47 replies to this topic

[unregistered_user]

I'm new to the boards so this will be my introductory post. To provide a brief background on my myself, I’m 22 years old and early 2009 was when I enrolled myself in an ADHD clinical trial I heard advertised over the radio. I was unable to address my cognitive problems earlier because I was without adequate health insurance and always felt there was something to be gained by learning how to persevere in life despite one's personality foibles. This is something my parents impressed upon me. It’s not as though they maintained an aversion to perscription medications but it was always suggested that I take a wait-and-see approach and learn how to compensate for my difficulties by cultivating behavioral changes and learning how to adapt. I don’t disagree with this thinking and seeing how I was in my formative years when I first began expressing these concerns I think it was responsible of them to put of medicating me. Now, however, as an adult who is cognizant enough to realize a definite problem exists and is feeling the detrimental impact of it I’ve chosen to find a way to mitigate it. Mental mediocrity is something I’m no longer willing to settle for.

I never displayed characteristics consistent with typical ADHD growing up but my subpar mental acuity throughout school and into my short-lived foray into community college was always due to my lack of ability to study. I always accepted that lack of discipline was a possible reason for my below average performance but in hindsight, discipline is not something that I inherently lack. Ability to maintain interest, focus, and to parse the information I’m receiving are far and away more accurate explanations for being a marginal student.

Taking on a new, mentally demanding and high stress job recently has motivated me to seek help in order better prepare myself for success. Working in a fast paced environment which requires me to manage people all day and maintain a constant awareness of many different facets of the business I run has proven very difficult for my inattentive brain. Nearly impossible. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about this condition is not being able to properly articulate how it affects me. Sure, I can rattle off a laundry list of symptoms just as easily as the next person but fatigue, lack of motivation, inability to focus, extreme difficulty assimiliating information and social avoidance could be attributed to any number of disorders, couldn’t it?

I recently learned about ADD of the inattentive variety, or SCT, and felt that the characterization of this disorder summed up my problems with impressive accuracy. I was fortunate to be chosen to participate in the aforementioned ADHD clinical trial not because the trial compound I tested yeilded any results for me but because it afforded me several months worth of courtesy visits with a psychiastrist who graciously allowed me to explore two types of drug therapy: methylphenidate and amphetimines; which ultimately I was able to rule out as effective forms of treatment. First I tried the generic form of Ritalin 20MG IR and eventually the ER version but decided it wasn’t for me due the hypomania followed by the downward spiral in mood it induced. The crash (which featured a flat affect) was enough for me to stop treatment. After Ritalin came Adderall XR 20MG and after that came Vyvanse. I experienced noticeable gains in productivity using both Adderall and Vyvanse but still the crashes and desire to fixate on trivial details while on them has prompted me to look for something more effective that treats the broader range of my symptoms. Adderall and Vyvanse only alleviated parts of my condition as they gave me an increased focus (a focus that at times was so intense that it became impractical) and provided only a transient boost in energry and mental alertness.

My goal is to find a substance or perhaps a cocktail (as small as possible) that addresses my ADHD-PI symptoms more organically. What I mean by this is that I want to feel as though these deficits are being corrected instead of feeling like a med-head all day. Anyone who has taken Ritalin or Adderall knows when they’re on it because they speed you up making you ready to clean, study or rearrange everything on your desk. I want my ideas and thought processes to happen naturally and as they should, not to be constantly aware of whatever drug I’m taking.

I apologize for the verbosity of this post. I’d blame the Adderall if I could but I’ve discontinued it after deciding to try Piracetam + Choline Bitartrate for the first time. It’s in the mail from Smart Powders right now! I’m not aware of any contraindications of Piracetam with Adderall but in order to accurately assess the efficacy of the Piracetam I feel any other substance needs to be eliminated from the equation. That... and I’m looking for a more sustainable solution. I don’t want to keep popping Adderall XR’s and seeing as it only provides relief for a fraction of my symptoms I can safely conclude it’s not the most effective form of treatment for me.

Any other ADHD-PI users care to share their regimens here? I’m a bit disheartened at how temperamental Piracetam seems to be based on what I’ve read on the boards but am giving it a go anyhow.

Be well.

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 26 May 2010 - 04:16 AM.

[elecdonia]

Is your clinical trial finished? Is it possible for you to see a good psychiatrist to get an individual diagnosis and treatment plan?

As a person who has dealt with my own case of ADHD-PI for many, many years, I would say that you will PROBABLY need prescription drug treatment if you wish to completely manage your ADHD.

Supplements, diet, and lifestyle will help, but they may not be enough to correct all of your issues. If you wish to succeed, it is essential to work with a psychiatrist who is well-trained in managing ADHD cases.

I had several periods in my life where I "did without" prescription ADHD meds, but I always slipped back into a rather "less functional" state over time. My most recent "medication vacation" was from summer 2007 until early this year (2 1/2 years without ADHD meds). By Dec. 2010 I was suffering from continuous brain fog, very low energy level, melancholic depression, anhedonia, anxiety, and insomnia. The onset of all these conditions was so gradual that I didn't perceive them until they were severe. I began Rx treatment in March 2010 with an anti-depressant. That provided some relief, but I soon realized that I needed to go back on my "old" prescription drug regimen for ADHD which had previously worked so well for me. After 2 weeks with Concerta added to my daily regimen, I am beginning to feel human again.

I went through the first 35 years of my life knowing that "something was wrong" but I didn't know what it was. Somehow I managed to obtain a really good education (MS degree), but nearly every teacher and professor consistently observed that "I didn't perform up to my abilities." After university, I started and operated several different businesses, but none of them were particularly successful due to my inability to focus on essential tasks.

My personal "eureka moment" came when my son was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 8. When diagnosed, my son was 2 years behind in reading comprehension. My wife observed that I had behavior and performance issues very similar to my son. Both myself and my son began Rx treatment for our ADHD, and both of us improved massively. By his first year in high school, my son was performing above grade level in every subject. To put this into a more practical sense, my earning capacity increased from $20k per year to $88k per year after treatment for ADHD.

My regimen:

Rx portion: Concerta 36 mg (time-released ritalin), sertraline 100 mg (aka Zoloft).

Daily supplements: A good multi-vitamin, plus additional vit. D3, magnesium, methyl B12, P5P (a form of vit. B6), methylfolate, COQ10, fish oil (EPA/DHA). I have tried many other supplements and herbs, but only use them occasionally.

Diet: Omnivore (meat, fish, vegetables, fruits, some grains). I'm steadily moving towards a relatively low carb diet. I was obese on a high-carb low-fat diet, but have dropped 40 lb. in the past year after reducing carbs.

Daily exercise: Minimum 1 mile walk, cardio workout 2x per week on stationary bike

[rvdvaart]

My symptoms are almost exactly like yours...to a T. Diet and exercise has been the most helpful. I really mean this. It's very important to have a proper diet because it significantly effects your brain chemistry. Eliminate ALL junk food and processed foods. Only eat whole grains...no white flour. If you're a meat eater, it is extremely important you eat only organic meat like free range chicken and grass-fed beef. The meat industry in the U.S. is absolute disgrace as to what they allow.

Exercise is probably the 2nd most important thing for me. If I do some sort of cardio early in the morning (whether its running or biking) my ADD symptoms almost completely disappear. I would really recommend exercising everyday if you can. The chemical changes in the brain are well documented.

As far as supplementation, here is what I recommend. Others can add to this stack:

Fish Oil - Make sure its a high quality brand like Nordic Naturals or Carlson. Do NOT buy the Walmart or generic brands
Ashwagandha - Relieves some of the mental fatigue if you need for sustained concentration
Bacopa - Very good for concentration and memory. But take it at night if you get drowsy during the day. It takes about 2 months for this to fully kick but it works well. It's not like Adderall or Ritalin so you won't "feel" it right away.
Vitamin D3 - Very important if you live north of Georgia because your body doesn't absorb the suns rays for half the year. Helps a lot with everything - fatigue, ADD symptoms, concentration. In fact, studies are coming out almost everyday relating Vitamin D deficiency to things like ADD, cancer, depression, diabetes.
Acetyl L-Carnatine - Very good for memory
Ginko Biloba - Some claim it works. Some claim it doesn't work. Its really dependent on the individual.

