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phenibut/neurontin


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#1 TheRoyalFlush

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 04:38 PM


Hey everyone!

This is my first post, and I must say I'm very impressed with everyone’s knowledge (I wouldn’t be surprised if it's even greater than some of our dr.s)

Here's my issue...

Been having sleep issues a couple of months. I can fall asleep easily, but wake up frequently throughout the night and it leaves me exhausted throughout the day. I've tried a variety of supplements the only thing that works is phenibut. The problem, which you all are probably aware, is tolerance. I only use about 1 gram total 3 nights a week. Those three nights I sleep great but I'm trying to figure out a method to get at least 5 nights of solid sleep.

I've been researching this quite heavily and have seen that neurontin (or other similar drugs lyrica etc.) seem to work. But I've heard of tolerance developing on these as well. So my question: Is it possible to cycle phenibut with neurontin(or any druge for that matter) to keep the tolerance down? I realize neurontin and phenibut are similar, is there a cross tolerance?

Any input or suggestions would be highly appreciated!

#2 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 04:54 PM

Hey everyone!

This is my first post, and I must say I'm very impressed with everyone’s knowledge (I wouldn’t be surprised if it's even greater than some of our dr.s)

Here's my issue...

Been having sleep issues a couple of months. I can fall asleep easily, but wake up frequently throughout the night and it leaves me exhausted throughout the day. I've tried a variety of supplements the only thing that works is phenibut. The problem, which you all are probably aware, is tolerance. I only use about 1 gram total 3 nights a week. Those three nights I sleep great but I'm trying to figure out a method to get at least 5 nights of solid sleep.

I've been researching this quite heavily and have seen that neurontin (or other similar drugs lyrica etc.) seem to work. But I've heard of tolerance developing on these as well. So my question: Is it possible to cycle phenibut with neurontin(or any druge for that matter) to keep the tolerance down? I realize neurontin and phenibut are similar, is there a cross tolerance?

Any input or suggestions would be highly appreciated!


I very strongly suggest you do not consider using phenibut long-term. Of all GABAergic substances, it has among the worst dependency and withdrawal issues.

Neurontin and phenibut are not similar. Pregabalin or gabapentin would be a better long-term strategy for insomnia. Tolerance develops to their sleep induction effect but not as much to their improvement of sleep architecture and reduction in mid-sleep awakenings (your main problem).

What you have you tried as far as supplements? Lemon balm or valerian root, alone or in combination especially is effective for many people trying to sleep through the entire night. They inhibit GABA transaminase and stimulate glutamic acid decarboxylase respectively, each boosting GABA levels within the brain via a different mechanism.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 26 August 2010 - 04:55 PM.

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#3 chrono

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:27 PM

From what I've read, I would worry about using phenibut more than once a week.

Check out this thread for a host of suggestions: Anything new in dealing with insomnia?
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#4 TheRoyalFlush

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:38 PM

What you have you tried as far as supplements? Lemon balm or valerian root, alone or in combination especially is effective for many people trying to sleep through the entire night. They inhibit GABA transaminase and stimulate glutamic acid decarboxylase respectively, each boosting GABA levels within the brain via a different mechanism.


So far I've tried

Melatonin
magnesium
tryptophan
Glycine 2g (this actually works, I still wake up but it seems it gives me a more restful sleep)
Inositol (Same with glycine, I notice I feel slightly more well rested with this but still wake up)

Will give valerian and lemon balm a try.

#5 Animal

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:54 PM

The reason that Phenibut has such rapid development of tolerence and extreme potential for dependence is because it is almost exclusively a high affinity GABA-B agonist. The reason you feel well rested and in a positive mood the day after are because it is also a low affinity cyclical-dissociation beta-phenylethylamine antagonist, the antagonistic effects wear off before the GABA-B agonist effects do. This causes your PEA modulated receptors to up-regulate so when it wears off you are highly energised and motivated.

The GABA-B agonism prevents you from noticing the PEA antagonism by virtue of it's potent dopaminergic effect.

GABA-A agonists are far better for regular use, being much less addictive and having a less steep tolerance curve.

Trust me, I have extensive experience with Phenibut from back in my ignorant, irresponsible days, using it to self medicate dysthymia and chronic fatigue syndrome. I now avoid it as if it were poison, because the negative effects of past addiction last an extremely long time. GABA-B down-regulates rapidly, but up-regulates gradually, meaning that the negative effects of discontinued chronic dosing on mood and cognition last a long time. Hate the substance!
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#6 TheRoyalFlush

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:07 PM

Just saw my sleep doc, he wanted to put me on an ssri to suppress dreaming; I'm not sure about this. I just ordered some lithium orotate, quite a few people have used it and claim it helps with sleep.

