9 replies to this topic

[Deckah]

I posted a version of this on a Social Anxiety Disorder forum and didn't get much of a response.

A brief description of my anxiety disorder. You can skip to the actual question at the bottom.

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Not sure if it matters or not, but wanted to describe my panic attacks. I first noticed them in kindergarten. I was in a line with other children and had to sound out the alphabets A-Z. I messed up towards the end and got real nervous and started getting a gag reflex, where I was basically dry heaving.

Throughout school I couldn't stand/speak/act in front of class cause out of nowhere I started to dry heave. It seems that I could do things like the above, but spur of the moment basically. Once I knew what I was going to do that day, all the worry was setting in and I could not do it. I didn't think anything of it, but went to a few doctors. Some of them that I went to thought I was anemic and others just said that I was just trying to get out of school for that day or that it's normal for people to do this.

I did finally find a doctor that said, "it may be anxiety". I was given something, but it didn't help. Not sure what I was given since this was around middle school times and I was still young and couldn't understand what I had. I am 23 now. IMO I was born with this and it didn't just happen overnight.

I take mints now to try to keep myself at ease and they help for some occasions, but it's just not enough. Similar to smokers taking their mind off of having a cigarette by chewing certain gums. I would put a list of occasions where I usually get anxiety, but it's really baby anxiety compared to what others go through, but it really hurts my social life. Ive taken lexapro/xanax and they seemed to hurt more than cure, so trying a new route.
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Right now I am figuring out a cognitive stack that will also help with my anxiety. Since my anxiety is kinda spur of the moment, I can't really say I would benefit from a daily noot. I may have to go the route of taking something before situations where it "could" occur, cause that's my only real way to test. I already have a few things in mind (picamilon, theanine. lemon-balm, phenibut(cycled, 1-2week) ). Aside from that, my real question is in regards to the base of my stack.


Question: I was researching Acetyl L-Carnitine daily as a base supp, would taking Choline(Citrate) also be beneficial? I was looking at getting both, but I have been reading up on Acetyl L-Carnitine and seen that it helps in the production of "acetylcholine", same as from supplemental choline. So wasn't sure if I could just drop Choline(Citrate) all-together and get the same results from ALCAR. Was reading up on choline being beneficial for anxiety, once again I guess that ALCAR would serve the same results? Not to mention I take it ALCAR surpasses regular choline in the noot category?

Reason I would be needing a choline source is for the other stuff I will supplement for mitigating the effects of side-effects, Piracetam/Aniracetam. Was going to add Aniracetam for some anxiolytic effects it's been claimed to have. Then again figuring out which of the two works and at what amounts, will be tricky enough. I also am currently researching a few more items (tyrosine,ashwagandha,bacopa) to maybe also take a gander and see if they result in anything. My secondary focus is also memory, concentration/focus, creative-thinking, but then again I'm sure that will come with the territory, for the things I may be taking.

Another thing. How do people go about figuring out deficiencies? Like tyrosine/magnesium/b6/choline/etc. I take it most people just taking something along those lines and if it works, they justify the deficiency?


Thanks for any feedback and a big thanks in general to imminst. The last two weeks have been hazardous to my health, probably 50+ hours reading along with 100 or so tabs open in Firefox. I guess not enough reading since I am, asking the above questions which I probably skipped over a couple of times.

Edited by Kdvwest, 08 September 2010 - 12:01 AM.

[Major Legend]

Sort of asking the same question myself about the Choline / AlCAR situation. My current thinking is try ALCAR without choline first, if it works without choline supplementation, you might have enough choline in your diet anyways. Some people here have reported nootropics to work better without choline supplementation

In terms of social anxiety it depends what ur sort of getting? is it physical, social fear? The reason I ask is because social anxiety comes in many forms. Mines is a sort of fluttering, can't look people in the eye, shyness around people, like in a push over sort of way, some people get panic attacks, other just get shaky etc etc.

Clonazepam is sort of the social disorder god drug (but also addictive and develop tolerance) for people with the unable to relax, in the sense it widens your perception from narrow to wide. Its the only benzo I have taken I can say would relieve social inhibition. I find it makes me feel weak.

If you have physical symptoms like stage fright, e.g.raised heart rates. You can use propanolol which is a drug prescribe for stage fright. Benzos like Clonazepam will help with physical symptoms as well.

What I find really helps for me to do a presentation, is if its possible visit the location and just imagine yourself doing it first, this helps me loads as it gives me the sense of space, where people will be sitting etc etc

If your problem is more psychological, then you would need to identify more about what is your problem. Many people who think they have social disorder just sort of lack confidence in an epic way, and those people will find stimulants like caffeine and others I won't mention helps them. I also recommend learning simple conversational tools such as threading (pick a word from someone's sentence and make a related statement). Learn to connect with people, feel who they are what they are about etc etc. Can do wonders outside of medicinal intervention. (I am an advocate of holistic therapy)

In terms of nutrition deficiency, its very subjective though i've heard that people here go to special doctors who can examine their hair, blood etc and test for defeciency. I live in the UK, so we are sort of backwards.

