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advice for a complicated case?


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#1 penisbreath

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:37 AM


I've posted about my case recently on M&M (and here at imminst in the past), though was interested in canvassing the opinions of posters like Animal and Rol82 here as well if possible, since it's taken me close to 3 years to gain a definitive understanding of my own history sans psychological defenses and whatnot, and this is probably my most crystallized version of it . .

I suffer from a pretty complex amalgam of ADHD and OCD (seems to be all the rage these days, huh). I was declared academically gifted as a child and went to a semi-elite high school which employed tracking (i.e. grouping students according to their test results). As a member of the upper echelon, we were groomed for medical school and also covertly instilled with a sense of superiority, which is basically a roundabout way of explaining how I developed coping mechanisms for my ADHD, whereby I would tell myself that I could concentrate if I wanted to, etc. That system even managed to get me halfway through college (doing an arts degree), until, unable to account for why it took me months to finish books despite my intelligence level, and caving under all the stress, I finally developed OCD symptoms.

I didn't really seek help for the OCD (it was missed by the handful of psychologists I initially saw), and instead lived in a state of semi-trauma/hypervigilance for nearly 3 years. SSRI's (I tried Prozac, Lexapro, Luvox and Paxil) killed the anxiety, but until 6 months ago, I had no idea why they were exacerbating my concentration issues; regardless, I'd always taper off them, since my psychiatrists would dismiss the concentration difficulties as lingering depression/anxiety.

Around 2 years ago, I finally caved into severe depression (resembling negative schizo. in quality), and was put on Nardil, which was effectively immediately, but destroyed my sleep and, as per usual, didn't help my ADD symptoms. My life was pretty unmanageable at that point due to the anxiety, but I basically lost a $15k writing grant, a scholarship for postgraduate study, and a position as editor of an arts magazine due to lack of proper treatment.

I tried seeing a couple of other psychs, but was always told the same thing - high anxiety - until I started working with a therapist for the OCD, which helped me uncover the ADHD. It's taken 1+ years, but I'm finally on the verge of being correctly diagnosed (quite the feat here in the Southern hemisphere), and am wondering what the best treatment plan might be. I'm undergoing neuropsychiatric testing at the moment, and have found a GP who is active in the promotion of ADHD (particularly where correct diagnoses are often thwarted here due to political bias).

FWIW, my depression symptoms largely revolve around anergia, a lack of motivation, mental sluggishness and concentration issues and social withdrawal. I'm on clomipramine at the moment, which has resolved the anergia, anhedonia and what not, but failed to help my anxiety or my executive function (which I didn't really expect it to). I'm tapering off it though due to some unexpected movement side-effects and sleep disturbances.

One thing that especially concerns me is that shortly after immigrating 5 months ago, I began to experience a panic-like anxiety which would last all day and also be accompanied by a sense of impending doom (without ever erupting into real panic). I also began to experience dissociative-type symptoms, as well as crippling fatigue. A sleep study revealed a depression-related lack of deep sleep, though I'm wondering if these might be the aftermath of PTSD or some adjustment disorder. I found Neurontin helped that specific anxiety, and relieved the fatigue, but was causing too much sedation and brain fog.

The other thing I should note is that I was given a Dexedrine prescription before I immigrated, and have found that it has a number of benefits (despite only trying low doses a couple of times) - anxiety-relief, improvement of my baseline attention (typically 45 minutes or so when reading), a normalization of my socialization habits (I can carry on normal conversations, rather than interrupting people with witty comments every 2 minutes), and most importantly, a correction of my processing difficulties, so that I can pursue complex trains of thought, and most importantly read books again!

What was written in response to medievil's thread was pretty discomforting because I can relate to an extent (it was the inspiration for this thread), i.e. in lieu of a real treatment plan, I generally rely on instantaneous boosts from stuff like caffeine, exercise etc these days. and can see myself falling into a bad trap. I am also very obsessive, though sometimes not without just cause.

I've ordered Stablon to try, since I've always been curious about it (and it shows efficacy in PTSD), though I highly doubt it'll be a real solution. But I'm only meeting with my next psych in six weeks, so I have some time to experiment.

