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Libertarian Rand Paul


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#31 AdamSummerfield

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 06:26 PM

I'm moderately libertarian but I'm not a social conservative like Paul.
I'm a pacifist, social liberal and very multicultural.


Good, so you're against taxation.


Not completely. Taxes are needed to operate a police force, emergency services, sanitation and so forth effectively.


So then what is the libertarian part of you about? The services you enumerate are enough to make the political body that collects those taxes a significant player.


The only other services I advocate collective provision for are public education facilities (schools and libraries) and R&D such as the U.S.A.'s DARPA and NASA. This all would probably amount to a state spending of about 15%, while in the country I live in it is something like 34%. Moderately libertarian is how I would describe that.

Social liberalism ( free use of drugs, same sex marriage etc etc ) is a goal for people who would describe themselves as socialists as well, I guess also respect for Non Agression Principle is not the same as active pacifism. Don't be tempted by the Dark Side, Adam :)


Re-read my statement.

I'm moderately libertarian but I'm not a social conservative like Paul.
I'm a pacifist, social liberal and very multicultural.


Edit: When I mentioned "emergency services" I more specifically mean "rescue services". Mountain, caving and sea rescue for example.

Edited by AdamSummerfield, 27 May 2010 - 06:32 PM.


#32 bobdrake12

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 01:51 PM


Edited by bobdrake12, 28 May 2010 - 02:03 PM.


#33 bobdrake12

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 03:42 AM

Trailer for MSBC's Chris Matthew's Documentary on the Rise of the New Right:



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#34 Alex Libman

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:41 AM

It's amazing how the most inarticulate libertarians always get the most political support and media coverage...

Any normal Anarcho-Capitalist would answer the question about the "civil rights" legislation with a moving speech on how a civilized society must find better ways of dealing with things like racism without utilizing government force, which is a dangerous weapon that always backfires and has unintended consequences. Society needs to advance through understanding and healing, not institutionalized violence and resentment!


["Stone Cold Steve Austin is Mr McMahon's doctor" video]


LOL, yeah, that's a good example of what will happen in a socialized medicine system if a patient asks "you've taken $1,000,000 from me in taxes, and now I can't afford a life-saving procedure that would cost $10,000 in the free market, why wouldn't you cover me".


Not completely. Taxes are needed to operate a police force, emergency services, sanitation and so forth effectively.

The only other services I advocate collective provision for are public education facilities (schools and libraries) and R&D such as the U.S.A.'s DARPA and NASA.


Why must those things be operated by a violent monopoly?

Edited by Alex Libman, 30 May 2010 - 11:51 AM.


#35 chris w

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 04:47 PM

It's amazing how the most inarticulate libertarians always get the most political support and media coverage...

Any normal Anarcho-Capitalist would answer the question about the "civil rights" legislation with a moving speech on how a civilized society must find better ways of dealing with things like racism without utilizing government force, which is a dangerous weapon that always backfires and has unintended consequences. Society needs to advance through understanding and healing, not institutionalized violence and resentment!


Ha, now you sound like a certain fictional character who supposedly rised up from his grave after three days.
Not that I don't agree in principle, it's just that politically this is an obscenly daydreamy statement. You're sure your not a commie afterall, Alex :|< ?

Topeka Board of Education vs Brown

If it was left to go on its own through natural "understanding and healing", it would be like governor Wallace said in 1963 during the infamous Stand in the Schoolhouse Door, blocking the entrance of black students - "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" .

To understand each other we must have a frequent and fruitfull contact first, and people who are racist don't feel like they should, and strive not to, exactly because they think they already do "understand" what the other races are about and need not know anything more. I don't think laisezz faire can do much good about it. If racism isn't economically harmfull to the racist, then there is no single reason why it would be eradicated.

In Europe regulations like death penalty and anti - homosexual laws were withdrawn not because people demanded it, but because a few folks were in charge that happened to be wiser than their contemporary societies and decided that these laws were a disgrace. Portugal was the first country in the world to get rid of death penalty ( 1867 ), because Freemasons were running it at that time and not because the Portuguese were so progressive. Today in Poland if it was up to the people to decide on that as surveys indicate, we would bring the capital punishment back. That shows how understanding most people may be when it comes to crucial moral matters.

Like MLK ( yeah, I know, "major league asshole" ) said once about the moderate liberal being Negro's greatest enemy and not the open racist, because the liberal still and still tries to convince the Negro that "the time is not yet right ". If injustice is done with the support of majority, it's utterly immoral to wait with amends for the whole society to finally wake and catch up with the times, after the harm has already been done manifold.

Edited by chris w, 30 May 2010 - 05:12 PM.


#36 Alex Libman

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 07:14 PM

Ha, now you sound like a certain fictional character who supposedly rised up from his grave after three days.


Yeah, all us Anarcho-Capitalist Jews sound like that. :|<


Not that I don't agree in principle, it's just that politically this is an obscenly daydreamy statement. You're sure your not a commie afterall, Alex :-D ?


No. I have a brain.



If it was left to go on its own through natural "understanding and healing", it would be like governor Wallace said in 1963 during the infamous Stand in the Schoolhouse Door, blocking the entrance of black students - "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever".


There can be no institutionalized slavery or segregation without the state. NAP violators forfeit their own Rights and will soon be dealt with if they don't cease their aggression and make amends, and businesses that practice segregation / racial discrimination would be ostracized by a growing fraction of the "white" society as well - not just customers but other businesses. (And the "white" population world-wide isn't that large, and soon to drop below 10%.) At worst you would end up with a few self-imposed ghettos of racists all doing business with each other, but those ghettos will be backward and eventually shrink into insignificance.


To understand each other we must have a frequent and fruitfull contact first, and people who are racist don't feel like they should, and strive not to, exactly because they think they already do "understand" what the other races are about and need not know anything more. I don't think laisezz faire can do much good about it. If racism isn't economically harmfull to the racist, then there is no single reason why it would be eradicated.


"Frequent and fruitful contact" doesn't come from government force, it comes from economic integration - racism just isn't good for business. Having one factory for "black" employees and another factory for "white" employees is horrendously inefficient - the only reason why that would ever happen is government-imposed segregation law. A culture that that uses ostracism, consumer activism, and other non-violent methods would have done a better job dealing with racism, especially when it comes to international business. And then you have cultural expression (ex. literature, media, show business), which probably has done more to advance cultural understanding than any other institution, from Uncle Tom's Cabin to The Boondocks. You poll some "white" racists (if you can find them) and you'll find that all of their reasons for hating "black" people are blowback from government force: welfare this, affirmative action that, etc.


In Europe regulations like death penalty and anti - homosexual laws were withdrawn not because people demanded it, but because a few folks were in charge that happened to be wiser than their contemporary societies and decided that these laws were a disgrace. Portugal was the first country in the world to get rid of death penalty ( 1867 ), because Freemasons were running it at that time and not because the Portuguese were so progressive. Today in Poland if it was up to the people to decide on that as surveys indicate, we would bring the capital punishment back. That shows how understanding most people may be when it comes to crucial moral matters.


That's an excellent argument against democracy, but it's not an argument against free market capitalism. The former uses propaganda and force to escape objective recognition of economic reality, the latter is a system where individual actions have individual consequences. In a democracy if the majority of the public can be fooled into believing that 2 + 2 == 5 then the demagogue politicians will find it to their benefit to enforce that, teach it in public school, and throw everyone who thinks different (and thereby challenges their power base) into prison. With Anarcho-Capitalism if 1% is right and 99% are wrong, then 1% will profit and 99% will lose or miss out until they learn from their mistakes.

