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Who is Researching Cryonics right *NOW* ?


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#1 CryoBurger

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:45 AM


What is happening in cryonics research?

Where did all the studies done on dogs back in the 80's end up going?

That seems to be the last thing anyone ever did to actually try and create a process and see if it will work. Did they just give up and stop?

What new discoveries are being made? What trials and errors are underway? What tests are passing and failing? Who is doing anything whatsoever to make cryonics more of a reality?

Anyone? Anywhere? Anything?

I constantly search Google news for cryonics updates and all I ever see are Alcor legal fights with retarded family members who give them problems.

What about the technology? There are so many things that need to be worked out. Even if its just trial and error, someone could be documenting the problems, the reactions to reanimation.

So the dog was reanimated and had siezures. Who is finding out why? How to stop them?

Grants should be funded for addressing the roadblocks and doing research to get us one step closer.

Where are the updates? What's going on? Who is doing it and where are the updates being published?

Thanks.

#2 advancedatheist

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 02:35 PM

I can mention a specific thing that I've helped to fund. The de Wolfs, who show signs of becoming a cryonics power couple, have started their own lab in Portland, OR:

http://www.scribd.co...yonics-Research

#3 CryoBurger

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:12 PM

I can mention a specific thing that I've helped to fund. The de Wolfs, who show signs of becoming a cryonics power couple, have started their own lab in Portland, OR:

http://www.scribd.co...yonics-Research

True, I was aware of the DeWolf's ... but truly .... and I feel bad about this - they seem to be the only ones in the entire industry bothering to do a damn thing to make this progress.

While everyone on here is dreaming, all starry-eyed about how they will be reanimated in 60 years if they died today, they seem to forget that nobody is doing anything to make this stuff a reality.

The De Wolfs need funding, and for that there needs to be committee's and investors. Hopefully someone will take this situation seriously and start to organize something.

Nobody is getting reanimated in 60 years the way things are currently going. 600 maybe. If we're lucky.

#4 drus

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 09:05 PM

right now the only real research that can be of any consequence is better preservation technology and techniques. as for research regarding revival, it's not really something that can be researched per se at present, since a reasonably mature form of advanced molecular nanotech has to be developed first, then tested, and so forth. then at that point, research and experimentation with mol-nano-tech and cryo-revival application. i dont think this is likely to begin happening for at least another 50-70 yrs (and that's being optimistic), and then probably several more decades beyond that until they will even attemp revival. the main bulk of present day research goes into better methods of patient preservation such as vitrification, cryoprotectants, perfusion, and even the cryogenic process itself, etc... at least this is how i understand it.

#5 chrwe

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 03:23 AM

Reanimation will be tied up with our goal, the ending of ageing, because, like it or not, ending ageing won`t be achieved until we have advanced medical nanotechnology. Why? Because even if you can replace all organs and skin (which I see happening in the next 50 years), the brain will still age and you can NOT replace it in any conceivable way yet. I can see the prevention of Alzheimer happening in 20 years time or sooner (talked to bioscientists about current research) but there are sill all other causes of dementia including vascular which is very debilitating.

Therefore, I don`t think reanimation as such has to be researched a lot, cell repair has to be researched a lot. Thawing someone is easy, re-starting a heart should be comparatively easy for advanced medicine, repairing the cause of death PLUS the considerable freezing damage is not easy.

In my opinion, it is therefore vital that research is done on preserving methods at the moment, to reduce said freezing damage.

And we are not all starry eyed. Many of us think there is about 1-2% chance to be revived at all at worst and even when you think very very positive you only get about 50% chance. But guess what? If I get cremated or buried, my chance is zero.

Alcor is doing some research as far as I know, I do not know about CI. It is holding cryonics back that most everyone thinks everyone should die....

#6 jonano

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 06:23 AM

the explication of Drus is encouraging. I love to see such writings :). I think it's good to write small steps and thus creating a small plan, until the end is reached.

