27 replies to this topic

[choqueiro]

Lion's mane increases the production of Nerve Growth Factor and ALCAR also. So is there any difference between them?? It is stupid to take both of them (if they do the same?? Any recommendation??

thanks

[chrono]

They both induce greater release of NGF in the brain, though there isn't enough data to show whether or not (or to what extent) this actually occurs in humans of different ages. It could be through slightly different mechanisms. The molecules in LM (hericenones and erinacines) are some of the most potent (that is, effect/unit) inducers known, so they might be more effective than ALCAR. However, ALCAR has the added benefit of increasing the brain's sensitivity to NGF (the same amount does more "work"). Because of this, they would probably synergize very effectively (not to mention that ALCAR has many other neurological mechanisms and benefits).

That being said, I feel I should point out that the benefits of increasing NGF in the young/healthy are somewhere between speculative and anecdotal. This isn't meant as a disrecommendation, but merely in the interest of pointing out what we can say to be true.

There is also one paper I'm aware of which showed that in young rats, an increase of NGF (via direct injection into the brain) decreased the production of acetylcholine. This is a single data point, and even more speculative when extrapolated to human use, but is a possibility nonetheless. ALCAR increases ACh through several mechanisms, and its efficacy is most proven in its ability to ameliorate different kinds of deficits (chemical, age-related, etc). For this reason, I would would suggest that ALCAR + LM is not only synergistic, but has a good chance of obviating a putative drawback. (I'll post this paper later when I have more time to dig through my notes; it probably deserves its own topic)

[nito]

Finished a bottle if mushroom science lions mane (90) pills) from i herb a few days ago. In the period of taking it i haven't noticed any negative side effects and definitely nothing uplifting. Perhaps it's something that builds up over long term and you won't see it until you do some popper studying and putting your mind to the test.

[chrono]

^^As I've mentioned in the main thread and several other places, Mushroom Science uses a water extraction technique, which pulls an incomplete profile of the relevant molecules. It would be literally at the bottom of the list of all LM products I would recommend.

[golden1]

My experience with lion's mane is pretty noteworthy. I take 2-4 grams before sleeping now, pretty much on whatever days I feel like.. around 2-3 days a week. I feel like I'm sleeping better, but I've also never felt more aware and quick at thinking. My vision is incredibly enhanced. Textures are crisp, almost "pixely" looking because of the amount of detail. Colors are vibrant and everything looks much more like an HDR photo. ( http://www.google.com/images?q=HDR photo )
The most notable visual difference is definitely with depth perception, it is as if my brain is constantly tracking, all simultaneously, the different depths of objects and other things such as protruding branches from bushes and other differences in depth. It actually makes things look different(kind of like the depths pop out at you more) and much much more 3D. I also now see everything at once, or many more things than normal at once, such as all the leaves on a tree I am able to see individually at the same time making things look so much more than just a sense of vision. These visual changes indicate, to me, that positive enhancements are taking place in my brain no doubt. I should also note that they don't go away, they seem like somewhat permanent changes.

When I take aniracetam these effects are multiplied and I'm pretty much in awe of how beautiful the world is.

Good stuff, like always I can't say these are normal effects and whatever, but it's worth trying in my opinion.
(I use MRL bulk hericium)

I did notice that ALCAR enhanced the effect, but that could have been placebo and I don't take it anymore because of side effects.

Edited by golden1, 26 August 2010 - 03:34 PM.

[babcock]

My experience with lion's mane is pretty noteworthy. I take 2-4 grams before sleeping now, pretty much on whatever days I feel like.. around 2-3 days a week. I feel like I'm sleeping better, but I've also never felt more aware and quick at thinking. My vision is incredibly enhanced. Textures are crisp, almost "pixely" looking because of the amount of detail. Colors are vibrant and everything looks much more like an HDR photo. ( http://www.google.com/images?q=HDR photo )
The most notable visual difference is definitely with depth perception, it is as if my brain is constantly tracking, all simultaneously, the different depths of objects and other things such as protruding branches from bushes and other differences in depth. It actually makes things look different(kind of like the depths pop out at you more) and much much more 3D. I also now see everything at once, or many more things than normal at once, such as all the leaves on a tree I am able to see individually at the same time making things look so much more than just a sense of vision. These visual changes indicate, to me, that positive enhancements are taking place in my brain no doubt. I should also note that they don't go away, they seem like somewhat permanent changes.

