16 replies to this topic

[aLurker]

I found this thread on another forum.
It basically suggests that the reward we get from understanding a concept is a natural surge of opiates in the brain. Any additional information regarding this would be much welcome.

Would a low dose Naltrexone which increases our sensitivity to opiates then also increase our thirst for knowledge and the reward associated with learning? How has LDN worked for people long-term? Any anecdotal accounts or thoughts about this?

[chrono]

This is the most interesting thought from that thread:

In drug addiction, I think opium changes in the mesolimbocortical pathway secreted by the ventral tegmental area to the nucleus accumbens dictate 'liking.' Perhaps an increase in opium means we are 'liking' new knowledge. However, there is a difference between 'liking' and 'wanting.' Dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens in the same pathway seem to dictate 'wanting.' In experiments with low doses of cocaine, cocaine addicts could not detect the effects of the low cocaine doses but significantly preferred it over a placebo. The cocaine addicts 'wanted' the cocaine but did not 'like' it because the cocaine doses were so low that they did not even subjectively know there was cocaine. So, my point is that, from research from drugs and as far as opium is concerned, perhaps only 'liking' is increased and not 'wanting.' The thirst for knowledge sounds like wanting. But, if we like, we would probably want more, so maybe its an relationship between the dopamine and opium pathways.

This was pretty much my first thought, as well. I know some people who exercise the opioid pathways pretty aggressively, and don't seem to feel like learning anything But even beyond that, I think "wanting to learn" is a much more complex structure than something like "motivation." Like, flipping a certain switch in the brain might increase reward sensation from the act of learning, as the researchers suggest—but maybe it increases reward from anything. Wanting to learn/thirst for knowledge is an interaction of several behavioral, cognitive, emotional and even philosophical systems, whereas motivation can be much more simply defined and applies to a wider range of activities.

But even if what I said is true, I think the promise for LDN in this situation might be great. If you have a desire to use your brain for learning, the positive effects on mood that LDN is said to have can't be anything but helpful in helping you achieve it. We'll have to do some research into how opioid pathways are implicated in reward and motivation, and how they might hook up with the dopamine system.

Edited by chrono, 17 July 2010 - 07:50 PM.

[aLurker]

Good post. To clarify my train of thought: LDN might increase the reward for learning and in doing so we might begin to associate learning with the rush of opiates thus increasing our thirst for knowledge by a Pavlovian response.

The relationship between "wanting" and dopamine seems to be related to estimating how much you will enjoy something. We are notoriously bad at estimating enjoyment, at least I am. So even if we up-regulate our opiate-receptors to increase enjoyment we still might not estimate the enjoyment accurately. So by underestimating the enjoyment we actually get from studying we watch TV instead and miss out on the enjoyment of acquiring knowledge. But there should be a connection between our estimate and the enjoyment since we should begin to associate studying with pleasure. It seems logical to me that the Pavlovian response should increase our estimated enjoyment and motivate us to want to study but whether or not it works in real life is another matter.

[kassem23]

Good post. To clarify my train of thought: LDN might increase the reward for learning and in doing so we might begin to associate learning with the rush of opiates thus increasing our thirst for knowledge by a Pavlovian response.

The relationship between "wanting" and dopamine seems to be related to estimating how much you will enjoy something. We are notoriously bad at estimating enjoyment, at least I am. So even if we up-regulate our opiate-receptors to increase enjoyment we still might not estimate the enjoyment accurately. So by underestimating the enjoyment we actually get from studying we watch TV instead and miss out on the enjoyment of acquiring knowledge. But there should be a connection between our estimate and the enjoyment since we should begin to associate studying with pleasure. It seems logical to me that the Pavlovian response should increase our estimated enjoyment and motivate us to want to study but whether or not it works in real life is another matter.

Very interesting idea. Some people actually use the Pavlonian conditioning methods to train themselves to "like" what they do. That is, for instance, they would read 10 pages of a book and then eat some chocolate. Then read 20 pages and then eat chocolate again. It's overly simplified but it still would make sense if one understands this in regards to reward-circuits in the brain (i.e. NAc). It would be awesome if there were a drug that could make TV seem dull and reading the history book incredibly interesting, hah.

