36 replies to this topic

[aLurker]

LDN, summary after 4 days.

Up to this post I haven't really noticed much. Not much in terms of side effects or effects either for that matter. Perhaps some difficulty falling asleep but I already had that.

I decided to try out low dose Naltrexone (LDN). Mostly because of anecdotal stories and general curiosity rather than to treat anything serious. Up-regulating beta-endorphins and their receptors seems like a sweet idea even though some research shows me that it might not be all good since beta-endorphins impairs memory retention when injected in rats. Would this be a problem even for natural production of beta-endorphins in humans or am I being overly cautious here? Will my ALCAR mediate this, will Piracetam affect it somehow too or should I supplement with something else? It is probably paranoia though: endorphins are released when you are subjected to new experiences and we seem to remember them just fine, no one has complained that their memory got worse on LDN - rather the opposite, injecting large amounts of anything into rats isn't comparable to natural production in humans and much have a U curve response. Any thoughts regarding this are welcome.

Even so, naloxone and naltrexone might have beneficial effects on cognition so might LDN be counter-productive here if you are entirely healthy? I haven't really noticed any differences cognitively yet though and all anecdotal reports are very positive when it comes to cognition.

Below are my overly detailed and unedited notes so far after 4 days. My sleep might have suffered some but it was pretty FUBAR to begin with, I've got melatonin inbound though.


Unedited notes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LDN
Okay. I’ve got 50mg dissolved in 50ml in my fridge.
I probably have delayed sleep phase syndrome (every symptom fit but there is no point in getting a diagnosis really) so I normally don’t get sleepy until 3:30 or so. Perhaps this will affect the dosage timing since LDN is supposed to be taken at 11 p.m. before going to sleep. A new day in this log begins when I decide it is “morning”; probably when I wake up and brush my teeth.

Day 1, First dose, 11 p.m.
Took 1.5 mg in a glass of water, tastes a little bitter despite the dilution but not too bad.
11:06 Finished the glass and started watching Salt with Angelina Jolie.
11:11 No difference whatsoever.
11:15 Impatient about the fact that I’m not getting any effects. Considering if I should take an additional 1.5mg later tonight since I don’t seem to be getting any acute side effects. Most people mention they get restless and can’t sleep, well I couldn’t really sleep to begin with so what’s the difference.
11:27 I guess the movie is ok so far. Nothing to report on the LDN, I feel exactly the same as half an hour ago. Tried pinching my arm and it feels like usual.
00:00 I’ll probably remain sleepless for a few hours either way so I’ll just take another 1.5 mg and see what happens. The movie just got a little more interesting. I might feel a little bit more when I pinch myself but it seems mostly the same.
00:05 I just started sipping on a glass with another 1.5mg for a total daily dose of 3mg.
00:48 The movie was pretty good if one likes Hollywood action movies. I haven’t felt any effects at all from the LDN. I’m considering if I should try to get some sleep even if I’m not sleepy, I never am at this time of night though.
01:03 To engage in some wishful thinking: I hope the reason I don’t feel any different is because my endorphin production is quite low at the moment so the difference for me subjectively is basically none. Since my baseline is so low I might stand to benefit much from LDN.
Another hypothesis is that my natural peak of endorphin production is delayed like my sleep cycle and therefore I should take the LDN much later to get optimal results.
01:23 I’m going to try to get some sleep just to check if I can fall asleep already.
02:38 I can’t sleep at all. Whether or not the LDN is at fault won’t be known until 03:30 or so when I usually get tired. By then the LDN might have worn off though, which is kind of why I’m doing this in the first place.
02:43 I might be having some slight pain in my chest. So slight I probably shouldn’t even have mentioned them.
02:51 Eating scrambled eggs to get sleepier. Tastes really good, perhaps the Naltrexone has worn off by now, I’ll try to eat something tasty an hour after taking it next time.
04:30+ Managed to sleep sometime after 04:30, not sure when.

Day 2
I slept really deep until 10:30 when I awoke and couldn’t get back to sleep. I awoke in a good mood and without any lingering tiredness to speak of. I guess I’ll crash later during the day instead.
4:00-4:30 p.m. Took a nap, I feel totally alert until I fall asleep. The sleep seems deep and dreamless, like someone knocked me out for 30 min. The sleep during the night felt the same way, really deep like I simply lost time.
11:00 p.m. Took 3 mg
00:48 Nothing at all to report really, I feel the same as always. If someone slipped me LDN I would be none the wiser. I’m going to make some herbal tea with xylitol now to see if that can make me somewhat sleepier though.
I went to bed at about 01:30, laid awake thinking I wasn’t really tired and then I suddenly fell asleep.

