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One of many readily apparent reasons to be agnostic.


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#31 Soma

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:14 AM

I have no problem with asking all kinds of questions about things that seen Supernatural or difficult to explain. So I agree with you as opposed to someone who makes the statement, “miracles are impossible, end of discussion.”


Alright, let me just as this question then to you shadowhawk. You believe that true miracles are possible. No, I'm not talking about aunt Judy recovering from cancer or how that song popped in your head right before it came on the radio. No, I am talking about the impossible made possible.

You believe this is not only plausible but absolutely has and can happen, correct?

So tell me this? What if you heard from someone that one day their dog stood up and began singing "amazing grace", morphed into a komodo dragon with a diamond studded tongue, and then burst into purple flames as it was chanting, "repent, the end is near...repent, the end is near"?

Would you say that, although you weren't there to see this personally, this could indeed be possible?

Is this scenario possible?

Yes or no?

#32 Cameron

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:07 AM

The biggest problem in my opinion is not whether some supernatural event could take place.(e.g. that a population could be subject to an external godlike being able to alter the rules of their world, is possible, for example individuals unaware of being in a simulation.), but the contorted reasoning behind performing a limited set of supernatural acts in the distant past instead of in modern times for an omniscient being.

Say, the crucifixion. It would likely have not been too much trouble to delay that by two thousand years(After all the people in the tens of thousands of preceding years had no problem waiting.), while one might mention prophecies omniscience could've easily allowed prophecies to be made taking this delay into account. The fake present day "jesus man" preacher guy is gaining tons of followers, a REAL present day Jesus would've shocked the world to its foundation(There are plenty of places for such a Jesus to get killed, like north korea, or some states.). But most importantly thanks to modern technology the documentation of his existence and miracles, had it happened in the present day, would have been all but irrefutable, and it would have provided rational open minded people with really convincing evidence. As it stands placing the crucifixion in the distant past, is a major blunder, most rational open minded individuals will be driven by the evidence to seriously doubt or entirely dismiss it. Assuming humanity is not going to die in the near term, that means the future of such a religion is bleak indeed.

In other words,


The problem with God acting miraculously through the early periods in history is simply that as described it would take a very contorted or convoluted reasoning to arrive at performing the rare miracles in such a distant past. If God is going to be fairly strict with his sprinkling of miracles, and if he hopes to convince most people....

it stands to reason that given omniscience if one is going to be very very strict in the sprinkling of miracles, which will provide the foundation for the only text that is supposed to establish the one-to-one relationship with each individual human, one would wait to perform such miracles until technology had progressed enough to document them and spread their word widely.
As stands it is unlikely most of post-humanity will take these wild tales seriously and virtually every religion will die out in the future, or become nothing more than something followed by some small irrelevant group(ala, amish).

Looking at it from a rational point of view the idea that god would have virtually zero contact with humans for countless tens of thousands of years, and start a small magical adventure near the advent of writing, stopping too early for technological documentation to be truly viable, is a bit difficult to swallow. After waiting countless thousands of years he said, wowzers writing's been invented lets perform the few scant miracles I'll ever perform, no reason to wait any more(after waiting tens of thousands of years to start this magical opera). Sure there's no means of distinguishing them from hallucinations, madness, etc but the omniscient superintelligence does not see that such will bring problems in the coming centuries. How can someone who knows the technology that would be available in say the 20th century, decide to waste the only few acts that could serve as evidence by not waiting for the technological documenting means to be available, if he waited for writing why not for modern tech?

If one supposes such god is, that act leads to an almost paradoxical answer, either god wanted the miracles to be nothing but obscure jokes that would not provide any real evidence or he was ignorant or malicious in providing the supposed evidence in such obscure form. The most reasonable conclusion is that a god with such contorted internal logic does not exist.

Edited by Cameron, 01 October 2010 - 03:11 AM.


#33 shadowhawk

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 12:02 AM

I have no problem with asking all kinds of questions about things that seen Supernatural or difficult to explain. So I agree with you as opposed to someone who makes the statement, "miracles are impossible, end of discussion."


Alright, let me just as this question then to you shadowhawk. You believe that true miracles are possible. No, I'm not talking about aunt Judy recovering from cancer or how that song popped in your head right before it came on the radio. No, I am talking about the impossible made possible.

