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working memory questions


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#1 penisbreath

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 12:51 PM


hey, i feel like i have certain misconceptions about 'thinking' and its mechanisms which i would like to have clarified if possible ... please bear with me, i'll try my best to be as clear as possible, and i apologise if this stuff is obvious. i have heard that a lot of psych patients misevaluate their own cognition and i feel like i am totally guilty of having certain irrational biases.

first a little background: i have been seeing a psychiatrist due to severe depression. i don't really have an official diagnosis though it seems to be along the lines of atypical depression, ocd and what i am certain is ADD. the reason i mentioned ADD is because i feel like i would often have to deliberate incite anxiety and place myself in pressured situations in order to focus, which feels like it eventually evolved into OCD.

the first major problem i noticed just before my depression hit was that while trying to write, i couldn't really 'complete' my ideas. it's like my train of thought would just collapse or stop before i could fully grasp what i was trying to think. this doesn't apply to everyday stuff, but more complex thought. so my first question is: is this an example of working memory? my psychiatrist has run me through some basic exercises which to him indicate my working memory is okay, but i still have difficulty sustaining and trying to organise my thought during writing tasks. he thinks im being fussy but i just tend to stumble a lot and find my ideas only end up like half-way finished.

okay.... secondly, how does multitasking come into this? i used to work as a writer and often found that i could revise sentences in my head before they hit the page. i was a perfectionist and would never really just let it 'flow' but would constantly pull myself out of what i was doing, mentally edit as i went along etc etc. in the end, this became self-defeating because i fussed over every single minute detail. i found i didn't have to break my sentences up much, but could crystallise and compress my ideas easily. my psychiatrist said this requires much more mental effort than just letting what you write spill out.

strangely, i have found that taking Ritalin evokes a very similar state in me - i 'feel' more intelligent because my thoughts are more vivid, quick, and i feel like i can mentally manipulate information with greater ease, but at the same time it is really hard to focus on reading for example because i am constantly pulling myself out of what im doing to think etc.

i used to feel like this ability to think quickly and while engaged in other tasks somehow signified intelligence, but are focus and free thought opposed in a way? if one is fully engaged in a task, should one not really be able to ruminate on that task at the same time? is this why stimulants, when working, 'suppress' peripheral thought? that's the reaction i have to dexamphetamine basically - i feel more calm, collected, and almost empty-headed in a way

i feel like ive developed a certain bias and have become very precious about my ability to think freely, if that makes sense. i find that a lot of the medication ive tried does suppress thought (and worry) but should this be an end-goal in a way if one wants to be more productive and fully engaged in tasks? is thinking more a process that should occur during the task of writing itself?

i am just in the process of trying to choose medication which is why this is difficult. i have found that SSRI's tend to produce a lot of brain fog and make my thinking murky rather than clear, which just worsens things. but then ill mistakenly think something like ritalin is making me more intelligent. so what's the best what to evaluate where you are or should be at? sorry if this is a bit washy.. i feel like i sound vaguely retarded, but im really tired and cant be bothered trying to write like an intelligent human being. if anything needs clarifying, please dont be afraid to ask me

#2 NDM

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:48 PM

try to think of intelligence as the ability to switch at will between different modes of information processing (e.g. focused thinking; free-floating thinking; introspection; outward attention; recollection; prediction, etc), rather than assume that one mode is better or signifies higher intelligence; all are needed (think of them as resources or tools in the mind's toolbox). The trick is to control your toolbox instead of letting it control you.

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#3 NR2(x)

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:40 AM

Hi Lucky
Its good to see some users are trying to understand the broarder/General system, that they are attempting to manipulate for cognitive gain. Where one limits working memory is a very important question but largely academic in that our whole being and perception thereof and perception of that etc is based in a world of working memory. There are many theories that intergrate with working memory in different ways. I feel like Ive got working memmory issues today and cant intergrate an answer that does justice to the complixity of the system. Basically the benefits you describe from ritalin are associated with Dopamine 1 in the frontal cortx and the negatives are associated with dopamine 2 in the central executive. Working memmory is mainly a function of different subunits of the nmda receptor and there effects on long term potentiation and long term depression. Increases in working memory are attributable to increasing the synatpic concentration of these recepotors while decreasing the evil extrasynatpic counterparts.
Serotonin will do that in that it decreases frontal synatpic nmda'rs.

Your train of thought collapsing is probally attributable to insufficient working memmory between frontal and central sections or between left and right hemispheres depending on the processes involved. Exercise, antioxidants, and goal oreinted behavour can really help.
Unfortunately there arent any clean dopamine 1 drugs that are sold/prescribed to the public. They might exist tho.....


How well do you understand your postion in society and your societies position within the world?

I was just reading this post,seems concordant with my understanding http://www.imminst.o...=1

#4 penisbreath

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:12 PM

Hi Lucky
Its good to see some users are trying to understand the broarder/General system, that they are attempting to manipulate for cognitive gain. Where one limits working memory is a very important question but largely academic in that our whole being and perception thereof and perception of that etc is based in a world of working memory. There are many theories that intergrate with working memory in different ways. I feel like Ive got working memmory issues today and cant intergrate an answer that does justice to the complixity of the system. Basically the benefits you describe from ritalin are associated with Dopamine 1 in the frontal cortx and the negatives are associated with dopamine 2 in the central executive. Working memmory is mainly a function of different subunits of the nmda receptor and there effects on long term potentiation and long term depression. Increases in working memory are attributable to increasing the synatpic concentration of these recepotors while decreasing the evil extrasynatpic counterparts.
Serotonin will do that in that it decreases frontal synatpic nmda'rs.

