17 replies to this topic

[Aimilee]

Lately, I have been struggling to think clearly or sometimes even produce thoughts at all. It's like I know I have some insight on a certain matter but I just cannot access it, like a feeling that I have deeper knowledge on a subject but, can not bring it to the surface. It's so frustrating! I feel like a complete idiot in social situations because, I'll get that deer in headlights look on my face whenever its my turn to respond.
It seems that when this is not happening, I am having the extreme opposite effect. My mind will become flooded with thoughts and words to describe those thoughts in a very disorganized manner. This obviously makes it very difficult to express my ideas and, let me just say, when I am actually able to, the result is far from eloquent. This is killing me!
I was diagnosed with major depression about 15 years ago then, "Pure O" OCD about 6 years ago. Needless to say I have had some focus and attention issues for quite a large part of my life.
I was on an antidepressants for a few years and they seems to have helped with some of these issues. Though, certainly not all of them.
I tapered myself off of the Antidepressants about 8-9 months ago. I was on Sertraline 200 mgs and Bupropion 300 mgs. I was having some trouble when I first came off of them, but nothing like this. I should also mention that I quit smoking marijuana about 4 months ago after about 12 years of regular use.
I have an appt with a psychiatrist next week to get back on the medication. They only problem is that I am taking some pretty intense courses this summer starting June 7 and that only gives me 3 weeks to adjust to the medication, and hope that it relieves these symptoms.

Over the past several months I have tried a number of supplements including;

Omega 3: Seemed to have helped with my mood a bit
Theanine: Very calming but no change in verbal ability or thought organization
Phenylalanine: Gave me a strange tightening sensation in my head, and actually seemed to damage focus and alertness
Tyrosine: Same as above
Gotu Kola: No noticeable effect
Bacopa: Made me extremely tired so now I take it at night. No improvement since adding it.
Piracetam: Gave me brain fog even when I took it with choline, made it more difficult to speak and very cranky. ( I had such high hopes for that one:( )

I just ordered deprenyl and I'm wondering if I made a bad decision. From what I have read it can increase anxiety and am not sure if it will produce the results that I require. I also would I be able to take with an SSRI?

Any advice that anybody has would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

Edited by Aimilee, 12 May 2010 - 02:20 PM.

[Animal]

You can take Depreny with an SSRI, just keep the dosage of Deprenyl at 10mgs or less, you don't even want to take a slight chance of inhibiting MAO-A. If that happens serotonin syndrome will gradually develop and that can have horrific long term effects if occurring over a prolonged period.

[Aimilee]

You can take Depreny with an SSRI, just keep the dosage of Deprenyl at 10mgs or less, you don't even want to take a slight chance of inhibiting MAO-A. If that happens serotonin syndrome will gradually develop and that can have horrific long term effects if occurring over a prolonged period.

Thanks Animal. Does deprenyl typically have any effect on the issues that I have described, aside from depression? What would you recommend my starting dose be? I read somewhere on this forum that your tolerance actually lowers after extended use. Is this true? Thanks again.

[penisbreath]

i've also been diagnosed with pure-o, and am experiencing similar problems to you - i.e. difficulty elaborating on thoughts, and storing information in my short-term memory. i tried describing the problem to my psych, but he wasn't exactly sympathetic, writing it off as anxiety... i've kinda spent the last two years wondering if i could *ever* think clearly, though i'm certain things weren't always like this ...

the only real breakthrough i had was with ritalin, though it caused too much anxiety to continue

interestingly, i've also been looking into depreny, but am concerned it might exacerbate my OCD. i'd be interested in hearing others' opinions, and how you get on ...

[Animal]

You can take Depreny with an SSRI, just keep the dosage of Deprenyl at 10mgs or less, you don't even want to take a slight chance of inhibiting MAO-A. If that happens serotonin syndrome will gradually develop and that can have horrific long term effects if occurring over a prolonged period.

Thanks Animal. Does deprenyl typically have any effect on the issues that I have described, aside from depression? What would you recommend my starting dose be? I read somewhere on this forum that your tolerance actually lowers after extended use. Is this true? Thanks again.

