124 replies to this topic

[Thorsten3]

Hi I am in need of your help.

Recently I have become very depressed and this episode I am currently going though has hit me pretty hard if I am to be honest. Normally my depression creeps up on me and isn't very obvious but this bout is of particular concern to me because I know that when you are in that pit it can be very hard to get out of it. I beleive that for the first time in my life I have contemplated suicide, something I have never been in danger of no matter how low I would go. At the moment I am not suffering apathy and lethargic tendancies (probably due to the last few months of trialling both Agomelatine and Tianeptine - not together) but I am feeling intense anger and rage at my life and other people. This essentially results in deeper depression and a miserable, pessimistic character that quite frankly I really have had enough of. I'm very much a spiritual person and it hurts me the way I cut myself up like this. I should know better than to do this to myself but I just can't stop. Since my teenage years I have suffered with a persistant depresseive mood disorder (Above average intensity with GAD) and it has always been part of my life to some extent but I have always managed to control it somehow. I have tried a few anti-depressants and none of them have given me proper effective relief. One thing I've noticed though is that when I get this low, which is extremely rare, my anger and depression is totally cured when I take an SSRI (Citalopram in this case). Normally taking these drugs on a daily basis is a no-goer for me due to the horrible side effects (intense agitation, anxiety). I also hate the mind numbing aspects they have. But what interests me about one aspect of the SSRI's method of action is the way it oblitorates all the dark intrusive morbid thoughts. Tianeptine didn't do that. Agomelatine didn't do that. St Johns Wort didn't do that. All had their benefits on sleep, arousal and some aspects of anhedonia but they didn't do jack for the horrid thoughts I so wish I could escape from.

I have had a theory recently that maybe I have been overdoing it with the supplements that I take each day. I have read that excessive acetylcholine can really put you into a bad place and I think this may have been the case for me. For a few months I was eating eggs daily (up to 3) and I also took a LEF multivitamin (containing choline), Bacopa, Lion's Mane (this one is definitely cholinergic by how it made me feel), Gingko and idebenone. Piracetam (without a choline source) has also been chucked out because it makes me very depressed indeed. To be fair I don't think there is anything there that is drastically pushing acetylcholine through the roof but I cannot discount the fact that I may have high levels of this neurotransmitter anyway and taking all of this resulted in this negative consequence. It's my understanding that too much of any NT is totally debilitating to your wellbeing. You might be asking yourself why I have come up with this hypothesis? Well purely because of how this SSRI is eliminating my depressed thoughts. I have read that most SSRI's (If not all, I'm not sure) are anti-cholinergic in some sense and this explains a part of their theraputic anti-depressant action.
I read one of FunkOddessy's posts a while back that grabbed my attention with regards to SSRI's. He was taking a low dose of Escitalopram daily and I think he was having some degree of moderate success with it. Maybe this would be an option for me? Maybe it would give me the extra 5HT that my neurons so desperately need but also would come without the horrible agitation and anxiety that I get at doses normally prescribed by a GP?



What I have tried and doesn't work for my depression

1. Exercise (it helps but doesn't cure it)
2. Diet (it has helped all areas of my life and has helped mood very moderately)
3. Day to day SSRI at prescribed dose(not practical due to sides)
4. Agomelatine, Tianeptine, SJW, Rhodiola and other herbs
5. Going to see my GP. One after another. I'm sure all of you self-medicators can empathize here. I have had so much more success doing this by myself.


What I plan to try

1. Speaking with a therapist (finding a good one is the key)
2. Low dose SSRI daily
3. Research into other forms of therapy (what else is there?)
4. Cutting down my workload and the ensuing stress and making time for my hobbies (astronomy, tennis, gym)
5. Maybe joining a yoga class, tai chi class
6. More mediation (this does help me to some degree but I've only scratched the surface with regards to how much more benfits I could be getting from it)
7. Maybe invest in a SAD lamp. This winter and sudden onset of shit weather in the UK has probably contributed to my low moods as I do notice that I become more chipper when the sun is out.
8. Try other meds (Remeron has interested me after recent reading I have done on anti-depressants)
9. May try a histadelic supplement regimen at some point in the future based on the reading I have done about the condition. I think when I read the symptons of histadelia I had about 90% of the symptons (chronic depression, allergies, intolerance of heat, intolerance of pain, excessive libdio, excessive over working, insomnia, over salivation and lack of cavaties to name but a few)

So it would be great to hear from some of you guys. Please any advice is very welcome. I'm not an expert and don't have any professional knowledge - I just have basic knowledge rooted from the research I do on a day to basis so don't be shy with any forthcoming suggestions.
I would love to hear of any other medications I could try for this particualr bout of depression (Dark, morbid thoughts, not much anxiety, anger at myself and others, low self esteem, emotionally masochistic) . Also are there any other forms of therapy out there? (doesn't mater how wacky)... What about lifestlye choices? (things that have worked for you)...

I'll be posting this on both Mind&Muscle and Imminst as they are the best two recources on the interent. Some of the advice I have recieved on these sites has been invaluable.

I am aware of dfowler's thread at the moment and I am keeping a close eye on it. The reason I have posted my own thread here is becasue depression is such a comlplex and individual thing. Plus I have raised things that are personal to me and my persistant mood disorder.

Thanks for reading

Edited by Thorsten, 01 October 2010 - 12:52 PM.

[Joseph_Dantes]

I used to struggle with depression.

