12 replies to this topic

[owls]

Hi, i've been taking taking an average of 6g piracetam with about 2100mg choline citrate (1fast400 brand unfortunately..)

and i recently purchased another bottle of 400mg ALCAR + 200mg ALA. i'm wondering if it makes sense to be taking 800mg ALCAR + 400mg ALA with the piracetam and choline.. am i getting enough choline with all of this? or could anyone explain to me how the piracetam and alcar/ala combo might synergize?

am i taking too much? thanks for any advice!!

[health_nutty]

Hi, i've been taking taking an average of 6g piracetam with about 2100mg choline citrate (1fast400 brand unfortunately..)

and i recently purchased another bottle of 400mg ALCAR + 200mg ALA. i'm wondering if it makes sense to be taking 800mg ALCAR + 400mg ALA with the piracetam and choline.. am i getting enough choline with all of this? or could anyone explain to me how the piracetam and alcar/ala combo might synergize?

am i taking too much? thanks for any advice!!

This is my laymans understanding. Piracetam increases the need to replentish acetyl-choline in the brain. So we need to do at least a few things to make this favorable.
1) Take a choline source. More expensive choline sources are supposed to be better at increasing the choline in the brain.
2) Have enough acetyl donors. ALCAR can provide the acetyl donor to create acetyl-choline and has its own nootropic benefits. Also I've seem some information that hints that acetic acid (vinegar) can also act as a acetyl donor.
3) Have enough B5 (Pantothenic acid). Pantothenic acid is used in the synthesis of coenzyme A (CoA). Coenzyme A may act as an acyl group carrier to form acetyl-CoA which is in turn need to make acetyl-choline.

Edited by health_nutty, 13 July 2010 - 11:38 PM.

[chrono]

You'll have to judge how much choline is enough based on your subjective experience. Depending on your diet (and brain), ALCAR may be good by itself, or may need additional choline supplementation. If you get weird brain fog/fatigue/irritability, you probably need more choline. If you're getting tension headaches, it's too much.

Also, we have a nootropic section here Questions about things like piracetam will be more likely to get responses there. Or honestly, will already have been answered there.

3) Have enough B5 (Pantothenic acid). Pantothenic acid is used in the synthesis of coenzyme A (CoA). Coenzyme A may act as an acyl group carrier to form acetyl-CoA which is in turn need to make acetyl-choline.

This may actually be detrimental. Coenzyme A is a potent inhibitor of the reaction of acetyl-CoA + Choline --ChAT--> ACh + CoA. So upping CoA, while providing additional substrate for synthesis of acetyl-CoA, will also inhibit forward motion of the reaction we want acetyl-CoA for in the first place. I've yet to see if CoA is generally a limiting factor in this double-reaction, but as it's the one part of the equation that's recycled continuously (at least in this context), I tend to doubt it. And an additional supply wouldn't get "used up" like acetyl groups or choline, so might stick around and hinder the other reaction for a comparably long time.

Otherwise, I think you're spot-on.

[health_nutty]

I got the info about B5 and acetylcholine from this site:
http://www.vitamins-...vitamin-b5.html

Vitamin B5 or Pantothenic acid is a water-soluble vitamin involved in the cycle of energy production in our body and is needed to make the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

[chrono]

It's definitely necessarily for the reactions, but that doesn't mean that adding more of it will increase reaction rate and products. The fact that CoA is recycled when the acetyl is stripped from Acetyl-CoA to make ACh (and so does not deplete), and the fact that CoA inhibits this reaction if present in excess (i.e. more than is necessary to then combine with the acetyl groups from ALCAR/glucose/pyruvate, which reduces the amount of inhibition), means that adding more will not increase ACh in the same way that increasing choline or ALCAR will.

I'm probably not explaining this very well. I need to get off my ass and make that ALCAR thread, even though I don't have all the full texts I want.

[health_nutty]

Interesting. So what do you think the optimal amount of B5 is?

[chrono]

Sorry, I have no idea! lol. I haven't looked at the wider implications of supplementing any of the CoA precursors, so I was only commenting based on its role in this particular reaction. My guess is that the ideal amount is right around what would be considered a "normal" or "physiological" level. If CoA is being depleted elsewhere, or a deficiency is suspected, then supplementation still might make sense. I just wouldn't do it with the sole intention of increasing ACh, as you would with the other non-recycled precursors.

[Timothy]

You'll have to judge how much choline is enough based on your subjective experience. Depending on your diet (and brain), ALCAR may be good by itself, or may need additional choline supplementation. If you get weird brain fog/fatigue/irritability, you probably need more choline. If you're getting tension headaches, it's too much.

Also, we have a nootropic section here Questions about things like piracetam will be more likely to get responses there. Or honestly, will already have been answered there.

3) Have enough B5 (Pantothenic acid). Pantothenic acid is used in the synthesis of coenzyme A (CoA). Coenzyme A may act as an acyl group carrier to form acetyl-CoA which is in turn need to make acetyl-choline.

This may actually be detrimental. Coenzyme A is a potent inhibitor of the reaction of acetyl-CoA + Choline --ChAT--> ACh + CoA. So upping CoA, while providing additional substrate for synthesis of acetyl-CoA, will also inhibit forward motion of the reaction we want acetyl-CoA for in the first place. I've yet to see if CoA is generally a limiting factor in this double-reaction, but as it's the one part of the equation that's recycled continuously (at least in this context), I tend to doubt it. And an additional supply wouldn't get "used up" like acetyl groups or choline, so might stick around and hinder the other reaction for a comparably long time.

Otherwise, I think you're spot-on.

So, in 1:1 quantities, the following is good:

800mg Piracetam
250mg Choline / 250mg Inistol (Solgar - I cannot get the choline by itself)
250mg ALCAR
And every 2nd day take Quest Mega B-100 (timed release, 100mg B5, 100mg Choline, 100mg PABA, 100ug Biotin, etc)

[chrono]

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So, in 1:1 quantities, the following is good:

800mg Piracetam
250mg Choline / 250mg Inistol (Solgar - I cannot get the choline by itself)
250mg ALCAR
And every 2nd day take Quest Mega B-100 (timed release, 100mg B5, 100mg Choline, 100mg PABA, 100ug Biotin, etc)

Not sure if you're asking for input or saying what works for you. 250mg ALCAR is a very low dose, unless you're particularly sensitive and/or trying to avoid side effects. If you're looking for some kind of appreciable synergy, I would start with 500mg ALCAR; I take about 1.6g with each dose of piracetam, as long as I don't go over 4g/day.

Edited by chrono, 15 August 2010 - 08:59 PM.

[theperfectratio]

Sorry for bumping this post up.

@chrone: Did you mean you take 1.6g ALCAR for every approx 4g piracetam? Do you use any other choline source with this combination?

[norepinephrine]

Chrono's been absent for a handful of months.

In my own experience, about a 1:2 ratio of ALCAR to piracetam works fine for me, though I rarely exceed 2.4g pira/day.

[theperfectratio]

thanks man. i was wondering if Chrono meant he takes 1.6g alcar with every 800 mg dose of piracetam. Dont think that sounds right,
Should be 1.5 for every 4 g is what he must have meant.

so do you not seem to need another choline source like Alpha GPC/choline bitartrate when youre on ALCAR?

Just confirming. Im trying to figure out my choline piracetam headaches.

[norepinephrine]

I generally eat a lot of choline-rich foods as it is, and have found that choline supplementation at almost any dosage ends up being counterproductive - i.e., by introducing brain fog and endogenous depression.

The upside of ALCAR is that, in being an indirect way to increase acetyl-choline, the dosages don't have to be quite as carefully ascertained.