Good luck

Edited by rvdvaart, 27 May 2010 - 03:42 AM.

[elecdonia]

My symptoms are almost exactly like yours...to a T. Diet and exercise has been the most helpful. I really mean this. It's very important to have a proper diet because it significantly effects your brain chemistry. Eliminate ALL junk food and processed foods. Only eat whole grains...no white flour.

+1 on staying away from junk foods. A recent NPR story featured a dietician who recommended limiting soft drink consumption to ONE SERVING PER WEEK. They also said that 7% of all calories consumed by people in the USA is from soft drinks and other "sweetened" beverages. That's 140 empty calories per day on a 2000 calory diet.

I read more and more negative comments about ALL wheat products (including whole wheat) at imminst (M&M forums too). As a result, I am currently reducing my wheat consumption. I previously ate a lot of wheat products (bread, cereal, pasta). About 80% of what I consumed was "whole grain." I never had any celiac disease or allergy symptoms from eating wheat products, but I was obese and am still somewhat overweight. I keep thinking about this one comment which I read about eating grains: "If you eat a lot of grains, you will look like a bird: Skinny legs and round in the middle" The other issue that troubles me about grains is that farmers feed grains to cattle and pigs to "fatten them up more quickly." But I don't want to fatten up quickly!

If you're a meat eater, it is extremely important you eat only organic meat like free range chicken and grass-fed beef. The meat industry in the U.S. is absolute disgrace as to what they allow.

Studies show that the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fats is higher in grass-fed meats. I prefer the taste of grass-fed meat. I also like bison meat a lot (Bison is lower in fat than beef). Most of us need more omega-3 fats, even when we supplement with fish oil. I think its good to get some of our omega-3 fats from foods too, rather than only from supplements.

Exercise is probably the 2nd most important thing for me. If I do some sort of cardio early in the morning (whether its running or biking) my ADD symptoms almost completely disappear. I would really recommend exercising everyday if you can. The chemical changes in the brain are well documented.

+1 on exercise. It is essential, especially for those of us with desk jobs!

As far as supplementation, here is what I recommend. Others can add to this stack:

Fish Oil - Make sure its a high quality brand like Nordic Naturals or Carlson. Do NOT buy the Walmart or generic brands
Ashwagandha - Relieves some of the mental fatigue if you need for sustained concentration
Bacopa - Very good for concentration and memory. But take it at night if you get drowsy during the day. It takes about 2 months for this to fully kick but it works well. It's not like Adderall or Ritalin so you won't "feel" it right away.
Vitamin D3 - Very important if you live north of Georgia because your body doesn't absorb the suns rays for half the year. Helps a lot with everything - fatigue, ADD symptoms, concentration. In fact, studies are coming out almost everyday relating Vitamin D deficiency to things like ADD, cancer, depression, diabetes.
Acetyl L-Carnatine - Very good for memory
Ginko Biloba - Some claim it works. Some claim it doesn't work. Its really dependent on the individual.

Good luck

My opinions on these supplements:

Fish oil (EPA/DHA) and Vitamin D3 are essential parts of my daily regimen, as is magnesium

Ashwaghanda improves my sleep. I usually take it at night
ALCAR makes me feel too "wired" (whether or not combined with R-ALA). I have a hard time taking ALCAR regularly. I may try it again after I stabilize my ADHD/mood issues.
I haven't tried Bacopa yet
Ginkgo: I've tried it on and off for about a year. It didn't seem to have much effect for me. Perhaps I should try a different brand?

[unregistered_user]

Thanks for the useful responses both of you. Without a doubt, diet and exercise can't be overlooked as their impact on a person's mental and physical wellbeing can be profound.

Is your clinical trial finished? Is it possible for you to see a good psychiatrist to get an individual diagnosis and treatment plan?

Yes, I completed it nearly a year ago and at the conclusion of the trial was given several months worth of gratis visits to a very good psychiatrist - the one who was in-charge of monitoring the trial. He was the one who allowed me to try Ritalin, Adderall and Vyvanse. While I had some success with all of them, I still didn't like the idea of being "medicated". I want whichever substance(s) I take in order to correct the deficits I have caused by ADHD-PI to have a normalizing effect on my brain. Like when you put on glasses. My guess is you aren't constantly aware of them because they don't make you see through walls, women's clothes, etc. They just correct your vision problem. Similarly, I don't want to be continuously aware of my mind's "altered" state as I am when I'm on any of the previously mentioned RX drugs.

Since I just received my piracetam and choline bitartrate in the mail this morning, I've decided to keep a dosage log that documents various information about each dosing and my response so I can better understand how to tweak my program should I reveal myself to be a non-responder or eventual non-responder. At the end of each day I'll post it here. I'm making no commitments about how long I'll keep this up. Perhaps piracetam won't be for me and I'll abandon it 2 months in. Conversely, I could be the next latent Isochroma just waiting to blossom. We shall see.

[kassem23]

Thanks for the useful responses both of you. Without a doubt, diet and exercise can't be overlooked as their impact on a person's mental and physical wellbeing can be profound.

Is your clinical trial finished? Is it possible for you to see a good psychiatrist to get an individual diagnosis and treatment plan?

Yes, I completed it nearly a year ago and at the conclusion of the trial was given several months worth of gratis visits to a very good psychiatrist - the one who was in-charge of monitoring the trial. He was the one who allowed me to try Ritalin, Adderall and Vyvanse. While I had some success with all of them, I still didn't like the idea of being "medicated". I want whichever substance(s) I take in order to correct the deficits I have caused by ADHD-PI to have a normalizing effect on my brain. Like when you put on glasses. My guess is you aren't constantly aware of them because they don't make you see through walls, women's clothes, etc. They just correct your vision problem. Similarly, I don't want to be continuously aware of my mind's "altered" state as I am when I'm on any of the previously mentioned RX drugs.

Since I just received my piracetam and choline bitartrate in the mail this morning, I've decided to keep a dosage log that documents various information about each dosing and my response so I can better understand how to tweak my program should I reveal myself to be a non-responder or eventual non-responder. At the end of each day I'll post it here. I'm making no commitments about how long I'll keep this up. Perhaps piracetam won't be for me and I'll abandon it 2 months in. Conversely, I could be the next latent Isochroma just waiting to blossom. We shall see.

I like the sound of this. I wish you the best of luck on your path!

Regards

[elecdonia]

Yes, I completed it nearly a year ago and at the conclusion of the trial was given several months worth of gratis visits to a very good psychiatrist - the one who was in-charge of monitoring the trial. He was the one who allowed me to try Ritalin, Adderall and Vyvanse. While I had some success with all of them, I still didn't like the idea of being "medicated". I want whichever substance(s) I take in order to correct the deficits I have caused by ADHD-PI to have a normalizing effect on my brain. Like when you put on glasses. My guess is you aren't constantly aware of them because they don't make you see through walls, women's clothes, etc. They just correct your vision problem. Similarly, I don't want to be continuously aware of my mind's "altered" state as I am when I'm on any of the previously mentioned RX drugs.

For some of us appropriate medication may be a life-long necessity. As you said, it is analogous to wearing glasses to correct a vision problem. I believe this is especially true for those of us with ADHD and/or bipolar conditions.

