14 replies to this topic

[Mindweaver]

What's the difference? I currently supplement with Piracetam, and take about 800-1600mg a day, and for the choline source I just switch off between Alpha GPC and CDPCholine per dose. Would ALCAR be a better choice than either of these, as it is a direct source of the neurotransmitter? Or is it better to work with it's precursors because then your body can naturally produce it on its own?

[babcock]

What's the difference? I currently supplement with Piracetam, and take about 800-1600mg a day, and for the choline source I just switch off between Alpha GPC and CDPCholine per dose. Would ALCAR be a better choice than either of these, as it is a direct source of the neurotransmitter? Or is it better to work with it's precursors because then your body can naturally produce it on its own?

Anecdotal experience: When I started piracetam I took it with CDP-Choline, after two weeks I would develop afternoon headaches. I then started taking it with ALCAR and have not experienced a headache yet. I think the synergy between ALCAR and piracetam is great.

Good posts from chrono here towards the end and here scattered throughout pages 8 and 9 about ALCAR affecting 4-5 mechanisms realted to piracetam.

[chrono]

Hmm, I don't think it's accurate to say that ALCAR is a direct source of acetylcholine. It's one of the substances (along with glucose + derivatives) that end up contributing the acetyl group to ACh. Choline precursors obviously conribute the choline. Upping the supply of either one of these should increase ACh (though several variables make it more complex than this).

For this application, I think it comes down to personal preference. Some people seem to find CDP or GPC gives them a noticeable nootropic boost on their own. And some (like me, and babcock) find some downsides. I personally like ALCAR because it has more of a nootropic effect, better synergy with piracetam, and works better to alleviate piracetam's ACh-depletion issues. Here is another good thread involving some of the benefits of GPC/CDP. Because they all have a lot of beneficial mechanisms on paper, I'd take them both together if I could (and some people do), but I get bad tension headaches if I combine them.

Still working on that ALCAR thread Lots of interconnected mechanisms, and some might only apply to developing, aged or damaged brains. So I'm trying to work through as many papers as I can so I don't make too many erroneous statements about why it seems to be effective.

Edited by chrono, 22 June 2010 - 07:48 PM.

[Mindweaver]

Well I'm only supplementing with anything to recover from DXM-induced memory/visuo-spatial issues . . I used to suffer from depersonalization as well, and I've found I to get the headaches you're describing from GPC/CDP.. Would you suggest ALCAR? What are the long-term negatives, if any, that you've found? What are its main mechanism of action in comparison to GPC/CDP, and what's its general "'wrap?" Better memory/brain function/sharper vision? Can you just give me some general information on the comparisons you've made through your experimentation/research?

[chrono]

I would definitely suggest ALCAR, especially if you're getting headaches from GPC/CDP. I haven't found any downsides to it, yet. I've never heard a definitive answer as to whether any of the mechanisms downregulate, but I have at least one study that shows benefits after chronic administration. And lots of people use it pretty constantly, it's pretty benign for most people and goes well with almost everything else. I think the only downside worth worrying about is an increase in anxiety if you're prone to that kind of thing, so start cautiously, I guess.

As I said, the biggest difference with GPC/CDP with regard to piracetam supplementation is that it increases ACh from the other half of the substrates than all the other choline precursors. So it won't increase choline levels per se, which might be a cause of your headache? (lots of discussion in this area uses "choline" and "acetylcholine" somewhat interchangeably, so I'm not entirely certain what causes these headaches).

Other than that, there are a few important differences. CDP choline also serves as a precursor to a substance utilized in the membranes of all cells. GPC and CDP both increase dopamine to some extent, though I haven't heard any anecdotes suggesting it's an effective treatment for dopaminergic deficiencies like ADD, so I would guess that it's not very significant. And they both have several other mechanisms which are very useful for age-related cellular and neurological dysfunction.

ALCAR increases energy utilization in cells, through an effect on mitochondria and possible utilization of alternative energy sources. And one of the cooler things it can do is increase release of NGF, as well as cell sensitivity to NGF (meaning you need less to do the same thing). But a lot of its mechanisms have only been studied in certain models, like aging or neurological damage, so it's somewhat difficult to predict which of these are relevant in a generally healthy adult.

And I really don't know which of these would be better for your application. I read the DXM psychosis thread, and I don't think there was any solid data (or even speculation) about what kind of actual damage might be done to the brain (or if it's entirely psychological), so it's hard to guess what might fix it. ALCAR has been studied for treatment of neuropathy, and the NGF mechanisms might do something?

If you haven't, I'd do some more reading here on neurogenesis. There are probably half a dozen really good threads discussing how to heal drug-induced injury to the brain, with some pretty good speculative suggestions. Searching for MDMA might bring up most of them, since it's usually what's being discussed. Ashwagandha might be worth trying. You might want to hop on some general brain-health supps, like fish oil, magnesium, and EGCG (green tea extract) as well.

[Mindweaver]

Damn, chrono, you've really done your research lol. Thanks a lot for your replies, just another question: Is ALCAR a substitute for choline supplements? Or should I still be taking like, CDP/GPC with ALCAR and Piracetam? In addition, how do they synergize with Hydergine added to the mix? And is ALCAR to ACh as 5-HTP is to Serotonin? Because I've heard bad things about daily use of 5-HTP and downregulation of Serotonin receptors, wondering if the same thing occurs with ALCAR?