Day 3
Although I awoke a couple of times and had to go to the bathroom once I finally got out of bed at about 12:30 p.m. I guess I had a sleep deficit from last night. I noticed some slight muscle twitches in my left tricep in the morning. Probably nothing but worth noting. I can remember a dream from this morning. My throat is somewhat more sore than usual, I hope it is a case of “it gets worse before it gets better”.
I took 3 mg at 11 p.m.
Been surfing the web trying to find out how beta-endorphins affect memory. It doesn’t look too good actually even though the results are a bit unclear. Found some interesting stuff though.
03:30 Went to bed. Way too late, didn’t take too long for me to fall asleep though.
07:30 Forced myself out of bed since I have to be up the same time tomorrow, this is just practice.
12:00 Really sleepy
13:30-16:00 long nap
11 p.m. Took 3 mg of LDN
00:00 Tried to sleep. Key word: tried.
I was awake for probably over an hour before I managed to get some sleep.

Day 4
Had to go up early at 6:30.
All the other nootropics such as Piracetam, ALCAR and Deprenyl served me well today in combination with a cup of white tea to really kick things up a notch. No fatigue whatsoever all day so far even if my sleep habits probably are unsustainable in the long run. I hope I get my melatonin soon. It is past 6 p.m. right now.

[NR2(x)]

Great log good to see, beta endorphins do decrease some forms of memory through deminished Long term potentiation but enhanced metabolic effects may commensate and actually increase memory. What do you think beta endorphins bind to?

[chrono]

Would this be a problem even for natural production of beta-endorphins in humans or am I being overly cautious here? Will my ALCAR mediate this, will Piracetam affect it somehow too or should I supplement with something else?

Good questions! Unfortunately, that paper didn't test the usage of ACh precursors, just a couple of selective agonists. ALCAR should certainly increase the production/release of ACh; if you're really worried about it, you might add a dash of choline bitartrate to cover all the bases. Though I think your sensibility is correct, that rebound upregulation is unlikely to have the same impact as direct administration.

OTOH, this study found that naloxone (a more-competitive opioid antagonist) actually improved memory. So together with the previous paper, this might indeed suggest that any amount of beta-endorphins interferes with memory acquisition (though of course, the practical extent is probably quite small). This raises the possibility that, while mood boost occurs the next day (in rebound), actual cognitive enhancement (via this mechanism, at least) occurs during the phase of actual effect.

Looking forward to your observations!

Edited by chrono, 25 August 2010 - 08:19 AM.

[aLurker]

@chrono, thanks for providing a link to support my vague statement that higher doses of naloxone and naltrexone might have beneficial effects on cognition. Zagon has done some tests on rats which show the benefits of high dose Naltrexone too. About the ALCAR, yeah perhaps there are better supplements for this kind of thing although I hope and think it will help this hypothetical issue some.

It is also kind of worrisome that I feel really alert and clear headed right after I've taken the daily Naltrexone dose, I guess the opposite of brain fog. I'll be sure to keep my eyes open for changes although the effects from the LDN are pretty non-existent so far.

Exactly how LDN works or the relationship between beta-endorphins and memory are both very much unknown at present though. The numerous benefits LDN might have should be enough to offset my previously stated concerns. Improving general health could have very beneficial effects on cognition if you have anything seriously wrong with you and although I personally don't think so, I hope LDN will yield a net benefit regarding my cognitive abilities, otherwise I'll ditch this.

More on beta-endorphins: some bad and some good. Those studies put together are seriously confusing to me. One states that beta-endorphins from running are required for hippocampal cell proliferation yet the other clearly states that blocking them yields a threefold increase in neurogenesis in vitro (in accordance with the in vivo studies showing memory improvement by blocking)? I'd very much like that explained to me.

Day 4 continued:
11 p.m. Took my daily 3 mg
01:00 Went to bed. No idea when I fell asleep, probably earlier than usual though.

Day 5
Got out of bed at 11:30. Quite late but I managed to sleep very well and I've probably mediated my sleep deficit from last night.
My throat is significantly more sore than usual, could be stress or it could be flaring up due to LDN. My tonsils are often sore and it is one of the things I hope the LDN will improve.

[chrono]

Those studies put together are seriously confusing to me. One states that beta-endorphins from running are required for hippocampal cell proliferation yet the other clearly states that blocking them yields a threefold increase in neurogenesis in vitro (in accordance with the in vivo studies showing memory improvement by blocking)? I'd very much like that explained to me.

My, another interesting question! That 2003 paper is a little confusing, and I think the full results would be necessary to explain.