Otherwise, I take:
Thorne multivitamin
Methyl-b12
Methylfolate
High DHA fish oil
Vitamin D
Niacin and Zinc at bedtime.

I walk for 45 minutes 4 days a week, do pilates-based strength training, and also swim twice a week.

My guess is an SSRI + stimulant combination might be most appropriate. My last psychiatrist tried to prescribe abilify, though I don't envision it being as helpful as a standalone drug for attention as Dexedrine.

I'd appreciate any input you might have. Thanks a lot.

#2 penisbreath

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:04 PM

The only other point I feel compelled to add is that I have experienced manic symptoms on both the clomipramine and Nardil, though each has also had a highly deleterious effect on my sleep (through AD-induced limb jerks in the case of the former, and MAOI's well-documented insomnia in the case of the latter), so it's difficult to tell whether the effect is induced by sleep deprivation (or visa versa).

If anyone would like to know any other details, please don't feel afraid to ask; I was just trying to not to overwhelm with information.

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#3 Rational Madman

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:07 PM

I've posted about my case recently on M&M (and here at imminst in the past), though was interested in canvassing the opinions of posters like Animal and Rol82 here as well if possible, since it's taken me close to 3 years to gain a definitive understanding of my own history sans psychological defenses and whatnot, and this is probably my most crystallized version of it . .

I suffer from a pretty complex amalgam of ADHD and OCD (seems to be all the rage these days, huh). I was declared academically gifted as a child and went to a semi-elite high school which employed tracking (i.e. grouping students according to their test results). As a member of the upper echelon, we were groomed for medical school and also covertly instilled with a sense of superiority, which is basically a roundabout way of explaining how I developed coping mechanisms for my ADHD, whereby I would tell myself that I could concentrate if I wanted to, etc. That system even managed to get me halfway through college (doing an arts degree), until, unable to account for why it took me months to finish books despite my intelligence level, and caving under all the stress, I finally developed OCD symptoms.

I didn't really seek help for the OCD (it was missed by the handful of psychologists I initially saw), and instead lived in a state of semi-trauma/hypervigilance for nearly 3 years. SSRI's (I tried Prozac, Lexapro, Luvox and Paxil) killed the anxiety, but until 6 months ago, I had no idea why they were exacerbating my concentration issues; regardless, I'd always taper off them, since my psychiatrists would dismiss the concentration difficulties as lingering depression/anxiety.

Around 2 years ago, I finally caved into severe depression (resembling negative schizo. in quality), and was put on Nardil, which was effectively immediately, but destroyed my sleep and, as per usual, didn't help my ADD symptoms. My life was pretty unmanageable at that point due to the anxiety, but I basically lost a $15k writing grant, a scholarship for postgraduate study, and a position as editor of an arts magazine due to lack of proper treatment.

I tried seeing a couple of other psychs, but was always told the same thing - high anxiety - until I started working with a therapist for the OCD, which helped me uncover the ADHD. It's taken 1+ years, but I'm finally on the verge of being correctly diagnosed (quite the feat here in the Southern hemisphere), and am wondering what the best treatment plan might be. I'm undergoing neuropsychiatric testing at the moment, and have found a GP who is active in the promotion of ADHD (particularly where correct diagnoses are often thwarted here due to political bias).

FWIW, my depression symptoms largely revolve around anergia, a lack of motivation, mental sluggishness and concentration issues and social withdrawal. I'm on clomipramine at the moment, which has resolved the anergia, anhedonia and what not, but failed to help my anxiety or my executive function (which I didn't really expect it to). I'm tapering off it though due to some unexpected movement side-effects and sleep disturbances.

One thing that especially concerns me is that shortly after immigrating 5 months ago, I began to experience a panic-like anxiety which would last all day and also be accompanied by a sense of impending doom (without ever erupting into real panic). I also began to experience dissociative-type symptoms, as well as crippling fatigue. A sleep study revealed a depression-related lack of deep sleep, though I'm wondering if these might be the aftermath of PTSD or some adjustment disorder. I found Neurontin helped that specific anxiety, and relieved the fatigue, but was causing too much sedation and brain fog.