My experience: I went through the first 1/2 of my life in a consistent brain fog. After being diagnosed with ADHD-PI at the ripe old age of 42, I was then medicated (Ritalin +SSRI) for more than 10 years. Result: The quality of my life improved immensely. 3 years ago, I made a decision to try going medication free, based on a belief that I had learned to cope with my ADHD. My life actually went quite well until about 10 months ago. I gradually developed worsening insomnia, depression, anxiety, low motivation, and (once again) extreme brain fog. 3 months ago I restarted medication with an SSRI first, followed by restarting Concerta. I'm now beginning to feel human again.

Since I just received my piracetam and choline bitartrate in the mail this morning, I've decided to keep a dosage log that documents various information about each dosing and my response so I can better understand how to tweak my program should I reveal myself to be a non-responder or eventual non-responder. At the end of each day I'll post it here. I'm making no commitments about how long I'll keep this up. Perhaps piracetam won't be for me and I'll abandon it 2 months in. Conversely, I could be the next latent Isochroma just waiting to blossom. We shall see.

It is an excellent goal to keep a log, especially when trying supplements. This should be very helpful. I know that I experience some conflict between trying to normalize my mental functioning as quickly as possible while simultaneously trying to identify which supplements are helpful and which are useless or negative. It is challenging to have enough patience to try one substance at a time for a long enough period to identify whether it helps.

I have found that the imminst and M&M forums both offer more "science based" and "evidence based" information than most other sources on the web. I am extremely grateful to all imminst members for providing so much valuable information. By sharing our experiences I believe we will all contribute to each others improved health. Best wishes to all of us!

[unregistered_user]

I like the sound of this. I wish you the best of luck on your path!

Thank you! I hope my minor contributions here are helpful to those looking to experience Piracetam as well. I know this substance has been discussed ad nauseum but it seems that many questions regarding efficacy, duration, etc, remain unanswered so the more information we can compile here the better in determining the answers to those questions.


Day 1:
Times: 7:30AM (1.52g Piracetam, 310mg Choline Bitartrate) / 10:00AM (760mg P, 310 CB) / 2PM (1.52g, 310mg CB) / 11PM (1.52g Piracetam, 0mg Choline Bitartrate)
Total Daily Dosage: 5.32g Piracetam & 930mg Choline Bitartrate

Effects: I got approximately 6.5 hours of sleep the night before. The first perceptible effects were enhanced color saturation as many other users have reported and these ocurred within 15 minutes of dosing. About 2.5 hours later at 10AM after not feeling much of anything I took another dose, this time half of what I took the first time (760mg Piracetam) with 310mg choline. On the way to work I found myself intensely engaged in and appreciative of the music I was listening to. Leading up to my next dose I noticed an improved mood and strange clarity (other users have likened it to putting on a pair of glasses for the first time) that I quite enjoyed.

I took another dose at 2PM after feeling as though the effects had begun wearing off again, this time the original 1.52g Piracetam and 310mg Choline Bitartrate doses were taken. Prior to dosing I had just eaten and was feeling very tired like I was ready for a nap. This dose seemed to be less effective although I did notice an altered state. I didn’t observe an enhanced fluidity in my language or any noticeable memory/cognitive improvements but I did seem more outgoing and perhaps even wittier than normal.

My last dose was taken at 11:00PM at night. I hadn’t noticed any real stimulating effects throughout the day so I decided to see how taking Piracetam that late and so close to going to bed would impact my ability to sleep. Interestingly, the end-of-day fatigue and readiness to collapse into bed has been lifted and I’m experiencing an odd alertness. I’m not sure how this alertness would stand up to any real cognitive demand (as I’m sitting in bed relaxing and typing this now) but I do feel much less exhausted. The last dose I took WITHOUT choline as I am still experimenting to see what my body responds the best to.

I’ll expand more on this idea in following posts but for now I’ll conclude my entry regarding my first piracetam experience. Incidentally, I found myself thinking multiple times throughout the day that I enjoyed the effects and overall noticed a favorable response.

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 29 May 2010 - 04:05 AM.

[unregistered_user]

Day 2:

Times: 10:30AM (1.52g Piracetam / 310mg CB) 4PM (1.52 P / 310mg CB) 10:30PM (1.52g P)
Total Daily Dosage: 4.56g Piracetam / 620mg Choline Bitartrate
Effects: Today I think it’s best to summarize the effects I noticed rather than describe how each individual dose affected me. In general I felt a greater sense of clarity than usual. Within the past 10 days I’ve discontinued my use of Adderall so I’m trying to compare the effects of Piracetam to my functioning baseline as opposed to the altered perception I’ve grown familiar with while taking Adderral. I think after 10 days I’ve returned to a normal state - enough so to where I feel my evaluation of Piracetam’s effects are accurate.

I’m keeping my fingers crossed for a cumulative effect and for the days when taking a dose of Piracetam doesn’t induce fatigue and lethargy. I’ve noticed I can be more conversational at times on Piracetam but shortly following my dosings I become quite fatigued. Other user’s accounts have pointed to this being a common side effect that diminishes with time. I hope this is the case.

I haven’t noticed anything profound or sustained but I can tell when I’ve just taken a dose of Piracetam and it hasn’t brought about any negative effects other than the tiredness (no headaches). In the following days and weeks I’ll be experimenting with varying dosages. I’m considering trying a 3g dose twice a day to see how that compares to dosing lesser amounts more frequently. After my first 5-7 days of attack doses I intend to adjust to a maintenance dose of something like 800mg - 1g. Also, I can take 1.52g of Piracetam sans Choline without any detrimental effects.

My question so far is: how necessary is Choline? Is it being recommended because it’s really valuable in potentiating the positive effects of Piracetam or simply because it helps alleviate headaches for those that get them? If I’m not someone who gets headaches from Piracetam, is it even necessary for me to take a choline supplement? What important role does choline play apart from staving off the headaches? I read “brain’s” theory about the brain’s pathway up-regulating naturally. Does Piracetam and Choline work synergistically or does this vary from person-to-person (as in: piracetam works best alone for some while piracetam+choline works best for others?)

I’ll let you all know once I’ve reached deity levels of supremacy.

[stablemind]

I like the sound of this. I wish you the best of luck on your path!

Thank you! I hope my minor contributions here are helpful to those looking to experience Piracetam as well. I know this substance has been discussed ad nauseum but it seems that many questions regarding efficacy, duration, etc, remain unanswered so the more information we can compile here the better in determining the answers to those questions.


Day 1:
Times: 7:30AM (1.52g Piracetam, 310mg Choline Bitartrate) / 10:00AM (760mg P, 310 CB) / 2PM (1.52g, 310mg CB) / 11PM (1.52g Piracetam, 0mg Choline Bitartrate)
Total Daily Dosage: 5.32g Piracetam & 930mg Choline Bitartrate

Effects: I got approximately 6.5 hours of sleep the night before. The first perceptible effects were enhanced color saturation as many other users have reported and these ocurred within 15 minutes of dosing. About 2.5 hours later at 10AM after not feeling much of anything I took another dose, this time half of what I took the first time (760mg Piracetam) with 310mg choline. On the way to work I found myself intensely engaged in and appreciative of the music I was listening to. Leading up to my next dose I noticed an improved mood and strange clarity (other users have likened it to putting on a pair of glasses for the first time) that I quite enjoyed.

I took another dose at 2PM after feeling as though the effects had begun wearing off again, this time the original 1.52g Piracetam and 310mg Choline Bitartrate doses were taken. Prior to dosing I had just eaten and was feeling very tired like I was ready for a nap. This dose seemed to be less effective although I did notice an altered state. I didn’t observe an enhanced fluidity in my language or any noticeable memory/cognitive improvements but I did seem more outgoing and perhaps even wittier than normal.