You believe this is not only plausible but absolutely has and can happen, correct?

So tell me this? What if you heard from someone that one day their dog stood up and began singing "amazing grace", morphed into a komodo dragon with a diamond studded tongue, and then burst into purple flames as it was chanting, "repent, the end is near...repent, the end is near"?

Would you say that, although you weren't there to see this personally, this could indeed be possible?

Is this scenario possible?

Yes or no?


I am sorry, I don’t answer yes - no questions like that. I believe in the possibility of miracles. Let me say, yes miracles are possible. This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose. :) Yes, No.


#34 Rational Madman

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 02:36 PM

In spite of being intellectually objectionable on so many levels, religion does possess a social stabilizing effect that I wouldn't want to liberate from the masses. And I think our fixation on the notion might have a counterproductive effect on our mission goals, since demographic data suggests that the athiest/agnonitic bloc does not possess considerable influence, and because a strident position on this question is more likely to alienate than charm.

#35 chris w

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 03:16 PM

In spite of being intellectually objectionable on so many levels, religion does possess a social stabilizing effect that I wouldn't want to liberate from the masses. And I think our fixation on the notion might have a counterproductive effect on our mission goals, since demographic data suggests that the athiest/agnonitic bloc does not possess considerable influence, and because a strident position on this question is more likely to alienate than charm.


I see the rationale behind not making it a strident position in transhumanism, but this stabilizing effect may be pretty overhyped if you ask me.
One of the least religious european nations was found to be the safest too ( I know it was Scandinavian, though I don't remember which one exactly right now ). That could as well be just a correlation and other factors might come into play ( like the level of finacial disparities among society ) but is sufficient to prove that even if there was an effect of this kind, at some level of development it probably ceases to be significant.

And strong religiosity often coincides with rigid and authoritarian attitudes ( like in this survey from a year ago I think, where the most religious Americans also turned out to be the most in favor of the decision to A-bomb Japan in WW2, not to mention attitudes towards things like the death penalty ).

I definitely won't make a life time mission out of this, but I sure wouldn't mind that much the massess getting liberated.

#36 Soma

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:56 PM

I am sorry, I don’t answer yes - no questions like that. I believe in the possibility of miracles. Let me say, yes miracles are possible. This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


Ok, so let me get this straight.

It's possible for a donkey to talk, but not for a dog to sing?

It's possible for a piece of wood (a staff) to morph into a serpent, but not for a dog to morph into a lizard?

It's possible for a bush to talk while it is burning, but it is not possible for a lizard to talk while it is burning?

My scenario was obviously just an illustration. I hope you got the point.

This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


As were the "miracles" in the bible likewise made up. They were made up in the minds of those that dreamed up these fantastic tales just as the tales of The Iliad and The Odyssey were dreamed up in the mind of Homer. They were likely penned into various writings for the same purposes that they were woven into the oral stories- as a dramatic tool, to make it as though they were imbued with an otherworldly supernatural authority, or both.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that my "miraculous" scenario had been included in the bible. Would you believe it? My guess would be yes, you would.

Edited by Soma, 06 October 2010 - 06:13 PM.


#37 shadowhawk

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:39 PM

I am sorry, I don't answer yes - no questions like that. I believe in the possibility of miracles. Let me say, yes miracles are possible. This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


Ok, so let me get this straight.

It's possible for a donkey to talk, but not for a dog to sing?

It's possible for a piece of wood (a staff) to morph into a serpent, but not for a dog to morph into a lizard?

It's possible for a bush to talk while it is burning, but it is not possible for a lizard to talk while it is burning?

My scenario was obviously just an illustration. I hope you got the point.

This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


As were the "miracles" in the bible likewise made up. They were made up in the minds of those that dreamed up these fantastic tales just as the tales of The Iliad and The Odyssey were dreamed up in the mind of Homer. They were likely penned into various writings for the same purposes that they were woven into the oral stories- as a dramatic tool, to make it as though they were imbued with an otherworldly supernatural authority, or both.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that my "miraculous" scenario had been included in the bible. Would you believe it? My guess would be yes, you would.


You love to set up straw men and answer for others don't you.