What I gather from the full text of the second paper is that beta-endorphins are capable of a differential effect on different stages of neurogenesis (proliferation, differentiation (this stage called neurogenesis if cells become neurons), and survival over different time periods). In the fourth section of the discussion, they mention that endorphin knockout mice have the same levels of final neurons produced (neurogenesis) as controls, and suggest a number of compensatory mechanisms by which this might occur (probably an increase in survival rate). This certainly doesn't explain why blockade of MOR increased genesis of neurons threefold, when in the same study they suggest a positive correlation between endorphins and proliferation.

My guess would be that in vitro, the model they used was an incomplete representation of this complex system, and some of the regulatory/homeostatic mechanisms which normally tightly control hippocampal neurogenesis were either not present, or over-compensated in a strange vector.

A few more papers:

• Opioid-induced proliferation through the MAPK pathway in cultures of adult hippocampal progenitors - naloxone inhibits proliferation
• Defensive behavior and hippocampal cell proliferation: differential modulation by naltrexone during stress - naloxone inhibits proliferation
• Knockout of the mu opioid receptor enhances the survival of adult-generated hippocampal granule cell neurons - MOR knockout mice enjoyed increased neuron survival (interesting result)

NE may also be implicated in this along with ACh [1] [2]

[aLurker]

Another study about beta-endorphins in rats. This one seems to indicate there is a U curve response although I find it worrisome that the low dose actually had some negative effects too. No idea if this "low" dose is low compared to anything that might occur naturally though. Point of administration also seems to be a factor according to this and other studies so naturally administrated beta-endorphins might not negatively affect memory at all.

I don't want to scare people of LDN just because of my hypothetical borderline paranoid concern about memory since the potential upside of LDN is huge for some people. Depression and stress harms cognition, memory and neurogenesis immensely and improved mood is common on LDN. My mood was pretty good going into this though (probably due to the 1.5mg/day of Deprenyl I'm still taking). My mood is still good if not great although I don't know if LDN has had any effect here yet since I felt pretty good going into this. Beta-endorphins certainly seem to play a role in major depression disorder though so LDN shows potential to improve cognition for anyone who suffers from this, that entire article is an interesting read about beta-endorphins which summarises much so I'd recommend it to anyone with access.

Ok I just saw that chrono contributed with a great post about this now. Thanks man, I do have access to everything and more so I guess I have some more reading to do, especially with all those links :D

From a glance at what you posted it seems even clearer that exogenously administrated beta-endorphins aren't really a good comparison to our bodies natural administration of them since our bodies probably regulate this by very complex mechanisms. So while increased beta-endorphins might not be directly harmful and even helpful in some regards I still can't figure out why blocking opiate receptors could improve memory.

I'll get back to you when I've read some more about this.

[chrono]

I don't want to scare people of LDN just because of my hypothetical borderline paranoid concern about memory since the potential upside of LDN is huge for some people.

Absolutely not! This is a model discussion, and we should pursue possible downsides to these useful substances with the most vigor. Even if there is an ostensibly counterproductive mechanism at work, it could be (and probably is) very small, and could easily be outweighed by the positive effects. OTOH, such mechanisms may be a deciding factor for someone like you, if you continue to not feel very much from it. I've put all these papers on my reference list; I haven't been to the library in like 3 months, so hopefully I can make a pilgrimage soon.

Edited by chrono, 25 August 2010 - 02:18 PM.
clarity

[medievil]

There's some interesting info here, i'm interested in giving this a try will be following you aLurker.

[aLurker]

Day 5 cont.
My throat got a lot better a short while after waking up, but it's always worst in the morning anyway.
I would actually upgrade my mood today from good to great. I've also lowered my Deprenyl to 1 mg, might kick it up later though but I feel this is enough for the time being since it mainly seems to improve my mood and energy. I might be getting some effect from LDN now with the improved mood although a baseline with Deprenyl makes it very hard to attribute any mood elevation to LDN, although I'm tempted.

11 p.m. Took 3mg and ate some meatballs about half an hour afterwards. I have no idea how long it takes for it to kick in but the meatballs tasted great.

01:30 still awake, should probably try to get some sleep.

[aLurker]

I didn't fall asleep until 3 a.m. or so which is kind of bad :/

Day 6
Got out of bed at 11-12 or so, throat better than last morning although could've been better.
I don't really seem to wake up until my first dose of ALCAR in the morning, it's to me what a cup of coffee is to regular people. Felt much like yesterday, not much to add really.
Took 3 mg at 22:45ish. I wonder if another dosage would be better for me. I think I'll continue with this dosage for now though. Perhaps I'll adjust it after I get my melatonin and start trying that out for my delayed sleep phase. I have no idea how long it should take for the LDN to show full effect for someone who is relatively healthy but I'll give this a while longer since the side effects are pretty much non-existent and it seems to make me kind of perky. I have been quite busy with other stuff but I hope to get around to doing some more research on whether chronically elevated beta-endorphins would be clear cut beneficial for someone relatively healthy. So far I've taken a fairly cautious route in my nootropic endeavours here and LDN is probably the most experimental thing I've tried so far.

