ephedrine

Started by , Aug 12 2004 01:07 AM

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#1

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 01:07 AM

I know a little bit about the substance from reading up on it. It's relatively safe taken at recommended doses. However I'm wondering if it does indeed affect norepinephrine reuptake.

http://pharma-help.com/ephedrine

According to sites like these "Ephedrine inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine". There are a few other sites that state this but I'm wondering if this effect is substantial or if it's just minimal.

As well it seems to raise blood pressure and is vasoconstrictive, could using something like Vinpocetine which is a vasodilator minimize such effects and mediate the increase in blood pressure.

I've never heard anyone liken ephedrine to Strattera, so that is why I am weary of replacing one with the other despite both being stated as having norepinephrine reuptake inhibiting effects.

If anyone could fill me in it would be much appreciated. I've made a similar thread at Avantlabs asking about this because they dealt alot with ephedrine.

#2 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 01:12 AM

from what I know the problem seems to be that it does not only have an action that affects the brain so people gets the jitters, but I have never tried it

#3

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 01:34 AM

Perhaps but it would seem to be superior to anything caffeine can offer. I get jitters with caffeine as well, but if ephedrine has SNRI properties I would probably favour it to caffeine. Especially since most of the dangers associated with ephedrine are as a result of physical overendurance at high doses.

If I decide to take ephedrine myself it will be in sporadic use when the need arises. First I must verify if it will be appropriate for extended periods of concentration and focus, which is why I am inquiring of it's possible SNRI properties.

#4 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 01:45 AM

never heard that "Ephedrine inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine" but that it "mimics" epinephrine (adrenaline)

this is an old text I found in my HD
Ephedrine is an adrenergic drug that works by stimulating alpha and beta
receptors thus causing the release of norepinephrine. Alpha and beta
receptors exist in the sympathetic nervous system, (fight or flight) and
stimulation causes increased heart rate, bronchodilation, and
vasoconstriction.
http://leda.lycaeum.org/

#5

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 02:23 AM

The effects should be similar to an SNRI regardless because norepinephrine release is still being stimulated, or so I would think.

#6

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 02:24 AM

"Tolerance develops to the main effects of ephedrine; however, temporary
abstinence restores sensitivity."

http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=8734

This is good news.

#7 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 03:36 AM

The effects should be similar to an SNRI regardless because norepinephrine release is still being stimulated, or so I would think.

no because you also get the peripheral (cardiac, respiratory, etc) stimulation, which is inconvenient for some purposes

#8

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 03:43 AM

They maybe inconvenient, but they are no better or worse than the jitters you get from caffeine. Caffeine also raises heart rate and is vasoconstrictive. Compared to most SNRI's that I know of, Ephedrine is more easily accessible, vastly cheaper, and shares some of the same effects as SNRI's, albeit through different mechanisms.

My other initial question was about whether taking vasodilators like Vinpocentine with Ephedrine would minimize the increase in blood pressure associated with Ephedrine.

#9 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 04:34 AM

I mean, it would be interesting to try, but if you need to concentrate, epending on your personality, it can be conter productive because you may want to move because of the physical stimulation.

There are other interesting adrenergics, like naphazoline, which is alpha one agonist. As a descongestant it constricts vessels, but some say it has a rebound effect in the frontal lobes which causes stimulation an vasodilation. I could never find a serious article about this rebound effect in the brain. It is used in eyes and nasal drops. Does not work if ingested. Some try it sublingual to avoid the sie effect of nasal constriction after repeated use.

#10 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 04:37 AM

I never tried it but I think if you do not already have HBP or are at risk and watch the dose there should not be a problem.

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 04:52 AM

I don't know if I have high blood pressure, I think I'm borderline or at risk as you say. I'm still quite young and since I intend to use this more as a study aid I don't think my dose will ever be a high one. I imagine ephedrine is used more by those who work out or want to lose weight.

#12 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 01:17 PM

You should know your BP, it does not matter if you are young
at least take your heart rate

#13

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 09:04 PM

I've talked to my doctor who has taken my BP, he's said it was a bit high and that I should avoid a lifestyle that would exasturbate the problem as I age. I think my blood pressure is 130/90 if I remember correctly (although I can't remember exactly). As for my heart rate, I believe it's near normal but also a little high, my doctor also took my heart rate and did not raise an issue about that.

This is partly why I am inquiring about vasodilators like Vinpocetine to counteract a possible increase in blood pressure from Ephedrine. Caffeine also seems to raise heart rate and blood pressure and I have taken a large quantity of caffeine through beverages and caffeine pills without serious ill effects.

#14 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 10:58 PM

come on, you won´t tell me you do not remember two numbers you were interested to know! you are in denial :-)

your doctor is right
systolic 130 diastolic 90 is a bit high, especially diastolic
I believe the current ideal is 120/80

You may want to take more frequent meassures, inlcuding out of the doc office, many people show higher BP there.

Also, maybe you are already taking supplements that rises BP like phenylalanine?.

I do not remember the way in which vinpo causes vasodilation (and can´t look up now) , must be something on the artery wall muscles... but the problem is that I do not think there is a direct relation: vasodilation ---> lower blood pressure.

BP is very complex an the kidney and the angiotensines and hormones are involved.

I mean, vinpo is not a BP drug. Propranolol is and you could try it if you want. it has side effects.

Regarding "I have taken a large quantity of caffeine through beverages and caffeine pills without serious ill effects." If caffeine rises your BP enough it IS causing long term damage. The damage from HBP it is not something you wil FEEL at the moment, but when you get arteries hardened, a stroke or brain edema. I don´t mean this will happen to you, but better be safe. The usual recommendation is to not eat excess salt, cardio exercise.