A society with a restitution-based justice system will have a competitive advantage over a society with a punishment-based system (including the death penalty, which in USA always costs millions to carry out due to the multi-year appeal process, and mistakes are nonetheless made). A society that has anti-homosexual laws will have all people who disagree with those laws move to a freer society - so long Leonardo da Vinci and Alan Turing. See how this works?


Like MLK ( yeah, I know, "major league asshole" ) said once about the moderate liberal being Negro's greatest enemy and not the open racist, because the liberal still and still tries to convince the Negro that "the time is not yet right ". If injustice is done with the support of majority, it's utterly immoral to wait with amends for the whole society to finally wake and catch up with the times, after the harm has already been done manifold.


The "time is not yet right" mentality has nothing to do with free market capitalism, which wouldn't have allowed slavery and racism to begin with, or would have ended it as soon as it was instituted by ending governmental recognition of slaves as property, government aid in capturing run-away slaves (ending that was all it took to end slavery in some South American countries), ending law monopoly's support of segregation, etc.

Edited by Alex Libman, 30 May 2010 - 07:17 PM.


#37 Alex Libman

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 01:05 AM

HEADLINE: Polls Show Paul Still Leads in Kentucky


I think he may be scripted to win, otherwise the media would have destroyed him like that before the primary. The senate needs a foot-in-mouth liberpaleoconservativetarian Judas goat to legitimize the political process - if people stop voting they might start thinking about attaining real freedom, we can't have that... :|<

#38 chris w

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 03:17 AM

Here Libman, I have shit loads for ya

Not that I don't agree in principle, it's just that politically this is an obscenly daydreamy statement. You're sure your not a commie afterall, Alex :|< ?


No. I have a brain.


Oh, but it's perfectly plausible to have a high quality analytic brain and be a die hard Red - John Desmond Bernal, J.B.S. Haldane.

There can be no institutionalized slavery or segregation without the state.


Sure, without the state there won't be a law that declares slave ownership legal ( so it won't be "institutionalized") but slavery doesn't need state's authority to back itself, all it needs is a sufficient economic incentive and guns - hmm, this reminds me of a certain utopian project that I know of :-D, just without the Rights that are supposed to be respected when the state isn't here anymore.
Sole social tradition that always has an ammount of potential violence backing it is enough to make a society remain discriminatory, not necesarily the state, but the state, when it is present, can work against that tradition using law if it is run by the right men. Indians happened to be slave owners as well without any concept of institutionalizing it.


businesses that practice segregation / racial discrimination would be ostracized by a growing fraction of the "white" society as well - not just customers but other businesses.


Yes, today maybe, when racism is seen by majority of Westerners as at least shamefull ( and that thanks not to free market but to people like MLK for ex. ), so it poses a possible threat to the company's reputation. But for most time in reality there is no sufficient pressure on shareholders to go in the direction of ostracism. The cases of Sullivan Laws and disinvestments in apartheid South Africa show that the private enterpreneur is the last to join the boycott ( because why would he deliberately stop the cash flow if he isn't yet pushed to the wall ? ), he simply tags along if he is forced by the public opinion or by the government itself and the results are also mixed at best. Rothbard argued against such actions in the name of black workers' economic wellbeing. So if there is an excuse not to boycott ( because that would hurt those that it's suppose to help ) then what is left to do? Keep making money with the racists hoping they will one day stop being racist on their own.

At worst you would end up with a few self-imposed ghettos of racists all doing business with each other, but those ghettos will be backward and eventually shrink into insignificance.


Again, in a world where the majority drifts away from racist views and that is not some predetermined, unavoidable course of things. Actually the period of rapid industrial and trading growth on the brake of XIX and XX century was accompanied by the triumphant march of „scientific racism”, very in synch with social darwinist tendencies of that time. Imagine if Germans won the war, Holocaust remained a secret, and The Third Reich became a country like any other, just with racist albeit non - genocidal regulations, spreading through most Europe and the steppes of Russia.This country would be a significant economic player in the world, without the need to deal in bussiness with any "non - Aryans" if they streched their racial classifications to embrace all Whites as "Aryan". Their economy could very well grow, despite and in parallell to the evident social backwardness of their worldview.

And then you have cultural expression (ex. literature, media, show business), which probably has done more to advance cultural understanding than any other institution, from Uncle Tom's Cabin to The Boondocks.


Because them KKK are all about reading Toni Morrison and watching Bill Cosby, right ? It depends who gets with the book to the young mind first - the liberal or someone with Turner Diaries in hand. Children of racists parents who live in a racist community and are being homeschooled possess an exactly zero chance of having their beliefs questioned, and when they have grown up it's too late, like racial version of the Matrix. If they went to a mixed school the chance would be a bit bigger of confronting what they were taught with reality and getting influenced by the literature that could save their minds from hate.

You poll some "white" racists (if you can find them) and you'll find that all of their reasons for hating "black" people are blowback from government force: welfare this, affirmative action that, etc.


Ahh, if it were so simple - destroy the welfare state and with it will die the idiots.
Again, racism was doing very fine before anyone dreamed about welfare and the like. I seriously doubt that most white racists would cease to be racist if pro - minority government actions stopped. To them this is just a "civilized" excuse for hate that has a psychologically deeper, not unoften religion- like or religious per se grounding, LDS did not allow Blacks into priesthood untill the 70's. In my country there is a certain sociological phenomenon called "Jew - less antisemitism'', so this often has nothing to do with real, economic situation that the state could be blamed for.

Edited by chris w, 31 May 2010 - 03:38 AM.


#39 chris w

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 03:18 AM

In Europe regulations like death penalty and anti - homosexual laws were withdrawn not because people demanded it, but because a few folks were in charge that happened to be wiser than their contemporary societies and decided that these laws were a disgrace. Portugal was the first country in the world to get rid of death penalty ( 1867 ), because Freemasons were running it at that time and not because the Portuguese were so progressive. Today in Poland if it was up to the people to decide on that as surveys indicate, we would bring the capital punishment back. That shows how understanding most people may be when it comes to crucial moral matters.


That's an excellent argument against democracy, but it's not an argument against free market capitalism.


No, it is an excellent argument against Roussean "totalitarian" democracy where the majority can vote that "today we hang people with uneven ears" but is an argument for liberal democracy that has constitutional regulations which cannot be taken back by any act of voting, like antidiscriminatory articles.


The former uses propaganda and force to escape objective recognition of economic reality,
the latter is a system where individual actions have individual consequences.



In, respectively, libertarian nightmare - land and libertarian fantasy - land.

In a democracy if the majority of the public can be fooled into believing that 2 + 2 == 5 then the demagogue politicians will find it to their benefit to enforce that, teach it in public school, and throw everyone who thinks different (and thereby challenges their power base) into prison. With Anarcho-Capitalism if 1% is right and 99% are wrong, then 1% will profit and 99% will lose or miss out until they learn from their mistakes.


Racism doesn't fall into such objective categories as a science experiment. It is different when one is taught either that "2+2 = 5" or "Blacks are inferior to Whites". The former makes any serious technical progress virtualy impossible, the latter not, which the science of Third Reich ( few steps from getting the nuke first, not to mention rocketry) is a prove of. If, in a hipotetical world there was an economic advantage to racism ( higher birth rates come to mind ) then it would be a reasonable trait to have and nurture in free market terms, but it wouldn't change its moral qualification by a tiny bit. The guy who opened fire in Holocaust Museum in Washington the last year had IQ of Mensa level, so I guess he would be well in a technocratic, science driven An Cap society ( if he was lucky that they were all White of course ).

