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Suggestions for those with large budgets


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#1 nootropi

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 04:24 PM


recompiling.

;)

Edited by nootropi, 31 January 2005 - 03:37 AM.


#2 Kalepha

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 05:27 PM

Take available endless budget, subtract enough for

› caffeine 200 mg, 2x (breakfast and lunch)
› ginkgo biloba 100 mg, 2x (breakfast and lunch)
› omega 3-6-9 1000 mg, 3x (breakfast, lunch, and dinner)

and send the rest to an organization you think will bring about affordable brain-computer interfacing the quickest. [thumb]

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#3 DJS

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 08:20 PM

**chuckle** [lol]

Um yeah, I'd probably add CoQ10 and a multivitamin to Nate's list. Nootropi, wouldn't you be concerned with the potential negative interaction for a regiment that extensive? I mean, two or three nootropics may have some benefit, but 26! ;)

#4 Kalepha

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 08:52 PM

;)

I probably would have kept my mouth shut, but i've tried many nootropics simultaneously for long enough durations to know that it all comes down to alertness and memory, while the rest is determined by the study methods and future prospects involved.

Of course, that is my unqualified yet empirical opinion. (Please don't hate me, nootropi!)

#5 Kalepha

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:39 PM

Thanks, nootropi, for the elucidation. It does make better sense in that light. And admittedly, i never went that far in taking nootropics seriously, so there's always a possibility i could have made misjudged inferences. I think you hit the nail on the head with the quantitative facet in reasoning with and without nootropics. In those situations where it is perceived critical, it could mean the difference between making foolishly unnecessary mistakes and minimizing them.

#6 Kalepha

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 09:55 PM

Yeah, i see what you mean. Power series stuff looks to be about second semester calculus. That's when things should start to get interesting. Although i wouldn't know yet!

#7 lemon

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 11:06 PM

Hmmm... those are straight forward calculations for the most part. Try taking some graduate level thermodynamic/fluid dynamic classes where you have to set up a problem, make assumptions as to the nature of the solution, and then solve with either A) emperical equations or B) analytical ones. Somestimes you'll go about solving a problem and then you'll have to know when to use a power series representation to simplify a more complex equation.

[thumb]

#8 nootropi

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 11:43 PM

Hmmm... those are straight forward calculations for the most part.  Try taking some graduate level thermodynamic/fluid dynamic classes where you have to set up a problem, make assumptions as to the nature of the solution, and then solve with either A) emperical equations or B) analytical ones.  Somestimes you'll go about solving a problem and then you'll have to know when to use a power series representation to simplify a more complex equation. 

[thumb]


Yes, those I posted are just "compute, compute..." I do admit there is little creative thinking involved in those; the reason I selected those to upload here was:

a) Because I have them conveniently saved already in mathtype .gif or .pdf format (easy to upload)
b) To show the type of computations that I was performing accurately with the above posted regimen

Yes, this is undergraduate, lower division math; however, I just started math last spring: precalc.

#9

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 07:19 AM

Take available endless budget, subtract enough for

› caffeine 200 mg, 2x (breakfast and lunch)
› ginkgo biloba 100 mg, 2x (breakfast and lunch)
› omega 3-6-9 1000 mg, 3x (breakfast, lunch, and dinner)

and send the rest to an organization you think will bring about affordable brain-computer interfacing the quickest. [thumb]


In time, in time...

nootropi is the best example of what an extensive, properly dosed, nootropic stack used over the long term can do. We clearly have a long way to go before serious cognition enhancers are sythensized through whatever means the future brings. However do not assume that an extensive nootropic stack won't offer some noticeable improvement in some cognitive faculties. This becomes more essential, as has been mentioned, when you're in an acedemically rigorous course.

#10 Kalepha

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 07:38 AM

You're right, cosmos. The big stack could possibly have a noticeable effect where the situations are critical. There are also many who have done just fine in rigorous settings on traditional stimulants for many years. In the end, it is up to the individual to determine if the negligible effects are worth the cost. But I understand what might be another reason for nootropi to post this stack: it covers all the bases.

#11 eternaltraveler

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 08:45 AM

nootropics are far more useful in people with actual cognitive disabilities, or the elderly.