As far as phenibut, I can't see how I'm in such danger if I'm only using roughly a gram over a course of 3 days? My cycle goes mon,tue,wed then resume again the following monday.

#7 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:37 PM

Well at least it's on record: we warned you.

#8 medievil

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:42 PM

Phenibut is complete garbage
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#9 pycnogenol

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 10:43 PM

So far I've tried:

Melatonin
magnesium
tryptophan
Glycine 2g (this actually works, I still wake up but it seems it gives me a more restful sleep)
Inositol (Same with glycine, I notice I feel slightly more well rested with this but still wake up)



Occasionaly I'll take 5-HTP (100 mg strength) and it definitely keeps me sleeping soundly for 8 hours. I say try some.

I've never taken phenibut and but have taken neurontin and that nasty stuff just made feel lobotomized. Never again.

Edited by pycnogenol, 26 August 2010 - 10:46 PM.

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#10 adamh

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:55 PM

I use phenibut about every 2 weeks and it is very nice. 3 times a week is way too much. Lemon balm worked ok the first time but after that it became almost useless and I did cycle it. Valarian root helps but you have to cycle it, I'd say no more than 1 use per week. Hops helps and I have not noticed any real tolerance although it's not the bomb. 5htp has never helped me. Try skulcap, I use it as tea but you can get capsules. I cycle everything. Mulungu is relaxing, it's the bark of a tree.

I'm taking ldn and I need all the help I can get with sleep so I've tried a lot of things. Another that I use is black cohosh. It became less effective after a few uses but I cycle it and take some hops with it. Marijuana taken in food seems to work well. It's legal some places, some places not. Smoking it does not seem to work, only eating and it has to be prepared a certain way. I haven' tried lithium yet but that seems a little extreme just to get sleepy.

I use an over the counter sleep aid which is an antihistamine. I cycle it and use it about 2x a week. Works well and is super cheap. Why go to a doc and get an expensive prescription that you will probably get addicted to or have terrible side effects? Cheap is best but use your head.

#11 kenj

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:59 PM

Trust me, I have extensive experience with Phenibut from back in my ignorant, irresponsible days, using it to self medicate dysthymia and chronic fatigue syndrome. I now avoid it as if it were poison, because the negative effects of past addiction last an extremely long time. GABA-B down-regulates rapidly, but up-regulates gradually, meaning that the negative effects of discontinued chronic dosing on mood and cognition last a long time. Hate the substance!


I trust you. ;-) But, I wonder if it's poison if used in a low dose, 'controlled' fashion. I.e. I have taken it in ~250-500mg doses, if I couldn't get a full nights sleep, for some reason, or when dealing with too much caffeine. Lately, in the form of the Relax-All product, which works with theanine, mg, etc. IIRC. Seems to give me more BANG for less hours... Coupled with especially Xtra theanine, and acetyl-L-Carnitine I function 'normally' the neXt day, FWIW.

#12 TheRoyalFlush

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 01:54 AM

Well at least it's on record: we warned you.


I'm heading your warnings it's just that when that's the only thing that seems to work it's hard not to use it.

I'm pretty sure I've read someone else on this board that cycles pheni the way I do. 3 days on, 4 off. I emailed the manufacturer and they said as long as I didn't go over the recommended dosage and I took a couple day break, I would be good.

#13 John Barleycorn

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 02:43 AM

My understanding re the Ca++ channel blockers like gabapentin and pregablin is that the biggest issue is not so much tolerance as withdrawals (which can be overcome with tapering). Dunno about cross-tolerance with GABA-ergics, that is something I'm interested in myself.

Another point is that there are clearly large individual differences in GABA-ergic response, so bear that in mind when people start demonising various stuff. Step 1 is to find out where you sit on the spectrum ...
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#14 bobman

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:46 AM

I would take phenibut over gabapentin. Gabapentin is a weird ass medication, and really messes with your mind. I was prescribed it for a few months. As my friend described it, you'll find yourself sitting at stop signs and wonder when they don't turn green. You would have to take well over 1200mg to have it actually promote sleep, and that is neurotoxic range. 300mg is enough to fix any anxiety you have, 600mg is already in thought numbing territory. The first time I took it, I ingested 600mg I think, and I was amazed at how calm, and stupid I felt. Anyways, I would really love to discourage you from using it, but it is good for anxiety.