A society that has anti-homosexual laws will have all people who disagree with those laws move to a freer society - so long Leonardo da Vinci and Alan Turing. See how this works?


This rests on the assumption that there always is a freer society to move to. Turing could run to France for example, but Leonardo didn't have much choice if he got into trouble because of being a homosexual – if not Italy, then where else would he go ? Amsterdam wasn't yet the option :|< !!. JLL sugested that it should be allowed for a racist to for example not sell his house to a black person and this brings us to the hipotetical problem of a Black family living in, let's say Elohim City. For the sake of argument let's suppose they were there before the Christian Identiters. Soon their life becomes unbereable, not thanks to deliberate use of force by the extremists ( so no violation of NAP here ), but because simply being outnumbered and unable to get service from the White plummer or mechanic or being served in a restaurant. They will of course get the hell out of there, but there is an obvious ethical horror of such situation. If they had antidiscriminatory laws to turn to, they would have a tool to fight with.

Like MLK ( yeah, I know, "major league asshole" ) said once about the moderate liberal being Negro's greatest enemy and not the open racist, because the liberal still and still tries to convince the Negro that "the time is not yet right ". If injustice is done with the support of majority, it's utterly immoral to wait with amends for the whole society to finally wake and catch up with the times, after the harm has already been done manifold.


The "time is not yet right" mentality has nothing to do with free market capitalism, which wouldn't have allowed slavery and racism to begin with

Again, XIX / XX century and the hay days of laissez faire economy indicate differently, the case of Henry Ford shows that one can be most succesfull capitalistic entrepreneur and a fervent racist at the same time and good pals with Hitler. Unless of course we are talking about the "really real" free market capitalism dreamed of by An Caps that will take place somewhere in XXI century, when racism will be a thing of the past but unfortunately ( to the An Caps ) thanks to events of the previous century that involved a lot of positive government and international action in for example the sphere of public education.

Edited by chris w, 31 May 2010 - 03:39 AM.


#40 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 04:37 AM

Chris, one point that probably needs to be made is that every form of prejudice is a result of status seeking behavior. X dislikes, fears, and separates themselves from Y because it feeds their sense of social pecking order.

I just finished Poverty and Progress, and finally figured out the primary fallacy in all of Alex's beliefs. It does not address human status seeking behavior, which is behind nearly all of the abuses that beset an unregulated free market. Humans co-operate to meet needs, and the market does naturally seek to meet those needs. If supply and demand were the sole factor involved, then the theories of Randianism could possibly work as they claim they will.

But, because status seeking is an innate human trait, it cannot succeed in doing anything but maximizing the abuses brought about by status seeking. It assumes all actors in the market are of equal social status, and that all actors will retain equal status, which cannot occur. Primitive pack behavior will always create social differences, leading to high status actors dominating the market, and inevitably destabilizing the market in their favor to maximize the benefits to their personal status. If government did not possess a monopoly on violence, some other actor in the market will monopolize it, reestablishing a "Government". Government is a natural result of social pecking order, and will ALWAYS be created by those at the top of it in some form or other.

And this is the basis behind Alex's beliefs, and behind all conspiracy theories. As a member of a social status lower than that of the top, he has developed the belief that he is only of his social status because he is being prevented from becoming his "natural" social status among the elites. Thus his belief that if the world, market, etc only changed to function as he believes it should, that he would no long be forced to be a member of a lower status class, and would naturally become an Alpha Elite. Thus all those who suffer do not count, because they are obviously of a lower social status then his, and thus have no meaning to him.

This also explains the otherwise inexplicable behavior of the Tea Party. As they all presume that they will eventually become "Alphas" they defend the social status of those they assume they will eventually become, and since they fear that a loss of "status" of the elites will result in the loss of their own current status and the loss of the "rights" they seek to acquire once they have finally become elites themselves, despite the fact that they are clearly acting against their own best interests, they cannot accept this reality. They are locked into their own perceptions of the pecking order. Threats to the leaders of the pecking order are interpreted as attacks against themselves as members of that pecking order.

It also explains why Obama has resulted in such outrage among them, even those who are not "racist" still perceive blacks as belonging to a lower status then themselves, and his elevation to the "head" of "All pecking orders" thus violates their sense of pack order.

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 31 May 2010 - 05:06 AM.


#41 JLL

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 11:55 AM

If government did not possess a monopoly on violence, some other actor in the market will monopolize it, reestablishing a "Government". Government is a natural result of social pecking order, and will ALWAYS be created by those at the top of it in some form or other.


If you are so sure, why won't you let those who want it try it? Why do you want to forcefully keep them within *your* government?

#42 bobdrake12

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 01:23 PM

http://blogs.wsj.com...gains-in-calif/

Poll Shows Paul Still Leads in Kentucky

May 30, 2010, 11:53 AM ET.Poll Shows Paul Still Leads in Kentucky

In Kentucky’s Senate race, a Courier-Journal and WHAS11 Bluegrass Poll shows Paul, a first-time candidate and son of Texas Rep. Ron Paul, with a modest lead over Democratic Attorney General Jack Conway a week after his remarks raising questions about part of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The GOP Senate candidate holds a six-point lead, 51% to 45%, in the race to replace retiring Sen. Jim Bunning.


Edited by bobdrake12, 31 May 2010 - 01:24 PM.


#43 Alex Libman

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 02:36 PM

Oh, but it's perfectly plausible to have a high quality analytic brain and be a die hard Red - John Desmond Bernal, J.B.S. Haldane.


Being a communist was a bit more excusable the farther back in history you go, and also a bit more excusable for people whose intellectual accomplishments were unrelated to philosophy and economics. A great mathematician can be a religious nut, a great philosopher cannot be. For a person of my time and my predisposition for curiosity in all fields of knowledge to be a communist would indeed signify a cognitive disorder of some sort.


Sure, without the state there won't be a law that declares slave ownership legal ( so it won't be "institutionalized") but slavery doesn't need state's authority to back itself, all it needs is a sufficient economic incentive and guns - hmm, this reminds me of a certain utopian project that I know of :|<, just without the Rights that are supposed to be respected when the state isn't here anymore.


The Non-Aggression Principle is self-sustaining in a sufficiently advanced society because the vast majority of people (who control an even greater majority of wealth) benefit from NAP and are thus willing to defend it. The only people willing to defend the economically dysfunctional institution of slavery are a few backward plantation owners. Slavery might have been economically beneficial prior to the industrial revolution (see also my theory on evolutionary emergence of Rights), but after that it remained profitable only in a handful of agrarian pockets and held in place only through government force.


Sole social tradition that always has an ammount of potential violence backing it is enough to make a society remain discriminatory, not necesarily the state, but the state, when it is present, can work against that tradition using law if it is run by the right men. Indians happened to be slave owners as well without any concept of institutionalizing it.


If it violates NAP then it is a state - whether it waves a flag or simply puts an arrow in your back doesn't change its fundamental nature.


Yes, today maybe, when racism is seen by majority of Westerners as at least shamefull ( and that thanks not to free market but to people like MLK for ex. ), so it poses a possible threat to the company's reputation.