The other thing I should note is that I was given a Dexedrine prescription before I immigrated, and have found that it has a number of benefits (despite only trying low doses a couple of times) - anxiety-relief, improvement of my baseline attention (typically 45 minutes or so when reading), a normalization of my socialization habits (I can carry on normal conversations, rather than interrupting people with witty comments every 2 minutes), and most importantly, a correction of my processing difficulties, so that I can pursue complex trains of thought, and most importantly read books again!

What was written in response to medievil's thread was pretty discomforting because I can relate to an extent (it was the inspiration for this thread), i.e. in lieu of a real treatment plan, I generally rely on instantaneous boosts from stuff like caffeine, exercise etc these days. and can see myself falling into a bad trap. I am also very obsessive, though sometimes not without just cause.

I've ordered Stablon to try, since I've always been curious about it (and it shows efficacy in PTSD), though I highly doubt it'll be a real solution. But I'm only meeting with my next psych in six weeks, so I have some time to experiment.

Otherwise, I take:
Thorne multivitamin
Methyl-b12
Methylfolate
High DHA fish oil
Vitamin D
Niacin and Zinc at bedtime.

I walk for 45 minutes 4 days a week, do pilates-based strength training, and also swim twice a week.

My guess is an SSRI + stimulant combination might be most appropriate. My last psychiatrist tried to prescribe abilify, though I don't envision it being as helpful as a standalone drug for attention as Dexedrine.

I'd appreciate any input you might have. Thanks a lot.

This might be an unsatisfying answer, but you seem to be on the right track. I would proceed with a combination of a psychostimulant and an SSRI as a base, and then consider the supplementation of other antidepressants if the results are unsatisfactory. It will take time, because there really isn't a template therapy for everyone.

#4 penisbreath

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:01 PM

This might be an unsatisfying answer, but you seem to be on the right track. I would proceed with a combination of a psychostimulant and an SSRI as a base, and then consider the supplementation of other antidepressants if the results are unsatisfactory. It will take time, because there really isn't a template therapy for everyone.


No, I understand completely. My negative evaluation of SSRI's stems largely from them being misused as monotherapy in my case. Since stimulants alone cause me too much anxiety, I am very curious to see how much of an improvement in functionality I might see from combining the two.

What is your opinion on Abilify, Rol82? I worry I may have overreacted to my psychiatrist prescribing it over psychostimulants, though am I correct in assuming an SSRI + psychostimulant would be a preferable firstline alternative to Abilify? Most of my reading seems to indicate that Abilify modestly improves attention, but does not improve things like the *quality* of patients' reading and whatnot. My GP would prefer to see me tried on Dexedrine, and has arranged a referral to a psychiatrist specializing in attention issues.

#5 medievil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:03 PM

Depends on the dose, at antipsychotic doses abilify is the most likely of all to induce tardive dyskinesia, generally its a very bad idea to take antipsychotics if you arent psychotic.

I do remember an interesting thread on mind and musce showing that abilify in low doses is a very good augmenter when added to SSRI's.

Personally i would start with SSRI+ psychostimulant and then later eventually add low doses of abilify.

Edited by medievil, 26 October 2010 - 01:04 PM.

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#6 Rational Madman

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 03:47 AM

This might be an unsatisfying answer, but you seem to be on the right track. I would proceed with a combination of a psychostimulant and an SSRI as a base, and then consider the supplementation of other antidepressants if the results are unsatisfactory. It will take time, because there really isn't a template therapy for everyone.


No, I understand completely. My negative evaluation of SSRI's stems largely from them being misused as monotherapy in my case. Since stimulants alone cause me too much anxiety, I am very curious to see how much of an improvement in functionality I might see from combining the two.

What is your opinion on Abilify, Rol82? I worry I may have overreacted to my psychiatrist prescribing it over psychostimulants, though am I correct in assuming an SSRI + psychostimulant would be a preferable firstline alternative to Abilify? Most of my reading seems to indicate that Abilify modestly improves attention, but does not improve things like the *quality* of patients' reading and whatnot. My GP would prefer to see me tried on Dexedrine, and has arranged a referral to a psychiatrist specializing in attention issues.