[adamh]

It takes a while to kick in, you sound a little impatient. Many sources I've read said it takes up to several months or more. I gradually upped my dose and it's at .85 mg per day now. I'm amazed at people who take 3 mg to start right off the bat. And then notice nothing! Oh well. If you bought a supply it will last you months at least so why toss it out?

You said early on you usually don't get to sleep until 3:30 and in your last post you said you couldn't sleep until 3 which was bad. For some people it does not affect sleep, I seem to be sensitive to most things.

I'm going to keep gradually upping the dose and hope to be at 1.5 in a couple months. I may keep upping it and try for 3 mg per day to see if I get nerve benefits. Anyone have an opinion on that? Most say they get lots of results at 1.5 mg. I'm afraid I'd start getting major sides if I raised it too high. But I'm more afraid of no benefit. It does seem to help libido, motivation is hard to tell. Mood is ok but I've been taking st johns lately. It definitely helps with alergies. I use to have a sneezing fit once or twice a day, now it's way down.

[aLurker]

It takes a while to kick in, you sound a little impatient. Many sources I've read said it takes up to several months or more. I gradually upped my dose and it's at .85 mg per day now. I'm amazed at people who take 3 mg to start right off the bat. And then notice nothing! Oh well. If you bought a supply it will last you months at least so why toss it out?

You said early on you usually don't get to sleep until 3:30 and in your last post you said you couldn't sleep until 3 which was bad. For some people it does not affect sleep, I seem to be sensitive to most things.

I'm going to keep gradually upping the dose and hope to be at 1.5 in a couple months. I may keep upping it and try for 3 mg per day to see if I get nerve benefits. Anyone have an opinion on that? Most say they get lots of results at 1.5 mg. I'm afraid I'd start getting major sides if I raised it too high. But I'm more afraid of no benefit. It does seem to help libido, motivation is hard to tell. Mood is ok but I've been taking st johns lately. It definitely helps with alergies. I use to have a sneezing fit once or twice a day, now it's way down.

You're right, I'm impatient. I'm amazed you still take such a low dose. Please for the love of god bump it up to something that doesn't make me bite my tongue in fear of being impolite and rude. At least you are being honest and admitting it is fear holding you back. The side effects are only temporary and a sleepless night is pretty close to a worst case scenario. So unless it makes your head explode please kick it up a notch to 1.5+ mg. Aren't you curious what effects it might have? Curiosity might kill cats but fear kills minds.

[babcock]

It takes a while to kick in, you sound a little impatient. Many sources I've read said it takes up to several months or more. I gradually upped my dose and it's at .85 mg per day now. I'm amazed at people who take 3 mg to start right off the bat. And then notice nothing! Oh well. If you bought a supply it will last you months at least so why toss it out?

You said early on you usually don't get to sleep until 3:30 and in your last post you said you couldn't sleep until 3 which was bad. For some people it does not affect sleep, I seem to be sensitive to most things.

I'm going to keep gradually upping the dose and hope to be at 1.5 in a couple months. I may keep upping it and try for 3 mg per day to see if I get nerve benefits. Anyone have an opinion on that? Most say they get lots of results at 1.5 mg. I'm afraid I'd start getting major sides if I raised it too high. But I'm more afraid of no benefit. It does seem to help libido, motivation is hard to tell. Mood is ok but I've been taking st johns lately. It definitely helps with alergies. I use to have a sneezing fit once or twice a day, now it's way down.

You're right, I'm impatient. I'm amazed you still take such a low dose. Please for the love of god bump it up to something that doesn't make me bite my tongue in fear of being impolite and rude. At least you are being honest and admitting it is fear holding you back. The side effects are only temporary and a sleepless night is pretty close to a worst case scenario. So unless it makes your head explode please kick it up a notch to 1.5+ mg. Aren't you curious what effects it might have? Curiosity might kill cats but fear kills minds.

aLurker, not to get off topic but are you taking your melatonin yet? How is it affecting you? I took mine a half doses (I think 2.5 mg) and it still made me comatose for about 10 hours every night. I've decided not to use it until/if I start having trouble sleeping when I get older.

[aLurker]

aLurker, not to get off topic but are you taking your melatonin yet? How is it affecting you? I took mine a half doses (I think 2.5 mg) and it still made me comatose for about 10 hours every night. I've decided not to use it until/if I start having trouble sleeping when I get older.

No I haven't got it yet, I ordered from iherb and they take a while to ship here although I should get it early next week. Don't worry, I'll be sure to mention it here in the log when I get it.