While I learned many things, and developed greatly as a person through my struggle, the solution for me was purely biological.

If I go back to my old biological inputs, the depression returns. If I stick to my new system, I am a happy person. Like a light switch.

Here's what I do:

1. I eat one fresh boiled fish per day, that I bought LIVE at the supermarket that same day. Micronutrients.
2. I mostly eat fatty and lean cuts of meat, usually fried in their own juices. Fatty means > 1/6 lard. Marbling doesn't count.
3. I also eat some fresh fruit.
4. I eat nothing else. No additives, vegetables, chemicals, oils, etc etc etc. Nada. Not even restaurant food.

That's it. Simple to tell, but took a long time to figure out. Good luck.

If you'd like more detail, my blog talks about everything I've done.

Edited by Joseph_Dantes, 01 October 2010 - 01:58 PM.

[eposos]

Thorsten,

I have also experienced depression, anxiety , ADD, anger/mood swings and can sympathize greatly with your situation.
I have a few recommendations that have worked for me, I suggest you pursue more information related to these suggestions to see if
this advice may help:

1) Read "The Mood Cure" - by Juila Ross: http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0670030694
insights in this book helped me tremendously.

2) Try L-Tyrosine and Phenylalanine(DLPA) - precusors to Catecholmines, (Dopamine etc.) which may help stabilize/balance your brain chemistry.

3) Try L-Glutamine: helps produce GABA which is your brains natural valium, works great for me.

4) Try B-Complex Vitamins especially B6 (both types) as well as B12 in addition to Magnesium Glycinate as well as Zinc Picolinate.

5) Diet: I know you mentioned that it had little effect, but maintianing a good, healthy diet is the foundation to brain health.
Do not eat sugar or refined carbohydrates - baked goods, avoid soft drinks, sweets, candy, chocolate as well as coffee and alcohol.
You have to be militant about this and avoid these foods completely.

Eat protein rich brain food:
- chicken (eat the fat and skin, this is healthy for you and your brain)
- turkey
- wild game, cornish hens
- wild caught salmon
- beef (organic, grass fed if possible, with the FAT)
- walnuts
- cottage cheese (if you have no allegeries to dairy - high in protein)
- blueberries
- avocado
- drink plenty of water and greet tea
- eggs
- natural, organic butter

6) Keep exercising
- 4 days a week for 30-40 miuntes, you do not need alot to get positive effects.
- Yoga is hghly recommended as well as a simple, brisk walk for at least 25 minutes.

7) Get at least 7-8 hours of sleep night, sleep is fundamental to brain health. Try melatonin if falling asleep is difficult.

8) Do you have silver fillings in your mouth? I believe that the mercury in silver fillings has
negative effects on brain functioning and health. Investigate this subject and if you have silver
fillings you may consider addressing this issue. Any metal in your mouth is a bad idea, this includes
crowns, root canals etc.

The above suggestions in addition to professional guidance related to prescribed meds/SSRI's
should slowly give you results. Also when you are feeling good and strong enough, take 15 minutes
out from your day and meditate - visualize your brain healing, that it is strong and healthy and working
perfectly - repeating to yourself that my brain is healing, my brain is healthy, strong and balanced.

Any positive thoughts associated with your situation and brain health will have an effect. I hope that these
suggestions will be of use to you and my best to you in your path to recovery and full health - e

[bobdrake12]

Thorsten,

Depression is a condition that I don't understand although my mom and dad both had significant problems in that area.

I loved playing sports, studying and being with women when I was a kid; and just focused on pursuing my goals.

I feel that you've been given some good advice from the people who wrote the posts up above.

I've included excerpts from articles below which might also be of some help to you.

http://www.empowher....-avoid?page=0,0

According to the section, "Eat Your Way Out of Depression," there are eight foods that people with depression should avoid (and probably people without depression to avoid some of the symptoms):

1) Sugar: It can leave you depressed and tired after the initial energy boost. Sugar has always been hard to cut out of my diet but I've been getting better. I need to eventually limit myself to low-sugar juice and cereal, since those have been my weak points recently.

2) White-flour products: According to the book, these products lack nutritional value. I already get whole-wheat bread but pizza is another story, I suppose. Same with crackers, rolls and bagels. I need to convince myself to eat more Wheat Thins, since there is a line of 100% whole grain Wheat Thins (and Fig Newtons).

3) Alcohol: This is known to be a depressant and can cause sleep problems, according to the book. No problem, since I'm underage. Besides, alcohol contains empty calories.

4) Caffeine: Anything with caffeine should be limited, especially coffee and soda (which is also under the sugar section). Coffee isn't a problem since I hate the taste. I usually don't drink soda with caffeine, so the only problem would be chocolate and sugar in general.

5) Hydrogenated fats: According to the book, these are found in margarine, potato chips, crackers, cookies, fast food, etc. They have "high concentrations of trans-fatty acids" and can "cause serious disease." I definitely should be more aware of this.

6) Chemical food additives: Some examples are BHA, BHT, nitrites, monosodium glutamate and nitrates. These can be found in artificial sweeteners, artificial preservatives and foods with artificial colors and artificial flavorings. This will definitely be hard to avoid completely.

7) Fluoride: This incudes water, toothpaste and vitamins. Shocking, considering this is a popular ingredient in toothpaste and probably recommended by dentists everywhere.

8) Chloride: This can be found in water and is toxic. According to the book, a carbon filter can remove chlorine from tap water.