#7 bgwowk

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 07:12 AM

Cryonics research is a long and complicated subject with lots of history, made more awkward and complicated by the need for scientists sympathetic to cryonics to hide their interest to protect their careers and ability to collaborate with colleagues, engage in commercial contracts, and receive research grants from mainstream funding agencies. As a result, most of the research that currently feeds into the practice of cryonics is not being done under the label of cryonics, but rather labels such as cerebral resuscitation research, vitrification research, organ preservation research, or nanomedicine research, at a variety of institutions. Some of this research is funded by cryonics organizations, and sometimes performed by cryonics organizations, but the majority of research most relevant to cryonics is presently funded by other sources and institutions.

Some of the most historically important companies in cryonics research were CryoVita (Jerry Leaf's company), BioTime, and 21st Century Medicine, which where originally started by people with an interest in cryonics, but now have much broader foci. In the 1990s 21CM under Mike Darwin and Steve Harris purchased CryoVita, and extended Jerry Leaf's dog experiments to longer periods of hypothermia, and demonstrated recovery of dogs with no neurological deficit after 16 minutes of circulatory arrest at normal body temperature. The protocols and medications used to achieve this now motivate the core of Alcor's and Suspended Animation's initial cryonics stabilization protocol. This era also resulted in a remarkable study of the ultrastructural effects of high concentration glycerol cryopreservation on the canine brain

http://www.alcor.org...servation1.html

There is limited justification to do further hypothermia recovery experiments now that complete recovery after several hours of cold bloodless perfusion has been demonstrated. The reason is that these experiments were NOT intended as demonstrations of recovery from cryonic preservation, but merely development and validation of the carrier solution Alcor uses during the first few hours of a cryopreservation protocol. Recovery of whole animals after a full cryopreservation protocol is a much more difficult problem that will probably not see any progress for decades until the many problems of low-temperature preservation are first solved on a tissue and organ level by cryobiologists. Until these problems are solved, there is no point in trying to revive whole large animals from cryopreservation.

Near the turn of the century, 21CM expanded and changed from being a cerebral resuscitation research company to a cryopreservation (low temperature preservation) company. The cerebral resuscitation research group was spun off into a separate company called Critical Care Research, which has gone on to innovate and publish ideas like breathing cold fluorocarbon liquid to induce rapid post-resuscitation hypothermia, which has applications in both cryonics and mainstream medicine.

http://web.archive.o...Cool_Oxygen.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11719148

The head of 21CM research is now Dr. Gregory Fahy, who is the cryobiologist who invented the entire field of metastable vitrification, and who was the first to propose vitrification as a means of cryopreserving organs without ice damage while working at the American Red Cross almost 30 years ago. Within the past decade, working at 21CM, he succeeded in demonstrating reversible vitrification at -130 degC and long term survival of a vital mammalian organ (kidney) in a rabbit model.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2781097/

The vitrification solution used to achieve this was licensed to Alcor in 2005.

http://www.alcor.org...technology.html

Also around the turn of century, Dr. Yuri Pichugin, who had been doing contract research in the Ukraine for CI during 1990s relocated to the United States to do brain tissue cryopreservation research at UCLA in collaboration with 21CM and the Institute for Neural Cryobiology, the small cryonics-friendly granting agency started by Thomas Donaldson and continued by Ben Best. This resulted in a remarkable study showing survival of cryopreserved brain tissue using vitrification solutions developed by 21CM.

http://www.21cm.com/...o_published.pdf

Dr. Pichugin went on to become a full-time cryobiology researcher at CI, where he developed CI's vitrification solution VM-1. After his departure from CI in 2007, much of his equipment was moved to Portland, Oregon, to the cryonics research lab begun by Chana and Ashwin de Wolf where they continue research on a modest scale.

Also within the past decade, Alcor has employed two PhD scientists, one of which published an important study on the effects of warm ischemia on brain structure

http://www.ijcep.com...IJCEP707005.pdf

Alcor has also funded nanomedicine research leading to numerous publications

http://www.alcor.org...ex.html#nanomed

In parallel with pursuit of many serious commercial and scientific interests unrelated to cryonics, Critical Care Research and especially 21CM continue research projects quietly collecting data relevant to cryonics on a scale that can only be called massive (compared to other epochs and institutions). At 21CM we have a staff of 20 people, including four PhD principal investigators, one of which is a neuroscientist. Aside from the publications on our website, the last public disclosure of research interests and results to a cryonics audience was this small conference

http://www.suspendedinc.com/dvd.html

This posting is a very superficial overview, and also neglects a large amount of cryopreservation engineering R&D relevant to cryonics that has gone on at Alcor and elsewhere.
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#8 N.T.M.