Be careful with melatonin. I'm only going to take it since I seem to have DSPS, the only sleep disorder melatonin shows any significant improvement against in tests. Even with that 0.3mg (300mcg) is enough! Even 0.3 mg should be enough to elevate your melatonin somewhere above naturally occurring levels, 2.5mg will sky rocket your levels into space and beyond. Timing is also important although a little bit more unclear, perhaps a couple of hours before you plan to sleep.

I plan on dissolving 3mg pills in 30ml of water. I think this should work since melatonin is water soluble. With a bottle of pills I've got something like 1800 days worth of melatonin for ten bucks including shipping.

Anyway, I wouldn't take melatonin unless I had trouble sleeping even though it might have some benefits. If you have trouble getting to sleep it might help you though although you should definitely go easy on the dose there. Start somewhere below 0.3mg and work your way up to something that works if you plan on using it.

Edited by aLurker, 27 August 2010 - 02:57 PM.

[Animal]

It takes a while to kick in, you sound a little impatient. Many sources I've read said it takes up to several months or more. I gradually upped my dose and it's at .85 mg per day now. I'm amazed at people who take 3 mg to start right off the bat. And then notice nothing! Oh well. If you bought a supply it will last you months at least so why toss it out?

You said early on you usually don't get to sleep until 3:30 and in your last post you said you couldn't sleep until 3 which was bad. For some people it does not affect sleep, I seem to be sensitive to most things.

I'm going to keep gradually upping the dose and hope to be at 1.5 in a couple months. I may keep upping it and try for 3 mg per day to see if I get nerve benefits. Anyone have an opinion on that? Most say they get lots of results at 1.5 mg. I'm afraid I'd start getting major sides if I raised it too high. But I'm more afraid of no benefit. It does seem to help libido, motivation is hard to tell. Mood is ok but I've been taking st johns lately. It definitely helps with alergies. I use to have a sneezing fit once or twice a day, now it's way down.

You're right, I'm impatient. I'm amazed you still take such a low dose. Please for the love of god bump it up to something that doesn't make me bite my tongue in fear of being impolite and rude. At least you are being honest and admitting it is fear holding you back. The side effects are only temporary and a sleepless night is pretty close to a worst case scenario. So unless it makes your head explode please kick it up a notch to 1.5+ mg. Aren't you curious what effects it might have? Curiosity might kill cats but fear kills minds.

Nice to see that my attitude has rubbed off on you somewhat, apart from the whole biting your tongue thing of course.

[aLurker]

Animal. I can assure you the biting is only an idiom here. I would never hurt my poor tongue just because of others' behaviour, it isn't at fault and shouldn't be punished. Although I do bite my tongue literally in some situations to avoid inappropriate laughter. But I digress.

From this by Dr. McCandless. Using LDN to treat autistic children.

The immediate positive mood/cognitive/relating effects seen in many children starting this
intervention is unlikely to be from immune enhancement showing up so quickly. For other
autoimmune studies using LDN, the evidence is that the optimum immune response can take four
to six months. In private correspondence with earlier autism researchers Drs. Panksepp and
Shattock, they postulated that the LDN therapeutic effect with the rebound of endogenous opioids
in the brain “loosens up” the opioid social-reward systems so children who were not connecting
to the many known opioid based social rewards in the environment begin to respond to those
rewards. Both these researchers emphasized the importance of positive social reactions being
reinforced and enhanced substantially by social support and encouragement, helping the new
behavior become part of positive behavior modification.

A significant proportion of children
upon starting LDN show not only some increased hyperactivity and sleep changes, but a bout of
what seems like “infection activation” in the form of a cold, fever blister, yeast flare-up and other
reactions. These do not seem to be contagious and are usually short-lived, followed by a burst of
improved language, cognition, and socially seeking behavior. More recent input about this
transition effect indicates that it is probably a “perturbation” of the immune status to another level
of functioning, and some pathogen levels previously immunosuppressed may be disturbed while
immune elements are changing. Now, instead of immediately lowering the dose, I am asking
parents to use the full dosage quite soon, which seems to cut down this time of adjustment for
most of the children, not all. Some do need to go down in dosage, but I urge parents to try to stay
the course if possible as I suspect the maximum immune benefits occur with full dose, whereas
the immediate social-reward and cheerfulness effects occur on ultra-tiny doses without
maximizing immune benefits for long-term healing.

I might be experiencing some of that transitional behaviour she describes in the form of mild cold symptoms (little bit more stuffy nose and sore throat) although these are very mild, I might also be a tad more hyperactive after about 4 p.m. or so. My general behaviour is certainly a bit more "perky" because of my great mood and slight hyperactivity. It is certainly comforting to hear that this is a transitional phase since I'm kind of restless right now.