[aLurker]

Very interesting idea. Some people actually use the Pavlonian conditioning methods to train themselves to "like" what they do. That is, for instance, they would read 10 pages of a book and then eat some chocolate. Then read 20 pages and then eat chocolate again. It's overly simplified but it still would make sense if one understands this in regards to reward-circuits in the brain (i.e. NAc). It would be awesome if there were a drug that could make TV seem dull and reading the history book incredibly interesting, hah.

Indeed. Though most of us, myself included, seem to do the opposite by rewarding our TV-watching by eating chocolate and junk food while we watch. Something to think about.

[kassem23]

Very interesting idea. Some people actually use the Pavlonian conditioning methods to train themselves to "like" what they do. That is, for instance, they would read 10 pages of a book and then eat some chocolate. Then read 20 pages and then eat chocolate again. It's overly simplified but it still would make sense if one understands this in regards to reward-circuits in the brain (i.e. NAc). It would be awesome if there were a drug that could make TV seem dull and reading the history book incredibly interesting, hah.

Indeed. Though most of us, myself included, seem to do the opposite by rewarding our TV-watching by eating chocolate and junk food while we watch. Something to think about.

Exactly, explains teenagers addiction to television versus books. Could be cool if in the future teenagers would have IV hook-up of small dosages of an dopamine releasing agent whenever they finished reading something, stimulating the reward-circuits in the brain and then facilitating an interest in learning and reading. Nice thread.

[Wylie]

I know some people who exercise the opioid pathways pretty aggressively, and don't seem to feel like learning anything

This might help explain why chronic opiate users aren't interested in learning anything. If those pathways are triggered by other (much more potent) means, why would they they be interested in other means of stimulating those pathways?

[aLurker]

I know some people who exercise the opioid pathways pretty aggressively, and don't seem to feel like learning anything

This might help explain why chronic opiate users aren't interested in learning anything. If those pathways are triggered by other (much more potent) means, why would they they be interested in other means of stimulating those pathways?

Yep, I took some cough-medicine with ethylmorphine once. Just a few ml of that and I felt totally at peace and happy while doing absolutely nothing. I could stare at wallpaper and still feel like a million bucks. "Happiness comes from within"

It felt so good I'll never take any opiates again unless required by a really threatening medical condition. I mean if a few drops of cough-medicine made me feel that good I should probably stay away because of the addicting nature of opiates in general. Some people don't even like opiates though so I guess everyone's neurology is different.

I wonder if those who respond like me to opiates benefit more from LDN than others.

[Cuil]

Can you purchase naltraxone online or do you need a prescription?

[aLurker]

Naltrexone is a prescription medication, usually prescribed for alcohol dependency. You can still order it online from a few places without showing them any prescription though, just like many other uncontrolled prescription medications.

I'm still considering this even though the thoughts I've lined out here are speculative at best. Most people taking LDN do it because they have some serious underlying issue they are trying to treat. I'd basically be doing it for general health and well being which makes it harder to justify. I'm trying to justify it by saying it could improve a few minor things such as the fact I often get inflamed gums and tonsils and I think an increased amount of beta-endorphins would benefit me mentally. It also works with a totally different mechanism than anything else in my current stack which is great. It is also very cheap, should be fine for chronic use and might have health benefits long-term rather than risks.

There are potential side effects though, especially initially and I question just what exactly I would benefit from this. Still the curiosity will probably win in this case since I can't think of any other supplements I'd rather try right now.

[adamh]

From my own limited experience, I would say it helps with any allergy issues you may have and does seem to increase libido. On the downside for me at least, it makes it harder to sleep. If you are an insomniac already I would strongly consider this fact. I may be experiencing a little more motivation than usual but at the small doses I'm able to tolerate (0.7 mg per day) I don't see a lot of that. I heard it was good for neuralgia and nerve issues but have seen no benefit there.