When I take aniracetam these effects are multiplied and I'm pretty much in awe of how beautiful the world is.

Good stuff, like always I can't say these are normal effects and whatever, but it's worth trying in my opinion.
(I use MRL bulk hericium)

I did notice that ALCAR enhanced the effect, but that could have been placebo and I don't take it anymore because of side effects.

What brand of Lion's Mane are you taking?

Also, not to get off topic, but what side effects are you getting from ALCAR?

[aLurker]

I want to mention that a study on old people showed that one have to remain on Lion's mane in order for the cognitive enhancing effects to remain which might also be true for your altered perception.

teh sauce:

The Yamabushitake group's scores increased with the duration of intake, but at week 4 after the termination of the 16 weeks intake, the scores decreased significantly.

I had a subtle HDR-effect very briefly while on Rhodiola and it was kind of awesome with more saturated colors. This interests me greatly, too bad it is expensive enough to double the cost of my current regimen. I might try it later when I feel I can afford to take this chronically.

[golden1]

My experience with lion's mane is pretty noteworthy. I take 2-4 grams before sleeping now, pretty much on whatever days I feel like.. around 2-3 days a week. I feel like I'm sleeping better, but I've also never felt more aware and quick at thinking. My vision is incredibly enhanced. Textures are crisp, almost "pixely" looking because of the amount of detail. Colors are vibrant and everything looks much more like an HDR photo. ( http://www.google.com/images?q=HDR photo )
The most notable visual difference is definitely with depth perception, it is as if my brain is constantly tracking, all simultaneously, the different depths of objects and other things such as protruding branches from bushes and other differences in depth. It actually makes things look different(kind of like the depths pop out at you more) and much much more 3D. I also now see everything at once, or many more things than normal at once, such as all the leaves on a tree I am able to see individually at the same time making things look so much more than just a sense of vision. These visual changes indicate, to me, that positive enhancements are taking place in my brain no doubt. I should also note that they don't go away, they seem like somewhat permanent changes.

When I take aniracetam these effects are multiplied and I'm pretty much in awe of how beautiful the world is.

Good stuff, like always I can't say these are normal effects and whatever, but it's worth trying in my opinion.
(I use MRL bulk hericium)

I did notice that ALCAR enhanced the effect, but that could have been placebo and I don't take it anymore because of side effects.

What brand of Lion's Mane are you taking?

Also, not to get off topic, but what side effects are you getting from ALCAR?

http://www.mrlusa.com/products_hericium.html

http://www.imminst.o...t-normal-doses/

[golden1]

I want to mention that a study on old people showed that one have to remain on Lion's mane in order for the cognitive enhancing effects to remain which might also be true for your altered perception.

teh sauce:

The Yamabushitake group's scores increased with the duration of intake, but at week 4 after the termination of the 16 weeks intake, the scores decreased significantly.

I had a subtle HDR-effect very briefly while on Rhodiola and it was kind of awesome with more saturated colors. This interests me greatly, too bad it is expensive enough to double the cost of my current regimen. I might try it later when I feel I can afford to take this chronically.

drats. well I'll let you guys know if its permanent when I run out/take a long break.

[aLurker]

drats. well I'll let you guys know if its permanent when I run out/take a long break.

Well, if I was in your situation I would just resume taking it. If supply is an issue perhaps a lower dose will be enough to maintain your gains. I read through some of your old posts and you've obviously already considered doing just that.