Her hypothesis at the end of the quote also seems to corroborate what adamh said, that ultra-tiny doses can have immediate effects. Although she is probably right that to achieve maximum benefit a proper LDN dose is better.

Edited by aLurker, 27 August 2010 - 04:09 PM.

[babcock]

aLurker, not to get off topic but are you taking your melatonin yet? How is it affecting you? I took mine a half doses (I think 2.5 mg) and it still made me comatose for about 10 hours every night. I've decided not to use it until/if I start having trouble sleeping when I get older.

No I haven't got it yet, I ordered from iherb and they take a while to ship here although I should get it early next week. Don't worry, I'll be sure to mention it here in the log when I get it.

Be careful with melatonin. I'm only going to take it since I seem to have DSPS, the only sleep disorder melatonin shows any significant improvement against in tests. Even with that 0.3mg (300mcg) is enough! Even 0.3 mg should be enough to elevate your melatonin somewhere above naturally occurring levels, 2.5mg will sky rocket your levels into space and beyond. Timing is also important although a little bit more unclear, perhaps a couple of hours before you plan to sleep.

I plan on dissolving 3mg pills in 30ml of water. I think this should work since melatonin is water soluble. With a bottle of pills I've got something like 1800 days worth of melatonin for ten bucks including shipping.

Anyway, I wouldn't take melatonin unless I had trouble sleeping even though it might have some benefits. If you have trouble getting to sleep it might help you though although you should definitely go easy on the dose there. Start somewhere below 0.3mg and work your way up to something that works if you plan on using it.

Thanks for the info. I definitely have decided to put it down until the day comes when I actually stop/have problems sleeping for 8+ hours. But as of now, that day isn't today.

[adamh]

"At least you are being honest and admitting it is fear holding you back. The side effects are only temporary and a sleepless night is pretty close to a worst case scenario."

Ummm, I never said it was fear holding me back, it was the already present side effect of insomnia which I have spoken of in many threads on the subject. Have you ever been in desperate need of sleep but doomed to only lay there all night while your mind whirls? If you have experienced that, then you would not tell me it is temporary or nothing to worry about. This has happened more than once on ldn for me. Yes, I've tried relaxation, stretching and yoga before bed and not eating too close to bed time. Even when I use something to sleep, if it is not strong enough I get another sleepless night or a night of poor sleep. Speak from experience not from what you have heard, please.

I'm up to .9 mg per day and I'm not sure I can maintain that level but I'll try.

Where is your evidence that more than .3 mg per day of melatonin will send your levels into "space and beyond"? Is this something you heard? Melatonin is very safe, I use 1 mg per day. Please try a gram a day so we can see what it does to you.

[aLurker]

"At least you are being honest and admitting it is fear holding you back. The side effects are only temporary and a sleepless night is pretty close to a worst case scenario."

Ummm, I never said it was fear holding me back, it was the already present side effect of insomnia which I have spoken of in many threads on the subject. Have you ever been in desperate need of sleep but doomed to only lay there all night while your mind whirls? If you have experienced that, then you would not tell me it is temporary or nothing to worry about. This has happened more than once on ldn for me. Yes, I've tried relaxation, stretching and yoga before bed and not eating too close to bed time. Even when I use something to sleep, if it is not strong enough I get another sleepless night or a night of poor sleep. Speak from experience not from what you have heard, please.

And you also stated previously:

Most say they get lots of results at 1.5 mg. I'm afraid I'd start getting major sides if I raised it too high. But I'm more afraid of no benefit.

Being afraid of side effects sounds like fear to me.

A sleepless night might seem bad to you but I would still call that a temporary side effect. There are medications that can give you terrible side effects that lingers for months or more after you've ceased taking them. And if it seems relevant to you I am speaking from experience here, both about sleepless nights and about terrible side effects lingering for months. Thankfully I'm fine now but believe me when I say that a sleepless night of racing thoughts is NOTHING compared to the side effects of some other drugs. Stop whining.

I'm up to .9 mg per day and I'm not sure I can maintain that level but I'll try.

Good luck. Perhaps a couple of mg every other day would work better for you, it does for some.

Where is your evidence that more than .3 mg per day of melatonin will send your levels into "space and beyond"? Is this something you heard? Melatonin is very safe, I use 1 mg per day. Please try a gram a day so we can see what it does to you.

This is decent summary and this picture should give you the general idea:

[adamh]

"Being afraid of side effects sounds like fear to me."

When you have already experienced the side effects, its a reasonable thing to be concerned about. You try to make it sound irrational or trivial. Your fear of melatonin is irrational since there is no evidence to support what you say and you have not experienced any such side effects. I have experienced what I speak of on the ldn and so have many other people. Try reading the whole ldn thread. If it's bad at a low dose, it's reasonable to assume it will be worse at a higher dose. At the very least, I will slowly raise it and not go there all at once.