For the most part, as a kid, I avoided all 8 foods described above and now go out of my way to avoid all 8 including using a double water filtering system to take out the chloride and flouride from my drinking water as well as not using any toothpaste that uses flouride as an ingrediant.

http://www.naturalnews.com/020611.html

The five foods for beating depression

Fish oils: Contain omega-3 fatty acids. Research has shown that depressed people often lack a fatty acid known as EPA. Participants in a 2002 study featured in the Archives of General Psychiatry took just a gram of fish oil each day and noticed a 50-percent decrease in symptoms such as anxiety, sleep disorders, unexplained feelings of sadness, suicidal thoughts, and decreased sex drive. Omega-3 fatty acids can also lower cholesterol and improve cardiovascular health. Get omega-3s through walnuts, flaxseed and oily fish like salmon or tuna.
Another top food for delivering imega-3 fatty acids is chia, and we currently recommend two sources for chia seeds:

Good Cause Wellness
IntegratedHealth.com

Brown Rice: Contains vitamins B1 and B3, and folic acid. Brown rice is also a low-glycemic food, which means it releases glucose into the bloodstream gradually, preventing sugar lows and mood swings. Brown rice also provides many of the trace minerals we need to function properly, as well as being a high-fiber food that can keep the digestive system healthy and lower cholesterol. Instant varieties of rice do not offer these benefits. Any time you see "instant" on a food label, avoid it.

Brewer's Yeast: Contains vitamins B1, B2 and B3. Brewer's yeast should be avoided if you do not tolerate yeast well, but if you do, mix a thimbleful into any smoothie for your daily dose. This superfood packs a wide assortment of vitamins and minerals in a small package, including 16 amino acids and 14 minerals. Amino acids are vital for the nervous system, which makes brewer's yeast a no-brainer for treating depression.

Whole-grain oats: Contain folic acid, pantothenic acid and vitamins B6 and B1. Oats help lower cholesterol, are soothing to the digestive tract and help avoid the blood sugar crash-and-burn that can lead to crabbiness and mood swings. Other whole grains such as kamut, spelt and quinoa are also excellent choices for delivering brain-boosting nutrients and avoiding the pitfalls of refined grains such as white flour.

Cabbage: Contains vitamin C and folic acid. Cabbage protects against stress, infection and heart disease, as well as many types of cancers, according to the American Association for Cancer Research. There are numerous ways to get cabbage into your diet; toss it in a salad instead of lettuce, use cabbage in place of lettuce wraps, stir fry it in your favorite Asian dish, make some classic cabbage soup or juice it. To avoid gas after eating cabbage, add a few fennel, caraway or cumin seeds before cooking. Cabbage is also a good source of blood-sugar-stabilizing fiber, and the raw juice of cabbage is a known cure for stomach ulcers.

Also worth mentioning: Foods like raw cacao, dark molasses and brazil nuts (high in selenium) are also excellent for boosting brain function and eliminating depression. Get raw cacao and brazil nuts at Nature's First Law. Another source for cacao is Navitas Naturals.


Things to avoid

If you feel you are depressed or at risk for depression, you also need to avoid certain foods and substances. Some commonly prescribed drugs -- such as antibiotics, barbiturates, amphetamines, pain killers, ulcer drugs, anticonvulsants, beta-blockers, anti-Parkinson's drugs, birth control pills, high blood pressure drugs, heart medications and psychotropic drugs -- contribute to depression. If you are taking any of these, don't quit them without talking to your doctor; but be aware that they may be contributing to your condition by depleting your body of depression-fighting vitamins and minerals.
You should also avoid caffeine, smoking and foods high in fat and sugar. Keeping your blood sugar stable and getting B vitamins is important for stabilizing your mood. Cacao can be good for mood because it releases endorphins in the brain, but watch out for milk chocolate and candy varieties high in sugar.


Other non-food things to do

Get plenty of sunshine. Natural sunlight is a proven cure for depression.
Engage in regular exercise at least three times per week. Exercise lifts and mood and alters brain chemistry in a positive way.
Experience laughter. It's good medicine.
Take a quality superfood supplement to get even more natural medicine from the world of plants.

The omega-3 fatty acids are especially of worth. I have my blood tested with a dark field microscope. Those trained in this area can spot dietary deficiencies. Even though I was taking an omega-3 capsul (2000 mg wild fish extract) a day, I've needed to raise that quantity to 3 Super Omega-3 capsules from Life Extension.

Hopefully, this helps, Thorsten,

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 01 October 2010 - 04:15 PM.

[winston]

It seems you know more about these matters than I do, but I would emphasize the importance of finding a good therapist. Allot of people speak very strongly about their positive effect.
I know there are some free options in some places, so don't lets finances limit you.

As for SSRIs, my experience with one has been wonderful. I tried literely 20 supplements and not one did anything. Then I went on zoloft and things have been so much better now.
I got lucky by picking an SSRI which worked well for me, but I would advice you to try quite a few before giving up. It's quite normal for the average patient to go threw two, three, or four before they find what works best for them without too many side effects.


Your plan of action looks great though. I would just invest the time in trying different SSRIs. Zoloft has been said to be one of the best for low side effects.

[adamh]

I agree with the advice about diet, in particular to avoid sugar and flour along with processed foods. Get plenty of veggies and fruits. Take a good multi along with fish oil capsules every day.