I would say don't expect too much out of theanine if your symptoms are strong, its effects are very subtle like drinking really nice tea.

This is as far as I know hope it helps.

[chrono]

Question: I was researching Acetyl L-Carnitine daily as a base supp, would taking Choline(Citrate) also be beneficial? I was looking at getting both, but I have been reading up on Acetyl L-Carnitine and seen that it helps in the production of "acetylcholine", same as from supplemental choline. So wasn't sure if I could just drop Choline(Citrate) all-together and get the same results from ALCAR. Was reading up on choline being beneficial for anxiety, once again I guess that ALCAR would serve the same results? Not to mention I take it ALCAR surpasses regular choline in the noot category?

Reason I would be needing a choline source is for the other stuff I will supplement for mitigating the effects of side-effects, Piracetam/Aniracetam. Was going to add Aniracetam for some anxiolytic effects it's been claimed to have. Then again figuring out which of the two works and at what amounts, will be tricky enough.

It's hard to say, with certainty. I very much like ALCAR to combine with racetams (see this thread), largely because I don't respond well to the choline precursors, but it's different for everyone. Theoretically, it should have the same result (increasing acetylcholine), but does it in different ways, which will have varying effectiveness based on your brain chemistry. But ALCAR has several other mechanisms as well, which should have more of an enhancing effect than choline (though it will still be subtle).

A few people here have said that ALCAR can increase their anxiety, though it certainly doesn't for me. If you're trying to figure out what you need before you place an order, you could get some ALCAR and some choline bitatrate (it's very cheap), so you'll have a few different options to try. Combining them is possible, and may work better for you than either alone, depending on your reactions.

Another thing. How do people go about figuring out deficiencies? Like tyrosine/magnesium/b6/choline/etc. I take it most people just taking something along those lines and if it works, they justify the deficiency?

Well, for vitamins and minerals, you can get a blood test at the doctor's (or maybe online), and say with some certainty. Or some people just supplement with them, and see if they make any difference (depending on the specific supplement, and the safe range of dosages).

For neurotransmitter precursors like tyrosine and choline, it's doubtful that you'd have a specific deficiency, though I assume it's possible. Rather, deficiencies are usually in the neurotransmitters (i.e. dopamine or acetylcholine) themselves, which manifest as conditions like depression or ADD, and have a variety of possible causes in the scheme of production and regulation. In this area, it's pretty much all about careful experimentation. And a lot of what we do here is about augmentation, rather than correcting problems, so if something improves your state of mind it doesn't necessarily mean something was wrong with you.

I also am currently researching a few more items (tyrosine,ashwagandha,bacopa) to maybe also take a gander and see if they result in anything. My secondary focus is also memory, concentration/focus, creative-thinking, but then again I'm sure that will come with the territory, for the things I may be taking.

From your description, it's somewhat hard to picture what kind of anxiety you have. Am I right in assuming it's a constant, low-level thing that keeps you from doing what you want? If so, you might have some luck with bacopa or ashwagandha. Also try out theanine, taurine, and lemon balm, which are quite anxiolytic for me (though without much potential for enhancing cognition). Another thing some of us use here is low-dose lithium, which I know sounds scary, but if you take it in very low dosages it's really not at all like the serious drug treatments. It can have a very calming effect, and is also very cheap.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide on.

Edited by chrono, 08 September 2010 - 12:53 AM.

[tolas]

I'm on my third day of trying Piracetam (~1.6G per day) and one of the biggest things I notice is a decrease in my slight social anxiety. Walking around campus I would normally be very aware of who was around, and would be self conscious at times. On piracetam it seems like i'm in my own world. I had no self conscious feelings walking through crowded spaces which was very refreshing. The effects are slight, but noticeable. Piracetam seems to give me an energy and a sort of care free openness. It's seemed to make me more comfortable in my own world and less concerned with others perceptions.

This may effect you in the same way or it may not. Don't expect profound changes but if it's just a little boost you need, Piracetam has really worked for me.

For these first three days I was taking Piracetam only, but I just received my order of ALCAR and Omega-3, so I will be adding those to my daily routine.

[Deckah]

Thanks for all the replies. As for taurine supplementation. I was going to get magnesium taurate and see if that manages to help in anyway. I am going to change my diet, so I will have to check out CRON-O-METER to see how much supplementation I might need. I know there probably isn't much taurine in the MAG, but I heard overall it's the best MAG supplement people have seen anxiety results from. Plus I managed to find a cheap bulk vendor.