Another thing which struck me as somewhat strange was that in the thread where people are asked to choose one noot you didn't go with lion's mane but aniracetam/choline instead. Is it because the effects from lion's mane are subtle or are you simply a great responder to ani? How does lion's mane rank in relation to the other stuff you've tried?

[nito]

^^As I've mentioned in the main thread and several other places, Mushroom Science uses a water extraction technique, which pulls an incomplete profile of the relevant molecules. It would be literally at the bottom of the list of all LM products I would recommend.

Which is on the top of your list?

[nito]

My experience with lion's mane is pretty noteworthy. I take 2-4 grams before sleeping now, pretty much on whatever days I feel like.. around 2-3 days a week. I feel like I'm sleeping better, but I've also never felt more aware and quick at thinking. My vision is incredibly enhanced. Textures are crisp, almost "pixely" looking because of the amount of detail. Colors are vibrant and everything looks much more like an HDR photo. ( http://www.google.com/images?q=HDR photo )
The most notable visual difference is definitely with depth perception, it is as if my brain is constantly tracking, all simultaneously, the different depths of objects and other things such as protruding branches from bushes and other differences in depth. It actually makes things look different(kind of like the depths pop out at you more) and much much more 3D. I also now see everything at once, or many more things than normal at once, such as all the leaves on a tree I am able to see individually at the same time making things look so much more than just a sense of vision. These visual changes indicate, to me, that positive enhancements are taking place in my brain no doubt. I should also note that they don't go away, they seem like somewhat permanent changes.

When I take aniracetam these effects are multiplied and I'm pretty much in awe of how beautiful the world is.

Good stuff, like always I can't say these are normal effects and whatever, but it's worth trying in my opinion.
(I use MRL bulk hericium)

I did notice that ALCAR enhanced the effect, but that could have been placebo and I don't take it anymore because of side effects.

What brand of Lion's Mane are you taking?

Also, not to get off topic, but what side effects are you getting from ALCAR?

http://www.mrlusa.co...s_hericium.html

http://www.imminst.o...t-normal-doses/

wow 79 bucks for 250 gram :o plus the shipping cost over to the uk. Sounds pretty expensive, and will probably be the most costly noot i have ever bought if i purchase it. Is there no cheaper alternative that works the same way? How long have you used it?

[golden1]

wow 79 bucks for 250 gram :o plus the shipping cost over to the uk. Sounds pretty expensive, and will probably be the most costly noot i have ever bought if i purchase it. Is there no cheaper alternative that works the same way? How long have you used it?

they have 2 branches, idk maybe more, this one would be much closer for shipping:
http://www.mycologyr...roduct=Hericium

I've used it around 2 months.

drats. well I'll let you guys know if its permanent when I run out/take a long break.

Well, if I was in your situation I would just resume taking it. If supply is an issue perhaps a lower dose will be enough to maintain your gains. I read through some of your old posts and you've obviously already considered doing just that.

Another thing which struck me as somewhat strange was that in the thread where people are asked to choose one noot you didn't go with lion's mane but aniracetam/choline instead. Is it because the effects from lion's mane are subtle or are you simply a great responder to ani? How does lion's mane rank in relation to the other stuff you've tried?

Well, I consider aniracetam much more "like a drug" (specifically similar to weed, but still very different) in that it has a noticeable mind state, senses are enhanced, and it's more obvious by far than other nootropics for me. Definitely makes my everyday life much more interesting/beautiful and enjoyable and certainly is a very good nootropic for creativity(my best music was made on aniracetam).

Lion's mane has no mind state shift and more of a natural enhancement to it that is easily noticeable(for me! remember some others simply feel tired etc).
certainly at the top of my list with aniracetam for now, I might reflect on it differently later but right now it's showing great effects.