There is some mysterious allure GABA -ergic substances have, but messing with LTP is a good recipe for amnesia. I don't know if cannabais makes you sleepy, but I think that is a far healthier option. Never mind that neurontin is an iatrogenic/teratogenic substance. Lower doses of valarian root are effective in 2 studies I've read for promotion of sleep, although not necessarily for rate to fall asleep (the higher doses did do this, but people reported > waking frequency and grogginess in the morning). Camomile tea is a nice relaxant before bed, and honey has been shown to promote sleep quality. Meditation before bed can really knock you out as well.
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#15 bobman

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:57 AM

My understanding re the Ca++ channel blockers like gabapentin and pregablin is that the biggest issue is not so much tolerance as withdrawals (which can be overcome with tapering). Dunno about cross-tolerance with GABA-ergics, that is something I'm interested in myself.

Another point is that there are clearly large individual differences in GABA-ergic response, so bear that in mind when people start demonising various stuff. Step 1 is to find out where you sit on the spectrum ...


Gabapentin does more than block Ca++, it enhances inhibitory signalling, specifically the synthesis of GABA. It doesn't create short-term dependency or tolerance, although like every substance that radically alters neuron signalling, physiological changes occurs after homeostatic response takes place, and some physiological dependdence surely follows. Anacdotally I felt tolerance effects within a few days. I'd recommend that if you do take it, to only take it a few times a week, and to take periodic wash-out breaks. On the cation side, other anti-epileptics certainly create tolerance, although past a certain dose inhibition is so high (different for each obviously) that effect still occurs. For instance ~ 2um-14um/ml of lamotrigine in humans glutamate release is probably <30% of normal (long term use only), based on long-term rodent data.
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#16 Logan

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 03:07 AM

If anyone is going to use pregabalin for sleep, doses are probably going to be pretty low, maybe 75 to 100 mg. I'm assuming that negative reactions will be less likely at these doses.

#17 outsider

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 07:40 AM


What you have you tried as far as supplements? Lemon balm or valerian root, alone or in combination especially is effective for many people trying to sleep through the entire night. They inhibit GABA transaminase and stimulate glutamic acid decarboxylase respectively, each boosting GABA levels within the brain via a different mechanism.


So far I've tried

Melatonin
magnesium
tryptophan
Glycine 2g (this actually works, I still wake up but it seems it gives me a more restful sleep)
Inositol (Same with glycine, I notice I feel slightly more well rested with this but still wake up)

Will give valerian and lemon balm a try.



How much melatonin did you try ?

#18 TheRoyalFlush

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 04:46 PM


What you have you tried as far as supplements? Lemon balm or valerian root, alone or in combination especially is effective for many people trying to sleep through the entire night. They inhibit GABA transaminase and stimulate glutamic acid decarboxylase respectively, each boosting GABA levels within the brain via a different mechanism.


So far I've tried

Melatonin
magnesium
tryptophan
Glycine 2g (this actually works, I still wake up but it seems it gives me a more restful sleep)
Inositol (Same with glycine, I notice I feel slightly more well rested with this but still wake up)

Will give valerian and lemon balm a try.



How much melatonin did you try ?


The highest was 3mg. I def helped me fall asleep, but thats not my problem, I still woke up frequently.

Right now I'm using trazodone and smoking a little bit of cannabis. It seems to be doing the trick.

#19 bobman

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 05:50 PM

Oh man, try to go without the trazadone, that is dangerous stuff.
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#20 kenj

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 12:21 AM

To OP,

have you tried time released melatonin (for several days)?
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#21 John Barleycorn

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 04:09 AM

Gabapentin is a weird ass medication, and really messes with your mind. I was prescribed it for a few months... You would have to take well over 1200mg to have it actually promote sleep, and that is neurotoxic range... Never mind that neurontin is an iatrogenic/teratogenic substance.


I think my previous remarks about both individual differences and demonisation have been confirmed. :blink: Here's another perspective:

Therapie. 2010 Jan-Feb;65(1):57-60. Epub 2010 Mar 8.
[Therapeutic drug monitoring of gabapentin]

[Article in French]

Tribut O, Bentué-Ferrer D, Verdier MC; le groupe Suivi Thérapeutique Pharmacologique de la Société Française de Pharmacologie et de Thérapeutique.