We are not talking about building a time machine and going back a few thousand years to fight slavery while it was still profitable - and, frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to, because many of my Jewish or Slavic ancestors (the etymological source of the word "slave") have been slaves at some point in history, and without the institution of slavery they wouldn't have been taken alive but killed instead. Slavery becomes unbearably shameful as soon as it stops being economically beneficial, which is when the relative value of mindless labor decreases due to agricultural innovation or industrialization. Racism is always shameful, and it is always economically destructive to prejudge individuals by the accident of birth rather than individual merit. As society advances, economic necessity makes all "rational economic actors" equal in their negative Rights (NAP), and non-violent racism is simply ostracized out of relevance.


But for most time in reality there is no sufficient pressure on shareholders to go in the direction of ostracism. The cases of Sullivan Laws and disinvestments in apartheid South Africa show that the private enterpreneur is the last to join the boycott ( because why would he deliberately stop the cash flow if he isn't yet pushed to the wall ? ), he simply tags along if he is forced by the public opinion or by the government itself and the results are also mixed at best. Rothbard argued against such actions in the name of black workers' economic wellbeing. So if there is an excuse not to boycott ( because that would hurt those that it's suppose to help ) then what is left to do? Keep making money with the racists hoping they will one day stop being racist on their own.


South Africa would have been a very different place without government force. The "whites" would have still dominated economically, on the basis of the technological and other advantages they were able to bring with them from Europe, and they would still be able to buy up large amounts of land and other resources and hire "black" labor at "sweatshop" prices, but they would not be able to institutionalize those class differences. A "black" entrepreneur who preforms better than his "white" competitors would become wealthier than they are, and he would have the added competitive advantage of consumer bias on his side if the majority of consumers for his products / services were not "white". Social mobility would also be higher due to absence of legal monopolies (ex. diamonds), patents, land ownership restrictions, and other "laws" that perpetuated the racial inequality. There would still be private institutions (ex. neighborhood associations, schools, businesses) catering to a specific "race", but there would be mixed-race institutions as well, with the latter gradually gaining a competitive advantage as social attitudes begin to change. Most importantly, young men like Nelson Mandela would turn to something much better than Marxism and violence in their struggle to attain economic advancement for themselves and their communities.

I agree with Rothbard that boycotting a country is counterproductive of helping its people, but that is the tragedy of statism - the government terrorists always use civilians as human shields. It's like Churchill's decision not to bomb the Nazi death camps - there are no good answers to this. The mistakes that have led up to the Nazi death camps were made in years prior, especially when other countries closed their borders to the refugees (ex) - all governments prop up each-other, and if you can create a gap and keep it open then all governments will eventually fall. Imagine what would happen if a country in Africa achieved Anarcho-Capitalism, which means not just the absence of government but a culture where NAP is almost-universally recognized, its violators are routinely brought to justice, and other governments are unable to invade because their public opinion wouldn't allow it, and because invading a country of well-armed and freedom-loving individuals is a lot more difficult than simply conquering an existing government. There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant or a refugee to be turned away from an Anarcho-Capitalist society: if you can pay your way or otherwise attain (ex. private charity) a place to live then you have the Right to stay. Such a country would not only accept all of Hitler's refugees (thereby also diffusing the future situation in Palestine), but it would compete with South Africa for regional economic leadership, sucking in its brains and capital, no matter their "color", until South Africa would be forced to reform!


Again, in a world where the majority drifts away from racist views and that is not some predetermined, unavoidable course of things. Actually the period of rapid industrial and trading growth on the brake of XIX and XX century was accompanied by the triumphant march of „scientific racism”, very in synch with social darwinist tendencies of that time.


In my mind it is the defenders of anti-racism laws that sound the most racist: "black people are inferior and therefore compassionate Mommy Government has to protect them from reality". When the pro-"affirmative action" socialists mention things like "scientific racism" it's almost like they're afraid that those theories are on some level true! I am very confident that they are not. In my own personal experience I've worked with a number of "black" people very closely, and I was very impressed with their competence and work ethic, which with some individuals was much superior to my own. I also have studied cultural factors that influence an ethnic group's performance (especially from the point of view of my own Ashkenazi ancestors), and I firmly believe that there are absolutely no relevant genetic factors that make one "race" or "ethnicity" different from the next - it's all about culture, and by that I don't mean the tribal culture of one's ancestors but the cultural patterns that exist in society today. Things like the "affirmative action" laws have done a lot more harm than good, and they have done much to keep the "black culture" of America relatively dysfunctional, dependent, and self-destructive. Freedom and achievement comes from individualism and self-reliance, not collective entitlement and handouts made possible through government force!

Industrialization and (relative) capitalism are what ended slavery, which has been practiced from the dawn of the agricultural revolution but failed to scale to the industrial age. The use of race-differentiated slavery was the last desperate attempt to preserve this vile institution, but it was only made possible by the technological differences between the European and African cultures of the time, with cultural misunderstandings being very difficult to maintain when human beings work together. Southern slave-owners tried very hard to keep their slaves in ignorance, but they couldn't escape the fact that there were free individuals of African descent who were well educated and articulate and no different culturally from a "white" "gentleman" of that era. It took government-imposed borders, laws prohibiting education of slaves, and other restrictions to maintain the illusion of "half-ape Negroes" for as long as it lasted. Obvious lies like "scientific racism", much like the "global warming" hysteria of the present day, cannot stand one minute of objective scientific scrutiny! Those lies are only made possible by the cause of science being hijacked by government-controlled academic monopolies, which are functionally biased to produce "findings" that benefit the state!


Imagine if Germans won the war, Holocaust remained a secret, and The Third Reich became a country like any other, just with racist albeit non - genocidal regulations, spreading through most Europe and the steppes of Russia.This country would be a significant economic player in the world, without the need to deal in bussiness with any "non - Aryans" if they streched their racial classifications to embrace all Whites as "Aryan". Their economy could very well grow, despite and in parallell to the evident social backwardness of their worldview.


Once again, study history objectively. Germans saw WW1+WW2 as a desperate defensive struggle against the neighboring empires that were trying to destroy Germany - they would never accept Hitler if they saw history as you see it. Nazi racism was a pragmatic attribute not much different than the war propoganda and concentration camps in America. Racism has cost Germany dearly in their loss of millions of brilliant minds like Einstein, and the German scientists they did have were a result of cultural momentum from a less oppressive society of the past. I've been doing a lot of thinking about the contrast between Ayn Rand's vision of totalitarian dystopia as backward (ex. Anthem) and the more competent dystopia like that envisioned by Orwell, and I'm coming ever-closer to the conclusion that only cultural momentum and foreign aid have kept places like the Soviet Union afloat for so long. If some remnant of Nazi Germany was around today, it wouldn't be much different from North Korea. And, once again - hellholes like North Korea or a Nazi remnant are only possible because other governments would prop them up, otherwise I'd be flying over North Korea right now and dropping leaflets (or iPads) calling for resistance!


Because them KKK are all about reading Toni Morrison and watching Bill Cosby, right? It depends who gets with the book to the young mind first - the liberal or someone with Turner Diaries in hand. Children of racists parents who live in a racist community and are being homeschooled possess an exactly zero chance of having their beliefs questioned, and when they have grown up it's too late, like racial version of the Matrix. If they went to a mixed school the chance would be a bit bigger of confronting what they were taught with reality and getting influenced by the literature that could save their minds from hate.


I'm sure some fraction of KKK members have come across Bill Cosby while flipping through the channels and couldn't help but reevaluate their opinions. You must also remember that the KKK was a shock reaction to the Federally imposed anti-Slavery laws and other political changes - things went a lot smoother in the countries where the government simply stopped supporting slavery, and the former slaves could bargain for compensation knowing the plantation owners couldn't keep them by force, and work their way up from there.