My last dose was taken at 11:00PM at night. I hadn’t noticed any real stimulating effects throughout the day so I decided to see how taking Piracetam that late and so close to going to bed would impact my ability to sleep. Interestingly, the end-of-day fatigue and readiness to collapse into bed has been lifted and I’m experiencing an odd alertness. I’m not sure how this alertness would stand up to any real cognitive demand (as I’m sitting in bed relaxing and typing this now) but I do feel much less exhausted. The last dose I took WITHOUT choline as I am still experimenting to see what my body responds the best to.

I’ll expand more on this idea in following posts but for now I’ll conclude my entry regarding my first piracetam experience. Incidentally, I found myself thinking multiple times throughout the day that I enjoyed the effects and overall noticed a favorable response.

Careful, there's some studies showing cognitive side effects from the use of piracetam for those Dxed with ADHD...

[unregistered_user]

I like the sound of this. I wish you the best of luck on your path!

Thank you! I hope my minor contributions here are helpful to those looking to experience Piracetam as well. I know this substance has been discussed ad nauseum but it seems that many questions regarding efficacy, duration, etc, remain unanswered so the more information we can compile here the better in determining the answers to those questions.


Day 1:
Times: 7:30AM (1.52g Piracetam, 310mg Choline Bitartrate) / 10:00AM (760mg P, 310 CB) / 2PM (1.52g, 310mg CB) / 11PM (1.52g Piracetam, 0mg Choline Bitartrate)
Total Daily Dosage: 5.32g Piracetam & 930mg Choline Bitartrate

Effects: I got approximately 6.5 hours of sleep the night before. The first perceptible effects were enhanced color saturation as many other users have reported and these ocurred within 15 minutes of dosing. About 2.5 hours later at 10AM after not feeling much of anything I took another dose, this time half of what I took the first time (760mg Piracetam) with 310mg choline. On the way to work I found myself intensely engaged in and appreciative of the music I was listening to. Leading up to my next dose I noticed an improved mood and strange clarity (other users have likened it to putting on a pair of glasses for the first time) that I quite enjoyed.

I took another dose at 2PM after feeling as though the effects had begun wearing off again, this time the original 1.52g Piracetam and 310mg Choline Bitartrate doses were taken. Prior to dosing I had just eaten and was feeling very tired like I was ready for a nap. This dose seemed to be less effective although I did notice an altered state. I didn’t observe an enhanced fluidity in my language or any noticeable memory/cognitive improvements but I did seem more outgoing and perhaps even wittier than normal.

My last dose was taken at 11:00PM at night. I hadn’t noticed any real stimulating effects throughout the day so I decided to see how taking Piracetam that late and so close to going to bed would impact my ability to sleep. Interestingly, the end-of-day fatigue and readiness to collapse into bed has been lifted and I’m experiencing an odd alertness. I’m not sure how this alertness would stand up to any real cognitive demand (as I’m sitting in bed relaxing and typing this now) but I do feel much less exhausted. The last dose I took WITHOUT choline as I am still experimenting to see what my body responds the best to.

I’ll expand more on this idea in following posts but for now I’ll conclude my entry regarding my first piracetam experience. Incidentally, I found myself thinking multiple times throughout the day that I enjoyed the effects and overall noticed a favorable response.

Careful, there's some studies showing cognitive side effects from the use of piracetam for those Dxed with ADHD...

Really? I've done a lot of research on Piracetam over the past few weeks and haven't stumbled upon any of those. Can you link to your sources? It seems anecdotally that contrary to your statement, users with ADHD have even realized some benefits from taking Piracetam (user brain, for example). Thanks!

[unregistered_user]

Careful, there's some studies showing cognitive side effects from the use of piracetam for those Dxed with ADHD...

This comment reminded me of this too which suggests the contrary to be true:

Piracetam In ADHD

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 2004;104(3):32-7.
Therapeutic efficacy of nootropil different doses in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Zavadenko NN, Suvorinova SIu.

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is the most common cause of behavioral and learning problems in childhood. Therapeutic efficiency of nootropil (piracetam) in two different doses has been evaluated in the open control study of 80 children with ADHD, 70 boys and 10 girls, aged 6-11 years, being divided into 3 groups. Two groups received nootropil, as a monotherapy, for a month: 1st group (30 patients)--in the dosage of 70 mg/kg daily and 2nd group (30 patients)--40 mg/kg daily orally. The control group of 20 patients did not receive any treatment. All children were examined twice with one month interval. A procedure of assessment included of structured questionnaire to parents, neurological examination with scored evaluation of subtle signs and psychological testing. Nootropil therapy in ADHD children resulted in the improvement of behavioral characteristics, motor coordination as well as continuous, selective and divided attention. A response rate was 60% in patients received 70 mg/kg of nootropil and 43% for nootropil dosage of 40 mg/kg. The results of the study suggest more considerable positive therapeutic effects of nootropil higher dose on behavioral, motor and attention characteristics in children with ADHD.

[stablemind]

One of the studies suggested the symptoms became worse. I can't find it but its somewhere on pubmed. Also there are users with ADHD reporting a rebound effect after they stopped.

Careful, there's some studies showing cognitive side effects from the use of piracetam for those Dxed with ADHD...

This comment reminded me of this too which suggests the contrary to be true:

Piracetam In ADHD

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 2004;104(3):32-7.
Therapeutic efficacy of nootropil different doses in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Zavadenko NN, Suvorinova SIu.

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is the most common cause of behavioral and learning problems in childhood. Therapeutic efficiency of nootropil (piracetam) in two different doses has been evaluated in the open control study of 80 children with ADHD, 70 boys and 10 girls, aged 6-11 years, being divided into 3 groups. Two groups received nootropil, as a monotherapy, for a month: 1st group (30 patients)--in the dosage of 70 mg/kg daily and 2nd group (30 patients)--40 mg/kg daily orally. The control group of 20 patients did not receive any treatment. All children were examined twice with one month interval. A procedure of assessment included of structured questionnaire to parents, neurological examination with scored evaluation of subtle signs and psychological testing. Nootropil therapy in ADHD children resulted in the improvement of behavioral characteristics, motor coordination as well as continuous, selective and divided attention. A response rate was 60% in patients received 70 mg/kg of nootropil and 43% for nootropil dosage of 40 mg/kg. The results of the study suggest more considerable positive therapeutic effects of nootropil higher dose on behavioral, motor and attention characteristics in children with ADHD.

[unregistered_user]

One of the studies suggested the symptoms became worse. I can't find it but its somewhere on pubmed. Also there are users with ADHD reporting a rebound effect after they stopped.

Interesting. Thanks for your input! I'll be looking more into this.

Day 3:

Times: 10:30AM (3.04g Piracetam / 620mg CB) 4:00PM (1.52g P / 310mg CB) 11:00PM (1.52g P / 310mg CB)
Total Daily Dosage: 6.08g Piracetam / 1.24g Choline Bitartrate
Effects: This was my first time experimenting with a higher dose so I started by doubling what I had previously considered my “attack dose” of 1.52g. Although I knew taking a single dose in the 3 gram range was probably excessive, it helped me to establish the parameters for my tolerance to Piracetam. For all I knew I could’ve felt amazing at 3 grams but it had to be tested in order to be discovered. I felt slow both physically and mentally. This transient retardation coupled with apathy was opposite of what Piracetam is generally touted for: alertness, focus, and motivation. I felt disinterested and incredibly mellow. Was it nap time yet? Good, now I know my limits. After two more days of regular dosages at 1.52g I’ll back it down to a maintenance dose of 900mg - 1g.

So far I enjoy taking piracetam although it certainly hasn’t brought about any “isochroma-esque” responses yet...even though I didn’t exactly expect it to. I was hoping for a more noticeable improvement in cognition and speech but it hasn’t come just yet. I fully intend to go through the entire tub and continue tweaking my dosages to see if I can zero in on the piracetam sweet spot. I am hopeful about the cumulative effects of taking piracetam and am being diligent in administering doses at least 3 times per day.