Since I already have a supply I plan to keep using it until the end of the year gradually increasing the dosage. I hope to get it up to 1.5 mg per day by then. If I see additional benefits I will keep using it but if not, I plan to quit. In my case the trouble sleeping makes it not worth it. I have to rotate among various herbs and preparations to get a decent night's sleep. I did find that slowly raising the dose did help get by the side effect. I didn't notice the crappy feeling some spoke of or it was very slight. They say it can take months for nerve benefits and I started at a very low dose so I'm not going to give up now with success possibly just around the corner.

[aLurker]

Ok thanks for your input man. 0.7 is really low though and from what I've heard 1.5mg or even 1.75mg and up to 4.5mg is required for the body to start up-regulating beta-endorphins. Therefore I doubt you'll see any significant improvements until you get into the therapeutic range. I'd recommend ALCAR for your nerves but I suppose you've already considered that, very few get side effects from ALCAR.

Yeah, the sleep thing might be an issue for me right now and many seem to report that side effect on LDN. :/

[adamh]

Some people say 4.5 mg per day is the minimum or optimum amount. Others say 1.5, others say this or that. Those things are based on what works for them and they figure it will work the same for everyone. 0.5 mg was way too high when I started so I had to drop down low and slowly build up. I didn't grab this dose out of a hat. As I said, the side effects are about as much as I can tolerate right now. I would not expect that others would react exactly the same. I do use alcar, thank you. And use or have tried many other things like benfotiamine.

Many have said the sleep problems were minor or went away. If someone wants to see what it will do for them, they have to try it for themselves. I've gotten some benefit but I won't consider the experiment concluded until the end of the year at least.

[aLurker]

Yes very true that everyone doesn't get the same reaction from the same dose and side effects may occur on lower doses. This is true for any medication.

I just want to be clear that the therapeutic range I mentioned isn't just based purely on anecdotes or subjective measurements. I based that figure on an interview with Dr. Bihari where he states that doses between 1.75mg and 4.5mg would jumpstart endorphin levels, which they also measured. 0.5 may very well be enough to give you terrible side effects but to also fully enjoy the beneficial effects 1.75-4.5mg seems more likely according to tests. So hopefully you will reap further benefits when/if you can tolerate a higher dosage.

Exactly how does it affect your sleep? How does it make you feel when you try to go to sleep on LDN?

[adamh]

"Exactly how does it affect your sleep? How does it make you feel when you try to go to sleep on LDN?"

It's like I'm super tired and feel like I could sleep for a week. But, I never drop off and lay there awake all night. My body wants to sleep but the mind keeps going. Relaxation helps a little, counting breaths, etc but nothing works except drugs or herbs. I get a little rest but little to no sleep. So I take a variety of substances rotating through them and I get some or occasionally a good night's sleep.

"I based that figure on an interview with Dr. Bihari where he states that..."

Yeah, well that's nice and may be true but I stopped believing everything doctors said quite a while back. I don't totally disregard them but I trust my own experience a lot more than someone's opinion even based on studies and so on. Everyone is different. I don't discount the fact that a higher dose might give more benefits, or more side effects for that matter. One size does not fit all.

[aLurker]

Ok thanks for your answer. I don't have blind faith in doctors either although I tend to lie to myself more frequently than they lie to me. I'm having some sleep issues too; I can't get to bed on time. Any herbal or drug recommendations are welcome, I'm trying some herbal tea and magnesium right now.

One thing you could try is to take a higher dose of LDN in the morning instead and see if that helps. If it doesn't then perhaps you've at least built up some more tolerance and can use a higher dose than before when you switch back to nights.

[adamh]

I do take it in the morning. It seems worse taking it at night. Magnesium is very relaxing, I take 4 tabs of 225 elemental mg per tab in citrate form. I love the way I feel in the morning and it helps against cramping. But only so so for sleep. Scullcap tea helps, valerian plus hops helps, hops is good, over the counter cheap sleep aid no more than 2x per week, lemon balm tea but that seemed to stop working after a while. Tryptophane, but that did not work that great, black cohosh, mulungu tea, combinations of 2 of each of these. For example, scullcap + mulungu tea. Or most anything plus hops. Marijuana where legal.

I figure doctors often are right but then 2 doctors seldom agree on everything. Just like in a court case, each side has a lawyer. So are lawyers always right about the law? That's getting a little off the subject but just don't take the doctor's say so as the last word on the matter.