Your problem seems complicated and could be due to a myriad of different neurochemical pathway derangements or a combination of such. The only way to know if Deprenyl will help is to take it, but be prepared for up to a month period where it's effects are minimal or even undesirable until you adjust to it.

It can facilitate an improvement in mental clarity and verbal fluency but it would be subtle unless combined with another dopaminergic substance. In my opinion Deprenyl only really shows it's strength when combined with other psychoactive pharmaceuticals.

You should just start straight away with 10mgs per day taken in the morning. This will markedly reduce the adjustment period but may result in the typical dopamine agonist fatigue manifesting during the first week of use. Push past it, it's not so bad, especially if you can nap every now and then.

Edited by Animal, 13 May 2010 - 04:58 PM.

[gamesguru]

What type of house do you live in?
What is your job like?
What does your diet primarily consist of?

How long have you noticed this effect for (since age 15? 25? 5?)?
How often do these mental lapses and "clumsy" racing thoughts cycle (I get them both once a day, both once twice a day, both once a week, mental lapses 10 hours a day then 4 hours racing thoughts then 10 more hours...ect)?


I don't want to give any false hopes or wrongly lead you to waste money/time on a medicine that won't help you...but I have a few starting thoughts on what to do.

[Aimilee]

What type of house do you live in?
What is your job like?
What does your diet primarily consist of?

How long have you noticed this effect for (since age 15? 25? 5?)?
How often do these mental lapses and "clumsy" racing thoughts cycle (I get them both once a day, both once twice a day, both once a week, mental lapses 10 hours a day then 4 hours racing thoughts then 10 more hours...ect)?


I don't want to give any false hopes or wrongly lead you to waste money/time on a medicine that won't help you...but I have a few starting thoughts on what to do.

Hi dasheenster. Thanks for resonding.

As for your questions:

I live in a 1900 sq ft, single family, contemporary farmhouse, well ventilated, quiet, sort of out in the sticks. (I'm curious as to what this will tell you)

I own a residential/commercial eco friendly cleaning business. I will begin studying to be a nurse this June.

Depending on how active I am, I typically eat about a 1500-1700 calorie per day lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet making sure I get a complete protein with every meal and supplementing with a b complex, b12 and a multivitamin.

Well, I think I have been feeling this way off and on since I was about 20. But it has gotten progressively worse since coming off the medication 8 months ago and even worse since quitting smoking weed.

I would have to say the majority of the day, unless I am just vegging out and able to just not think I am experiencing either the mental lapses or the mental disorganization. I don't know if I would describe it as racing thoughts though. I guess, more like thoughts competing with each other to be at the forefront, just a really disorganized mess. Errrrr I'm struggling here to decribe it.

I'm interested in what your ideas are. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. Thanks.

[Animal]

It sounds like it could be a mood disorder, rather then some sort of organic cognitive deficit. Mood and cognition are inexorably linked.

[Aimilee]

It sounds like it could be a mood disorder, rather then some sort of organic cognitive deficit. Mood and cognition are inexorably linked.

I definitely do have a mood disorder and I am almost certain that these symptoms are linked but, is there not a way to correct the issues that psychiatric medication seems to not fully address?
I am also curious about why smoking the marijuana seemed to slightly reduce the problem with speech, not that I am planning on picking it back up because, it affected other crucial cognitive functions negatively, but I am wondering if this may be a clue as to what and where the problem lies.

[Rational Madman]

You can take Depreny with an SSRI, just keep the dosage of Deprenyl at 10mgs or less, you don't even want to take a slight chance of inhibiting MAO-A. If that happens serotonin syndrome will gradually develop and that can have horrific long term effects if occurring over a prolonged period.

Although possibly an efficacious combo for some users, I'm uncomfortable with the paucity of research interest in this combination---which might be stemming from a possible interaction problem that I have yet to become aware of in my limited research of MAO inhibitors. And further, although I cannot personally attest to the relative effectiveness of Deprenyl, the qualitative and quantitative evidence that I've seen does not seem to strongly support its efficacy monotherapeutically or adjunctively. This is not to suggest that you've distinguished yourself as a firm advocate for its use in either manner. However, I think there is some reason---besides potential health hazards and my aforementioned concern---that makes psychiatrists reluctant to consider it as a treatment option.