People do have a Right to be racist and to home-school their children, but those children do have the Natural Right to Emancipation, and of course they can reevaluate their parents' views after they are emancipated by default (ex. age 18), as I have reevaluated the values of the cultures that I have been born into quite completely. Being born into a crummy culture and then have to waste your 20s reevaluating everything sucks big time, but it is still a lot better than not being born at all, which what government-imposed violation of Parents' Rights leads to - fertility rates fall through the floor! You don't get to choose your parents, but there is only so much control they can have on you, and modern information technology makes the obvious a lot more difficult to hide.


Ahh, if it were so simple - destroy the welfare state and with it will die the idiots.


I didn't say that, I've said it does more harm than good. Much of the welfare state resentment and the entitlement mentality would go away with the transition to private charity, which can receive matching funds from the state as welfare is gradually phased out. Since private charity exists in a competitive environment, it would have to convince its supporters that it's a better reflection of their values and a more cost-effective means of achieving results than the other charities it competes with, which leads to innovation, community cohesion, and most importantly of all - greater interest in helping the "victims of poverty" help themselves, both individually and as a community.


Again, racism was doing very fine before anyone dreamed about welfare and the like. I seriously doubt that most white racists would cease to be racist if pro - minority government actions stopped. To them this is just a "civilized" excuse for hate that has a psychologically deeper, not unoften religion- like or religious per se grounding, LDS did not allow Blacks into priesthood untill the 70's. In my country there is a certain sociological phenomenon called "Jew - less antisemitism'', so this often has nothing to do with real, economic situation that the state could be blamed for.


None of this invalidates what I've said. Summing up: (1) people have a Right to be racist in their personal opinions and choices as long as they don't initiate aggression, (2) racism is irrational, economically destructive, and self-defeating, and (3) to use of government force under the slogan of ending racism is like trying to perform dental surgery with a chainsaw - it does a lot more harm than good.

Edited by Alex Libman, 31 May 2010 - 03:01 PM.


#44 platypus

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 03:58 PM

Any normal Anarcho-Capitalist would answer the question about the "civil rights" legislation with a moving speech on how a civilized society must find better ways of dealing with things like racism without utilizing government force, which is a dangerous weapon that always backfires and has unintended consequences. Society needs to advance through understanding and healing, not institutionalized violence and resentment!

Are you kidding? Is saying "we must find better ways" supposed to be the plan for solving that particular problem?

#45 Alex Libman

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 04:43 PM

No, it is an excellent argument against Roussean "totalitarian" democracy where the majority can vote that "today we hang people with uneven ears" but is an argument for liberal democracy that has constitutional regulations which cannot be taken back by any act of voting, like antidiscriminatory articles.


And what divine force is going to ensure those "constitutional regulations" remain valid and constant in interpretation, even though every single historical example has suffered from the gradual encroachment of power? Democracy is a dictatorship of the political elite that uses demagogue tactics to influence public opinion, and any constitution is just a "god-damned piece of paper". Only a balance of tangible individual power, not some vague promises interpreted by an almighty state, can keep a society stable, prosperous, and free!


In, respectively, libertarian nightmare - land and libertarian fantasy - land.


You have never been able to address the arguments for causality between economic freedom and prosperity, but you call the conclusions drawn from that evidence (and many other factual and deductive sources) a mere "fantasy". This makes your arguments as ridiculous as the often-misattributed famous claim that "everything that can be invented, has been invented". I do not plan on using a time machine to apply my "libertarian fantasy-land" theories in any century other than the 21st, which will have the benefit of the new technological advances that will make Anarcho-Capitalism a lot more attainable, and I don't plan to impose those theories on anyone by force.


Racism doesn't fall into such objective categories as a science experiment. It is different when one is taught either that "2+2 = 5" or "Blacks are inferior to Whites". The former makes any serious technical progress virtualy impossible, the latter not, which the science of Third Reich ( few steps from getting the nuke first, not to mention rocketry) is a prove of.


No form of government is going to make racism or ethnocentrism disappear overnight, and brainwashing everyone by force will inevitably have negative consequences. It does, however, have tangible economic drawbacks when applied in practice, especially in business and trade. The Third Reich might have had the nuke in the 1930s if it wasn't for their racism, and if their racism was allowed to continue longer then its economic harms would have been a lot more self-evident.


If, in a hipotetical world there was an economic advantage to racism ( higher birth rates come to mind ) then it would be a reasonable trait to have and nurture in free market terms, but it wouldn't change its moral qualification by a tiny bit.


It would change its moral qualifications completely! If there was an economic advantage to X then I would support X, but there isn't. As you can tell from my opposition to "animal rights", for example, I would never let emotions get in the way of my political philosophy, which is based on pure reason. If any "race" of people were incapable of being "rational economic actors", then I would advocate making all of them slaves even if no one conceived of slavery before me, but genetic differences in cognitive abilities are virtually non-existent within the human species.


The guy who opened fire in Holocaust Museum in Washington the last year had IQ of Mensa level, so I guess he would be well in a technocratic, science driven An Cap society ( if he was lucky that they were all White of course ).


No, a crime is a crime, regardless of the perpetrators or the victim's IQ. Negative Rights must apply equally to all "rational economic actors", the capacity for which is inherent in human beings as a species.


This rests on the assumption that there always is a freer society to move to. Turing could run to France for example, but Leonardo didn't have much choice if he got into trouble because of being a homosexual – if not Italy, then where else would he go ? Amsterdam wasn't yet the option :|< !!.


That is why building the world's first libertarian society is so important, even if it's in the middle of the ocean - it would provide an escape hatch for refugees from all over the world that is unrestricted except for the laws of economic reality. If there are too many uneducated refugees then housing would be expensive and mindless labor would be very cheap, which would limit how many unskilled laborers would move there at any given time (which individual would-be movers would be able to consider in advance thanks to information technology), but people like the Turings and the Leonardos of the modern age would probably make it aboard and create more and more jobs through their inventions.


JLL sugested that it should be allowed for a racist to for example not sell his house to a black person and this brings us to the hipotetical problem of a Black family living in, let's say Elohim City. For the sake of argument let's suppose they were there before the Christian Identiters. Soon their life becomes unbereable, not thanks to deliberate use of force by the extremists ( so no violation of NAP here ), but because simply being outnumbered and unable to get service from the White plummer or mechanic or being served in a restaurant. They will of course get the hell out of there, but there is an obvious ethical horror of such situation. If they had antidiscriminatory laws to turn to, they would have a tool to fight with.


I am a big fan of political migration movements and planned communities like this - it allows good people to live the way they want to live, and it makes bad people a lot easier to ostracize and stay away from. Just as long as NAP isn't violated, everybody gets their way! Well, almost - it's an interesting scenario to imagine: a "white" racist community forming around a piece of "nail house" property owned by an outspoken black family that refuses to sell at any cost... I just might write a television drama episode based on this! Seriously, though, this scenario would be very rare, because the racists would be able to anticipate this problem and do prior research, and there's plenty of land in the world for them to set up their community on. Most families, "black" or otherwise, would also choose to live in a neighborhood association or some other form of contractual alliance of adjacent properties that would prevent a racist takeover.


Again, XIX / XX century and the hay days of laissez faire economy indicate differently, the case of Henry Ford shows that one can be most succesfull capitalistic entrepreneur and a fervent racist at the same time and good pals with Hitler. Unless of course we are talking about the "really real" free market capitalism dreamed of by An Caps that will take place somewhere in XXI century, when racism will be a thing of the past but unfortunately ( to the An Caps ) thanks to events of the previous century that involved a lot of positive government and international action in for example the sphere of public education.


