15 replies to this topic

[antibambi]

Have the lords of ImmInst come to a conclusion re: Vitamin E? I'm having a hard time convincing myself to invest in Tocotrienols when the Tocopherols are so tried and true. I've never supplemented additional Vitamin E before, so I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good selection from iHerb. I'm typically a fan of Jarrow, so I've been looking at these guys:

http://www.iherb.com...ftgels/205?at=0
http://www.iherb.com...ftgels/137?at=0

From my limited knowledge it appears that supplemental E should not be Alpha-Toco, as thats what is in most multis and fish oils and over time can deplete the other Tocopherols (Bueller?). That leads me to go with the Gamma E-300 as it seems pretty standard and doesn't even pretend to be messing around with Trienols. Is there any point to go with something else, such as the TocoSorb, or perhaps the Dr's Best DeltaGold Tocotrienols?

[Tate]

BUMP

[pycnogenol]

I like the Dry Vitamin E form myself (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 400 IU daily. This is the brand I use:

http://www.iherb.com...caps/10983?at=0

Edited by pycnogenol, 24 January 2011 - 04:22 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I'm having a hard time convincing myself to invest in Tocotrienols when the Tocopherols are so tried and true.

Tried and true for what?

[mikeinnaples]

I like the Dry Vitamin E form myself (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 400 IU daily.

Why on earth would you supplement with alpha tocopherol

[pycnogenol]

I like the Dry Vitamin E form myself (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 400 IU daily.

Why on earth would you supplement with alpha tocopherol

alpha tocopheryl succinate

Here is why on Earth I take alpha tocopheryl succinate ...

"The type of vitamin E we take is rather special and expensive: it’s D-alpha-tocopheryl succinate. Now, the reason we use the D-isomer alone rather than the usual D,L mixture is that the blood-brain barrier is remarkably picky, and there are stereospecific transporters that more readily carry the D-isomer of vitamin E across the barrier than the L-isomer. The D- and L-isomers are both perfectly good antioxidants—in vitro (in a test tube), you won’t see any difference—but you’ve got to get vitamin E into the brain, and the D-isomer is best in that regard. Also, we use the succinate ester rather than the less expensive acetate ester, because there are specific transporters for succinate in the blood-brain barrier, as well as in membranes around the mitochondria; those are the free radical hotbeds of activity, where you especially want to deliver antioxidants." - Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw

If its good enough for them its good enough for me. Again, it is d-alpha tocopheryl succinate.

Edited by pycnogenol, 24 January 2011 - 11:57 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

If its good enough for them its good enough for me. Again, it is d-alpha tocopheryl succinate.

Apologies, I am not familiar with this particular derivative of d-alpha-tocopherol. How does it interact with the other tocopherols and tocotrienols? Which is why I had stayed away from d-alpha-tocopherol to begin with.

[maxwatt]

Anything written on nutrition and supplementation seems to be recycled again and again even long after it has been debunked.

Sometimes the memes are hard to kill, and become generally accepted.

Succinate is better, no gamma is better! Why is 400 mg the standard dose? What about the claim that 200 mg is optimum, more that that has deleterious effects? Then there was my co-worker's husband, who was hospitalized with cardiac arrhythmias attributed to taking higher doses of vitamin E? And tocotrienols-- why do the papers showing beneficial effects seem to all come from the supplier of the material used in supplements?

The Lords of Imminst designed a multi-vitamin supplement, which is being marketed a Vimmortal by Revgenetics. It has 30 mg of E (as d alpha, with mixed tocopherols) and 10 mg tocotrienols. I believe more is overkill, unless you diet is grossly deficient. But then most people have deficient diets.

[pamojja]

How does it interact with the other tocopherols and tocotrienols? Which is why I had stayed away from d-alpha-tocopherol to begin with.

Is anyone aware of studies which not only show how gamma-tocopherol level decrease two thirds with exclusive alpha-tocopherol supplementation - but how much it would decrease by co-supplementation with equal amounts of gamma-tocopherols?

Comparison of plasma alpha and gamma tocopherol levels following chronic oral administration of either all-rac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate or RRR-alpha-tocopheryl acetate in normal adult male subjects.
Am J Clin Nutr 1986 Mar; 43(3): 382-7.
Baker H, Handelman GJ, Short S, Machlin LJ, Bhagavan HN, Dratz EA, Frank O.