I'm not saying they don't work in the rest of us, they just don't have nearly as a pronounced effect.

I am personally much more interested in substances that can prolong lifespan. If I can live long enough dramatic cognition increases through a variety of means should become possible.

#12 olderbutwiser

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 11:30 AM

I am personally much more interested in substances that can prolong lifespan. If I can live long enough dramatic cognition increases through a variety of means should become possible.

Amen. I take a modest number of nootropics and have for almost two decades. If forced to choose between only nootropics or only diet/lifestyle/supplements targeted on longevity, I would opt for the latter instantly.

I looked over the "stack" in this topic lead post with amazement. Very interesting. I wonder how such a stack would fare under the scrutiny of objective double blind testing. I have my suspicions, but they aren't based on anything concrete.

You see, one thing most people don't know, but should know, is that 99% of drugs that are in the nootropic category, are harmless even in gargantuan doses.
I've never seen one study, anywhere that looked at the safety of such a stack. Data = nada on the question of safety. I do know that there are many examples of chemical injuries to the brain that take decades to become apparent. Do a bit of research into the speculated causes of Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. I am in no way suggesting that such a stack is dangerous. I would love to hear the reasoning that it is safe. Every additional xenobiotic you add to a stack increases, by an order of magnitude, the chances for an unforseen interaction. The overwhelming percentage of unforseen interactions are not positive. Such a stack would have to have some amazing documented benefits to make the unknown risk worth accepting to me.

OBW

#13 dalessm

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:51 PM

I do know that there are many examples of chemical injuries to the brain that take decades to become apparent. Do a bit of research into the speculated causes of Parkinson's or Alzheimer's.



Hi OBW,

In reference to your quote above, can you just name the nootropics/psychoactive chemicals that have been implicated in the development of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's?

Thanks in advance,
Melissa

#14 nootropi

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:55 PM

I am personally much more interested in substances that can prolong lifespan. If I can live long enough dramatic cognition increases through a variety of means should become possible.


Amen. I take a modest number of nootropics and have for almost two decades. If forced to choose between only nootropics or only diet/lifestyle/supplements targeted on longevity, I would opt for the latter instantly. 

I looked over the "stack" in this topic lead post with amazement. Very interesting. I wonder how such a stack would fare under the scrutiny of objective double blind testing. I have my suspicions, but they aren't based on anything concrete.

You see, one thing most people don't know, but should know, is that 99% of drugs that are in the nootropic category, are harmless even in gargantuan doses.
I've never seen one study, anywhere that looked at the safety of such a stack. Data = nada on the question of safety. I do know that there are many examples of chemical injuries to the brain that take decades to become apparent. Do a bit of research into the speculated causes of Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. I am in no way suggesting that such a stack is dangerous. I would love to hear the reasoning that it is safe. Every additional xenobiotic you add to a stack increases, by an order of magnitude, the chances for an unforseen interaction. The overwhelming percentage of unforseen interactions are not positive. Such a stack would have to have some amazing documented benefits to make the unknown risk worth accepting to me.

OBW


Hello OBW,

I do agree that elaborate regimens may be risky; however, they may also incur great benefits. No risk, no return.

By no means should anybody read the details of my regimen and automatically assume that it will work for them.

I read every abstract available at the pubmed database on most of the supplements that I take; and for those I have not extensively studied, I defer to the reasoning of others whom I consider to be competent.

RALA, ALCAR, and L-Carnosine are not xenobiotic; not that it matters particularly considering that the doses I articulated.

Piracetam, aniracetam, and oxiracetam are quite similar molecularly, and we know these are safe. The pyrrolidone family of drugs has been extensively studied in animals and although we may not understand exactly how they work, we know they are reasonably effective (maybe not always statistically speaking) in restoring memory (and vigilance) in animals with impaired memories. What does this imply for healthy individuals? This largely depends on exactly what differentiates individuals with impaired memory from those with “normal” working memory. Besides being largely absent of side effects, drugs of the pyrrolidone class may indeed be neuroprotective and inhibit memory loss.