Edited by Rol82, 21 May 2010 - 07:39 AM.

[Rational Madman]

Lately, I have been struggling to think clearly or sometimes even produce thoughts at all. It's like I know I have some insight on a certain matter but I just cannot access it, like a feeling that I have deeper knowledge on a subject but, can not bring it to the surface. It's so frustrating! I feel like a complete idiot in social situations because, I'll get that deer in headlights look on my face whenever its my turn to respond.
It seems that when this is not happening, I am having the extreme opposite effect. My mind will become flooded with thoughts and words to describe those thoughts in a very disorganized manner. This obviously makes it very difficult to express my ideas and, let me just say, when I am actually able to, the result is far from eloquent. This is killing me!
I was diagnosed with major depression about 15 years ago then, "Pure O" OCD about 6 years ago. Needless to say I have had some focus and attention issues for quite a large part of my life.
I was on an antidepressants for a few years and they seems to have helped with some of these issues. Though, certainly not all of them.
I tapered myself off of the Antidepressants about 8-9 months ago. I was on Sertraline 200 mgs and Bupropion 300 mgs. I was having some trouble when I first came off of them, but nothing like this. I should also mention that I quit smoking marijuana about 4 months ago after about 12 years of regular use.
I have an appt with a psychiatrist next week to get back on the medication. They only problem is that I am taking some pretty intense courses this summer starting June 7 and that only gives me 3 weeks to adjust to the medication, and hope that it relieves these symptoms.

Over the past several months I have tried a number of supplements including;

Omega 3: Seemed to have helped with my mood a bit
Theanine: Very calming but no change in verbal ability or thought organization
Phenylalanine: Gave me a strange tightening sensation in my head, and actually seemed to damage focus and alertness
Tyrosine: Same as above
Gotu Kola: No noticeable effect
Bacopa: Made me extremely tired so now I take it at night. No improvement since adding it.
Piracetam: Gave me brain fog even when I took it with choline, made it more difficult to speak and very cranky. ( I had such high hopes for that one:( )

I just ordered deprenyl and I'm wondering if I made a bad decision. From what I have read it can increase anxiety and am not sure if it will produce the results that I require. I also would I be able to take with an SSRI?

Any advice that anybody has would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

If disordered thinking is confined to social situations, then a social anxiety diagnosis is more likely. But, if---as you suggest---it's more generalized, then this complaint may be symptomatic of another disorder. Until a more definitive diagnosis is made, the use of Deprenyl---which is unorthodox in most situations---would seem to be a bit premature and risky.

Edited by Rol82, 21 May 2010 - 07:47 AM.

[Rational Madman]

What type of house do you live in?
What is your job like?
What does your diet primarily consist of?

How long have you noticed this effect for (since age 15? 25? 5?)?
How often do these mental lapses and "clumsy" racing thoughts cycle (I get them both once a day, both once twice a day, both once a week, mental lapses 10 hours a day then 4 hours racing thoughts then 10 more hours...ect)?


I don't want to give any false hopes or wrongly lead you to waste money/time on a medicine that won't help you...but I have a few starting thoughts on what to do.

Hi dasheenster. Thanks for resonding.

As for your questions:

I live in a 1900 sq ft, single family, contemporary farmhouse, well ventilated, quiet, sort of out in the sticks. (I'm curious as to what this will tell you)

I own a residential/commercial eco friendly cleaning business. I will begin studying to be a nurse this June.

Depending on how active I am, I typically eat about a 1500-1700 calorie per day lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet making sure I get a complete protein with every meal and supplementing with a b complex, b12 and a multivitamin.

Well, I think I have been feeling this way off and on since I was about 20. But it has gotten progressively worse since coming off the medication 8 months ago and even worse since quitting smoking weed.