[bacopa]

you shouldn't call yourself semiretarded! You're obviously very bright and with it more than most "non retarded" people. Don't put yourself down man. I'm assuming your were tongue in cheek.

You are very aware of your cognitive weaknesses, like having to multi-task in a work environment, and your writing is very detailed with great word use. Let me bluntly state that many people, more than I realized, have all kinds of cognitive weaknesses, and they make up for it by trying that much harder.

I was a marginal student too, but mostly due to obsessive cognitive dysfunctions and low energy and fatigue problems. Consider Lions' Main for NGF (neuronal growth factor) and AlCAR, fish oil, sorry, I'm distracted by things tonight.

I wish you the best.

Edited by dfowler, 31 May 2010 - 04:06 AM.

[dilenja]

SRI,

Props to you for taking ownership of your situation and for taking an active interest in bringing yourself closer to a solution. I certainly empathize with your decision to take more control over your chemistry - your ordeal reminds me a bit of my own, which to this day continues, and which started mid 2008 when I arrived at the determination that success in conquering I-ADD is as likely to reside in personal knowledge and understanding as it is in the hands of a certified practitioner.

As you are doing now, I've tried Piracetam, and choline. I've also been afforded the opportunity to try Galantamine, Hyperzine-A, Alpha GPC, Citicoline, Vinpocetine, ALCAR, R-Lipoic Acid, Centrophenoxine, L-Pyroglutamic Acid, Oxiracetam, Aniracetam, Idebenone, Rhodiola, Ginseng, GABA, Theanine, Pycogenol, Ginkgo-Biloba, Lion's Mane, EPA, DHA, Sam-e, NADH, St. John's Wort, Pyritinol, Lithium Orotate, Modafinil, Ashwaghanda, supercritical extracts of various herbal extracts, Vaxa Attend, and supra-therapeutic doses of various amino acids and all of the most bio-available vitamins and minerals, to name a few. I've also tried the more traditional approaches consisting of Adderall and Dexedrine Spansules, and some of the less conventional approaches such as homeopathy, chiropracty, and heavy metals chelation using the cutler protocol.

In sharing this with you, it is my hope that I may be able to save you some of the time and expense I personally incurred in attempting to resolve my own issues. I very much doubt that our two chemistries are the same, but as I have been formally diagnosed with I-ADD and am quite familiar with the symptoms you describe, I feel as though there are commonalities which are at least apparent.

Of all the supplements I have tried to date, none of these in and of themselves have provided me with the feeling of transparency one would expect to be apparent within a 'normal' human facility for cognitive function. Granted, I do credit the various supplements above for enabling me to successfully work toward and finish my post-secondary education, and to make me feel 'somewhat normal' from time to time - however, in stating this it also needs to be said, that there was not a single combination of these supplements which sufficiently improved my capacity for executive function, decision making, or working memory such that I ever for an entire day felt as though I could function normally.

The 'closest' I was able to come to feeling normal has been with various combinations of the following (not taken at the same time of course); Dexedrine which I haven't taken for two years now (I had a similar enlightening experience just as you had with Vyvanse), Pyritinol (duration limited to hours at a time, and non-transparent effects), St. John's Wort (suspect due to catecholamine influence but was not without side effects), Idebenone (limited efficiecy), Rhodiola and Pycogenol (inconsistant and positive effects ameleriorated after several days of usage), and SAM-e and NADH. Unfortunately, none of these seemed to 'fully' address the fundemental mechanism(s) underlying my I-ADD and none provided any form of consistency with respect to a sustainable beneficial outcome, without side effects. The trait all of these have in common however, is that they act on Catecholamine levels (Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Epinephrine) - which stands to reason given that I-ADD is a very specific disorder believed to be primaily pertaining to Catecholamine activity. It can be no wonder then, that while there are merits to many of the other supplements and drugs I've tried, that these were of little to no 'practical' benefit to me in correcting a disorder related to catecholamines. Modafinil, Racetams, Cholinergics, Gabanergics etc etc.. may be nootropic in nature, however in my experience their efficacy has been of little therapeutic value for I-ADD related executive dysfunction.

I-ADD is a different animal than ADHD, and many researchers now readily acknowledge that it also affects different parts of the brain than ADHD: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1474811/?tool=pubmed.
Drugs such as Adderall and Dexedrine, which exert influence over the striatum amongst other areas, are IMO not specific and limited enough in their actions to provide a long term and enduring, natural relief for I-ADD without peripheral and other side effects. That said however, their MOA may be perfectly fine for individuals with combined or primarily ADHD, of which many respond well.

So in saying this, the scenario is not all doom and gloom and nor do I imply it to be. I'm quite optimistic about alternatives that are and will be coming available in the hopefully not too distant future. I personally believe that individuals with primarily inattentive ADD will likely respond reasonably well to Alpha 2A agonists such as Tenex & Intuniv (Guanfacine) and Straterra (Atomoxetine). Additionally, "very-low-dose Ritalin (Methylphenidate)" may also be a viable alternative as very-low-dose Ritalin has been shown to exert influence over Alpha 2 receptors in the prefrontal cortex with little influence over dopamine in this and other locations. Dopamine Receptor 4 Agonists are also expected to be of clinical value, however I am not aware of any that are presently avaiable with proven clinical efficacy in treating ADHD. Even so, current literature has led me to suspect that there may be various ways of influencing the upregulation of D4 activity through modulation of NMDA activity and also cAMP, and I believe there may be a number of treatment alternatives available via these routes for those open to a bit of experimentation. I have also started to compile and document the genetic sequences which I suspect could potentially underlie I-ADD, and plan to have my genes profiled as soon as this is completed and I am able to locate a reputable and comprehensive enough vender. I believe Gene profiling may open doors which will enable for more precise measures to be employed as clinical research continues to accumulate, and as newer alternatives become available.

In writing this, I am hoping to encourage you not to be discouraged if Piracetam (and other supplements) do not initially work for you as desired. Unfortunately, research and experience imply to me that its MOA does not directly address the fundamental mechanism(s) underlying I-ADD and that as such it is not an organic solution addressing what you seek. If you would be open to other alternatives, you may however find Guanfacine, or Atomoxetine to be products available now that are worthy of additional consideration.

Kind regards,

D

Edited by dilenja, 31 May 2010 - 05:06 AM.

[unregistered_user]

you shouldn't call yourself semiretarded! You're obviously very bright and with it more than most "non retarded" people. Don't put yourself down man. I'm assuming your were tongue in cheek.

You are very aware of your cognitive weaknesses, like having to multi-task in a work environment, and your writing is very detailed with great word use. Let me bluntly state that many people, more than I realized, have all kinds of cognitive weaknesses, and they make up for it by trying that much harder.

I was a marginal student too, but mostly due to obsessive cognitive dysfunctions and low energy and fatigue problems. Consider Lions' Main for NGF (neuronal growth factor) and AlCAR, fish oil, sorry, I'm distracted by things tonight.

I wish you the best.

Thank you for the supportive words. You're right, I was trying to be jocular but my moniker also contains what I sometimes feel is a bit of truth. No disrespect was intended to those who genuinely do contend with mental retardation. In fact, my particular slice of retardation is even more deserving of sympathy because I'm retarded enough to feel impaired functionality but not so retarded as to enjoy the luxury of being unaware of it. Just my luck.

SRI,

Props to you for taking ownership of your situation and for taking an active interest in bringing yourself closer to a solution. I certainly empathize with your decision to take more control over your chemistry - your ordeal reminds me a bit of my own, which to this day continues, and which started mid 2008 when I arrived at the determination that success in conquering I-ADD is as likely to reside in personal knowledge and understanding as it is in the hands of a certified practitioner.