You have to do what works for you and do it consistently. Doing things for a little while and forgetting is not good. Talking therapy rarely works but can't hurt. Go out and get involved with other people. Volunteer work is good.

[FunkOdyssey]

Also thorston if you've never tried methylfolate you should, that does remarkable things for some people with depression.

[ajnast4r]

http://www.amazon.co...85987211&sr=8-1

[Lufega]

Increase your Fat intake to equal roughly 60% of your total calories INCLUDING saturated fats.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Increase your Fat intake to equal roughly 60% of your total calories INCLUDING saturated fats.

Lufega that advice is somewhat dangerous.

Eating too much fat brings nausea and increased susceptibility to heat stroke.

After one gets over one's cultural aversion to eating fat, one should eat fat only to taste.

I attempted to optimize fat vs protein ratios for a long time, without success. I was missing micronutrients - fresh (live bought) fish solved the problem. Fresh fruit helped too.

[outsider]

Try magnesium.

Magnesium defidiency is a deep society problem right now.

Here is something:

http://mangans.blogs...-d-and-how.html

In a paper I recently came across, Rapid recovery from major depression using magnesium treatment (pdf), the author writes about several case studies in which magnesium supplements brought about a complete cure from depression, as well as better mental performance in some cases. It seems that magnesium deficiency is widespread; according to this paper, nearly 90% of the American population ingests less than the (already minimal) RDA. Add to that the fact that numerous conditions can cause a significant depletion of body magnesium, conditions such as the drinking of alcohol and catecholamine elevation caused by stress, and you've got the makings of a massively widespread deficiency. 

Back to depression. The paper's author found that magnesium supplementation cures major depression in as few as 7 days. There are good reasons why this should be so. Michael Maes, a "highly cited" scientist and physician, has found that pro-inflammatory cytokines may be at the root of depression, which is, in other words, a physical illness. Magnesium deficiency results in a major increase in inflammatory cytokines. For much, much more, try this Google Scholar page on magnesium and inflammation.

[vasra]

I feel for you Thorsten.

To your post, I would add :

- Vitamin D, esp. during dark/winter months (do a Medline search on this, if you need the refs)
- Plenty of good quality sleep (not over-sleeping all the time)
- Meeting funny and happy people who make YOU feel happy (it may take time, but if you connect, this does help a lot of of people)

If you are prone to anxiety or perfectionism in addition to depression, then I recommend taking behavioral therapy (new habit formation) while under SSRI medication to prevent a relapse.

Best of luck,

[smithx]

Magnesium for treatment-resistant depression: a review and hypothesis.

Eby GA 3rd, Eby KL.

George Eby Research Institute, 14909-C Fitzhugh Road, Austin, Texas 78736, USA. george.eby@george-eby-research.com
Abstract

Sixty percent of cases of clinical depression are considered to be treatment-resistant depression (TRD). Magnesium-deficiency causes N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) coupled calcium channels to be biased towards opening, causing neuronal injury and neurological dysfunction, which may appear to humans as major depression. Oral administration of magnesium to animals led to anti-depressant-like effects that were comparable to those of strong anti-depressant drugs. Cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) magnesium has been found low in treatment-resistant suicidal depression and in patients that have attempted suicide. Brain magnesium has been found low in TRD using phosphorous nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, an accurate means for measuring brain magnesium. Blood and CSF magnesium do not appear well correlated with major depression. Although the first report of magnesium treatment for agitated depression was published in 1921 showing success in 220 out of 250 cases, and there are modern case reports showing rapid terminating of TRD, only a few modern clinical trials were found. A 2008 randomized clinical trial showed that magnesium was as effective as the tricyclic anti-depressant imipramine in treating depression in diabetics and without any of the side effects of imipramine. Intravenous and oral magnesium in specific protocols have been reported to rapidly terminate TRD safely and without side effects. Magnesium has been largely removed from processed foods, potentially harming the brain. Calcium, glutamate and aspartate are common food additives that may worsen affective disorders. We hypothesize that - when taken together - there is more than sufficient evidence to implicate inadequate dietary magnesium as the main cause of TRD, and that physicians should prescribe magnesium for TRD. Since inadequate brain magnesium appears to reduce serotonin levels, and since anti-depressants have been shown to have the action of raising brain magnesium, we further hypothesize that magnesium treatment will be found beneficial for nearly all depressives, not only TRD.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19944540

According to the USDA, 61% of the US population does not meet the US RDA for levels of magnesium: http://www.ars.usda....htm?docid=15779

[Thorsten3]

Thanks for all these replies it's brilliant to recieve your help and advice.

I'm doing a bit better these past couple of days. I have been taking 10mg of Citalopram at night and this lessens the agitation and anxiety during the day. Unfortunately the effects pretty much wear off going into the evening of the following day so this isn't something I will be able to keep up for long. I have Escitalopram arriving at some point so I will look forward to trying that at a low dose to see if it helps me. Citalopram wasn't a choice of mine it was something prescribed by my doc a few months back that I just happened to have laying around.
A lot of recommendations regarding diet. I would consider my diet to be not too bad but I still eat crap too because of my job (on the go all the time, other people cooking for me,etc). Maybe this is an area I need to improve further, it could help a lot I suppose and there is no harm in trying it. The idea of buying live fish is something I might pursue if I can find these places that sell it.
I eat a fair amount of fat (never too much saturated) which has helped my mood and sleep in the past so this is another suggestion I may look further into.