All of history would be unnecessary if people back then knew everything we know today, but history had to figure things out for itself, making a lot of mistakes along the way. You cannot claim that government was necessary to end some of the barbarism (which it itself caused) any more than a Muslim can claim that only Islam could have given women rights, even though he would be right in saying that Islam did improve on most of the societies that it conquered. If we want to achieve the greatest benefits from our future then we must base our outlook on reason, not random circumstances and mindless traditions of the past!

Edited by Alex Libman, 31 May 2010 - 04:47 PM.


#46 Alex Libman

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 05:38 PM

Chris, one point that probably needs to be made is that every form of prejudice is a result of status seeking behavior. X dislikes, fears, and separates themselves from Y because it feeds their sense of social pecking order.


This is why libertarianism inevitably leads to individualism, and all of this has already been covered in great depth by psychologists like Nathaniel Branden and his students. You also need to take technological progress into account: we are all emperors over our property -- our toys, our pets, our television sets, our sex dolls, our robots, and our holodeck characters -- which substantially reduces the psychological need to dominate other human beings.

Constructive "status seeking" is the engine of human progress. Destructive "status seeking" is a collectivist concept libertarian children don't have imposed on them if their parents educate them in the Montessori method, and which they utilize a lot more constructively as they grow up and prepare themselves for free market competition. In a society without government power, status is a lot more of a meritocracy and is a lot more geared toward self-selected fields of endeavor: I care a lot more about my status as an Anarcho-Capitalist übertroll than I do about my financial status, otherwise I'd be doing something else at this particular moment.


I just finished Poverty and Progress, and finally figured out the primary fallacy in all of Alex's beliefs. It does not address human status seeking behavior, which is behind nearly all of the abuses that beset an unregulated free market. Humans co-operate to meet needs, and the market does naturally seek to meet those needs. If supply and demand were the sole factor involved, then the theories of Randianism could possibly work as they claim they will. [...]


Do you mean Progress and Poverty? It's nice that someone actually reads Henry George, because many of his left-wing supporters clearly haven't... Libertarianism is a meta-system that would allow Georgist communes, Anarcho-Capitalist societies, and other forms of voluntary governance to exist side-by-side and compete for brains and capital on the basis of merit. Just as long as you respect the Rights of people to leave your commune then we don't have a problem...


It also explains why Obama has resulted in such outrage among them, even those who are not "racist" still perceive blacks as belonging to a lower status then themselves, and his elevation to the "head" of "All pecking orders" thus violates their sense of pack order.


Ron Paul's first choice for Vice Presidential running mate would have been libertarian economist (and Free State Project supporter) Walter E. Williams.

Posted Image


Any normal Anarcho-Capitalist would answer the question about the "civil rights" legislation with a moving speech on how a civilized society must find better ways of dealing with things like racism without utilizing government force, which is a dangerous weapon that always backfires and has unintended consequences. Society needs to advance through understanding and healing, not institutionalized violence and resentment!

Are you kidding? Is saying "we must find better ways" supposed to be the plan for solving that particular problem?


The Anarcho-Capitalist plan is already well-known: the Non-Aggression Principle, defensive force against NAP violators, a restitution-based justice system, voluntary governance based on Property Rights and explicit contracts, voluntary ostracism of unethical behavior that doesn't violate NAP, personal / corporate reputation tracking databases, and so on. Let the market decide just how badly the non-violent racists (like my mother) deserve to be punished.

Edited by Alex Libman, 31 May 2010 - 05:56 PM.


#47 AdamSummerfield

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 10:17 PM

Not completely. Taxes are needed to operate a police force, emergency services, sanitation and so forth effectively.

The only other services I advocate collective provision for are public education facilities (schools and libraries) and R&D such as the U.S.A.'s DARPA and NASA.


Why must those things be operated by a violent monopoly?


Roads: My idea of privately owned roads would be stopping at every road to pay, is this incorrect? People would also have to go through the inconvenience of always having money on them so that they don't get stranded.

Police force: There's a law of the land, and leaving out the discussion of whether country x has a good one, it needs to be enforced. If someone kills another person, neither of whom had police insurance, what happens? Also, won't the law become some financial commodity so that people who are better customers get better service? So that they might just get away with breaking the law if they can pay.

Rescue services: I never know when I'm going to get stranded at sea or in the cold and get hypothermia. I don't won't insurance for that particular thing on my mind. Granted, if you're a caver or mountaineer, you probably do have some idea that that's going to happen to you. But if a ferry sinks and the private rescue team comes in, do they ask the people they rescue to pay up afterwards?

Sanitation: How exactly would a water cleaning company work? Would my water providing company choose who should clean the water first so that I don't have to? Also, if my neighbour is poor and doesn't pay for sanitation, the building filth on his side of the fence is likely to start polluting the rest of the neighbourhood.

Education: Everyone should have free at the point of delivery education, it is central for social mobility and destroying the poverty trap.

R&D: Internet was created by DARPA and CERN together. Space exploration achieved by governments worldwide, exclusively until recently which has had trickle down effects on other industries. Sometimes forced development of something highly important benefits everything.
Also, if you look at history, great empires, with relatively great qualities of life, have grown out of some forced existence of learning. The libraries and academies of Greece in the antiquity started all western ideas and technology.
The Royal Society was created by the English monarch - the British Empire and modern science were the result.

What's NAP?

Edited by AdamSummerfield, 31 May 2010 - 10:20 PM.


#48 bobdrake12

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 03:53 AM

"Rise Of The New Right" MSNBC Documentary Cites Alex Jones, Rand Paul as "Extremists

Edited by bobdrake12, 01 June 2010 - 04:04 AM.


#49 Alex Libman

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:15 AM

(I'm going to reply to AdamSummerfield's last post on the "Transhumanism and Anarcho-Capitalism" thread - and I probably should have moved my last few posts from this thread there as well... I wish it was possible to move posts after the fact...)

#50 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 02:56 PM

Cute An-Cap trifles first

Being a communist was a bit more excusable the farther back in history you go, and also a bit more excusable for people whose intellectual accomplishments were unrelated to philosophy and economics.


So I guess John Maynard Keynes ( a watered - down commie according to your system ) wouldn't make it to the Worthy Of A Good Name list because his intelectual accomplishments were on the "wrong" side of the political fence that defines your worldview.

I mentioned Haldane and Bernal not to justify their ideological choices, but to disprove your little self appreciating observation from another thread that being an Anarcho-Capitalist correlates strongly with capability for logical reasoning, and that's why you find many of them among programmers for example, as I think it's safe to assume that a renowned mathematician or physicist posesses this trait and yet politically can be very well on exactly the opposite side to An-Cap. According to your view, every capable mind should recognize the Libertarian ideology as optimal and all statisms as intelectually repulsive no matter the actual political circumstances in a particular time, on purely rational level, this was to show on an example that you are wrong on this.

A great mathematician can be a religious nut, a great philosopher cannot be.


Then I wonder what was so tempting to Ayn Rand in the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas, who appart from obvious religious nuttism ( a Catholic saint for god's sakes ) also advocated a social order ( feudalist ) precisely contradictory to one individualistic, merit based, with space for free, rational enquiry.

For a person of my time and my predisposition for curiosity in all fields of knowledge to be a communist would indeed signify a cognitive disorder of some sort.