As you are doing now, I've tried Piracetam, and choline. I've also been afforded the opportunity to try Galantamine, Hyperzine-A, Alpha GPC, Citicoline, Vinpocetine, ALCAR, R-Lipoic Acid, Centrophenoxine, L-Pyroglutamic Acid, Oxiracetam, Aniracetam, Idebenone, Rhodiola, Ginseng, GABA, Theanine, Pycogenol, Ginkgo-Biloba, Lion's Mane, EPA, DHA, Sam-e, NADH, St. John's Wort, Pyritinol, Lithium Orotate, Modafinil, Ashwaghanda, supercritical extracts of various herbal extracts, Vaxa Attend, and supra-therapeutic doses of various amino acids and all of the most bio-available vitamins and minerals, to name a few. I've also tried the more traditional approaches consisting of Adderall and Dexedrine Spansules, and some of the less conventional approaches such as homeopathy, chiropracty, and heavy metals chelation using the cutler protocol.

In sharing this with you, it is my hope that I may be able to save you some of the time and expense I personally incurred in attempting to resolve my own issues. I very much doubt that our two chemistries are the same, but as I have been formally diagnosed with I-ADD and am quite familiar with the symptoms you describe, I feel as though there are commonalities which are at least apparent.

Of all the supplements I have tried to date, none of these in and of themselves have provided me with the feeling of transparency one would expect to be apparent within a 'normal' human facility for cognitive function. Granted, I do credit the various supplements above for enabling me to successfully work toward and finish my post-secondary education, and to make me feel 'somewhat normal' from time to time - however, in stating this it also needs to be said, that there was not a single combination of these supplements which sufficiently improved my capacity for executive function, decision making, or working memory such that I ever for an entire day felt as though I could function normally.

The 'closest' I was able to come to feeling normal has been with various combinations of the following (not taken at the same time of course); Dexedrine which I haven't taken for two years now (I had a similar enlightening experience just as you had with Vyvanse), Pyritinol (duration limited to hours at a time, and non-transparent effects), St. John's Wort (suspect due to catecholamine influence but was not without side effects), Idebenone (limited efficiecy), Rhodiola and Pycogenol (inconsistant and positive effects ameleriorated after several days of usage), and SAM-e and NADH. Unfortunately, none of these seemed to 'fully' address the fundemental mechanism(s) underlying my I-ADD and none provided any form of consistency with respect to a sustainable beneficial outcome, without side effects. The trait all of these have in common however, is that they act on Catecholamine levels (Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Epinephrine) - which stands to reason given that I-ADD is a very specific disorder believed to be primaily pertaining to Catecholamine activity. It can be no wonder then, that while there are merits to many of the other supplements and drugs I've tried, that these were of little to no 'practical' benefit to me in correcting a disorder related to catecholamines. Modafinil, Racetams, Cholinergics, Gabanergics etc etc.. may be nootropic in nature, however in my experience their efficacy has been of little therapeutic value for I-ADD related executive dysfunction.

I-ADD is a different animal than ADHD, and many researchers now readily acknowledge that it also affects different parts of the brain than ADHD: http://www.ncbi.nlm....11/?tool=pubmed.
Drugs such as Adderall and Dexedrine, which exert influence over the striatum amongst other areas, are IMO not specific and limited enough in their actions to provide a long term and enduring, natural relief for I-ADD without peripheral and other side effects. That said however, their MOA may be perfectly fine for individuals with combined or primarily ADHD, of which many respond well.

So in saying this, the scenario is not all doom and gloom and nor do I imply it to be. I'm quite optimistic about alternatives that are and will be coming available in the hopefully not too distant future. I personally believe that individuals with primarily inattentive ADD will likely respond reasonably well to Alpha 2A agonists such as Tenex & Intuniv (Guanfacine) and Straterra (Atomoxetine). Additionally, "very-low-dose Ritalin (Methylphenidate)" may also be a viable alternative as very-low-dose Ritalin has been shown to exert influence over Alpha 2 receptors in the prefrontal cortex with little influence over dopamine in this and other locations. Dopamine Receptor 4 Agonists are also expected to be of clinical value, however I am not aware of any that are presently avaiable with proven clinical efficacy in treating ADHD. Even so, current literature has led me to suspect that there may be various ways of influencing the upregulation of D4 activity through modulation of NMDA activity and also cAMP, and I believe there may be a number of treatment alternatives available via these routes for those open to a bit of experimentation. I have also started to compile and document the genetic sequences which I suspect could potentially underlie I-ADD, and plan to have my genes profiled as soon as this is completed and I am able to locate a reputable and comprehensive enough vender. I believe Gene profiling may open doors which will enable for more precise measures to be employed as clinical research continues to accumulate, and as newer alternatives become available.

In writing this, I am hoping to encourage you not to be discouraged if Piracetam (and other supplements) do not initially work for you as desired. Unfortunately, research and experience imply to me that its MOA does not directly address the fundamental mechanism(s) underlying I-ADD and that as such it is not an organic solution addressing what you seek. If you would be open to other alternatives, you may find Guanfacine, or Atomoxetine to be products available now that are worthy of additional consideration.

GL & Kind regards,

Thank you for the incredibly kind and helpful post. I'm very appreciative of both the time you took to read my thread and the time required to write such an insightful response. Clearly, you're much further along in your understanding of ADHD-PI, nootropics, neurochemistry, etc. than I so I'm delighted to have someone take the time to try to edify me...futile as that may be.

How long did you continue your Piracetam course of treatment before deciding to abandon it? What impact do you feel it had on you if any? Rather than thinking of Piracetam as a quick fix I'm regarding it as a gradual and hopefully sustainable solution to underpinning the functionality of my brain.

I'm also working on tempering my expectations with realistic outcomes. Would I love to be a mathematical genius with a photographic memory who can process strings of logic efficiently without feeling noticeable overhead on my mindshare? Absolutely. Who wouldn't? I think many of us are in pursuit of intellectual excellence and while I think it's a worthwhile endeavor I also feel it's important to not forget that we all live with certain weaknesses. I want normal. You want normal. But what is normal? Is my normal superior to yours? Maybe in some ways but perhaps not. Normal is a tough determination to make. I will continue experimenting but will take your advice and exercise self-restraint by not going supplement/nootropic/rx crazy. This is just an interesting undertaking in self-improvement for me. I hope I discover an effective remedy for my perceived shortcomings but if I don't, I'll still be grateful for the faculties I do posses as being mildly retarded does have some anxiolytic benefits.

Thanks again!

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 31 May 2010 - 05:25 AM.

[unregistered_user]

you shouldn't call yourself semiretarded! You're obviously very bright and with it more than most "non retarded" people. Don't put yourself down man. I'm assuming your were tongue in cheek.

You are very aware of your cognitive weaknesses, like having to multi-task in a work environment, and your writing is very detailed with great word use. Let me bluntly state that many people, more than I realized, have all kinds of cognitive weaknesses, and they make up for it by trying that much harder.

I was a marginal student too, but mostly due to obsessive cognitive dysfunctions and low energy and fatigue problems. Consider Lions' Main for NGF (neuronal growth factor) and AlCAR, fish oil, sorry, I'm distracted by things tonight.

I wish you the best.

I wanted to acknowledge your advice too. It's worth quoting as I think it's important for us all to keep in mind. Thanks again! Incidentally, your endorsement for Lion's Mane, ALCAR, and fish oil becomes suspect when you succumb to distraction mid-sentence like that (kidding of course - I've heard good things about ALCAR and fish oil...especially with Piracetam.) Those are on my list of things to incorporate eventually...once I isolate the effects of Piracetam.

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 31 May 2010 - 05:41 AM.

[sawyoushine]

I am also on a personal conquest to manage my diagnosed I-ADHD. It has destroyed so many chances at a better life.. can't excel in academics and my social life is almost non existant. Although I do have a decent job, however, since my suprevisor knows of my cognitive short commings he has put his neck on the line quite a few times for me. I can't expect my next boss to be so understanding. I think obviously we must start with the basics: Diet and exercise. As tough as it is to get motivated, this is our life we are talking about and we must do what's necessary in order to keep us from sinking into that god awful abyss called depression. Keep it up, I'm interested in seeing your developments!