Potent antioxidants can improve cognitive function, and delay cognitive decline. For example, we have found that bacopa, deprenyl, pyritinol are all potent antioxidants in the brain; however in different parts of the brain, region specific may answer the question of how each improves cognitive function in humans. There are several other “nootropics” that are also antioxidants, such as hydergine, nicergoline, bromocriptine from the ergot class; RALA, L-Carnosine, pyridoxamine dihydrochloride, benfotiamine; and the list continues.

All of the supplements I take I have adjusted the metabolic scaling to my age and weight. I also titrate up to what I estimate will be an effective yet safe dose for daily consumption. I regularly have several blood tests performed and the results analysed by a health professional to ensure that my organs are functioning efficiently.

As I mentioned before, it is most important to watch for contraindications within neurotransmitter systems. If any drug takes control of a particular transmitter by significant measure, it is advisable to proceed with extreme caution. Thankfully, I take no painkillers, so if there is a mal interaction, I certainly would be made aware of it, as I did when I started deprenyl while also taking hydergine, nicergoline, and bromocriptine. The doses that I take of the drugs I listed are far beneath the “therapeutic range” for most chronic illnesses. For example:

Deprenyl – 1 mg (the dose for Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s is 10 mg or more)
Nicergoline – 5 mg (the dose for senile dementia is 30-60 mg a day)
Bromocriptine –1.25 mg (the dose for Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s is 2.5-15 mg a day)

I really have to go now. If you have any more specific questions, please let me know. However, I will only have about 20 minutes a day for this forum as school has just resumed.

Take care.

#15 lemon

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 01:01 PM

The racetams have a oxygen normalizing property and should benifit those at higher elevations.

#16 shapeshiftinliz

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 02:06 PM

Great Stack Nootroopi -- It is actually very similar to what I have come up with. For the first 2 months I did a lot of tweaking and had mixed results. Even thought about dropping the supplements. Lately though I have been having great results and feel better than ever. The super brain effect has finally kicked in. As a side note when I incorporated the a better mix of the b's, my stack seemed to really improve. Inositol/Choline @ 1-2g, pantothenic acid @ 500mg, 3mg biotin, 4mg folic acid, extra inositol hexanicotinate/niacinamide, 100 sulbutiamine, 100 benfotiamine, 100 pyridoxamine, 100 pyrintinol, and A b-50 complex, and a source naturals coenzymate b, just about covers the b's. Those who have tried desmopressin, whats do you think about it? I am not entirely sure if it works for me. I know people who like it, however.

#17 eternaltraveler

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 02:09 AM

I feel better without the racetams.

#18 dalessm

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 02:42 AM

I feel better without the racetams.


Hi Elrond,

What do you mean by feeling "better". In what way?

Thanks. :)

#19 eternaltraveler

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:50 PM

I just felt very off with my nootropic stack. Perhaps my brain is already running optimally :)

Life extension type things however, make me feel better.

(yes I am aware of some overlap that exists.)

#20

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 02:29 AM

How did you use your nootropic stack? I'm just wondering because the disorientation associated with using a nootropic stack can occur initially, but nootropi and I have advocated that you need to use a nootropic stack for a few weeks before you can get an idea about whether nootropics are positively contributing to your cognitive faculties.

#21

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 06:47 AM

elrond I understand your hesitation, and it is a serious thing to alter one's neurochemistry but I believe the safety and efficacy of these nootropics has been pretty well established over the years.

The best argument you've made is that we do not know exactly how these substances are operating in the body when taken together in a nootropic stack. This is a legitimate claim, however there are a small number of studies that analyze the effects of various nootropics taken together and they haven't come up with any detrimental unexpected side effects. The risk of detrimental side effects seems to increase slightly when using a nootropic stack, but it's clear from user response and the aforementioned studies that the risks remain quite low and the benefit to risk ratio is quite large.

The general aim of taking nootropics is to improve cognitive faculties and memory. This is not like recreational drug use where the risks are orders of magnitude higher and the benefits are non-existant, beyond perhaps the immediate pleasure or euphoria experienced. The brain has been exposed to foreign substances all throughout it's evolution and it has evolved the ability to recover from most detrimental effects inccured from those substances. I would not be so cynical about nootropic use, I think the brain and body are exposed to far worse things in life.

edit: We're also well aware of those nootropics that are contradictory and can react badly if ingested together. Again we may not know everything about these substances but after reading about these nootropics/supplements for months I'm pretty confident about their overall safety.