The anxiety is not constant. I also couldn't find much information on it. It seems while others sweat, heart flutters/races, get stress/etc. My result is a gag type symptom (Hypersensitive Gag Reflex). My throat tightens and I feel the urge to gag. So it basically seems like my brain sends the signal that it's time to gag at something and then it happens. It sounds funny, but damn it's a pain in the ass I think if my mind was more mentally relaxed, then I wouldn't have that problem. I will just take things as they go until I can find an actual lead on a certain type of blood panel I can get a test on. I will just start with regular hormone tests along with an adrenal type panel and see where that leads me. In the end that, imo, would result in a prescription med which I am not for.

As far as lithium goes, I did manage to read up on it, but didn't save it to my bookmarks. So that basically means I found something on it that I didn't like, but I will recheck it and find out some more experiences/studies before I make my final decision on it again. The same goes for Bacopa, which Ive heard more cons than pros on the side-effects, being nauseous, sleepiness, fatigue/shitness feelings. Then again it's probably more due to just not figuring the proper dose and canning the idea of taking it anymore.


tolas: The sounds great and hopefully those new supps works well into your current stack. I have heard sort of the same on Piracetam and others experiencing SA as a result from it. Probably more aimed @ GAD though.

chrono: I will have to find a vitamin type panel, not sure of any outside of beta-carotene/vitamin D. Ill have to check out the minerals as well. Maybe throughout my life Ive been deficient in just one thing, seems odd, but never know. Or could be I was secretly dropped on my head as a child and nobody cared to mention it to me. Maybe that's why I'm this way

Thanks again all.

Edited by Kdvwest, 08 September 2010 - 03:04 AM.

[chrono]

I know there probably isn't much taurine in the MAG, but I heard overall it's the best MAG supplement people have seen anxiety results from. Plus I managed to find a cheap bulk vendor.

Magnesium taurate is about 91% taurine by weight. Taking a full 400mg magnesium would give you almost 4g of taurine, which is a pretty healthy dose.

[Deckah]

I know there probably isn't much taurine in the MAG, but I heard overall it's the best MAG supplement people have seen anxiety results from. Plus I managed to find a cheap bulk vendor.

Magnesium taurate is about 91% taurine by weight. Taking a full 400mg magnesium would give you almost 4g of taurine, which is a pretty healthy dose.

That seems like a hefty dose of taurine. I am 24 years old / 140-150lbs if that means anything. I did read around and only seen of trials with doses that high, but no side effects. Then again I'm sure my body will just forfeit what it doesn't need.

I posted in your last thread on MAG Taurate and you stated you was up to 2g/180mg(MAG). Was curious where you are now?

I guess the sweet spot would be 4500mg, like you mentioned. Seems a pita to get 400mg of MAG(@ 8.9% weight) .

[chrono]

That seems like a hefty dose of taurine. I am 24 years old / 140-150lbs if that means anything. I did read around and only seen of trials with doses that high, but no side effects. Then again I'm sure my body will just forfeit what it doesn't need.

Very true. When doing my research on it this spring, I found some accounts on Mind & Muscle of people taking 3-4g taurine a day, but then again the effects may be different when incorporated into a bodybuilding stack. I seem to be very sensitive to the sedative effects of most supplements...2g of mag taurate makes me sleep for 12 hours for 3-4 days when I first start, but my mother and a friend of mine don't notice any effect whatever.

I posted in your last thread on MAG Taurate and you stated you was up to 2g/180mg(MAG). Was curious where you are now?

I stepped back down to 1g again. I was getting some unusual sleepiness in the afternoon, and thought it might be the taurine. I think it might be due more to fluctuations in my response to piracetam, and a few different choline options I'm trying right now, but I decided to keep it low anyway. I'd like to do some better tests of my reaction sometime when I'm taking a break from mentally challenging stuff.

I guess the sweet spot would be 4500mg, like you mentioned. Seems a pita to get 400mg of MAG(@ 8.9% weight) .

Unless I'm ultra-sensitive to taurine, I think the 'sweet spot' for mag and taurine may be at pretty different levels. I'm actually very curious to hear about your reactions to it. Right now, I'm really the only person who's provided a detailed account of their reaction. My idea is still to buy some Mag malate (which based on my research is the other best option), and use it to fill in the rest of my dose. You may want to keep this possibility in mind as well, dependent upon how much taurine you feel is best for you in the end.

If you're getting the taurate from Vitaspace, he also carries mag malate (though the minimum order is 5kg/$135). Beyond a Century also has it in bulk for $10.25/300g, which is a nice size to give something a try.

[Deckah]

WOOO thanks for that. I most likely will be choosing both taurate and malate, read some other threads on malate/gets some good praise. Just having a tough time figuring out the elemental dosage of malate. It seems to be %15 from what Ive seen on BAC and another vitamin site, so I will probably go with that. Ive been reading - http://www.afibbers.org/magnesium.html , but doesn't mention anything on taurate or much on malate, aside from a malic supplementation mention.

Thanks again.

[chrono]

Mag malate is 15.3% Mg. Mag taurate is a novel and fairly uncommon compound, and I had a hard time finding any info on it. The COA from Vitaspace says it's 8.9% Mg, so that's what I've been going with.