I've tried lots of things by the way.. sulbutiamine, alphagpc, centrophenoxine, hydergine, modafinil, deprenyl, rhodiola, pycnogenol, oxiracetam, piracetam(old favorite, still very good), phenibut, picamillon, idebenone, and probably a couple others that I'm not remembering most are not useful at all to me compared to ani+cdpcholine, lion's mane, and fish oil/epa+dha.

I wish anyone who tries it the best of luck

Edited by chrono, 27 August 2010 - 05:48 AM.
trimmed quote

[nito]

wow 79 bucks for 250 gram :o plus the shipping cost over to the uk. Sounds pretty expensive, and will probably be the most costly noot i have ever bought if i purchase it. Is there no cheaper alternative that works the same way? How long have you used it?

they have 2 branches, idk maybe more, this one would be much closer for shipping:
http://www.mycologyr...roduct=Hericium

I've used it around 2 months.

drats. well I'll let you guys know if its permanent when I run out/take a long break.

Well, if I was in your situation I would just resume taking it. If supply is an issue perhaps a lower dose will be enough to maintain your gains. I read through some of your old posts and you've obviously already considered doing just that.

Another thing which struck me as somewhat strange was that in the thread where people are asked to choose one noot you didn't go with lion's mane but aniracetam/choline instead. Is it because the effects from lion's mane are subtle or are you simply a great responder to ani? How does lion's mane rank in relation to the other stuff you've tried?

Well, I consider aniracetam much more "like a drug" (specifically similar to weed, but still very different) in that it has a noticeable mind state, senses are enhanced, and it's more obvious by far than other nootropics for me. Definitely makes my everyday life much more interesting/beautiful and enjoyable and certainly is a very good nootropic for creativity(my best music was made on aniracetam).

Lion's mane has no mind state shift and more of a natural enhancement to it that is easily noticeable(for me! remember some others simply feel tired etc).
certainly at the top of my list with aniracetam for now, I might reflect on it differently later but right now it's showing great effects.

I've tried lots of things by the way.. sulbutiamine, alphagpc, centrophenoxine, hydergine, modafinil, deprenyl, rhodiola, pycnogenol, oxiracetam, piracetam(old favorite, still very good), phenibut, picamillon, idebenone, and probably a couple others that I'm not remembering most are not useful at all to me compared to ani+cdpcholine, lion's mane, and fish oil/epa+dha.

I wish anyone who tries it the best of luck

Cool. I'm gonna give it a try. I'm also thinking of giving deprenyl, sulbutiamine and aniracetam a go to. I read many positive posts about deprenyl such as better mood and energy with clearer thinking. I'm unsure about ani though because piracetam failed for me. Do you think you can respond to ani if you couldn't to piracetam?

[golden1]

Cool. I'm gonna give it a try. I'm also thinking of giving deprenyl, sulbutiamine and aniracetam a go to. I read many positive posts about deprenyl such as better mood and energy with clearer thinking. I'm unsure about ani though because piracetam failed for me. Do you think you can respond to ani if you couldn't to piracetam?

Yes, I think aniracetam is different enough that you could end up having good effects even if piracetam didn't help. I've convinced 4 of my friends to buy aniracetam and they all love the effects, so I feel like it has a somewhat wide range of likability(I'm surprised more people don't praise it online..)
If it makes you tired and eh at first keep at it and it will change or at least that's what happened to me and one of my friends.

Deprenyl was alright, it really felt like a great change last year when I tried it(still made me somewhat tired sometimes though), but now that I feel much more centered and full of health overall it only makes me feel tired and cloudy. not sure what the reason is behind that. I know cdp-choline increased dopamine receptors in rats( http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez ), maybe that explains the need for less dopamine.. not sure.

[nito]

Cool. I'm gonna give it a try. I'm also thinking of giving deprenyl, sulbutiamine and aniracetam a go to. I read many positive posts about deprenyl such as better mood and energy with clearer thinking. I'm unsure about ani though because piracetam failed for me. Do you think you can respond to ani if you couldn't to piracetam?