To the guy who recommended that book. Thanks it looks very interesting I have bought a copy. In addition to this I plan on actually trying to look for a therapist. I have had therapy before a few years back which actually helped me.

Funk has recommended Methyl folate. I actually have some folinic acid currently and it says on the bottle that it is the precurser to l-methyl folate. I've never really taken this stuff properly so will give this a go too as of tommorrow.

Again thanks

[FunkOdyssey]

Folinic acid bypasses the DHFR step in folate metabolism but won't help at all the MTHFR polymorphisms. You'd need actual methylfolate, and it is specifically methylfolate that is now sold as an antidepressant adjunct drug (Deplin).

Funk has recommended Methyl folate. I actually have some folinic acid currently and it says on the bottle that it is the precurser to l-methyl folate. I've never really taken this stuff properly so will give this a go too as of tommorrow.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 05 October 2010 - 05:57 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Folinic acid bypasses the DHFR step in folate metabolism but won't help at all the MTHFR polymorphisms. You'd need actual methylfolate, and it is specifically methylfolate that is now sold as an antidepressant adjunct drug (Deplin).

Funk has recommended Methyl folate. I actually have some folinic acid currently and it says on the bottle that it is the precurser to l-methyl folate. I've never really taken this stuff properly so will give this a go too as of tommorrow.

Thanks I never knew this

[medievil]

I hope you find a way to feel better thorsten, srry dont have much of other help to contribute.

[Rational Madman]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Edited by Rol82, 06 October 2010 - 12:59 PM.

[Thorsten3]

I hope you find a way to feel better thorsten, srry dont have much of other help to contribute.

cheers mate

[Thorsten3]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Err I don't know of what it would be described as so I will describe the symptons I have:

Listening to this is probably depressing in itself so you have to love the irony:

1. Dark morbid thought patterns - (anger at myself and other people) - frustration at other people - The thought patterns go around in circles which results in me feeling worse most of the time.
2. Become obsessed by ongoing relationships around me (at work and general life) - where do I fit in? - If I don't fit in this causes me to become distressed, angry, frustrated and I take this out on myself and others around me. I must appear to be a right douche sometimes. I know I can certainly become difficult because of this.
3. In some areas I may appear to be a confident guy as I seem to function fairly normally in everyday society but deep inside I do have very bad self esteem. The idea of picking up girls would scare the hell out of me. For the past few years I have been hoping to meet the love of my life through chance and opportunity. The thing is I am slowly learning that I am not in control of my destiny because of this. I display no signs of assertive behaviour. I know this all about practical application and there are self help books, courses I could go on so might be worth looking into.
4. I don't seem to get anxiety much now but it is still there if I go into uncertain situations. This would be apparant if I did something new. But I know this is the case for everybody. None of us like things that are out of our comfort zone.

I've tried:

1. Citalopram @20mg per day. Severe anxiety/agitation so never got past week two.
2. Paraoxetine @20mg per day. Same as above.
3. Trivastal (can't remember dosage). Made me a bit robotic.
4. Tianeptine @12.5mg thrice daily. Helped mood but didn't stop my thought patterns. If anything probably increased it.
5. Agomelatine @25mg. This kind of worked but I got sick of being in that constant state of arousal. The sleep effect didn't last and I ended up waking many times during the night.
6. SJW Perika @300mg twice daily. I had a postive reaction to it but I lost interest. I am currently giving it another go (gonna trial it properly for a few weeks) as I have decided against going the SSRI route. It does still interest me how each SSRI I have ever taken stops these obsessive damaging thought loops. Is there anything else out there that does this?

Looking at this list I don't think I have really explored much in the way of anti-depressants.

Edited by Thorsten, 06 October 2010 - 01:54 PM.

[Rational Madman]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Err I don't know of what it would be described as so I will describe the symptons I have:

Listening to this is probably depressing in itself so you have to love the irony:

1. Dark morbid thought patterns - (anger at myself and other people) - frustration at other people - The thought patterns go around in circles which results in me feeling worse most of the time.
2. Become obsessed by ongoing relationships around me (at work and general life) - where do I fit in? - If I don't fit in this causes me to become distressed, angry, frustrated and I take this out on myself and others around me. I must appear to be a right douche sometimes. I know I can certainly become difficult because of this.
3. In some areas I may appear to be a confident guy as I seem to function fairly normally in everyday society but deep inside I do have very bad self esteem. The idea of picking up girls would scare the hell out of me. For the past few years I have been hoping to meet the love of my life through chance and opportunity. The thing is I am slowly learning that I am not in control of my destiny because of this. I display no signs of assertive behaviour. I know this all about practical application and there are self help books, courses I could go on so might be worth looking into.
4. I don't seem to get anxiety much now but it is still there if I go into uncertain situations. This would be apparant if I did something new. But I know this is the case for everybody. None of us like things that are out of our comfort zone.

I've tried:

1. Citalopram @20mg per day. Severe anxiety/agitation so never got past week two.
2. Paraoxetine @20mg per day. Same as above.
3. Trivastal (can't remember dosage). Made me a bit robotic.
4. Tianeptine @12.5mg thrice daily. Helped mood but didn't stop my thought patterns. If anything probably increased it.
5. Agomelatine @25mg. This kind of worked but I got sick of being in that constant state of arousal. The sleep effect didn't last and I ended up waking many times during the night.
6. SJW Perika @300mg twice daily. I had a postive reaction to it but I lost interest. I am currently giving it another go (gonna trial it properly for a few weeks) as I have decided against going the SSRI route. It does still interest me how each SSRI I have ever taken stops these obsessive damaging thought loops. Is there anything else out there that does this?