"A sleepless night might seem bad to you but I would still call that a temporary side effect."

And your opinion is based on what exactly? I have had a number of sleepless nights on this stuff as I already explained. Try a week of no sleep or very little sleep and get back to me on how its nothing to worry about. Just to give you some idea, it's a lot like having the flu only less fun.

Edited by adamh, 27 August 2010 - 07:54 PM.

[aLurker]

Your fear of melatonin is irrational since there is no evidence to support what you say and you have not experienced any such side effects.

I've already bought some melatonin and I plan to take a dose shown to work according to research. That doesn't seem irrational nor fearful at all to me.

I haven't even mentioned anything about side effects from melatonin in this thread, I merely informed my friend babcock about some research showing that his dose might be unnecessarily high. If you still feel my statements here regarding melatonin are unsupported I feel the urge to inform you that the underlined parts of my posts are not for emphasis; they are links to sources.

Back to the actual log:

Day 6 cont.
I fell asleep at around 03:30 or so when I finally went to bed, didn't really feel tired before then.

Day 7
Woke up at 10 or so, felt like I should sleep some more. This might have been a bad idea in hindsight since I slept until noon and I was really tired when I managed to get out of bed, even after taking my morning ALCAR and Piracetam. I took a nap at about 2 p.m. and began to feel human at about 4 p.m. I also had REALLY cold hands and feet although these became increasingly warmer and warmer throughout the day and at night they were fine again. To speculate this might have been a minor viral flare up, hard to tell. My throat has also been a little sore today.

11 p.m. Took 3 mg of LDN as usual.

I kind of dislike the fact that I feel gradually better and better throughout the day, hopefully my body will adapt and bounce back quicker so I'll feel human upon waking up rather than later during the day. I also can't wait to get my melatonin (although I have no choice).

[Logan]

aLurker, why again are you taking LDN?

[aLurker]

aLurker, why again are you taking LDN?

A valid question since most people on LDN are trying to cure a specific condition. Here is what I mentioned in the original post:

I decided to try out low dose Naltrexone (LDN). Mostly because of anecdotal stories and general curiosity rather than to treat anything serious.

So basically for general quality of life rather than anything else, mostly out of curiosity to see if it offers any noticeable benefits for someone who is relatively healthy. That is also why I'm slightly paranoid regarding potential side effects long-term, since I really don't need LDN to fix a specific condition which makes the potential upside somewhat diminished in comparison to others taking it.

[Logan]

aLurker, why again are you taking LDN?

A valid question since most people on LDN are trying to cure a specific condition. Here is what I mentioned in the original post:

I decided to try out low dose Naltrexone (LDN). Mostly because of anecdotal stories and general curiosity rather than to treat anything serious.

So basically for general quality of life rather than anything else, mostly out of curiosity to see if it offers any noticeable benefits for someone who is relatively healthy. That is also why I'm slightly paranoid regarding potential side effects long-term, since I really don't need LDN to fix a specific condition which makes the potential upside somewhat diminished in comparison to others taking it.

Are you buying it online?

[aLurker]

Yep.

[Animal]

Do you have any kind of mood disorder? If not, I would seriously consider how you expect to benefit from this. Most individuals who have experienced a positive effect on mood define it as very subtle, not something a euthymic individual would really notice. Especially if your mood is already enhanced by the deprenyl.

Taking a pharmaceutical just for the sake of it, because it's cheap, is really not a healthy practice to promote and you should ask yourself what insecurity you are truly trying to compensate for by taking this.

[aLurker]

Do you have any kind of mood disorder? If not, I would seriously consider how you expect to benefit from this. Most individuals who have experienced a positive effect on mood define it as very subtle, not something a euthymic individual would really notice. Especially if your mood is already enhanced by the deprenyl.

Taking a pharmaceutical just for the sake of it, because it's cheap, is really not a healthy practice to promote and you should ask yourself what insecurity you are truly trying to compensate for by taking this.

You spoil me with your flattering questions. Nah, no mood disorder. I had some symptoms of depression while I researched this and Deprenyl. The Deprenyl seems to have taken care of that pretty nicely so I probably could have skipped LDN.

I can see the ambiguity so to clarify: I'm by no means promoting the practise of taking anything just for the sake of it and so far I wouldn't recommend LDN for healthy people. For anyone with MS/Crohn's or something serious the risk/reward profile certainly looks a lot more beneficial since there is much to gain then.