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 07:59 AM

...the brain will still age and you can NOT replace it in any conceivable way yet.


"Replacing your brain becomes an insurmountable problem."

Yet introduction of stem cells have already successfully replaced brain tissue. If this were to be done periodically then we could fully compensate for the brain's attrition rate which, in principle, would enable us to eventually replace the entire brain (little bit at a time).

It seems like that insurmountable problem was just solved.

And lets not forget the concept of corporeal continuity which clearly debunks his whole premise.


^^^^ One thing I excluded here was the removal of debris (aged neurons). Now if this could be approached like beta amyloid, a vaccine may enable the immune system to do it for us. I'm not sure. I haven't read anything on it, but it seems quite plausible.

#9 chrwe

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:51 AM

I`ll second that as soon as the vaccines actually work ;)

although to be quite honest I would prefer a 30% chance of encephalitis to 100% chance of Alzheimer

#10 CryoBurger

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:58 AM

"Many of us think there is about 1-2% chance to be revived at all at worst and even when you think very very positive you only get about 50% chance. But guess what? If I get cremated or buried, my chance is zero."

True?

I guess im more starry eyed than most here then. I have a pretty high expectation of being revived, given enough time and given no interruptions to the process (preservation). I think given enough time its 100% chance of reanimation. Why do so many of you feel its only 1 to 2% chance? If anything the real risk is whether anyone will maintain us that long .... so if that issue were resolved then I think it shoots to 100%.

Edited by CryoBurger, 20 May 2010 - 05:59 AM.


#11 chrwe

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:30 AM

It`s a statisical combination of the following risks:

1. natural disaster (very low, take about 1% per year or less)
2. cryonics being outlawed
3. cryonic company you are sleeping with going bankrupt and no one taking over
4. human failure (neglect to keep you frosted adequately etc.)
5. the years that it needs to develop reanimation technology

the last factor is the most crucial. The quicker they are with reanimating us, the less likely the other factors are to hit.

#12 N.T.M.

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:10 AM

I`ll second that as soon as the vaccines actually work ;)

although to be quite honest I would prefer a 30% chance of encephalitis to 100% chance of Alzheimer



But they have been proven effective already. Several have actually. I read about them in the new afterword for Ending Aging. A small percentage of those receiving the therapy severely overreacted though. So that's why they (or at least that one) were never released.

*edit*

"Many of us think there is about 1-2% chance to be revived at all at worst and even when you think very very positive you only get about 50% chance. But guess what? If I get cremated or buried, my chance is zero."

True?

I guess im more starry eyed than most here then. I have a pretty high expectation of being revived, given enough time and given no interruptions to the process (preservation). I think given enough time its 100% chance of reanimation. Why do so many of you feel its only 1 to 2% chance? If anything the real risk is whether anyone will maintain us that long .... so if that issue were resolved then I think it shoots to 100%.


devitrification - an issue that wouldn't apply to you once you undergo freezing because of the improvements forecasted to combat this. There's already been significant improvement within just the last several years.

Edited by N.T.M., 20 May 2010 - 07:16 AM.


#13 chrwe

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:25 AM

But they have been proven effective already. Several have actually. I read about them in the new afterword for Ending Aging. A small percentage of those receiving the therapy severely overreacted though. So that's why they (or at least that one) were never released.



N.T.M. - thats why I said I`d take the low chance of encephalitis over Alzheimer, I know they worked, but that was the complication.

I am positive they will find a cure in the next 5-10 years. Now there is just vascular dementia and normal brain ageing to go.

You know what, it may actually work with the longlivety for me! As soon as there is a treatment that lets me live 100 longer, I will personally invite all of you to a very big party, yes mon.

#14 drus

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 10:30 PM

"Many of us think there is about 1-2% chance to be revived at all at worst and even when you think very very positive you only get about 50% chance. But guess what? If I get cremated or buried, my chance is zero."

True?