Laboratoire de Pharmacologie Biologique, CHU Pontchaillou, Rennes, France. olivier.tribut@chu-rennes.fr
Abstract

Gabapentin is a structural analogue of GABA used in the treatment of the partial epilepsies of adult and child of more than 12 years, in monotherapy or in association with other anticonvulsant drugs. In association, gabapentin presents the advantage of not interfering with the other anticonvulsant drugs. The interindividual pharmacokinetic variability and the saturable absorption are, with the adaptation in case of renal insufficiency, the only arguments in favor of TDM. During clinical studies, the plasma concentrations of gabapentin were generally included between 2 and 20 mg/L. For this molecule, the level of proof of the interest of therapeutic drug monitoring was estimated in: possibly useful.

PMID: 20205997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


There doesn't seem to be too much talk about toxicity in practical, in vivo cases.

There is some mysterious allure GABA -ergic substances have, but messing with LTP is a good recipe for amnesia.


Temporary or permanent?
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#22 bobman

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:51 AM

Gabapentin is a weird ass medication, and really messes with your mind. I was prescribed it for a few months... You would have to take well over 1200mg to have it actually promote sleep, and that is neurotoxic range... Never mind that neurontin is an iatrogenic/teratogenic substance.


I think my previous remarks about both individual differences and demonisation have been confirmed. :blink: Here's another perspective:

Therapie. 2010 Jan-Feb;65(1):57-60. Epub 2010 Mar 8.
[Therapeutic drug monitoring of gabapentin]

[Article in French]

Tribut O, Bentué-Ferrer D, Verdier MC; le groupe Suivi Thérapeutique Pharmacologique de la Société Française de Pharmacologie et de Thérapeutique.

Laboratoire de Pharmacologie Biologique, CHU Pontchaillou, Rennes, France. olivier.tribut@chu-rennes.fr
Abstract

Gabapentin is a structural analogue of GABA used in the treatment of the partial epilepsies of adult and child of more than 12 years, in monotherapy or in association with other anticonvulsant drugs. In association, gabapentin presents the advantage of not interfering with the other anticonvulsant drugs. The interindividual pharmacokinetic variability and the saturable absorption are, with the adaptation in case of renal insufficiency, the only arguments in favor of TDM. During clinical studies, the plasma concentrations of gabapentin were generally included between 2 and 20 mg/L. For this molecule, the level of proof of the interest of therapeutic drug monitoring was estimated in: possibly useful.

PMID: 20205997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


There doesn't seem to be too much talk about toxicity in practical, in vivo cases.

There is some mysterious allure GABA -ergic substances have, but messing with LTP is a good recipe for amnesia.


Temporary or permanent?


Depends on who you ask. There is very little research done into long-term effects of any psychotropic medications except typical antipsychotics, and even that data focuses on epidemiology, and not fine grain memory issues. The only long-term benzodiazepine withdrawal study I've seen indicates that on average memory problems do not resolve 7 years out. For obvious control reasons the quality of the data is dubious. Longitudinal anticonvulsant studies only look at long term effects of pre-natal exposure, which is likely shows the most extreme cases, and those suggest that most anticonvulsants significantly degrade cognitive function, with the possible exception of lamotrigine, the reason that it's only possibly excluded is because these studies don't include positive controls, most likely because the data would be more damning.

My suspicion is that people having varying degrees of resistance to brain insult, and varying regenerative efficacy. Also, there is likely a great variation in how patients deal with withdrawal, and what healing modalities they pursue. Personally I wouldn't pay much attention to that benzo study based on that last reason alone: the authors themselves suggest innacuracy when they write that selection bias likely negatively impacted the outcome (aka only people who suffered long term side effects responded). What the study does tell us is that for the population that experiences long term effects these effects can be "permanent", and I quote that because likely these people have not exhausted all options to improve the deficit, and also it is notoriously difficult to predict how a patient will recover (in tbi cases at least) even that long out. There is no evidence that the kind of "brain damage" you experience from medication use, barring long term anti-psychotic use, causes the kind of obvious, macroscopic damage, especially scarring, that insults like electroshock or acute head injury are confounded by.

On another note, in another study I read iatrogenic epigenetic "permanent" changes were noted in a wide swarth of sampled psychotropic medications, everything from ssri's to antipsychotics. I can dig up the list, but I read this study last year and cannot recall all medications, but fluoxetine and some anticonvulsant and antipsychotics were tested. The authors concluded that these "permanent" expression changes were possibly the cause of prolonged withdrawal effects. It is however, quite clear that gene expression is modified by many actions, anything from meditation and exercise to drug ingestion, so this doesn't mean much by itself. It would be much scarier if these drugs caused iatrogenic changes, and were unique in their ability to influence gene expression.