If I had to choose an insecurity I would say a slight case of boredom, otherwise my primary reasons/excuses for trying LDN are mostly minor health related issues. Very minor issues, like my reoccurring sore tonsils, that might be the result some viral activity so I figured LDN might help with that and other trivial stuff. Especially compared to the more common reasons to take LDN. I really don't feel like writing a wish list on what effects I would like LDN to have on me. I'm saving that for Santa. I'd rather just log what differences I observe during this period. I'll at least give this a proper try since I've got several months worth of supply. If you or anyone else have more specific concerns regarding LDN and its potentially unwanted effects they are most welcome to inform me.

[aLurker]

Sorry about the lack of updates, I've been busy with other stuff.
The last few days have followed the same pattern, I take 3 mg at 11 p.m. and go to bed at about 4 a.m.
Two things concern me, my day has been slipping from the usual bedtime of 3 a.m. or so to a 4:30ish bedtime instead. I also seem to be getting more restless and hyper on this. I'm considering if I should cut down on the LDN to 2 mg or so to see if that helps a little. I would still be in the therapeutic range and it might alleviate the hyperactivity. For instance walking back and forth in my room at midnight just because I'm so hyper is slightly annoying, especially when the benefits of the drug are negligible at best so far. I'll give this some more time, perhaps at a lower dose before I totally quit it, but so far this isn't working out as I as hoped it would. My appetite might have taken a turn for the worse too, although I really don't mind so far.

Right now:
occasionally chilly hands/feet
even harder to get to sleep

I feel increasingly better from the moment I wake up, my hands get warmer, my mood gets better. Especially after 4 p.m., everything seems to get better after that.

Right after taking the dose I'm really sharp and alert. I can plow through a lot of information while feeling really alert but I open lots of tabs in firefox and I get all hyper physically.

I hope these downsides disappear with use. I've got my melatonin now so I'll give that a shot tonight.

[aLurker]

Yesterday
10:00 p.m. Took 0.2mg of melatonin
23:40 Felt calmer and less restless. Probably could have gone to sleep here if I tried. Not really tired though.
00:00 Took 2 mg of LDN. Less restless than I've been previously after taking LDN.
I actually felt like I could've gone to bed earlier which is very rare, I should've gone to bed earlier at about 23:40 or so since I probably could've slept then. I stayed up until 01:30 before I decided to lay down in bed and give sleep a chance. It was much easier to get to sleep than usual and it probably was the melatonin since I've tried 2 mg of naltrexone before and I didn't sleep until much later then. 01:30 is a huge improvement over my usual bedtime and I think I can get it closer to midnight if I just try.

Today
The bad news is that I took a nap after lunch. The great news is that I felt pretty well rested in the morning, slept excellently and woke up before 8 a.m. I hope the nap was merely because of the lack of sleep. If I lay down in bed at midnight or so I'll probably have a pretty normal sleep pattern! I'll try to tweak a few variables such as:
1) when I go to bed
2) when I take the melatonin
3) a higher dose of melatonin. 0.3 mg was used in the study I linked to earlier and melatonin is pretty well tolerated at much higher doses too (even if the melatonin levels get unnaturally high) so I might bump it up a bit, I'll try to keep it as low as possible since there is no reason to use a higher dose than is effective for me personally, the placebo effect doesn't really work with insomnia
4) Lower the LDN to 1.5 mg or skip it entirely.

My hands are kind of cold today and that's annoying. It was worse in the morning and seems to be fine now. I complained about that before and I wonder if it might be the LDN. Shouldn't be but could very well be.

Not really much to say about the LDN right now. I'll keep you posted but I suspect the following days will be mostly about melatonin rather than LDN. Perhaps I should've written about this in another thread but nevermind.

[adamh]

Don't be discouraged, no harm in trying things. Well, actually there is some risk in everything from side effects we know about to the unknown. But I'm interested in everyones experiences. May I make a few comments and suggestions?

1. Stick with a dose for a while. Jumping around from 1.5 to 3 back to 2, back to 1.5 tells you nothing. Whatever benefits you hope to get will likely come from steady use over time.

2. Are you certain you got the real thing? You have not reported definite results and there is a possibility you got a counterfeit. What did the packaging look like?

I'm up to 1 mg per day, having slowly raised the dose. The sides are no worse so perhaps I'm getting used to it. I hope that 1.5 will be the magic dose and I'll get more results at that level. I should be there around the first of oct. I may keep raising the level up to eventually 3 mg per day. If no definite results with that, I will stop. By then I will be close to the end of my initial supply. I would have no problem reordering if it works.

I think I will get some lyrica to test in about a month. I see these glowing recommendations for a sleep aid, which I can use. It's primarily prescribed for nerve pain, which I have. Two benefits rolled into one. It may make it harder to tell if the ldn is working or not. But I will probably only use lyrica once a week to avoid tolerance and because of the cost.