I guess im more starry eyed than most here then. I have a pretty high expectation of being revived, given enough time and given no interruptions to the process (preservation). I think given enough time its 100% chance of reanimation. Why do so many of you feel its only 1 to 2% chance? If anything the real risk is whether anyone will maintain us that long .... so if that issue were resolved then I think it shoots to 100%.



i agree with you, cryoburger. i personally think there is a 99% chance that it'll work (at least in theory) eventually, for patients who recieve timely and top notch cryopreservation. there are a number of factors that come into play however, but basically speaking, in general, i think it'll work. i wont however, go so far as to say that personality and memory will definitely be 100% recovered.

#15 N.T.M.

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 12:59 AM

But they have been proven effective already. Several have actually. I read about them in the new afterword for Ending Aging. A small percentage of those receiving the therapy severely overreacted though. So that's why they (or at least that one) were never released.



N.T.M. - thats why I said I`d take the low chance of encephalitis over Alzheimer, I know they worked, but that was the complication.



Oh lol right, gotcha. :-D

#16 chrwe

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 03:49 AM

[/quote]


i agree with you, cryoburger. i personally think there is a 99% chance that it'll work (at least in theory) eventually, for patients who recieve timely and top notch cryopreservation. there are a number of factors that come into play however, but basically speaking, in general, i think it'll work. i wont however, go so far as to say that personality and memory will definitely be 100% recovered.
[/quote]

Actually, that is my greatest fear about cryonics. I don`t know what is worse: To disappear into oblivion or to be woken up and have severe brain damage.

#17 bgwowk

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 05:23 AM

Actually, that is my greatest fear about cryonics. I don`t know what is worse: To disappear into oblivion or to be woken up and have severe brain damage.

You mean severe amnesia, not brain damage. The kind of comprehensive tissue repair and regeneration technologies necessary to reverse cryopreservation are not compatible with leaving "brain damage" as that term is understood today.

#18 chrwe

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:47 AM

severe amnesia, to me, equals a loss of myself

our memories are an integral part of who we are - or we would not need to fight dementia

however, if I didnt believe that cryonics will leave me better off than just having a clone of myself (which would be easy and could be achieved even today), I would not have signed up

If they can reanimate me and repair my brain so it is not damaged, amnesia might in time be reversible. There is so much about the brain that we do not understand and the tendency to "revert" or "repair" itself to emulate the "original" mind is one of them - but undeniably, the brain does just that.

Still, it`s kind of a nightmarish scenario, you wake up, have no idea who you are and why you are there

#19 CryoBurger

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:57 AM

See, now this is an intelligent discussion. Thanks to everyone for not venturing off into la la land with speculation and crazy theories :-D (No offense to those of you who do that) - but the memory issue you last two guys are raising is important. Are any of you doing what I am doing? Documenting your life? Keeping a journal? Even in written form? How about videos periodically? Not necssarily sitting down and talking to yourself (or yes - maybe even that), but just filming your world, and your friends, and your family, and where you live ?

I've even got this stupid "trigger phrase" where I communicate with myself in the future. Important thoughts, or things i would want to convey to myself. I've never told anyone this before because its my version of "going into la la land" ... but my trigger phrase is intended to be like a search term. Anywhere its used, I am about to say something to the future me. The idea being like a Ctrl+F on a page full of text. Just search for that phrase, and whatever comes next is a message to myself after reanimation. Its a little illogical, but I find myself doing it often when i am out partying and walking home intoxicated :-D and feeling anxiety or hope about the process - or just want to update myself on whats going on - I always picture myself being able to watch it like a movie in the future, seeing what i see through my eyes at that moment and hearing my voice talking. Yep - definitely La La Land kind of thinking. Sorry.

But do a lot of you all document your lives? I have been keeping a journal and also look for excuses to video tape things. I got one of those HD Video cameras so its in about as perfect quality as you can get. And I've got one of those "My Book" external hard drives ... huge ... 200 GIG .... its the size of a deck of cards basically. Figure that will go in my "box of stuff" when I am preserved. And hopefully still be there when I come back ... for review. I sure hope they have therapists and psychologists to sit down with us and break us in when we reanimate. Its going to be quite a shocking experience. Although probably not as shocking and horrific as being born as a baby, screaming bloody murder, having fluids forceably sucked out of your lungs, hanging upside down, etc... :-D

-CB-

#20 N.T.M.