#22 eternaltraveler

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 07:57 AM

Anyway, as I've stated I'm much more interested in anti-aging substances. I think old-fashioned stimulants have a greater noticeable effect than nootropics. I notice when I pop a caffeine pill. The effects of nootropics seem to be quite subtle. I'd be interested in giving something like modafinil a try(btw, anyone have any experience with this?). It is, after all, a more specific kind of stimulant.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think nootropics would kill me or permanently harm me. I probably will take nootropics again. Just not for some time. I think nootropics can do quite a bit for age related mental decline. I've been trying to get my grandfather to try some. However I'm in my prime, and I have no problem doing linear algebra, or complex physics. The only reason I took them in the first place was because of the possibility of reaching some grand new plateau of cognition. That did not happen, so for me, currently, they are a waste of money
.

#23

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 10:13 AM

That's fine. I can respect your view and position.

"However I'm in my prime, and I have no problem doing linear algebra, or complex physics."

I don't think I was endowed with extraodinary capabilities myself, while I can hold my own mathematically, I question how far I can stretch myself to reach my ultimate acedemic goals. Regardless we all have different goals, and I'll take any additional help to reach my acedemic goals at this time.

I also understand your reasoning in waiting for more effective nootropics to come in the future, and focusing your interest on life-extension drugs now. I am in the reverse position where I am taking nootropics now but don't plan to take life extension supplements seriously until around 10 years from now.

#24 nbourbaki

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 04:31 AM

40.            Jialgulan 90% extract 50 mg twice daily with meals (thanks Zen Catholic, :) )


I'm assuming you meant Jiaogulan. Is this for life extension or cognitive enhancement? Can you share your experience with this herb?

#25 pinballwizard

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 06:28 AM

Anyway, as I've stated I'm much more interested in anti-aging substances.  I think old-fashioned stimulants have a greater noticeable effect than nootropics.  I notice when I pop a caffeine pill.  The effects of nootropics seem to be quite subtle.  I'd be interested in giving something like modafinil a try(btw, anyone have any experience with this?).  It is, after all, a more specific kind of stimulant. 

Don't get me wrong.  I don't think nootropics would kill me or permanently harm me.  I probably will take nootropics again.  Just not for some time.  I think nootropics can do quite a bit for age related mental decline.  I've been trying to get my grandfather to try some.  However I'm in my prime, and I have no problem doing linear algebra, or complex physics.  The only reason I took them in the first place was because of the possibility of reaching some grand new plateau of cognition.  That did not happen, so for me, currently, they are a waste of money
.


I am sorry to hear that Elrond. I have only been taking nootropics (like -cetams) for like 2+ weeks. I totally feel a difference in clarity. I am finding my keys, I am remembering conversations way back in the past, I have more mental energy, and I am getting more done. I hope you find something that you like. I get a mild head throb, (a very mild headache). I dont think the affects are subtle at all. However, I think that the results may vary.

I take all this with cafeine for added benefit.

It looks like you posted that you are a triathlete and eat extremely well. Did you ever consider dosing it down. Perhaps your circulatory system works to well?

Although, I tried desmopressin last night... that is more risky than most other noots, imho. I think I gave myself 3 nasal squirts on accident thinking that it was not working yet. Jury is still out on that one. If you get some desmopressing nasal, squirt one into the air before you use it.

Pinball

#26 nootropi

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 01:16 PM

I am sorry to hear that Elrond. I have only been taking nootropics (like -cetams) for like 2+ weeks.  I totally feel a difference in clarity.


The real benefit comes after using racetams for, say, six months.