Vitamin E was administered orally (400 IU twice a day) to adult male humans for 28 days as either dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (all-rac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate) or d-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (RRR-alpha-tocopheryl acetate). Plasma alpha-tocopherol rose rapidly and fell at the same rate following cessation of supplementation with both forms of vitamin E. No significant differences in plasma alpha- or gamma-tocopherol levels were found between the two forms of vitamin E following their administration. The results confirm the currently accepted biopotencies of 1.0 IU/mg and 1.36 IU/mg, respectively for the two forms of vitamin E. Supplementation with either form of alpha-tocopheryl acetate resulted in depressing plasma gamma-tocopherol to less than 1/3 of initial levels; also the gamma/alpha ratio was depressed to less than 1/7 of the initial value. The study suggests that the gamma/alpha vitamin E ratio might also serve as a sensitive index of alpha-tocopherol ingestion.

[Logan]

I think the Jarrow family E

[triplecrown]

Sesame seeds improve absorbtion of vitamin e?
http://inhumanexperi...orption-of.html

Edited by triplecrown, 03 July 2011 - 03:21 AM.

[Robert C]

I take a New Chapter multi. They have pretty much gone to 30 iu's of E in their multis. I called their customer service dept and they told me that they use mixed E's in their supps (all 8). The current RDA for E is 22.5 iu's for adults so this is a tad higher. According to the Linus Pauling Institute, 90% of Americans get less than the RDA of E. With the current controversy about E, this approach to take an RDAish level of mixed E's makes sense to me. It seems like one would get a lot of benefit for the possible side effect buck.

I too have wondered about this subject. One thing that's obvious to me is that it's really hard to get a lot of E in the diet naturally. I wonder if that tell's us something? Any comments about taking an RDAish supp of mixed E's as being safe and effective for anti aging?

[nameless]

Any comments about taking an RDAish supp of mixed E's as being safe and effective for anti aging?

If you have measured your dietary intake and assuming it isn't unusually high, I don't see a problem with RDA levels.

That big E meta-study years ago showed 50IU or so providing a minor benefit, 100IU being neutral, and higher amounts causing a potential problem. So long as you aren't megadosing, I wouldn't worry about it that much.

I'm not sure it'll really be 'anti-aging' exactly, but I don't think it'll harm you. And if taking fish oil/Omega 3s, it may be a good idea as for preventing excess oxidation.

[Robert C]

Thanks for your feedback nameless. I agree with your thoughts. I think my intake of E from food is around 10 mg or so (15 iu's). It's really hard to get the RDA from food alone.

According the the Linus Pauling Institiute, the average daily intake in the US of vitamin E is 7.8 and 6.3 mg (mg's not iu's) for men and women. The RDA is 15 mg (equivilent to 22.5 iu's). A lot of low dose multis have 30 iu's of E. This is 20 mg. This 20 mg added to a typical diet would seem to me, based upon available data, to be a reasonable supplementation of E. However, the Linus Pauling Institute for what it's worth suggests all adults take 200 iu's of E per day.

[hbar]

This is an interesting topic, as some of the information on Vit E on the LPI's website seems to indicate that the whole scare over alpha-tocopherol may not have been warranted. I went through their vitamin intake recommendations, and here's what they look like:

Vitamin A: 5000 IU (at least 50% as beta carotene) or 2500 IU (100% retinol)
B-Vitamins:
B6: 2 mg
B12: RDA
Biotin: RDA
Folic Acid: RDA
Niacin: RDA
Pantothenic Acid: RDA
Riboflavin: RDA
Thiamine: RDA
Vitamin C: 400 mg
Vitamin D: 2000 IU
Vitamin E: 200 IU (d-alpha-tocopherol)
Vitamin K: unknown (recommends taking a multi and eating 1 cup of dark green leafy vegs per day)

The only one of the supra-RDA recommendations that many people here might take issue with is the E recommendation. 5000 IU of A (especially as beta carotene) seems pretty normal, 400 mg of C some might argue is unnecessary but I doubt many would consider that a dangerous level of supplementation, and 2000 IU of D is very reasonable (though obviously D supplementation should be based on blood tests).

But their E recommendation is waaaaay higher than what many might normally recommend; it's also interesting that their info page on E doesn't make much of all the hype generated around gamma-tocopherol (and basically doesn't mention tocotrienols at all).

So what's the deal? Did people get needlessly scared off of alpha-tocopherol?

[nameless]

I would say their vitamin A recommendation is a little high too. Extra retinol has been linked to bone fractures, for instance (A/K/D relationship perhaps?). And it's also extremely easy to get vitamin A from diet.

And for vitamin E, there are some studies showing perhaps a benefit as for ischemic stroke reduction (I believe it was a women's study), although if I remember right, it may increase risk of hemorrhagic stroke.

I always found the alpha-tocopherol studies a little weird, to be honest. It seems none of the big E studies ever used mixed Es, even when those studying it mentioned potential issues with alpha only.

Edited by nameless, 06 July 2011 - 05:57 PM.