You're quite right. I would pursue your current line of thinking, consider heeding my advice (and Medieval's), and resort to the addition of a low dose of Abilify if the results are not completely satisfactory.

Edited by Rol82, 27 October 2010 - 04:35 AM.


#7 penisbreath

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:00 AM

oh brother . . check this out: http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=43455

#8 Rational Madman

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 03:48 PM

oh brother . . check this out: http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=43455


There's a difference between suffering from possibly schizoid symptoms, and having a schizophrenia. My advice, get a new opinion. I'm willing to wager that it's highly unlikely that your case satisfies the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia. Jeez, some psychologists!? What are their credentials?

Edited by Rol82, 27 October 2010 - 03:51 PM.


#9 medievil

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 06:23 PM

oh brother . . check this out: http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=43455


There's a difference between suffering from possibly schizoid symptoms, and having a schizophrenia. My advice, get a new opinion. I'm willing to wager that it's highly unlikely that your case satisfies the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia. Jeez, some psychologists!? What are their credentials?

I agree with this, this diagnosis makes no sense whatsoever.

#10 penisbreath

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 08:07 AM

There's a difference between suffering from possibly schizoid symptoms, and having a schizophrenia. My advice, get a new opinion. I'm willing to wager that it's highly unlikely that your case satisfies the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia. Jeez, some psychologists!? What are their credentials?


Well, she has a doctorate in clinical psychology, believe it or not.

I'm curious .. how does neuropsychiatric testing work in a clinical context? Even taking into account factors like sleep deprivation and medication withdrawal (which I've related to my tester), would the results produced by a schizophrenic be easily identifiable? Or is there a lot of room for interpretation and/or conjecture, with overlaps arising between depression, schizophrenia, ADHD, etc?

#11 Rational Madman

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 10:21 AM

There's a difference between suffering from possibly schizoid symptoms, and having a schizophrenia. My advice, get a new opinion. I'm willing to wager that it's highly unlikely that your case satisfies the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia. Jeez, some psychologists!? What are their credentials?


Well, she has a doctorate in clinical psychology, believe it or not.

I'm curious .. how does neuropsychiatric testing work in a clinical context? Even taking into account factors like sleep deprivation and medication withdrawal (which I've related to my tester), would the results produced by a schizophrenic be easily identifiable? Or is there a lot of room for interpretation and/or conjecture, with overlaps arising between depression, schizophrenia, ADHD, etc?


I assumed that your psychologist had a doctorate, but I was wondering where she was educated. But otherwise, don't worry about their diagnosis, since it reeks of desperation. Rather, I would suggest you seek a second opinion.

#12 penisbreath

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 12:43 PM

I had one more question . . Rol82, I assume you're familiar with the WAIS test? I've been informed that, taken in isolation, it isn't a particularly useful diagnostic tool, and that the results need to be considered in the context of a person's case history.

I was just wondering though whether there was much overlap between the various DSM disorders and their WAIS imprints? For example, could someone who was severely depressed perform as poorly as a schizophrenic?

The reason I ask is because when I took my WAIS, I was experiencing a strange, relentless, panic-like anxiety/hypervigilance (triggered by immigration, I believe), which was definitely having strange effects on my short-term memory; it almost felt like my frontal cortex was shutting down under stress. I tried explaining the problem to the test administrator, but she was a little dismissive, noting that "everyone will experience anxiety during a test". Anyway, I've been a little concerned that I may have performed more poorly than I otherwise would have as a result. Since the test results will be released to my new psychiatrist, is there any chance that a poor score could (mistakenly) present as schizophrenia? Or would a schizophrenic produce a result that's completely unique, and unable to be replicated under other conditions (whether depression, panic, anxiety, ADHD, etc.)?

#13 Ark

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 12:48 PM

Have you been screened for environmental toxic-ons?