Looking at this list I don't think I have really explored much in the way of anti-depressants.

It appears that you have a mood disorder, which is a speculation that should be confirmed through evaluation. And if confirmed, I would start with a mood stabilizer---beginning with a low dose, and titrating until the optimal dose is reached.

[Thorsten3]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Err I don't know of what it would be described as so I will describe the symptons I have:

Listening to this is probably depressing in itself so you have to love the irony:

1. Dark morbid thought patterns - (anger at myself and other people) - frustration at other people - The thought patterns go around in circles which results in me feeling worse most of the time.
2. Become obsessed by ongoing relationships around me (at work and general life) - where do I fit in? - If I don't fit in this causes me to become distressed, angry, frustrated and I take this out on myself and others around me. I must appear to be a right douche sometimes. I know I can certainly become difficult because of this.
3. In some areas I may appear to be a confident guy as I seem to function fairly normally in everyday society but deep inside I do have very bad self esteem. The idea of picking up girls would scare the hell out of me. For the past few years I have been hoping to meet the love of my life through chance and opportunity. The thing is I am slowly learning that I am not in control of my destiny because of this. I display no signs of assertive behaviour. I know this all about practical application and there are self help books, courses I could go on so might be worth looking into.
4. I don't seem to get anxiety much now but it is still there if I go into uncertain situations. This would be apparant if I did something new. But I know this is the case for everybody. None of us like things that are out of our comfort zone.

I've tried:

1. Citalopram @20mg per day. Severe anxiety/agitation so never got past week two.
2. Paraoxetine @20mg per day. Same as above.
3. Trivastal (can't remember dosage). Made me a bit robotic.
4. Tianeptine @12.5mg thrice daily. Helped mood but didn't stop my thought patterns. If anything probably increased it.
5. Agomelatine @25mg. This kind of worked but I got sick of being in that constant state of arousal. The sleep effect didn't last and I ended up waking many times during the night.
6. SJW Perika @300mg twice daily. I had a postive reaction to it but I lost interest. I am currently giving it another go (gonna trial it properly for a few weeks) as I have decided against going the SSRI route. It does still interest me how each SSRI I have ever taken stops these obsessive damaging thought loops. Is there anything else out there that does this?

Looking at this list I don't think I have really explored much in the way of anti-depressants.

It appears that you have a mood disorder, which is a speculation that should be confirmed through evaluation. And if confirmed, I would start with a mood stabilizer---beginning with a low dose, and titrating until the optimal dose is reached.

What agents would you propose? I have tried Memantine which was a success for a short period. It initially stimulated me and then after a while on it stabalized my mood but I became slightly 'bubble wrapped'. I felt as if I was lacking something in the way of pleasure (or suffering anhedonia) and that's when I started on my dopaminergic drug pusuits which led me into the Trivastal's, Tianeptine's,etc. I still think my anhedonia is probably a sympton of my depression. Not feeling at ease when engaging socially and trying to feel part of the group leads to loss of reward and similar stuff like that. What are your opinions on Lithium Orotate? Is this not a mood stabalizer used for such purposes?
I know for sure that I don't have problems with GABA and acetylcholine. I feel relaxed most of the time and my mind is pretty sharp. My mood though I now know for sure absolutely sucks but I find hope from the people on here who in all fairness probably suffer with a lot worse than me and yet have found things that can work for them.

[Thorsten3]

So as things stand I am currently looking into the following:

1. Mood stabalizer - Need to research more options into this. I know my obsessive thought loops are a sympton of OCD like behaviour. I was considering this so to have it recommended by rol82 has resulted in me taking this idea more seriously.

2. Therapy - I am currently looking into

3. Diet - This has always been serious for me but over the past 8 months since starting my new job I have started slipping back into bad habits. I still eat nutritious food but I will also still eat crap as well based purely on laziness. Maybe this is doing me no favours at all? I know I react very badly to highly processed sugary foods and bad fats. I have decided to do this militant style. I don't care if people think I'm weird or this makes me a social outcast. I will drink my spiralina milkshakes in front of them

4. A new supplement regimen based on brain health. Feeling good and increasing wellbeing will hopefully give me a safety net. I have currently come up with the following per day:

- For methylation and lowering homocysteine levels (purely experimental and is something I am now going to try to see if it does make me feel better)

Calcium/Magnesium/Vitamin D3/Vitamin K2 - 1200mg/600mg/1000iu/100mcg
TMG - 1500mg
P5P - 50mg
Cerefolin - 1 tablet daily (decided against deplin as recommended by funk due to high cost. This one has marginally lower l-methylfolate and would be about $80 cheaper for 90 tabs based on the research I've done. Hopefully it would have the same benfits as deplin)

For general brain health and function -

3000mg Fish oil
180mg Idebenone (I have recently introduced this and it is actually making me feel better)
300mg Resveratrol (I already take with success)
Curcumin (I may add this)
50mg Gingko Biloba (I notice beneftis from this too, things appear more colourful which I would attribute to its vasodilation effects)

For sleep -

a) Glycine
b) Taurine
c) Maybe Melatonin. Although I don't know if I truely need it and am unsure about what the long term effects would be.