This is just intelectual onanism, spare me please. It falls into the category "I'm smart, so I'm right".


Ron Paul's first choice for Vice Presidential running mate would have been libertarian economist (and Free State Project supporter) Walter E. Williams.


It's very nice that Ron Paul has cleaned his act after the affair with the newsletter from a couple of years ago full of racists rants signed with his name. Still, it doesn't say anything substantial to your theory that Libertarians are basicaly immune to bigotry, it's just an appeal to authority of a certain Libertarian who happened to choose a Black co - operative, perhaps exactly for tactical PR reasons to remove the stench from that newsletter story. Nazis had an "honorary Aryan" title to grant to somebody when it was convenient for them, but it did not mean they were any less racists then they actually were. Often an antisemite will say that he doesn't have a problem with Jews in general, just with the Zionists, but it turns out that to him any Jew is naturarily a Zionist untill he proves otherwise.

Yeah, all us Anarcho-Capitalist Jews sound like that.


You know, given that even Nazism attempted to make use of Jesus, I come closer and closer to thinking that he is probably the most versatile political "whore" in history. The basic fallacy of this paper is that it presents him as "anti - statist", whereas Jesus was actually "a - statist", he opposed the Roman Empire because he thought a far greater State is on its way, so everything "earthly" is utterly unimportant. It really takes a lot of intellectual stunts to prove that a man who preached that "Kingdom will come like thief in the night" and "let the dead burry the dead" would have a mindset somehow kin to a far - planning, investment oriented private entrepreneur. I don't think the sentence "Don't worry what you will eat because Heveanly Father will grant you everything that is needed" is very much in favor of economic individual responsibility. Not to mention "turning the other cheek" matches poorly with NAP which doesn't preclude violence in self defense.

If Jesus could be described as an Anarchist - anything, then only because in his mind the ultimate welfare state was to come soon, to surpass any political organism humans could devise on their own, where everybody will be provided with everything they need. Pretty much like a hippie with rich parents - they will pay for whatever he messes "on the road" anyway, so he might as well have some fun. I had good laugh though reading the section on why he would be against prohibition. "Jesus Christ would oppose War On Drugs" will make a kickass bumper sticker.

And oh, is that Contradiction Of The Month prize still up for grabs ? I may have a candidate : " The author James Redford is a young born again Christian who was converted from atheism by a direct revelation from Jesus Christ. He is a scientific rationalist (...)"


More serious anti An-Cap bits comming soon.

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 03:41 PM.


#51 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:40 PM

And what divine force is going to ensure those "constitutional regulations" remain valid and constant in interpretation, even though every single historical example has suffered from the gradual encroachment of power? Democracy is a dictatorship of the political elite that uses demagogue tactics to influence public opinion, and any constitution is just a "god-damned piece of paper". Only a balance of tangible individual power, not some vague promises interpreted by an almighty state, can keep a society stable, prosperous, and free!

The same divine force which you think will keep actors from violating the An Cap rule-set. An example relevant to me right now is the plane crash of April 10th when my president died together with the top militaries. If democracy was indeed such a sorry system as you try to prove ( and I will add that Poland would not even get a total AAA in democratic standards ) then this would be a perfect occasion for somebody to try a coup d'etat. Yet, nothing happened except for what the constitution ( just a god damned piece of paper) strictly foresaw - the Speaker of Parliament took charge and started to implement the foreseen official procedures, together with acting out the ussuall "national tragedy" theater. Suprisingly - not a sign of faul play whastsoever, the "divine" law worked well.

If it violates NAP then it is a state - whether it waves a flag or simply puts an arrow in your back doesn't change its fundamental nature.

If a corporation starts to run everything on the face of the planet, and given that maximalizing profit is its natural characterisitc this is sooner or later inevitable, then as Val already told you, it becomes „The Government” as its no longer voluntary because one can not effectively cease to be a part of it, unless by leaving the planet.


The Non-Aggression Principle is self-sustaining in a sufficiently advanced society because the vast majority of people (who control an even greater majority of wealth) benefit from NAP and are thus willing to defend it.


You accuse the "socialist" fraction here of acts of blind faith in government's benevolence but it's obvious that you have your own set of magic wands in the chest. You adamantly refuse to acknowledge the self evident sub - rational leaning of human species and the inherent unfairness of fate, that's why I said about "libertarian fantasy land". You split status seeking behaviour into "constructive" and "destructive", and decide to believe that at the crucial moments the actors with the most power will hold themselves from the latter and "do the right thing" because they will recognise that not doing so would be harmfull to them in the long run.

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 09:36 PM.


#52 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:43 PM

You have never been able to address the arguments for causality between economic freedom and prosperity, but you call the conclusions drawn from that evidence (and many other factual and deductive sources) a mere "fantasy". This makes your arguments as ridiculous as the often-misattributed famous claim that "everything that can be invented, has been invented". I do not plan on using a time machine to apply my "libertarian fantasy-land" theories in any century other than the 21st, which will have the benefit of the new technological advances that will make Anarcho-Capitalism a lot more attainable, and I don't plan to impose those theories on anyone by force.


So let's do a dry run on an existing country with a high level of economic freedom, like one of the despotic monarchies in the Persian Gulf area. Basically you have a society with a very rigid, factually caste system - the haves are in possession of not even the majority but practically all of the wealth ( and it's even hard to call that "merit achieved" because they did not really produce anything appart from a very cosy envirnonment to making bussiness and they're just lucky to be living on oil). The have nots ( who in terms of sheer numbers are prevalent ) have no political representation - they don't have the status of citizens, despite that they contribute to "the machinery" of the country, and it's impossible for them to get the same standards of service ( like in medical care ) as their "masters" etc..

Now take this a step further and imagine that tomorrow there is also some catastrophe that wipes out all their ruling family together with their secret service commanders ( as far as I know they don't have real armies, so the secret agents are the only possible thugs to use against society). If I'm reading you correctly, this would be a circumstance putting this country on essentialy the right track. After some time we throw in the technical progress that renders the low paid underjobs more and more automatable, so the have nots become pretty much useless economically to the higher class. In such situation the elite recognizes that it was only the violence aparatus of the state ( which is now absent after the crash ) that held the underdogs' agression under the carpet, so they arm themselves, and so do the "proles", you see where this is going ?

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 09:29 PM.


#53 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:46 PM

No form of government is going to make racism or ethnocentrism disappear overnight, and brainwashing everyone by force will inevitably have negative consequences.


How is teaching about the horrendousness of racism in a public school brainwashing ?

If, in a hipotetical world there was an economic advantage to racism ( higher birth rates come to mind ) then it would be a reasonable trait to have and nurture in free market terms, but it wouldn't change its moral qualification by a tiny bit.


It would change its moral qualifications completely! If there was an economic advantage to X then I would support X, but there isn't. As you can tell from my opposition to "animal rights", for example, I would never let emotions get in the way of my political philosophy, which is based on pure reason. If any "race" of people were incapable of being "rational economic actors", then I would advocate making all of them slaves even if no one conceived of slavery before me, but genetic differences in cognitive abilities are virtually non-existent within the human species.

in my mind it is the defenders of anti-racism laws that sound the most racist: "black people are inferior and therefore compassionate Mommy Government has to protect them from reality". When the pro-"affirmative action" socialists mention things like "scientific racism" it's almost like they're afraid that those theories are on some level true! I am very confident that they are not. In my own personal experience I've worked with a number of "black" people very closely, and I was very impressed with their competence and work ethic, which with some individuals was much superior to my own.