Yes, I think aniracetam is different enough that you could end up having good effects even if piracetam didn't help. I've convinced 4 of my friends to buy aniracetam and they all love the effects, so I feel like it has a somewhat wide range of likability(I'm surprised more people don't praise it online..)
If it makes you tired and eh at first keep at it and it will change or at least that's what happened to me and one of my friends.

Deprenyl was alright, it really felt like a great change last year when I tried it(still made me somewhat tired sometimes though), but now that I feel much more centered and full of health overall it only makes me feel tired and cloudy. not sure what the reason is behind that. I know cdp-choline increased dopamine receptors in rats( http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez ), maybe that explains the need for less dopamine.. not sure.

Yea i think i will give aniracetam a go then. I heard deprenyl makes you confident with higher mood and energy which i don't mid. I lack confidence especially infro girls. I get so many opportunities around girls but i always hold back for some reason. Considering the original topic, i will give lions mane a go too. Thanks for the source. Is it better to buy bulk or are the pills just as effective?

[en1gma]

^^As I've mentioned in the main thread and several other places, Mushroom Science uses a water extraction technique, which pulls an incomplete profile of the relevant molecules. It would be literally at the bottom of the list of all LM products I would recommend.

Unfortunately I just bought some of this. Oh well, it was fairly cheap so I can't complain. Do you have any alternative sources that you could recommend?

It would help me greatly! (and some other people as well I'm sure)

[Thorsten3]

My experience with lion's mane is pretty noteworthy. I take 2-4 grams before sleeping now, pretty much on whatever days I feel like.. around 2-3 days a week. I feel like I'm sleeping better, but I've also never felt more aware and quick at thinking. My vision is incredibly enhanced. Textures are crisp, almost "pixely" looking because of the amount of detail. Colors are vibrant and everything looks much more like an HDR photo. ( http://www.google.com/images?q=HDR photo )
The most notable visual difference is definitely with depth perception, it is as if my brain is constantly tracking, all simultaneously, the different depths of objects and other things such as protruding branches from bushes and other differences in depth. It actually makes things look different(kind of like the depths pop out at you more) and much much more 3D. I also now see everything at once, or many more things than normal at once, such as all the leaves on a tree I am able to see individually at the same time making things look so much more than just a sense of vision. These visual changes indicate, to me, that positive enhancements are taking place in my brain no doubt. I should also note that they don't go away, they seem like somewhat permanent changes.

When I take aniracetam these effects are multiplied and I'm pretty much in awe of how beautiful the world is.

Good stuff, like always I can't say these are normal effects and whatever, but it's worth trying in my opinion.
(I use MRL bulk hericium)

I did notice that ALCAR enhanced the effect, but that could have been placebo and I don't take it anymore because of side effects.

What brand of Lion's Mane are you taking?

Also, not to get off topic, but what side effects are you getting from ALCAR?

http://www.mrlusa.co...s_hericium.html

http://www.imminst.o...t-normal-doses/

How much do you take per day of this product? 79bucks is going to be an outlay that has to be worth the bother for me - Will that 250g last you a while? What is the dosage of this stuff anyhow?

[golden1]

I take 2 grams when I take it. roughly 2-3 times a week.

[chrono]

Unfortunately I just bought some of this. Oh well, it was fairly cheap so I can't complain. Do you have any alternative sources that you could recommend?

It would help me greatly! (and some other people as well I'm sure)

Check out the main Lion Mane's thread ("Benefits, real or illusory..."), linked in the pinned thread index. It has a discussion of almost all available brands of this mushroom

[health_nutty]

Too bad there isn't anyone selling Lion's mane in bulk powder for cheap. Just need BAC to carry this...

[chrono]

Too bad there isn't anyone selling Lion's mane in bulk powder for cheap. Just need BAC to carry this...

There's a company I mention near the end of that thread; Health Advantage/Village, I think? They sell LM powder for about 7c/g.