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 09:42 AM

I don't want to bank on the prospect of brain damage. My mind is everything I am. Should I lose that (have it reset), I may default to something else. I doubt any video, etc. could guide me back.

#21 chrwe

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 10:21 AM

Well, N.T.M., this is why I really want SENS to succeed, because to be honest, cryonics is more like a last desperate bid in my eyes - it may succeed, but there are a lot of uncertainties in the equation

even more desperate is the wish that an afterlife exists despite all rational thought

Whereas if SENS works out and Kurtzweil is right, I dont have to find out if it works :-D, I can just stay alive

so lets work, work, work

#22 bgwowk

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 04:21 PM

Still, it`s kind of a nightmarish scenario, you wake up, have no idea who you are and why you are there

You've been there before. We all have. Childhood doesn't have to be a bad thing if there are people who care about you. Nor does childhood require starting as a physical infant.

Revival scenarios require more than just technology. In fact, even if you had all your memories, revival after centuries would still be childhood in terms of new knowledge that would have to be acquired, and dependence on others for a long time. The need for institutions and infrastructure to address that would have to be part of any well-considered revival system.

I think personal records are very valuable, and would have meaning for people who lost memories. However I don't believe they would restore "the original person" any more than studying genealogy or old family photos makes us our ancestors.

#23 CryoBurger

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:18 PM

I doubt any video, etc. could guide me back.

It wouldn't be used for guiding you back. It would be used to educate you. Viewing your own personality and learning about yourself - especially in video form - can become a big part of who you are. In fact if you took enough time now to truly babbly endlessly about your entire life story - everything you could possibly remember, and get it down onto video or audio, it would be something the future you would very much want to hear. Believe me - if youre lacking in memory - items like this would be the only thing you really give a damn about at that point. Heh ... if you had amnesia ... the old you would be gone anyways . .... and its odd ... because its really no big deal .... amnesia is basically death if you think about it. Even in living people. They've died. And they're someone new. Odd concept.

Concsciousness and "self" are a total illusion. Im learning that more and more.

#24 chrwe

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 05:30 AM

Concsciousness and "self" are a total illusion. Im learning that more and more.


They are not an illusion. Only not static. That is a very important difference :-D

hm, you convinced me, I am going to make a video etc

who knows, we all just might need things to "trigger" memories (no one knows 100% yet how memory works)

#25 N.T.M.

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:40 AM

Well, N.T.M., this is why I really want SENS to succeed, because to be honest, cryonics is more like a last desperate bid in my eyes - it may succeed, but there are a lot of uncertainties in the equation

even more desperate is the wish that an afterlife exists despite all rational thought

Whereas if SENS works out and Kurtzweil is right, I dont have to find out if it works :-D, I can just stay alive

so lets work, work, work



Ha ha, yeah man. I agree. :-D

#26 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:41 PM

Even if SENS, Mprize & Kurzweil's predictions of tech growth all work and aging is ended, one can still be hit by a car or have some sort of accidental death, which is why it makes sense to be signed up for cryonics now.

#27 N.T.M.

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 08:01 AM

Even if SENS, Mprize & Kurzweil's predictions of tech growth all work and aging is ended, one can still be hit by a car or have some sort of accidental death, which is why it makes sense to be signed up for cryonics now.


Valid point. Postponing it until a sense of "natural" impending death occurs may cut yourself short.

Good to keep in mind.

#28 chrwe

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:50 AM

Well, I`m signed up (see above about the only game in town), but I would still say it needs a lot of research - especially the reanimation part doesnt seem to be very much in demand with researchers.

So...sign up. By all means. It`s the only chance. But still, work work work for SENS because it is so much better if it succeeds than dying first (and have all this yet-untreatable damage and the insecurity if your mind can be kept)

WORK :) - we need it to succeed within 40 years or so.

#29 bgwowk

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 07:31 PM

Well, I`m signed up (see above about the only game in town), but I would still say it needs a lot of research - especially the reanimation part doesnt seem to be very much in demand with researchers.

You can't reanimate an animal until you can reanimate its vital organ organs, or at least the brain.




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