Are you saying miracles are impossible? Is it impossible to break the laws of nature?
Modern science no longer speaks about laws. What used to be called a law now is spoken of as a probability because science cannot predict what an individual molecule in a given population is likely to do . What were called laws now are being stated in terms of statistics or probiblity statements. They vary immensely in the likelihood of something happening a certain way. Not for you because you know absolutely when something can’t happen. (Your form of an absolute.)

What do we need to add to miracles to translate them into something possible to account for? Nothing we can do can make a miracle a probable event, but it may be possible to add some information to it to make it possible. One thing that needs to be added is a source of energy unknown to us in our biological and physiological sciences. In our Scriptures this source of energy is identified as the power of God.

I think miracles are something improbable, and so does the scientist. Both Christian and scientist agree that it is impossible to explain miracles in terms of our present understanding. This doesn't mean miracles are impossible, and the Christian accepts them by faith . . . The attitude to science of the scientist who is not a Christian is rapidly approaching that of the scientist who is a Christian.

So, again Nol I do not believe your made up farce is a miracles that are real but I believe miracles, though improbable, are possible. As long as the existence of God is possible so are miracles. Again, Greg says it well.


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#38 Rational Madman

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:17 PM

I am sorry, I don't answer yes - no questions like that. I believe in the possibility of miracles. Let me say, yes miracles are possible. This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


Ok, so let me get this straight.

It's possible for a donkey to talk, but not for a dog to sing?

It's possible for a piece of wood (a staff) to morph into a serpent, but not for a dog to morph into a lizard?

It's possible for a bush to talk while it is burning, but it is not possible for a lizard to talk while it is burning?

My scenario was obviously just an illustration. I hope you got the point.

This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


As were the "miracles" in the bible likewise made up. They were made up in the minds of those that dreamed up these fantastic tales just as the tales of The Iliad and The Odyssey were dreamed up in the mind of Homer. They were likely penned into various writings for the same purposes that they were woven into the oral stories- as a dramatic tool, to make it as though they were imbued with an otherworldly supernatural authority, or both.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that my "miraculous" scenario had been included in the bible. Would you believe it? My guess would be yes, you would.


You love to set up straw men and answer for others don't you.

Are you saying miracles are impossible? Is it impossible to break the laws of nature?
Modern science no longer speaks about laws. What used to be called a law now is spoken of as a probability because science cannot predict what an individual molecule in a given population is likely to do . What were called laws now are being stated in terms of statistics or probiblity statements. They vary immensely in the likelihood of something happening a certain way. Not for you because you know absolutely when something can't happen. (Your form of an absolute.)

What do we need to add to miracles to translate them into something possible to account for? Nothing we can do can make a miracle a probable event, but it may be possible to add some information to it to make it possible. One thing that needs to be added is a source of energy unknown to us in our biological and physiological sciences. In our Scriptures this source of energy is identified as the power of God.

I think miracles are something improbable, and so does the scientist. Both Christian and scientist agree that it is impossible to explain miracles in terms of our present understanding. This doesn't mean miracles are impossible, and the Christian accepts them by faith . . . The attitude to science of the scientist who is not a Christian is rapidly approaching that of the scientist who is a Christian.

So, again Nol I do not believe your made up farce is a miracles that are real but I believe miracles, though improbable, are possible. As long as the existence of God is possible so are miracles. Again, Greg says it well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnYvkeomwM0


Now ask yourself Shadowhawk, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish here with your evangelizing?

#39 shadowhawk

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 11:39 PM

I am sorry, I don't answer yes - no questions like that. I believe in the possibility of miracles. Let me say, yes miracles are possible. This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


Ok, so let me get this straight.

It's possible for a donkey to talk, but not for a dog to sing?

It's possible for a piece of wood (a staff) to morph into a serpent, but not for a dog to morph into a lizard?

It's possible for a bush to talk while it is burning, but it is not possible for a lizard to talk while it is burning?

My scenario was obviously just an illustration. I hope you got the point.

This construct is obviously not one of them sense it is made up, we know it was made up, by whom and for what purpose.