#15 noos

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 11:36 PM

... However, new guidelines target ideal blood pressure as 130/85 or less, and even lower in patients with renal disease -- with a goal blood pressure of 125/75 or ...
health.yahoo.com/health/encyclopedia/003082/0.htm

I searched because I thought I was wrong and 80 was high
anyway, 125/75 is very difficult for many people and they do not feel good that low

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 11:50 PM

Physical fitness is something I need to work on, I am also overweight (6'1" and well over 200lbs, granted no where near 300) so it wasn't such a surprise that my heart rate and BP were a bit high. I understand HBP is something that can cause long term damage but I am not willing to relegate ephedrine to the medicine cabinet just because it may increase heart rate and BP in the short term.

I've done things to improve my overall health, I've been more active and lost some weight as a result however I see it as a long term process for a healthier body. My goal in joining this board was to learn more about nootropics and substances that can enhance my cognitive functions in one way or another, however I see myself aspiring to improve my overall health as an important goal but something that will be a long term process. My interest in life extensionist goals is growing, so as a result is my motivation to improve my current fitness level.

However for the immediate future I think I can justify a trial run of Ephedrine with Vinpocetine to counteract the vasoconstrictive effects. I'll keep looking for articles relating ephedrine to possible increased concentration and focus, failing that I'll see if I experience such effects while using ephedrine granted my results will be far from scientifically valid.

#17 scottl

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 12:33 AM

Cosmos,

1. As noos says check your BP several times before accepting that you have hypertension. The best way is to buy a decent BP machine at the drug store, calibrate it against a standard (i.e. someone taking your BP the usual way with a BP cuff) and take it several times over a period of days. To be on the safe side, check it in both arms. If you do have hypertension, there are other ways to go besides typical BP drugs (I would not recommend propranolol)

2. "I am not willing to relegate ephedrine to the medicine cabinet just because it may increase heart rate and BP in the short term"

I'm short on time so I may have missed it above--Why are you planning on taking ephedrine? What benefit are you planning on that is worth even a 1% chance of damaging your kidneys?

Caffeine is not at all the same as ephedrine.

Oh and wasn't ephedrine recently banned?

Please don't misunderstand, I do not think ephedrine is a particularly dangerous substance. But it leaves many people stimulated/jittery in a bad way, there are alernatives, and in your case I fail to see the benefit to justify the risk.

Scott

#18 noos

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 12:49 AM

I mentioned propranolol in case he wanted to take something along with ephedrine as vinpo is not sure to work for this.

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 12:49 AM

I am not done assessing the possible risks and rewards of using ephedrine. However from what I know so far the usual dose of ephedrine used by those who want to lose weight or for the purposes of working out is higher than I would want to use if I were going to apply it as a study aid.

I don't think under the conditions I would be using ephedrine for, it will be particularly harmful to me. That being said I will continue to read up on it before I decide to place an order, I didn't know there was a risk of kidney damage.

I would think my kidneys and liver are in good shape considering I don't drink or abuse my body to any great extent, I suppose being overweight with slightly high blood pressure does do some damage though.

#20

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 12:54 AM

There are better alternatives to ephedrine I certainly agree, but I am only pursuing this route because it is a very economical and readily available substance. Something that I can have with me for sporadic use when needed.

#21 scottl

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 01:08 AM

Cosmos,

For studying (and I'm a medical doctor, so I can speak from experience about studying for long periods).

1. Get plenty of sleep.

2. What you eat is key. Protein with healthy fats and/or low glycemic carbohydrates will produce an optimal state of mind for studying, whereas a large plate of pasta will produce...something less then an optimal state.

FYI: good fats: fish fats (salmon, sardines, etc), olive oil, nuts. Trans fatty acids (anything partially hdrogenated, or hydrogenated) avoid. Saturated fats are probably ok in reasonable quantities, especially if you get enough good fats (another discussion for another time)

There are tables of glycemic index on the web, but as a first aproximation bread, rice, pasta and most grains are high in glycemic index (rye, barley and slow cooking but not instant oatmeal are lower inglycemic index). Sugar is obviously high on the glycemic index and will not lead to an optimal state for studying.

This kind of diet will also improve your health, and help you lose weight.

3. A supurb study aid is powerdrive:

L-Tyrosine
3,000 milligrams

Phosphatidylcholine
1,000 milligrams

DMAE
200 milligrams

Ginkgo Biloba
200 milligrams

Vitamin B6
20 milligrams

I'm not sure which ingredients are necessary (see other thread). I'm sure you can buy whatever ingredients and make it up cheaper. However I would suspect that this with caffeine would be a killer study aid and be more effective and to your liking then ephedrine. Having said all that, small doses of ephedrine (less then usually used) would be unlikely to do any harm.

#22

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 01:21 AM

The list of foods was helpful as for Powerdrive, I already have it but I have an established nootropic regiment so if for some reason I am left without it I will take my Powerdrive with me. As for sleep, it's extremely important but is not sufficient alone, in helping me study and retain information at the rate and amount I would like.

If money were not an issue for me and if Strattera were available in Canada I would get a prescription for Strattera and use it concurrently with Adrafinil, a safe stimulant, the only precaution being that if it is used daily for long periods of time one should have their liver enzymes checked every 3 months just in case.
L-Tyrosine to prevent norepinephrine depletion would also be good to take with the aforementioned.

Here is a good all-in-one powder you can make yourself from Blackstarlabs:

http://www.blackstar...products_id=230

Acetyl L Carnitine (high dose)
L Tyrosine (high dose)
Piracetam (high dose)
B Vitamin Complex
Choline Bitartrate (high dose)

If you prefer ease, they will mix all these powders for you into one powder and ship it to you. However if you prefer the more economical route, smi2le.biz will provide these substances at less cost to you.

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