As they say - hindsight is always 20/20. You have the comfort of current scientific knowledge, empirical to the best of its present abilities to match with your personal experience of the fallacy of racism, and so it's obvious to you that it's economically harmfull to the haters in the long run, but this is the trap that your philosophy plants on yourself. Logically it is akin to saying „If there was no God I would lie, cheat and still. But luckily there is God.” – if in XIX century it seemed to be a scienctific consensus that indeed other races are incapable of being REA's, then it was economically reasonable to treat their members as a commodity that can be purchased and sold ( and because indeed there are no races of people uncapable of becoming RAE 's, then you won't ever have to face the hipotetical consequences that you claim you would be advocating if it was economically adavantegous ) – so XIX century's free market would tell you to be as racist as everybody else, and it would have to be reasonable for you to follow, since every current economy is the ethical oracle as well to you.

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 09:27 PM.


#54 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:47 PM

JLL sugested that it should be allowed for a racist to for example not sell his house to a black person and this brings us to the hipotetical problem of a Black family living in, let's say Elohim City. For the sake of argument let's suppose they were there before the Christian Identiters. Soon their life becomes unbereable, not thanks to deliberate use of force by the extremists ( so no violation of NAP here ), but because simply being outnumbered and unable to get service from the White plummer or mechanic or being served in a restaurant. They will of course get the hell out of there, but there is an obvious ethical horror of such situation. If they had antidiscriminatory laws to turn to, they would have a tool to fight with.

I am a big fan of political migration movements and planned communities like this - it allows good people to live the way they want to live, and it makes bad people a lot easier to ostracize and stay away from. Just as long as NAP isn't violated, everybody gets their way! Well, almost - it's an interesting scenario to imagine: a "white" racist community forming around a piece of "nail house" property owned by an outspoken black family that refuses to sell at any cost... I just might write a television drama episode based on this! Seriously, though, this scenario would be very rare, because the racists would be able to anticipate this problem and do prior research, and there's plenty of land in the world for them to set up their community on. Most families, "black" or otherwise, would also choose to live in a neighborhood association or some other form of contractual alliance of adjacent properties that would prevent a racist takeover.


Sure, everybody loves an adventure, but what you chose to discretely side step, is that the family here are not embarking on a "political migration movement" but are becoming refugees. The Identiters might do the prior research, and still want that land because they just happened to like the view . In this scenario the family is finally driven away as their life becomes a constant emotional distress, yet nowhere here is the An Cap rule-set defiled. The refusal to provide services doesn't violate it,nor does hate speech and nothing "bad" from the Right's perspective happens here, but in fact Might Makes Right sneakes through the back door. The extreme logical extension is that if they were hated everywhere else, they could even be eventually driven out of the planet itself, yet nowhere along the way the An Cap rules weren't kept intact. This is why you have to hope for the supposedly soon comming space revolution, so that the right to free exit wouldn't become an empty relic, because there wouldn't simply be anywhere left to exit to.

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 09:38 PM.


#55 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:49 PM

If we want to achieve the greatest benefits from our future then we must base our outlook on reason, not random circumstances and mindless traditions of the past!

I couldn't agree more ! So let's work toward keeping the circumstances to our suiting and and not hope for Spontaneous Order to emerge when we let all the ropes go.

To me the major fallacy of yours comes from personalisation of merely a tool ( the state ) into an actor. The state is the counterparting agora to the market's one – like the market is the space to negotiate the price/cost balance, so the state is for groups of people in similar material situation (which is what makes a class) to negotiate with others the modus vivendi on this particular piece of land that they all inhabit and make sure that those affected by certain decisions of others also have their legitimate say. Politicans in their proper function are supposed to be „maintainence personel” of that agora, if they act against this, for example by letting themselves become hostage of one group – they should be changed, and not the agora itself destroyed.

Paraphrasing you : „So here's this machine that's tied to wellbeing of a lot people, but it works sub optimal, which even the ones who see the machine as neccessary can admit but as history shows it's also susceptible to being upgraded. But still - let's just turn it off and see what happens. Our theoretical models say that it should be ok.”

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 09:41 PM.


#56 chris w

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:59 PM

Imagine what would happen if a country in Africa achieved Anarcho-Capitalism, which means not just the absence of government but a culture where NAP is almost-universally recognized, its violators are routinely brought to justice, and other governments are unable to invade because their public opinion wouldn't allow it, and because invading a country of well-armed and freedom-loving individuals is a lot more difficult than simply conquering an existing government. There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant or a refugee to be turned away from an Anarcho-Capitalist society: if you can pay your way or otherwise attain (ex. private charity) a place to live then you have the Right to stay. Such a country would not only accept all of Hitler's refugees (thereby also diffusing the future situation in Palestine), but it would compete with South Africa for regional economic leadership, sucking in its brains and capital, no matter their "color", until South Africa would be forced to reform!

Racism has cost Germany dearly in their loss of millions of brilliant minds like Einstein, and the German scientists they did have were a result of cultural momentum from a less oppressive society of the past.


I imagine and this is what I see : the hipotetical An Cap Madagascar indeed becomes the destination of refugees from Germany and a procedure is implemented by the representants of this political organism to judge the economic utitlity of each single person filing for the refuge. They won't just "make" jobs like Keynes would advice, because in perfect An Cap political body there exist only jobs that have a genuine economic purpose, produce a good that there is real demand for. You phrase this situation ( "millions of briliant minds like Einstein") to create a smoke screen over the fact that most of these people when facing the gates of the new land would be deemed as unuseful judging upon their economical potential to the An Cap land which will let the Einsteins in, but the average Joes will remain boat people on no man's land/sea, because how many simple tailors and shoemakers are needed in the long run there ? And I doubt private charity on its own would be able to sustain those millions.

Edited by chris w, 01 June 2010 - 09:40 PM.


#57 bobdrake12

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:57 AM

Question regarding the Rand Paul civil rights statements.


#58 sentrysnipe

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 03:14 AM

Definitely nothing like his father. He avoids the question like a typical politician. Maddow's question was legitimate and had he not danced around the issue, he would have nailed that segment.

Yes it is very much OK for a private institution to impose racist directives upon their people, just as much as Stormfront can maintain their servers on the internet. Maddow is just a militant liberal and Rand should have been clearer on his point.

#59 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 09:45 PM

Definitely nothing like his father. He avoids the question like a typical politician. Maddow's question was legitimate and had he not danced around the issue, he would have nailed that segment.

Yes it is very much OK for a private institution to impose racist directives upon their people, just as much as Stormfront can maintain their servers on the internet. Maddow is just a militant liberal and Rand should have been clearer on his point.


I think Stormfront finds that Rand made himself abundantly clear:

http://www.stormfron.../forum/t632288/

Rand Paul has been attending Stormfront events... Campaigning and fundraising with Stormfront support he was able to raise $450,000 cash in 24 hours. They certainly loved his answers.




David Duke, Grand Wizard of the K K K fully endorses Rand Paul for US Senate

http://www.davidduke...ries_18005.html

He loves Rand Paul's answers too.



Why does none of this make me feel like Rand Paul is someone I would want in ANY office?

#60 platypus

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:17 PM

Roads: My idea of privately owned roads would be stopping at every road to pay, is this incorrect? People would also have to go through the inconvenience of always having money on them so that they don't get stranded.

Besides, that would lead into competing roads being built between some destinations whuch is a waste of land and resources and goes to show that free markets don't necessarily allocate resources in an optimal way.




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