As were the "miracles" in the bible likewise made up. They were made up in the minds of those that dreamed up these fantastic tales just as the tales of The Iliad and The Odyssey were dreamed up in the mind of Homer. They were likely penned into various writings for the same purposes that they were woven into the oral stories- as a dramatic tool, to make it as though they were imbued with an otherworldly supernatural authority, or both.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that my "miraculous" scenario had been included in the bible. Would you believe it? My guess would be yes, you would.


You love to set up straw men and answer for others don't you.

Are you saying miracles are impossible? Is it impossible to break the laws of nature?
Modern science no longer speaks about laws. What used to be called a law now is spoken of as a probability because science cannot predict what an individual molecule in a given population is likely to do . What were called laws now are being stated in terms of statistics or probiblity statements. They vary immensely in the likelihood of something happening a certain way. Not for you because you know absolutely when something can't happen. (Your form of an absolute.)

What do we need to add to miracles to translate them into something possible to account for? Nothing we can do can make a miracle a probable event, but it may be possible to add some information to it to make it possible. One thing that needs to be added is a source of energy unknown to us in our biological and physiological sciences. In our Scriptures this source of energy is identified as the power of God.

I think miracles are something improbable, and so does the scientist. Both Christian and scientist agree that it is impossible to explain miracles in terms of our present understanding. This doesn't mean miracles are impossible, and the Christian accepts them by faith . . . The attitude to science of the scientist who is not a Christian is rapidly approaching that of the scientist who is a Christian.

So, again Nol I do not believe your made up farce is a miracles that are real but I believe miracles, though improbable, are possible. As long as the existence of God is possible so are miracles. Again, Greg says it well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnYvkeomwM0


Now ask yourself Shadowhawk, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish here with your evangelizing?


OK Why do I share my opinions regarding my Faith?

I answered a poll, What is your Faith?
http://www.imminst.o...ic/36306-faith/

I wasn’t hoping to accomplish anything. What were Atheists hoping when they answered that question? Well you can read the response, no use repeating it here. There are not that many Christians on this board so it seems like I am alone. :)

So you think it is evangelizing to answer questions regarding Faith? Are others doing the same thing or should Christians just be quiet when they hear people saying all kinds of things about them. I am doing the same thing as everyone else.
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#40 eternaltraveler

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 02:59 AM

I answered a poll, What is your Faith?


that was 5 months ago and you haven't stopped or taken a break since.

So you think it is evangelizing to answer questions regarding Faith?


You've been repeating yourself ad nausem.

Most people, once they've make their point, don't feel compelled to repeat it for half a year, and they can accept that not everyone is going to agree with them and move on with their lives.

You are clearly evangelizing.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 07 October 2010 - 11:23 AM.

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#41 Cameron

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 04:48 AM

since demographic data suggests that the athiest/agnonitic bloc does not possess considerable influence, and because a strident position on this question is more likely to alienate than charm.


I don't view it as a problem, it seems the dawn of posthumanity will likely be this century. Posthumanity will vastly outnumber and vastly outpower humanity.

As for miracles,
The problem of miracles is more severe than their mere improbability. Postulating their existence brings serious problems. As I've stated previously they provide solid convincing evidence to some(even skeptics) yet are absent in the lives of others, causing the beliefs of some to merely rest on faith(aka, belief without sufficient evidence), while others rests on reason(direct solid evidence.). This implies unfairness.

Another real problem, despite all its efforts the christian faith has been unable to provide solid convincing evidence either to other religions or the scientific world. That means that in terms of real world results, the evidence provided has proven insufficient to convince others. What this means is that practically its claims rests at the same level of credibility as any other religion, from a rational skeptic's point of view. Given that for most people, even believers, the vast majority of religions are fake, this means in terms of evidence God did not provide anything that would make christiany significantly distinguishable from the fakes, in the eyes of rational skeptics.

If God is ok with providing miracles to some, in some cases even to convince some and answer their skepticism... then why not simply provide clear and simple evidence plain for everyone to see? Why must it all rest on taking the word by faith of some primitive men in some obscure ancient book, which is virtually indistinguishable from other obscure ancient books? Remember you're not asking for faith on God, or miracles, fundamentally deep down you're asking for FAITH IN THE WRITERS, and implicitly in this question you're admitting there is little or no convincing evidence to do so and so your belief should merely rest on their claims of truthfulness alone.... which is quite simply a tough pill to swallow and an unacceptable request for any rational skeptic.




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