#27 pinballwizard

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 01:44 AM

Here is what I would suggest to somebody with an endless budget whom has no contraindications or allergies to any of the listed medications/supplements:

1. Hydergine 5 mg per day (that is 4.5 mg FAS tablet, 0.5 mg through liquid dropper) (with breakfast)
2. 5 mg nicergoline empty stomach before breakfast
3. 1.25 mg bromocriptine (With breakfast)
4. Liquid deprenyl 1 mg per day, liquid dropper (25-35 years old)
5. Aniracetam 500 mg am with breakfast, 500 mg pm with lunch
6. Oxiracetam 600 mg am with breakfast, 600 mg pm with lunch
7. Piracetam 800 mg am with breakfast, 800 mg with lunch
8. 1000 mg Alpha GPC 50% with breakfast, 1000 mg with lunch
9. Inositol 1000 mg with breakfast,  1000 mg with lunch
10. 250 mg CDP choline with breakfast
11. Pyritinol 600 mg am with breakfast
12. Picamillon 50-100 mg with breakfast, same with lunch
13. Ginko biloba 120 mg twice daily, standardized to 24% flavone glycosides, 6% terpene lactones
14. Modafinil 200 mg immediately after awakening
15. Centrophenoxine 125 mg with breakfast, 125 mg with lunch
16. Aricept 5 mg (if you can get a prescription for this, which can be replaced with another AChE inhibitor)
17. Vasopressin(desmo) 1 spray under stressful learning/recollection situtations
18. Creatine micronized/monohydrate 5 grams per day
19. Vinpocetine 10% 100 mg breakfast 100 mg lunch
20. Ashwaghanda standardized to 1.5% Withanolides 750 mg am 750 mg pm
21. Bacopa standardized to 20% bacosides 600 mg am 500 mg pm
22.  Pyrodoxamine dihydrochoride 100 mg twice daily with meals
23. Benfotiamine 100 mg twice daily with meals
24. N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine 600 mg with breakfast
25. Resveratrol 10 mg with breakfast, 10 with lunch
26. ALT-711 (if under 30 y.o.) 30 mg twice daily with meals, if over 30 40 mg twice daily, if over 40 45 mg twice daily with meals, do not exceed 90 mg daily though

To be taken immediately after awakening; and on an empty stomach three times daily, at least 20 minutes before ingesting food or other nootropics:

27. 250-300 mg K-RLA
28. 800 mg ALCAR
29. 500 mg L-Carnosine (ONLY BEFORE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH= 2 times a day)


Misc supps/antioxidants:
30. L-theanine is an add all (which means it can be added always 200 mg or more not more than 400 mg)
31. Phenibut: can be taken when need to appear relaxed without appearing intoxicated (should not be daily)
32. A full spectrum multivitamin
33. a full spectrum B
34. A full spectrum E (gamma, delta, and beta tocopherol)
35.          Supplemental Biotin 1 mg daily
36.          1.5-2 grams (total daily) EPA/DHA with breakfast/lunch
37.          1000 mg flax seed oil with breakfast/lunch
38.            833% Vitamin C supp.
39.            Activin grape seed extract 100 mg twice daily with meals
40.            Jialgulan 90% extract 50 mg twice daily with meals (thanks Zen Catholic, :) )
41.            Green tea, 96% polyphenols, 70% catechins 250 mg twice daily with meals
42.            Olive leaf extract 17% oleuropeins 500 mg twice daily with meals
43.            IP6 1000 mg twice daily with meals
44.            Shalijit 20% fuvic acid 400 mg twice daily twice daily with meals
45.            Rhodiola rosea 3-4% 300 mg twice daily with meals

Disclaimer:

For 99% this EXACT stack will NOT work for you.  I by no means recommend immediately starting this regimen. 
Have a full blood workup performed and analysed by a qualified health professional before starting any new regimen (that is CBC, differential, platlet count, comprehensive metabolic panel, and full lipid panel).



Nootropi, could you tell us where you bought these from, i know it would not take long to put that next to it and I know you have done a lot of bargain hunting. I know Smi2le does not sell everything.

Thanks,

Pinballwizard


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#28 nootropi

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 11:55 AM

1. Smi2le.biz: nootropics, couple LE supps
2. Beyond-a-century.com: herbs, misc antioxidants
3. Biogenesis.za: (liquid) hydergine, liquid deprenyl, nicergoline, bromocriptine
4. Drugs-one.com: generic modafinil




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