I would have to say the majority of the day, unless I am just vegging out and able to just not think I am experiencing either the mental lapses or the mental disorganization. I don't know if I would describe it as racing thoughts though. I guess, more like thoughts competing with each other to be at the forefront, just a really disorganized mess. Errrrr I'm struggling here to decribe it.

I'm interested in what your ideas are. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. Thanks.

Even with precautionary measures, not everyone is well suited for any form of a vegetarian diet---especially with the presence of mental illness. Unless you consider it to be unconscionable, it might be worth considering the reintegration of meat into your diet---so that your body's heightened need for amino acids is satiated. Increasing your caloric intake might help as well, because as far as I'm aware, there is limited evidence supporting the use of vegetarianism or calorie restriction for the treatment of mental illness. Indeed, besides being ill-advised in your case, both dieting approaches are considered to be contraindicated by more than a few researchers. Without deviating from the topic of mental illness too much, I should note that there are considerable methodological flaws in a number of the positive findings supporting vegetarianism---which is enough to give a generally unbiased mind like my own considerable pause. So, again, it might be worth seriously reflecting about the link between your dieting habits and your current state of mind. If you ultimately decide to reintroduce meat, you don't have to eat copious amounts---because such a course of action would be greatly at odds with findings on the correlates of longevity---and to address some of your possible concerns, there are a number of strategies to mitigate the potentially deleterious effects of meat consumption. Before you ask me to present you with further proof---which would require a PubMed search---I have encountered a number of cases of vegetarian induced depression.

Edited by Rol82, 21 May 2010 - 08:55 AM.

[Rational Madman]

It sounds like it could be a mood disorder, rather then some sort of organic cognitive deficit. Mood and cognition are inexorably linked.

I would concur, but before the original poster jumps to a potentially false conclusion, I would suggest that she seriously consider undergoing a neuropsychiatric examination. While initially expensive, it may greatly improve her prognosis, and reduce the incidence of error. And, by sparing the patient the considerable cost of under-treatment or contraindicated treatments, her recovery will be expedited, and most importantly, her earning potential may markedly increase.

[Rational Madman]

Lately, I have been struggling to think clearly or sometimes even produce thoughts at all. It's like I know I have some insight on a certain matter but I just cannot access it, like a feeling that I have deeper knowledge on a subject but, can not bring it to the surface. It's so frustrating! I feel like a complete idiot in social situations because, I'll get that deer in headlights look on my face whenever its my turn to respond.
It seems that when this is not happening, I am having the extreme opposite effect. My mind will become flooded with thoughts and words to describe those thoughts in a very disorganized manner. This obviously makes it very difficult to express my ideas and, let me just say, when I am actually able to, the result is far from eloquent. This is killing me!
I was diagnosed with major depression about 15 years ago then, "Pure O" OCD about 6 years ago. Needless to say I have had some focus and attention issues for quite a large part of my life.
I was on an antidepressants for a few years and they seems to have helped with some of these issues. Though, certainly not all of them.
I tapered myself off of the Antidepressants about 8-9 months ago. I was on Sertraline 200 mgs and Bupropion 300 mgs. I was having some trouble when I first came off of them, but nothing like this. I should also mention that I quit smoking marijuana about 4 months ago after about 12 years of regular use.
I have an appt with a psychiatrist next week to get back on the medication. They only problem is that I am taking some pretty intense courses this summer starting June 7 and that only gives me 3 weeks to adjust to the medication, and hope that it relieves these symptoms.

Over the past several months I have tried a number of supplements including;

Omega 3: Seemed to have helped with my mood a bit
Theanine: Very calming but no change in verbal ability or thought organization
Phenylalanine: Gave me a strange tightening sensation in my head, and actually seemed to damage focus and alertness
Tyrosine: Same as above
Gotu Kola: No noticeable effect
Bacopa: Made me extremely tired so now I take it at night. No improvement since adding it.
Piracetam: Gave me brain fog even when I took it with choline, made it more difficult to speak and very cranky. ( I had such high hopes for that one:( )

I just ordered deprenyl and I'm wondering if I made a bad decision. From what I have read it can increase anxiety and am not sure if it will produce the results that I require. I also would I be able to take with an SSRI?