5. Start working out. Weights, running, gym. I've done it all before but I loose interest. Maybe I could take Sulbutiamine on days that I work out to boost my motivation. Motivation can be a big problem also for me. That and procrastination.

6. Becoming more social. This is the big one for me. I have totally fallen out of the loop socially and this is the biggest factor for me that is doing the most damage. I notice when I am around people that I feel good around and have a connection with, I feel brilliant (warm, empathatic, content). I have lost a lot of my freinds in the past due to reckless behaviour (drug use) so I really need to get myself back in the game socially. Any suggestions here is more than welcome.

7. Self help books. Not everyone's cup of tea but I did read one once that helped me years ago (overcoming depression written by Paul Gilbert - was based on CBT). The one recommended on mindfullness by somebody on this thread seems interesting and I have ordered a copy. I am currently reading a book called 'Buddha's Brain' which will hopefully help me in not becoming so reactant to the stress and chaos that is around me (well that's the way my brain percieves it). Hopefully it also might help me develop compassion for myself and others around me instead of the anger and hate that posions my mind and results in my suffering.

Edited by Thorsten, 06 October 2010 - 04:31 PM.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Hey dude.

Sounds like you've got a panoply of problems similar to what I suffered.

I designed my own system of meditation to overcome my social anxiety, negative emotion and lack of traction with girls. I call it Koanic Ataraxia. The common name is Deluge of the Now. It's partially covered at my blog: http://josephsblog.typepad.com/shorts

I'll get around to fully writing it up later.

Anyway, you really want to find out whether this is ALL diet related. Find yourself some vacation time where you can control your environment. Get some live fish. Maybe go somewhere coastal. Drop all your meds. Stop eating anything but live fish, cooked immediately, boiled plain, no pressure cooker, nothing fancy, don't overcook. Eat with your fingers. No additives. You get the idea.

If your condition is like mine, you'll see immediate improvement, like instant major mood boost. Laughing out loud to yourself. And full recovery in about 3 days of all symptoms.

You can microtest this by dropping all drugs and eating nothing but plain boiled or fried lean and fatty cuts of frozen fish and meat. Pay particular attention to how you react to the fatty (i.e. 30% plus lard) cuts. If your mood immediately elevates then you're on the right track. You might also include some small amounts of fresh fruit like apples or pears - not citrus or grapes or watermelon or other watery very sweet or acidic fruits. But add that after running the meat test.

Drugs are great, don't get me wrong. But you need to eliminate all variables to test your diet first. Then add the drugs if you're still having trouble.

[Thorsten3]

Hey dude.

Sounds like you've got a panoply of problems similar to what I suffered.

I designed my own system of meditation to overcome my social anxiety, negative emotion and lack of traction with girls. I call it Koanic Ataraxia. The common name is Deluge of the Now. It's partially covered at my blog: http://josephsblog.typepad.com/shorts

I'll get around to fully writing it up later.

Anyway, you really want to find out whether this is ALL diet related. Find yourself some vacation time where you can control your environment. Get some live fish. Maybe go somewhere coastal. Drop all your meds. Stop eating anything but live fish, cooked immediately, boiled plain, no pressure cooker, nothing fancy, don't overcook. Eat with your fingers. No additives. You get the idea.

If your condition is like mine, you'll see immediate improvement, like instant major mood boost. Laughing out loud to yourself. And full recovery in about 3 days of all symptoms.

You can microtest this by dropping all drugs and eating nothing but plain boiled or fried lean and fatty cuts of frozen fish and meat. Pay particular attention to how you react to the fatty (i.e. 30% plus lard) cuts. If your mood immediately elevates then you're on the right track. You might also include some small amounts of fresh fruit like apples or pears - not citrus or grapes or watermelon or other watery very sweet or acidic fruits. But add that after running the meat test.

Drugs are great, don't get me wrong. But you need to eliminate all variables to test your diet first. Then add the drugs if you're still having trouble.

Wow that sounds pretty impressive. I can relate to how dramatic diet can be to your wellbeing but I'll be honest I have never eaten live fish in my life nor have I ever been fishing so my fishing skills would be lacking initially

The 'lol' thing you describe sounds interesting. Are you experiencing euphoria on a daily basis? Also staying away from dairy and wheat could be an option for me. I know these foods are unneccessary and could be contributing to my condition (whatever is causing it).

I've had a look around your blog and it seems pretty extensive. I'll have to have a proper look when I have more time as there appears to be some interesting stuff on there.

Is there any way I could get this live fish via the internet by the way? I understand it wouldn't be fully live due to the fact that it would be frozen after it was caught but it would be the only practical way I could do this unforunately. I can't move to the sea (as much as I'd love to) due to the mortgage I currently have. Once I sell up (maybe in a couple of years) this might be a possibility. The UK has the best some of the best seaside resorts (dam expensive to live there though)

[Joseph_Dantes]

Hi Thorsten,

First, congrats on actively pursuing a cure and being open minded. All I can tell you is what works for me. I put very little stock in conventional wisdom or alternative wisdom; for me everything must be tested in self experimentation.

I don't eat the fish live, I just buy them live and boil them immediately, then eat them.

The euphoria bit occurs after a period of deprivation, when you first get missing fat or micronutrients. It's very powerful but it doesn't continue unless you deprive yourself again.

Definitely cutting dairy and wheat should be your first step. Wheat knocks me out for a week, as does processed sugar.