[chrono]

Whether ALCAR is a substitute can only be determined by how it affects you. If it ameliorates any side effects you get from piracetam, then yes. If you don't respond well to ALCAR itself, then you may require addition supplementation from the choline side. There's nothing to say that you can't take a choline source with ALCAR. But if the ones you're using are giving you headaches, I don't think there's enough additional benefit to outweigh that. Aside from that, I would only add in a lesser choline source like lecithin or choline bitartrate if you find ALCAR or ALCAR + piracetam doesn't work for you.

I haven't had a chance to try hydergine yet personally. A lot of people say it's pretty awesome, so I would guess it synergizes quite well with piracetam/ALCAR. They seem to stack well with most nootropics, really. Be aware that ergot derivatives like hydergine have a risk of heart valve fibrosis attached to them, and probably moreso with heavy or chronic usage. If it works for me, I'm only going to use it on an as-needed basis, and pretty occasionally at that. If your only interest is in healing whatever damage you sustained, I'm not sure if hydergine is a good bet given that risk.

Don't know much about the serotonin system, sorry (HA, we just got a bunch of new smilies). But yeah, I saw enough bad things said about 5-HTP that I didn't bother to read much more about it. I doubt ALCAR causes anything like that effect...it's been found to be very therapeutic in models of aging, increasing and protecting the function of the cholinergic system. If it does anything negative, I imagine endogenous ACh production might be downregulated slightly over time to account for the enhanced release ALCAR causes. I haven't seen any mention of this, and never noticed any side effects at all after ceasing usage, but it's possible. I highly doubt is does anything as unscrupulous as downregulating receptors.

[Mindweaver]

Ah, ok. Well, as far as the Hydergine stuff goes, I was only going to use it for a bit of time to see if it improved my long-term memory, short-term memory and metal imaging. Would you really recommend against it? I don't know much about fibrosis, in short; what is it? From what you've read, what is considered chronic use? I was planning on taking one tablet a day with Piracetam until I ran out of it.. and depending on how I felt, either not buy anymore and just continue with Piracetam, or buy more. But now I don't think I'll be buying anymore.. would the 30 tablets that it comes with cause fibrosis?

[Mindweaver]

And are there precautions you can take to avoid the fibrosis? Like cycling, or supplements? I'm thinking about not using it at all right now, and having to deal with the fact that I wasted 50$ >.<

[chrono]

My layman's understanding of fibrosis is that it's the formation of fibrous tissue in an organ, that can replace normal tissue or otherwise interfere with normal functioning. Sorry, physiology isn't my strong suit. But it's not something I want happening to my heart valves

I can't answer the question about at how much usage this becomes a danger. Doing it for a month may be fine, though it would make me pretty nervous. I haven't done a good review of hydergine literature yet, but I can't quite believe that any improvement seen after a month's usage would be permanent. In other words, if it did improve your memory/etc., it would probably only be for a short time, and would need to be cycled to sustain it for any useful length of time.

In the absence of data to base such a decision on, I would be most comfortable taking it a couple times a month, say. Most of all, trying to avoid any stretches of daily usage. There are some people (especially on M&M) who take ergot derivatives more frequently (or at least used to), but I don't think there's any way to say how much damage is being done, whether it's cumulative, if damage would show up immediately or only later in life, etc.

It sounds like you're only interested in things that can cause a sustained improvement. Why? If hydergine works for you, why not use it as I describe? Depending on what it does, maybe use it strategically on special occasions when you need to do things that are particularly important/mentally taxing, or to help you make important changes to your life?

Edited by chrono, 23 June 2010 - 01:58 AM.

[Mindweaver]

Well yes, my primary hope as an outcome from taking these supplements/nootropics is a stronger grip on memory, mental imaging, and to improve my quality of life.. Not that it's really in the dumps or anything, but you'd know what I'm going through from reading through that DXM Induced Psychosis Thread. So you are suggesting that I try Hydergine, and if I'm happy with its effects, use it sparingly? Such as, very occasionally, like when I'm studying for a test or something? I've been primarily concerned with optimizing my mental capablities by the time college rolls around again.. so I have 2 months to smart-drug-steroid my brain, and that's what my focus has been for using these nootropics. I only ordered Hydergine in hopes it would improve my feelings of depersonalization, and help my memory (Long/short-term and imagery), but I am now pretty concerned with this Fibrosis thing. I might cancel my order, but Anti-Aging Systems said it shipped a few days ago..

[Mindweaver]

Would you recommend a cycling, of perhaps maybe a 1 week on, 1 week off, 1 week on, etc. of Hydergine?

[Mindweaver]

Still looking for a response to this question^

UPDATE: ALCAR + Piracetam is magically better than the choline supplements + Piracetam, at least as far as immediate effects go.

[moomoo]

What's the difference? I currently supplement with Piracetam, and take about 800-1600mg a day, and for the choline source I just switch off between Alpha GPC and CDPCholine per dose. Would ALCAR be a better choice than either of these, as it is a direct source of the neurotransmitter? Or is it better to work with it's precursors because then your body can naturally produce it on its own?

Anecdotal experience: When I started piracetam I took it with CDP-Choline, after two weeks I would develop afternoon headaches. I then started taking it with ALCAR and have not experienced a headache yet. I think the synergy between ALCAR and piracetam is great.

Good posts from chrono here towards the end and here scattered throughout pages 8 and 9 about ALCAR affecting 4-5 mechanisms realted to piracetam.

I am also getting headaches with CDP choline. I never had headaches with piracetam but started taking CDP choline for the reported dopanime benefits, have had to scale back now as the stiff neck and headaches point to too much ACH.

[freewilly101]

Does Piracetam decreases acetylcholine?