Any advice that anybody has would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

Before I delve further, what was the rationale for tapering off either class of medication? From what I've gathered, you experienced the best results--albeit sub-optimal---with SSRIs, but when combined with Wellbutrin, this combination produced a unpalatable deterioration in some symptom categories, which consequentially compelled you to cease use of both agents. Did you adhere to tapering guidelines? Was the tapering conducted under the guidance of a psychiatrist? Did you ever use either class monotherapeutically? Do you have any idea of how each affected your mood independently? Did either result in a disturbance in your mood---especially in a way that might lend credence to a tentative mood disorder diagnosis?

Given your response to piracetam, which may have the undesired effect of unblocking calcium channels, I'm curious about your prior use of mood stabilizers? Although I'm very dubious about its efficacy, an empiric trial of lithium orotate might be worth investigating, because I believe its mood stabilizing effects to be more pronounced than the gabanergic l-theanine. And, if your response is positive, the use of a more effective mood stabilizer might be worth investigating---like lithium carbonate, Lamictal, Lyrica, or Gabapentin.

FYI, at the risk of sounding like a square, I believe marijuana use should be reserved for conditions marked by extraordinary pain. That is, if you are truly concerned about enhancing cognition, and adopting an evidence based approach. Most of the ostensible benefits are laughable, and easily disproven by any unbiased mind possessing a limited understanding of psychopharmacology.

Edited by Rol82, 21 May 2010 - 08:47 AM.

[Rational Madman]

What type of house do you live in?
What is your job like?
What does your diet primarily consist of?

How long have you noticed this effect for (since age 15? 25? 5?)?
How often do these mental lapses and "clumsy" racing thoughts cycle (I get them both once a day, both once twice a day, both once a week, mental lapses 10 hours a day then 4 hours racing thoughts then 10 more hours...ect)?


I don't want to give any false hopes or wrongly lead you to waste money/time on a medicine that won't help you...but I have a few starting thoughts on what to do.

Hi dasheenster. Thanks for resonding.

As for your questions:

I live in a 1900 sq ft, single family, contemporary farmhouse, well ventilated, quiet, sort of out in the sticks. (I'm curious as to what this will tell you)

I own a residential/commercial eco friendly cleaning business. I will begin studying to be a nurse this June.

Depending on how active I am, I typically eat about a 1500-1700 calorie per day lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet making sure I get a complete protein with every meal and supplementing with a b complex, b12 and a multivitamin.

Well, I think I have been feeling this way off and on since I was about 20. But it has gotten progressively worse since coming off the medication 8 months ago and even worse since quitting smoking weed.

I would have to say the majority of the day, unless I am just vegging out and able to just not think I am experiencing either the mental lapses or the mental disorganization. I don't know if I would describe it as racing thoughts though. I guess, more like thoughts competing with each other to be at the forefront, just a really disorganized mess. Errrrr I'm struggling here to decribe it.

I'm interested in what your ideas are. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. Thanks.

Even with precautionary measures, not everyone is well suited for any form of a vegetarian diet---especially with the presence of mental illness. Unless you consider it to be unconscionable, it might be worth considering the reintegration of meat into your diet---so that your body's heightened need for amino acids is satiated. Increasing your caloric intake might help as well, because as far as I'm aware, there is limited evidence supporting the use of vegetarianism or calorie restriction for the treatment of mental illness. Indeed, besides being ill-advised in your case, both dieting approaches are considered to be contraindicated by more than a few researchers. Without deviating from the topic of mental illness too much, I should note that there are considerable methodological flaws in a number of the positive findings supporting vegetarianism---which is enough to give a generally unbiased mind like my own considerable pause. So, again, it might be worth seriously reflecting about the link between your dieting habits and your current state of mind. If you ultimately decide to reintroduce meat, you don't have to eat copious amounts---because such a course of action would be greatly at odds with findings on the correlates of longevity---and to address some of your possible concerns, there are a number of strategies to mitigate the potentially deleterious effects of meat consumption. Before you ask me to present you with further proof---which would require a PubMed search---I have encountered a number of cases of vegetarian induced depression.