[unregistered_user]

I am also on a personal conquest to manage my diagnosed I-ADHD. It has destroyed so many chances at a better life.. can't excel in academics and my social life is almost non existant. Although I do have a decent job, however, since my suprevisor knows of my cognitive short commings he has put his neck on the line quite a few times for me. I can't expect my next boss to be so understanding. I think obviously we must start with the basics: Diet and exercise. As tough as it is to get motivated, this is our life we are talking about and we must do what's necessary in order to keep us from sinking into that god awful abyss called depression. Keep it up, I'm interested in seeing your developments!

Good luck in your search! Thank you for the kind words. Please feel free to contribute to this thread as you explore treatment possibilities.


Day 4:

Times: 10:30AM (1.52g Piracetam / 310mg Choline Bitartrate) 4:00PM (1.52g P / 310mg CB) 10:45PM (1.52 g P / 310mg CB)
Total Daily Dosage: 4.56g Piracetam / 620mg Choline Bitartrate
Effects: As usual I can feel the onset of each dose I take. I’ve noticed that after taking piracetam + choline bitartrate that I’ll begin yawning. This normally lasts for maybe 30 minutes to an hour. I don’t necessarily feel tired but I’m curious to know what the yawning indicates. Too high a dose? Not enough choline?

After my 4PM dose I really went into overdrive. Day 4 was significant for me because I felt energetic and alert. I was on point and moving with a sense of urgency and purpose throughout my working day. I felt motivated and took extra initiative. I still made some stupid mistakes throughout the day so apparently piracetam doesn’t make one infallible. Either that or I just haven’t taken it long enough

I like to take a late night does at between 10PM-11PM to see how Piracetam impacts my sleep and hopefully carry some over with me to the next morning. Ever since day 1 I noticed piracetam makes getting out of bed much more difficult than usual. I just feel so ensconced in my slumber. When I do open my eyes I have an odd alertness as if part of me thinks “if I have to get up now....I can...but why don’t I just stay sleeping a bit longer”. I don’t feel groggy upon rising. Piracetam just makes me very comfortable in bed I guess. My dreams have changed but I can’t pinpoint the differences just yet. I notice that it’s difficult for me to recall them. I’m left with the distinct impression that they’re more elaborate and complex than usual but I can’t remember the details once I’ve woken up.

I'm still feeling very optimistic about taking Piracetam and am eager to begin combining it with other nootropics that I think might compound it's effects. I haven't taken a single Adderral or Ritalin since I stopped cold turkey a few days before my Piracetam experiment and so far I'm having no regrets.

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 01 June 2010 - 05:30 PM.

[unregistered_user]

Day 5 (Tuesday):

Times: 11AM (1.52g Piracetam / 310mg Choline Bitartrate) 4:00PM (1.52g P / 310mg CB) 9:30PM(1.52 g P / 310mg CB)
Total Daily Dosage: 4.56g Piracetam / 620mg Choline Bitartrate
Effects: I foresee my updates on piracetam becoming shorter as I think that I’ve documented the first week’s noticeable effects completely. I will however add that today I noticed increased talkativeness (which I liked) and less social anxiety. I was more outgoing and conversational and I feel comfortable attributing those changes to piracetam seeing as it’s the only drug I’m taking. That’s it for this update.

[unregistered_user]

Day 6 (Wednesday):

Times: 10:30AM (1.52g Piracetam / 310mg Choline Bitartrate) 8:00PM (1.52g P / 310mg CB) 11PM(1.52 g P / 310mg CB)
Total Daily Dosage: 4.56g Piracetam / 620mg Choline Bitartrate
Effects: To elaborate on yesterday’s post, I am still noticing a positive change in my sociability and am feeling less inhibited. In fact, I’m think I may even begin to favor the opposite end of the spectrum as I’m feeling more outspoken and perhaps even a little confrontational (when the situation warrants it). Not that I was ever a pushover before. I’ve always been someone who speaks his mind but I’m noticing a certain candor in my behavior that I might’ve lacked before. Right now the changes are so new and minimal that’s that these observations might be more placebo than anything, but somehow I think not...as these past few days have felt different to me. I’ve felt more at ease conversing with strangers.

I’ve also experienced some irritability but this may be non-piracetam related. As human beings affected by the stimuli around us we are all prone to natural human responses and my aggravation may be the result of circumstance rather than piracetam. In the mall, a man made a comment to me as he passed (he thought I was looking at his girlfriend) so I turned on my heel and stared them down as they walked away. He kept looking back at me so I decided to pursue them into several stores in the mall but never directly made contact. Just made them aware of my presence. His initial contact and body language to me was threatening but rather than shrinking away despite him being larger and in better shape I was feeling excited about the possibility of a confrontation. Again, this isn’t entirely uncharacteristic of me but I felt a certain anger well within myself that provided me with the confidence to stalk him for a bit. Could he have kicked my ass? Quite possibly, but I was prepared to have a crack at him. We’ll see if I notice any other effects along these lines from Piracetam. To provide context, I haven’t been in a fistfight since my sophomore year in high school which was 6 years or so ago.

I’ve also noticed some minor changes in my thinking processes. I am decorating my apartment and was attempting to think creatively about placement, selection, colors, etc of different ornamental and functional items I was considering purchasing. I found this to be a bit easier for me than normal.

Again, these changes are all so new and minute that it’s difficult to fully credit piracetam for them. I haven’t been remade or experienced anything completely transformational at this point but I do feel safe in concluding that small and beneficial changes are gradually occurring. Oh, and my short term memory might have gotten a tiny boost as well. So much for a shorter update! After this post I feel pretty good about recording any of the changes I observed during my first week taking piracetam and choline bitartrate. Tomorrow will be day 7 which marks the end of the first week. We’ll see how working a double shift goes.

[dilenja]

SRI, I've really enjoyed your updates and I'm pleased to hear your progress with Piracetam continues. I've noticed similar inhibitions when taking certain glutaminergics, and fortunately so far there haven't been any regrets, lol. Mostly I would speak up and say things which after consideration I'd have said anyway, but I found it quite novel (and worrisome at first) to carry on conversations so unadulterated. It was almost akin to me as improv without a properly functioning filter, being at the mercy of whim with no afterthought for introspection. I certainly suspect my I-ADD chemistry to be a contributor to this phenomenon, and think again that perhaps D4 could be safely implicated as well (http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/3/1149).

My experience with Piracetam has likewise been one of trial and error. My first few months with Piracetam in October 2008 were vivid and memorable, and that year in and of itself was fairly spectacular academically. I found that given Piracetam, Idebenone, Alpha-GPC, and a properly good dopaminergic substance (St. John's Wort at the time), I could create a window of such fluid recall that I could actually visualize the pages of texts and notes while writing exams. During a macro final in my second semester that year, there was a particularly challenging question I had no hope of resolving intuitively, but because I recognized the question as an example problem taken from text I was somehow able to visualize the text-solution clear as the page it had been type-cast on, and copy the numbers literally figure for figure from my mind's eye to the exam.