Again all you need is a short vacation to somewhere coastal, or a large city with a live fish market, that lasts 1-3 days to test this. To test it where you're living right now, just drop down to an all meat diet, ensuring you get sufficient fat.

Good luck,
JD

[Thorsten3]

Hi Thorsten,

First, congrats on actively pursuing a cure and being open minded. All I can tell you is what works for me. I put very little stock in conventional wisdom or alternative wisdom; for me everything must be tested in self experimentation.

I don't eat the fish live, I just buy them live and boil them immediately, then eat them.

The euphoria bit occurs after a period of deprivation, when you first get missing fat or micronutrients. It's very powerful but it doesn't continue unless you deprive yourself again.

Definitely cutting dairy and wheat should be your first step. Wheat knocks me out for a week, as does processed sugar.

Again all you need is a short vacation to somewhere coastal, or a large city with a live fish market, that lasts 1-3 days to test this. To test it where you're living right now, just drop down to an all meat diet, ensuring you get sufficient fat.

Good luck,
JD

Thanks man.

I am considering the possibilty of doing the wheat and dairy thing for real but I need to find food that is going to replace it. 90% of my diet is dairy and wheat. I love it too, but I know that is the sign of possible food allergies. You often crave your poison. I need to think about this seriously. Come up with some alternatives that I can use on a daily basis consistently.

[Thorsten3]

Since introducing TMG a couple of days ago I am noticing a strange 'buzzing' sensation. I feel a lot more motivated. An energized feeling which is quite pleasant actually. It lasts throughout the day too. This one is a keeper for now.

I currently take TMG with methyl cobalamin, folinic acid (will be switching to cerefolin), P5P, calcium and magnesium (twice daily), zinc and my usual anti-oxidants.

I am also taking perika at the moment just for the serotonin boosting effects. I know the low serotonin is the result of my depression. That's the reason citalopram had such a dramatic effect on my mood. It was like a light switch suddenly flipping on. I became optimistic, almost joyous and the miserable pessism dissapated into dust. It does make wonder what other AD's might be out there that could have such similar effects. I do still have escitalopram on the way. Despite now deciding that I don't want to pursue the SSRI option due to the side effects I will trial low dose escitalopram at some point in the future if all other options become exhausted first (diet, exercise, practical application). Anyway, the effect I am currently getting from perika are not as dramatic but it's all I have for now. Plus I never gave it a proper chance so I am going too keep taking it for a period of weeks to give it a proper go. The side effect profile is definitely good and I am definitely interested in its sleep enhancing qualities.
I would be interested in hearing from people who could recommend any mood stabalizing medications. I'm not going to jump into anything. As discussed above I am going to sort my diet out completely before pursuing pharmaceuticals. I don't think they are bad, I've certainly experienced some beautiful mood states on them but I need to find something that is actually right for me.

Edited by Thorsten, 07 October 2010 - 10:11 AM.

[Joseph_Dantes]

You often crave your poison. I need to think about this seriously. Come up with some alternatives that I can use on a daily basis consistently.

My favorite food are these fatty fish fillets. They're like 30% lard. I fill a frying pan 2/3 full of water and boil them first. Then, when the water's boiled off, I chop up the now soft meat with a spatula to release the oil and let it fry in its own fat. I turn it over so there's crisp crackling on both sides. This tastes like anything fried and breaded you've ever eaten, except better.

You can also substitute delicious tender steaks, pork chops, chicken drumsticks, whatever other meats appeal to you.

Finally, one or two pieces of fruit per day should be fine and will taste very intense after your tastebuds de-acclimatize from sugar.

[Thorsten3]

You often crave your poison. I need to think about this seriously. Come up with some alternatives that I can use on a daily basis consistently.

My favorite food are these fatty fish fillets. They're like 30% lard. I fill a frying pan 2/3 full of water and boil them first. Then, when the water's boiled off, I chop up the now soft meat with a spatula to release the oil and let it fry in its own fat. I turn it over so there's crisp crackling on both sides. This tastes like anything fried and breaded you've ever eaten, except better.

You can also substitute delicious tender steaks, pork chops, chicken drumsticks, whatever other meats appeal to you.

Finally, one or two pieces of fruit per day should be fine and will taste very intense after your tastebuds de-acclimatize from sugar.

Lard, is that healthy? Or full of good fats in this form?

I am wondering if this live fish that you speak of might be bought at the supermarket? My local Tesco's always has a range of fish that is not cooked but is frozen in ice and on display with some guy in a hat stood behind it (it's pretty pricey though). I realise it would have some mileage to it so wouldn't be as fresh as yours perhaps - but being as practical as possible with me living 60 miles from the sea it might be the only answer for me?

I agree about the fruit thing. I always eat at least two or three pieces (mostly oranges, apples and bananas). Blueberries are my favourite but they are a rarity because I don't know what they have been sprayed with. My mum actually grows them which is cool but I didn't get any this year because the birds ate them. Lucky birds.

On a side note I have actually found an online UK supermarket that sells wheat and dairy free products. They sell a lot of foods like pizzas, biscuits, etc which is no doubt still laced with sugar and salt but it is a source I can use to purchase things like flour and milk and other things that I'll need to bulk up my diet once I give up wheat and dairy. I'm very wary of anything that contains sugar (in any form) so I won't be buying anything until I have read the ingredients listings.

Edited by Thorsten, 07 October 2010 - 01:47 PM.