If as I suspect that you're adamant about sustaining your vegetarian lifestyle, and that any serious deviation might constitute apostasy, then it would behoove you to invest in a decent amino acid formula, and a highly bioavailable protein supplement---Sun Warrior, AOR Advanced Whey, or an egg-based protein powder. As you're undoubtedly aware, B-12 supplementation is also critical. However, I wouldn't be deterred by dosage guidelines---which I consider to be arbitrary. Indeed, since a very significant toxicity threshold would have to passed before adverse events appear, it would be safe---and advisable---to supplement 15 mg/day. Personally, I use AOR's Methylcobalamin Ultra, which contains lozenges of approximately 15 mg. As you might discover in your travels, almost everything that AOR produces has the distinction of being the best on the market, and that supplementing with much lesser brands is usually a waste of time and money.

[penisbreath]

I would concur, but before the original poster jumps to a potentially false conclusion, I would suggest that she seriously consider undergoing a neuropsychiatric examination.

what's involved in a neuropsychiatric examination? the psychiatrist i'm seeing at the moment made me undergo neurocognitive testing, which basically involved completing a series of computer-based exercises devoted to memory, executive function, etc. over the course of an hour. i supposedly scored above average in every domain, though question the sensitivity of the test, given the problems i'm having with mental fatigue

[Aimilee]

Thank you Rol82 for such a thoughtful reply. I have read many of your posts on this board and really admire your judgement and knowledge. I was glad to see your response.
Since starting this thread about a week ago, with direction from a new psychiatrist, I have begun treatment with the Zoloft once again. As it was the only SSRI (and I have tried many if not all) that alleviated the OCD symptoms, of which I have observed creeping back into my thought process recently. When the OCD is flaring it can be most debilitating, so I am taking precautions to avoid that.

If disordered thinking is confined to social situations, then a social anxiety diagnosis is more likely. But, if---as you suggest---it's more generalized, then this complaint may be symptomatic of another disorder. Until a more definitive diagnosis is made, the use of Deprenyl---which is unorthodox in most situations---would seem to be a bit premature and risky.

I have been diagnosed with social anxiety as well, though these symptoms do not occur only during social interaction. Of course, these added issues exacerbate the anxiety making both problems worse but, I also experience the "lack of thought" and disordered, cluttered thinking even when I am alone or in the company of people that I am very comfortable with.
With more research, I have decided against taking the deprenyl. I guess I was feeling a little desperate, had read alot of people's success stories with it and, was much too hasty in ordering it.

I would concur, but before the original poster jumps to a potentially false conclusion, I would suggest that she seriously consider undergoing a neuropsychiatric examination. While initially expensive, it may greatly improve her prognosis, and reduce the incidence of error. And, by sparing the patient the considerable cost of under-treatment or contraindicated treatments, her recovery will be expedited, and most importantly, her earning potential may markedly increase.

I did have a psychological and neuropsychological evaluation done in 2004. Some abnormalties were found in the neuropsych test but, were of questionable significance. On the sensory-motor integration test the performance on trial 3 using my non-dominant hand was slow for my age and inferior to trial 2. though the total time for completion of all 3 trials was normal. My tapping speed was also below average on my left on the finger ocillation test. The psychological testing revealed some of the issues that I have written about in this thread. My full scale IQ on the WAIS-III was 127, while scoring the highest on the verbal IQ test. The way that I am feeling right now, I am sure this is would no longer the case.
Do you think it might be valuable to get another evaluation just 6 years later?

Edited by Aimilee, 22 May 2010 - 08:24 PM.

[MoodyBlue]

The most effective nootropic I've ever used is Noopept which is inexpensive from http://pharmacy1010....arch_result.asp. I don't know if it is necessary to use a choline supplement at the same time. I just happened to be taking Alpha GPC for the Piracetam, Aniracetam, and Oxiracetam I* was taking at the time. Memory and presence of mind were so much better than usual. You have to take breaks from it once in a while. There info on this forum somewhere. Try Tryptopure for elevating tryptophan in the brain. PharmaGaba might help you also. Check it out on YouTube.