[dachshund]

http://www.herbaladvantage.com/

[choqueiro]

It is safe to take ALCAR and Lion´s Mane?? FunkOdyssey suggest in his post of 22 June 2010 that "excess NGF may promote the growth of brain tumors".
(http://www.imminst.o...or-your-brain/. What about this?? It´s dangerous taking this products or they are harmless?? Could they provoke cancer in a long term regime??

[aLurker]

First of all let me state that there is a huge difference between provoking cancer and promoting the growth of cancer.

It isn't that much of a stretch to think that some growth factors promote the growth of tumors as well as healthy cells but there is a difference between that and increasing the risk of getting a tumor in the first place.

Both are valid questions though:
Does increasing NGF induce cancer? (Carcinogenesis - the creation of cancer)
Does increasing NGF aid the growth of tumors?

It doesn't seem to cause cancer according to a quick search but I could be wrong, check it out for yourself. Although I wouldn't mess with growth factors if you've got a tumor or plan on getting one in the near future.

Here is an excerpt from some random article:

Nerve Growth Factor: The Dark Side of the Icon
Within the nervous system, neuroblastoma cell growth can be inhibited with NGF; it is therefore not a promoter of brain cancer development in this etiology. However, in carcinomas, ie, cancers originating from epithelial cells, the involvement of NGF and its receptors in the promotion of tumor development has been described, as is notably the case in prostate, breast, and pancreatic cancers.

[mrak1979]

Wasn't there an Italian Neurology research scientist who has been taking ngf eye drops daily for years? I believe she's a centenarian, or close to it.... if she's been alive that long, that give more probability to the safety of NGF.

[outsider]

First of all let me state that there is a huge difference between provoking cancer and promoting the growth of cancer.

It isn't that much of a stretch to think that some growth factors promote the growth of tumors as well as healthy cells but there is a difference between that and increasing the risk of getting a tumor in the first place.

Both are valid questions though:
Does increasing NGF induce cancer? (Carcinogenesis - the creation of cancer)
Does increasing NGF aid the growth of tumors?

It doesn't seem to cause cancer according to a quick search but I could be wrong, check it out for yourself. Although I wouldn't mess with growth factors if you've got a tumor or plan on getting one in the near future.

Here is an excerpt from some random article:

Nerve Growth Factor: The Dark Side of the Icon
Within the nervous system, neuroblastoma cell growth can be inhibited with NGF; it is therefore not a promoter of brain cancer development in this etiology. However, in carcinomas, ie, cancers originating from epithelial cells, the involvement of NGF and its receptors in the promotion of tumor development has been described, as is notably the case in prostate, breast, and pancreatic cancers.

LM is an old herb from ancient times, those herbs all tends to cure/prevent cancer. They are well balanced for the physiology.

[chrono]

Wasn't there an Italian Neurology research scientist who has been taking ngf eye drops daily for years? I believe she's a centenarian, or close to it.... if she's been alive that long, that give more probability to the safety of NGF.

It's Rita Levi-Montalcini, the woman who discovered NGF back in the 70s. But there are people who smoke and live to be 100, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything, except that she didn't have a brain tumor/other cancer whose growth was accelerated beyond the rate it would have grown without NGF.

aLurker's answer is a good one: it's kind of hard to say, since it seems to have a different effect on different types of cancer. For instance, it inhibits prostate cancer growth. But there are literally thousands of papers on pubmed at the intersection of these two subjects, so it could definitely use a good review, if someone has a week or so to spare And there are many factors that could promote the growth of cancer; the amount of B1 found in most supplements, or a high-protein diet.

A similar issue was discussed in the astragaloside mega-thread; could telomerase activation increase the growth of the isolated cancer cells, which might otherwise be easily destroyed by the body's natural defenses? One of my ideas about taking NGF-inducers is that, for several reasons, a cycle might be safer and more useful than taking it all the time. But it's just an idea at this point, and figuring out if it's a good one is part of one of my long-term research interests.