only if the Mother of Life (Gaia) is here to nourish them. If we are to fulfil our Cosmic destiny as the harbingers of Life, we must insure the survival of the planet....Our rapacious demands are overtaxing the ability of Gaia to regenerate herself. The result is a dying planet.
We must find a way to avert this catastrophe."
Posted 06 May 2010 - 08:59 PM
Sure.niner
I'm not sure if you're kidding or not, what with the smiley, but I'll respond as though you're being serious.shadowhawk:
For now, we (humanity) has to get off this earth.
No we don't. Not now. Probably never. You just pointed out the limitations of science. I contend that we don't yet have a full picture of either physics or the universe. Given that we have over a hundred thousand times the length of recorded history in which to get that sorted out before we need to worry about the sun swallowing us up, it would be lunacy to attempt to leave the planet in a significant way with current technology. Once we have a full understanding of physics and the universe, we will probably discover that we don't need to leave, or if we do, or just decide that we want to, we will have easy ways to do it. We may learn how to accomplish faster than light communication; perhaps incredibly faster. Perhaps we will be transdimensional beings that are everywhere at once, and getting off the earth will cease to have meaning.
I'll bet someone in Kenya =~70,000 years ago said that they might as well sit tight and wait until we develop jet airliners and communications satellites. No sense walking north into the teeth of an ice age, just because of the population pressures or whatever drove our ancestors out of Africa.
No we don't have a full picture. It should be an axiom of science that the more questions there are about a subject, and the more to the root of the subject the questions are, the more likely it is that our understanding of it is due for a major revision.
Hardly a reason to not try to adress the problems we see today, with what we know now.
I'll echo "shadowhawk":
We, now, this generation, needs to make things happen and start moving the human interests out into the solar system. Long overdue.
Since the O-Neill colony studies of the mid'70s, no new inventions needed. Strong answers to all of the major problems facing us as a global civilization and species.
It's said that our moving into space is the greatest step a species has taken since the evolution of the lung.
Bucky Fuller said that it's instructive to look at it as if the Earth were a car's battery, and the solar system is the engine: We've been going about our business by running the battery down, not thinking to start the engine so we can keep the battery up and actually get somewhere."In a billion years [from now], it seems, intelligent life might be as different from humans as humans are from insects... To change from a human being to a cloud may seem a big order, but it's the kind of change you'd expect over billions of years."—*Freeman Dyson, Statement made in 1986, quoted in Asimov's Book of Science and Nature Quotations, p. 93 [American Mathematician].
John S. Lewis From 'Mining the Sky'
As long as the human population remains as pitifully small as it is today, we shall be severely limited in what we can accomplish. Human intelligence is the key to the future: human beings are not, as some would have it, a form of pollution.
Having only one Einstein, one Hokusai, one Mozart, one daVinci, one Shankara,... is not enough. We need -and can have- a million times as many.
We need intelligence, wisdom, compassion, and excellence. These godlike traits are manifested in the physical universe only by life, and in the biological universe, only by intelligent life.
Life is not a cancer of matter; it is matter's trancendance of itself.
The fulfillment of time & space is matter; the fulfillment of matter is life; the highest fulfillment of life is unbounded intelligence & compassion."
We would be quite wrong to conclude that the asteroid belt, or solar power... is the ultimate resource. Intelligent life, once liberated by the resources of space, is the greatest resource of the solar system.
The material and energy resources of the solar system allow mankind an infinite future: we can not only break free of the surly bonds of the Earth, but break free of the Sun and escape its fate.
"There is no way back into the past.
The choice is the universe -or nothing.
-- H.G. WellsThe Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in 8 Easy Steps
By Marshall T. Savage
Author's introduction
http://lufwiki.pbworks.com/TMP%20Intro
Now is the watershed of Cosmic history. We stand at the threshold of the New Millennium. Behind us yawn the chasms of the primordial past, when this universe was a dead and silent place; before us rise the broad sunlit uplands of a living cosmos. In the next few galactic seconds, the fate of the universe will be decided. Life--the ultimate experiment--will either explode into space and engulf the star-clouds in a fire storm of children, trees, and butterfly wings; or Life will fail, fizzle, and gutter out, leaving the universe shrouded forever in impenetrable blankness, devoid of hope.
Teetering here on the fulcrum of destiny stands our own bemused species. The future of the universe hinges on what we do next. If we take up the sacred fire, and stride forth into space as the torchbearers of Life, this universe will be aborning. If we carry the green fire-brand from star to star, and ignite around each a conflagration of vitality, we can trigger a Universal metamorphosis. Because of us, the barren dusts of a million billion worlds will coil up into the pulsing magic forms of animate matter. Because of us, landscapes of radiation blasted waste, will be miraculously transmuted: Slag will become soil, grass will sprout, flowers will bloom, and forests will spring up in once sterile places. Ice, hard as iron, will melt and trickle into pools where starfish, anemones, and seashells dwell--a whole frozen universe will thaw and transmogrify, from howling desolation to blossoming paradise. Dust into Life; the very alchemy of God.
If we deny our awesome challenge; turn our backs on the living universe, and forsake our cosmic destiny, we will commit a crime of unutterable magnitude. mankind alone has the power to carry out this fundamental change in the universe. Our failure would lead to consequences unthinkable. This is perhaps the first and only chance the universe will ever have to awaken from its long night and live. We are the caretakers of this delicate spark of Life. To let it flicker and die through ignorance, neglect, or lack of imagination is a horror too great to contemplate.
...
Scanning the star clouds of the Milky Way with the beacon of the mind's eye, we see that it is wholly uninhabited. All these treasures strewn before us are free for the taking. There is no guardian genie. There are no alien owners to be bargained with, no evil empires to be vanquished, not even a galactic bureaucracy to demand emigration forms in triplicate. The galaxy is free and open now in a way it never will be again. Our species can skate across the glassy spaces, sliding unfettered through the blizzard of stars, skimming down the frosty spiral arms to the snowy banks of the galactic nucleus.
For better or worse, Life has evolved Homo Sapiens as the active agent of her purpose. We are the sentient tool-users. Perhaps Life should have bet on the dolphins. But, she put her money on us, and there is no time left for second guesses. Life has endowed us the with power to conquer the galaxy, and our destiny awaits us there, among the powdery star-fields of deep space. Now we must spring from our home planet and carry the living flame into the sterile wastes. It is time to return the gift of Prometheus to the heavens.
(cont'd)
He says elsewhere:
Our future lies in space, but the Earth is the womb of life, and it will be a long time before we can cut our umbilical cord. The new worlds we wish to create can survive only if the Mother of Life (Gaia) is here to nourish them. If we are to fulfil our Cosmic destiny as the harbingers of Life, we must insure the survival of the planet....Our rapacious demands are overtaxing the ability of Gaia to regenerate herself. The result is a dying planet.
We must find a way to avert this catastrophe."
Fermi's paradox of aliens stands firmly rooted in silencce. They should be here and everywhere, yet there's not a sign of them anywhere "Where are they?" he asked, since we (in 1947) can already see ways we could do it.
Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:29 PM
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