As far as gabapentin's neurotoxicity profile, I would dig deeper. First of all, it doesn't need to be overtly neurotoxic to be damaging to mental function. Signs of neurotoxicity, like nystagmus or fever, are only observed when direct cell death occurs. Gabapentin, on a mg^-1 basis is not the most toxic substance, but it absolutely dangerous, and there are high quality studies showing this. Check science direct or ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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#23 John Barleycorn

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 03:07 AM

This study seems to be fairly definitive about the MOA:

1. Curr Opin Pharmacol. 2006 Feb;6(1):108-13. Epub 2005 Dec 22.

The mechanisms of action of gabapentin and pregabalin.

Sills GJ.

Epilepsy Unit Division of Cardiovascular & Medical Sciences, Western Infirmary,
Glasgow G11 6NT, Scotland. g.j.sills@clinmed.gla.ac.uk

Gabapentin and pregabalin are structurally related compounds with recognized
efficacy in the treatment of both epilepsy and neuropathic pain. The
pharmacological mechanisms by which these agents exert their clinical effects
have, until recently, remained unclear. The interaction of gabapentin and
pregabalin with conventional antiepileptic and analgesic drug targets is likely
to be modest, at best, and has been largely dismissed in favour of a selective
inhibitory effect on voltage-gated calcium channels containing the alpha2delta-1
subunit
. This mechanism is consistently observed in both rodent- and human-based
experimental paradigms and may be sufficiently robust to account for much of the
clinical activity of these compounds
.


PMID: 16376147 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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#24 tlm884

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:44 AM

I find that between 300 and 500mg of gabapentin and 750 to 1500 mg of tryptophan an hour before bed does the trick.

#25 Ben

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 04:03 PM

I was lucky enough to have read extensively on phenibut's effects before I took it so knew to only use it once a week.

I use it once a weekend as a party drug (warning, should not be mixed with alcohol). I love it. I have 10x the confidence, 10x the stamina and an increased desire to... court. It also allows me to dance well and without care. For a night club, once a week, it's a wonder drug. I tell no one because it's so good and I'm afraid of increased regulation that comes with pharmaceuticals like these that are loosely regulated in the hands of the stupid (most people.)

Unlike with alcohol, I feel great the next day.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 31 August 2010 - 04:04 PM.

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#26 Animal

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:50 PM

I was lucky enough to have read extensively on phenibut's effects before I took it so knew to only use it once a week.

I use it once a weekend as a party drug (warning, should not be mixed with alcohol). I love it. I have 10x the confidence, 10x the stamina and an increased desire to... court. It also allows me to dance well and without care. For a night club, once a week, it's a wonder drug. I tell no one because it's so good and I'm afraid of increased regulation that comes with pharmaceuticals like these that are loosely regulated in the hands of the stupid (most people.)

Unlike with alcohol, I feel great the next day.


I used to take it in the same way, but it began causing a depressed mood for a few days when the afterglow faded, so I stopped. My moods in the week are far more consistent now, and to be honest I don't miss it in the least.

#27 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:06 PM

I used to take it in the same way, but it began causing a depressed mood for a few days when the afterglow faded, so I stopped. My moods in the week are far more consistent now, and to be honest I don't miss it in the least.


+1 Same experience.

#28 Ben

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:03 AM

I used to take it in the same way, but it began causing a depressed mood for a few days when the afterglow faded, so I stopped. My moods in the week are far more consistent now, and to be honest I don't miss it in the least.


Yeah, to be honest, I had this as well, especially when I inadvertently took a few sips of beer (literally, a few sips) before remembering that I had take phenibut (which, sadly is most nights.) After a month or so though, you get better at coping with it, I don't know why, I can explain it amateurishly but that's all. Also, there are ways of countering the feeling, which for me now, is no longer apparent, by going to the gym, or running etc.

Overall, it still, and always has, beaten alcohol on every single front for me.

#29 Bghead8che

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 03:49 AM

Why is Trazadone "dangerous"?

Also, other than the addiction potential is Phenibut dangerous (i.e. brain damage, toxicity, etc)? I take 500 mg twice a week for sleep and it really seems to help. I can't imagine becoming dependent on 1 gram a week.

For those that avoid Phenibut would you mind clarifying why you avoid it? I just added it to my night stack so I'd like to get some feedback.

Thanks!

-Brian

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#30 tlm884

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:47 AM

Neurontin has been shown to increase sleep quality over a number of months. As well, in patients with delayed sleep phase syndrome 3.5gm tryptophan nightly decreased sleep latency and increased sleep quality. After 2 years of 3.5grams of trp use the efficency did not decrease. However, Vitamin B6 was also administered at the time of tryptophan administration to prevent accumulation of toxic metabolites.




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