This was pretty typical for me, but it only occurred during the 'window'. I utilized this regimen from October until May of 2009 plus off and on until January of 2010, and feel that Piracetam was the clench contributor to the combo's success. It's Achilles heal, at least for me anyway, has always been that in the absence of a good dopaminergic Piracetam's effects largely are lost on me. There are still some positive aspects I notice while taking it, such as increased verbal fluency and mental stamina, mild anxiolytic effects, and smooth thought processes. However, without adopaminergic I feel there is a lack of continuity from one day to the next, and although I may be quite functional living in the moment, the pieces feel a lot like a blurring stream of thoughts each one indifferentiable from the rest…

As for long term effects, I really couldn't say for certain… I feel as though I am in a better place than I was two years ago, however I've taken so many substances during this time it would be difficult for me to attribute any progress to Piracetam in particular. I discontinued Piracetam in January because I grew wary of its effects without a 'good' Dopaminergic. I too was seeking an alternative to AMP and traditional prescriptions, and had initially thought of St. John's Wort as an ideal candidate. I really didn't have much of an inkling at that point, so I just decided to go for it. At times SJW felt really good, and on the best days the combo reminded me a lot of AMP (Some researchers even suspect a similar MOA to that of one belonging to AMP (vesicular release) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1574978/). The sheer amount of chemicals it influenced was problematic however, and I had to be really inventive with my dosing such that the (perceived) heaviness of serotonin would pass while the tail end of dopamine remained. Strangely enough, I found with my regimen that abrupt discontinuation of SJW 36 hours in advance could create a brief window of clarity where I could perform pretty much as I needed to. As you might imagine this was a fairly convoluted process, and In January I decided this was not transparent enough for me for everyday functionality and I went back to the drawing board looking for another dopaminergic solution, discontinuing Piracetam.

Since then I've maintained a modest regimen of other supplements, and I'm now focusing moreso on finding a properly good catecholaminergic as for me this seems to be the central piece of the puzzle I am missing. I think Piracetam is an interesting drug, and if I had a more 'typical' non-ADD brain chemistry I would seriously give consideration (and more research) to taking it again. Knowing now that glutamate seems to be so highly implicated in I-ADD, and seeing as this is a primary mechanism of Piracetam, I think there could be insight gleaned in learning more about Piracetam's potential effects on this relationship.

Cheers

Edited by dilenja, 03 June 2010 - 08:21 PM.

[sawyoushine]

ADHD is often diagnosed by health professionals who form their opinion by observing your behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests, or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. The problem with this is there are many other problems that have the same symptoms of ADHD. Many people, because of not knowing, settle for ADHD as a diagnosis before looking at everything. There are also many medical, biological, emotional and mental conditions that mimic ADHD also. I'm just trying to look at this the most sensible way possible because it is a very dibilitating thing to live with, yet it is invisible to most people. It is beginning to break my spirit, honestly. I'm just wondering if anyone diagnosed with inattentive ADHD has gotten any blood work or brain scans done as opposed to looking for awnsers in supplements or medication, not that I'm totally against these things..I just feel other avenues should be considered and that meds and supplements should be the last line of deffense.

[unregistered_user]

Day 7 (Thursday):

Times: 10:30AM (1.52g Piracetam / 310mg Choline Bitartrate) 8:00PM (1.52g P / 310mg CB) 11PM (1.52 g P / 310mg CB)
Total Daily Dosage: 4.56g Piracetam / 620mg Choline Bitartrate

Effects: This update concludes the end of my first week taking Piracetam. I noticed in the beginning the effects were subtle (save for the time I doubled the dosage) but noticeable nonetheless. So far it hasn't given rise to any negative side effects so I will most certainly continue taking it and experimenting with different dosages as well as combining it with other nootropics and adaptogens.

The most noticeable impact Piracetam had on me that day happened after I took my last dose. I was on the phone with a friend for over 2 hours and although I had already worked an 11-hour shift and was at home relaxing and lying in bed, I found my linguistic fluidity and ability to reason both firing on all cylinders when I otherwise would've been collapsed and ready to pass out.

After a week the effects seem to be tapering off. I have noticed mild bouts of fatigue and plan to experiment by adding ALCAR w/ ALA, rhodiola, and perhaps a few others. I'm not convinced the effects are forever lost as others have documented a waning period only later to discover future efficacy. I have nothing to lose by continuing and Piracetam seems to have made an obvious reduction in my brain fog. It hasn't eliminated it but I can safely say I've observed an improvement. For those following the updates, I'm not taking any other supplements or drugs besides the choline supplement that many regard as a requisite when taking Piracetam. I also don't consume caffeine, alcohol or nicotine and eat reasonably healthy with a moderately active lifestyle as I'm on my feet all day at work.

Due to my work schedule I can't promise daily updates but I will make it a point to return and update this thread time permitting.

Dilenja, thanks again for contributing to the thread in a meaningful way. It's always a pleasure to read your posts. For ADHD-PI sufferers, do you think a glutamate supplement could alleviate symptoms?

Sawyoushine, you make an important point and it's one that I've often considered myself. My ADHD-PI diagnosis is based on my perceived symptoms and is a self-diagnosis although I did complete that ADD clinical trial and my pdoc did determine that my symptoms were consistent with someone who suffered from ADD. I've never had any brain scans done (how conclusive are those?) and all of blood/liver tests came back just fine.

Your remark reminds me of this quote: "He who treats himself has a fool for a patient".

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 05 June 2010 - 09:10 PM.

[stablemind]

http://www.sid.ir/En...2001;5;17;23;27

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15071842

http://journals.tums...uscript_id=3734

[MoodyBlue]

If you are benefitting from Piracetam, you may like Noopept even better. It is a derivative of Piracetam. I've used it and it helps more with focus and cognition. There's info on Noopept on these forums including here: http://www.imminst.o...o...&hl=noopept.

If you ever use amphetamines (that's what's in Adderall) with racetams make sure you use far less than you would use without the racetams. Racetams make the neurons much more "sensitive" to the effect of amphetamines so you don't want to be in danger of overamping by taking the ususal dosage of the amphetamines.

PharmaGaba might help with the hyperactivity since it is an inhibitory neurotransmitter which balances out the excitatory ones. Check out youtubes video on it.

[unregistered_user]

http://www.sid.ir/En...2001;5;17;23;27

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15071842

http://journals.tums...uscript_id=3734

Therefore, much precaution should be considered in administration of piracetam in children with developmental retardation or similar conditions.

It's just an alias man, I'm not actually semi-retarded!

That and I'm also not a child.

[stablemind]

http://www.sid.ir/En...2001;5;17;23;27

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15071842

http://journals.tums...uscript_id=3734

Therefore, much precaution should be considered in administration of piracetam in children with developmental retardation or similar conditions.

It's just an alias man, I'm not actually semi-retarded!

That and I'm also not a child.

that includes those with attentional problems

[unregistered_user]

So after just over a week on Piracetam, I’ve had a chance to observe both it’s positive and negative effects on me however I still believe I’ve only experienced just the beginnings of it’s positive influence on my cognition.

Days 8, 9 and 10 revealed to me what so many other users have lamented; possible homeostasis. Either that or the bell-shaped response curve. My doses have been consistent so I’m inclined to assume the former. Perhaps my brain is regulating itself in someway making piracetam affect me differently. Strangely though, I’m still noticing the positive effects as well as now some of the negative ones. I notice more general fatigue and even a slowness that progresses to a very mild apathy. Much like the original state of mind I was attempting to remedy by taking Piracetam. It seems that after the 7-day hump the consistency of Piracetam’s effects has become erratic.

After working a 10 hour day I’m able to think clearly at 2AM and remain relatively alert so I can tell Piracetam still has a positive bearing on me. Isochroma and others have documented some discouraging results occurring both during and after the first week and have suggested that cumulative effects are yet to be felt if one can persist through the less than ideal stage, one which I suspect I’m currently in.

I’m no worse off than when I began taking Piracetam 11 days ago (May 28, 2010) so I might as well continue with it. I intend for it to remain one of the cornerstones of my regimen as I continue slowly testing different nootropics, herbs, adaptogens, etc.

I’ve noticed some neck tension and brain fog which makes me think I should try backing down my dosage a bit. I’m currently taking 2-3 1.5g doses per day and am planning on taking 800mg-1g from now on. I think this is my body’s way of telling me that the initial attack dosing phase while effective before is no longer necessary. Time to recalibrate.

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 08 June 2010 - 06:09 AM.