Your train of thought collapsing is probally attributable to insufficient working memmory between frontal and central sections or between left and right hemispheres depending on the processes involved. Exercise, antioxidants, and goal oreinted behavour can really help.
Unfortunately there arent any clean dopamine 1 drugs that are sold/prescribed to the public. They might exist tho.....


How well do you understand your postion in society and your societies position within the world?

I was just reading this post,seems concordant with my understanding http://www.imminst.o...=1


thank you so much for your reply! i just re-read my post and it doesn't sound quite as incoherent as i imagined while writing it. also i'm sorry to hear you are having difficulties yourself. do you mind me asking what your background is? are/were you involved in the sciences?

you are right - working memory is our gateway to the world, which i guess is why depression makes me feel so subhuman at times. i've also been diagnosed with depersonalization; i'm still questioning the extent to which it's a diagnosis in and of itself or just a symptom, but what's really curious is that depersonalization patients were found to suffer from distinct cognitive impairments, particularly w/r/t to working memory.

i think depression and anxiety make me question abilities that once came to me ease. when my 'train of thought would collapse', it was partly also because my thinking was a lot slower - i almost had to manually think out each part of an idea. today i drank coffee (which i rarely do) and my thinking felt so much quicker that it wasn't like thinking at all really - ideas just came to me more intuitively and fully formed.

just a couple of questions regarding what you posted:

Basically the benefits you describe from ritalin are associated with Dopamine 1 in the frontal cortx and the negatives are associated with dopamine 2 in the central executive.



so what does D2 in the central executive involve? i had a similar reaction to low doses of Memantine, a D2 agonist - i could think very clearly and freely, i.e. i saw great gains in my 'free will', but at the complete expense of any focus. i experienced an almost hypomanic flow of ideas. it was an interesting experience, but not something that would be very conducive to working.

you also said:

Increases in working memory are attributable to increasing the synatpic concentration of these recepotors while decreasing the evil extrasynatpic counterparts.
Serotonin will do that in that it decreases frontal synatpic nmda'rs.



so is serotonin a good or bad thing in this scenario? thanks!

#5 chrono

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 09:43 AM

Basically the benefits you describe from ritalin are associated with Dopamine 1 in the frontal cortx and the negatives are associated with dopamine 2 in the central executive. Working memmory is mainly a function of different subunits of the nmda receptor and there effects on long term potentiation and long term depression. Increases in working memory are attributable to increasing the synatpic concentration of these recepotors while decreasing the evil extrasynatpic counterparts.
Serotonin will do that in that it decreases frontal synatpic nmda'rs.

Your train of thought collapsing is probally attributable to insufficient working memmory between frontal and central sections or between left and right hemispheres depending on the processes involved.

Just wanted to point out that this explanation needs a lot of revision. Ritalin is a reuptake inhibitor for both DA and NE. Both of these modulate attention to some degree. I don't think it's accurate to say that D1 is positive and D2 is negative with regard to working memory. In fact, extra D1 stimulation in the PFC can impair working memory in some respects. Ritalin would affect all dopamine receptor subtypes, and I don't think there's enough current research to say how each one affects WM.

The central executive is a cognitive construct in the theory of how memory works, not an area of the brain which contains receptors.

Working memory is certainly not "mainly" a function of NMDA receptors, they're just involved.

The mental effects lucky pierre describes sound much more attributable to attentional problems of some kind, than somehow saying that a bottleneck in working memory means the brain jumps from task to task. WM may be connected to attention (and may be reduced in ADD), but I really don't think it's the causation of lack of focus.

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#6 penisbreath

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 12:57 PM

Thanks for your reply Chrono. It's a little difficult to wrap my head around exactly what I want.

I think my intuition is partly correct - that stimulants restrict free-thinking at the expense of maybe improving task-related working memory? I have heard that too much NE in the prefrontal cortex can restrict creativity, and I have found for example that when I was experiencing too much adrenergic stimulation on nicotine, I could focus intensely on detail in music, etc. without really being able to mentally break free from what I was doing. likewise, it becomes easier to sit down and work out my ideas through the process of writing, but it becomes more difficult to conjure and manipulate that information before committing it to paper. i functioned a lot more 'automatically'. coffee produced a similar, albeit less intense reaction, which was actually welcome, given how mentally sluggish i've felt lately.

my experience with stimulants is pretty limited - i've tried dexedrine a couple of times, but just felt foggy and euphoric, and i assume my nicotine 'overdosing' didn't really provide an accurate picture of things, so maybe i have the wrong impression.

but i would like a way to maybe improve my focus and free-thinking without the intense attention-regulation that seems to come from stimulants. when i tried memantine, what i found was that i could suddenly think with incredible calm and clarity (before the stupefying, dissociative effects set in), but again i'm not sure how useful that would be for my purposes, given that there's a certain anxiety and urgency and searching involved in ideation.




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