#14 Animal

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 06:39 PM

You need to start being completely honest with your psychiatrist/assessors rather then telling them what you believe will get you a favourable diagnosis. Exaggerating some elements of your syndrome while understating others is a sure way to confound any tests or qualified assessments.

I assume you were taking the WAIS-IV test? Which subtest caused you to experience anxiety? Because there are characteristic deficits in certain aspects of the test that are correlated with schizoid personality disorder aside from overall performance. As long as you're not over one standard deviation below the global mean you don't have to worry about your overall performance indicating schizophrenia. I've had to take the test myself after I experienced an acute manic psychotic episode, and even though my full scale IQ was over 3 standard deviations above the global mean my test still indicated a chronic low intensity depressive disorder; due to certain anomalies in two subtests which did not conform with my (g).

Your anxiety would not have influenced the potential correlative if it was present during the entire test. To me you seem fairly intelligent, so I doubt it would have compromised your cognitive abilities to the extent that you presented with a sub 85 IQ.

I would proceed with the trial of Stablon, escalating to a maximum dose of 12.5mg six times a day if you initially find it ineffective. Be careful though as it's dopaminergic sensitisation properties could potentially exacerbate any schizoid symptoms.
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#15 penisbreath

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:14 PM

You need to start being completely honest with your psychiatrist/assessors rather then telling them what you believe will get you a favourable diagnosis. Exaggerating some elements of your syndrome while understating others is a sure way to confound any tests or qualified assessments.


Sorry, but that's really not a fair statement. ADHD is treated like a curse word in the Southern Hemisphere. I'm usually met by vacant, disinterested stares and obligatory nods by psychiatrists upon trying to bring up my concentration difficulties. After living in an unrelenting brain fog for the past 2 years (which *only* responds to Dexedrine. . and believe me, I've tried everything, including irreversible MAOIs), and having lost a post-graduate scholarship and $20000 creative grant as a result, one psychiatrist suggested I get a part-time job. Stimulants don't just clear up my brain fog, though - they improve my baseline attention (despite my intelligence, I've *never* been able to read for more than 45 minutes at a time), make previously mentally laborous tasks feel effortless (it used to take me months to finish books, and I had to drop my English Lit. minor as a result because I couldn't keep up with the a-book-per-week quota), allow to process my thoughts efficiently instead of having to fight to hang onto them, etc.

The only reason I emphasize certain symptoms these days is so some prescription-pad-slinging monkey will actually pay attention. And I never hide particular sets of symptoms - I'm completely upfront about the severity of my OCD and depression. My last psychiatrist tried to treat me for schizophrenia without actually informing me of her diagnosis (I was only made aware through my therapist), so maybe medical professionals should also start being "completely honest".

I assume you were taking the WAIS-IV test? Which subtest caused you to experience anxiety? Because there are characteristic deficits in certain aspects of the test that are correlated with schizoid personality disorder aside from overall performance. As long as you're not over one standard deviation below the global mean you don't have to worry about your overall performance indicating schizophrenia. I've had to take the test myself after I experienced an acute manic psychotic episode, and even though my full scale IQ was over 3 standard deviations above the global mean my test still indicated a chronic low intensity depressive disorder; due to certain anomalies in two subtests which did not conform with my (g).


Yeah, it was the WAIS-IV test. Like I say, it wasn't the test in particular that caused any anxiety; rather, upon immigrating, I had begun to experience a incredibly unpleasant anxiety sensation which felt like raw adrenaline coursing through my body all day long. It was accompanied by painful muscle tension, a sense of impending doom, weird short-term memory difficulties and a kind of mental blankness.

Oh, um, according to my last therapist (who administered both the MMPI and PAI), I don't have schizoid personality disorder, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from? Rol82 suggested I might have schizoid traits, but it's nothing that's been confirmed in a diagnostic context.

Your anxiety would not have influenced the potential correlative if it was present during the entire test. To me you seem fairly intelligent, so I doubt it would have compromised your cognitive abilities to the extent that you presented with a sub 85 IQ.


I would proceed with the trial of Stablon, escalating to a maximum dose of 12.5mg six times a day if you initially find it ineffective. Be careful though as it's dopaminergic sensitisation properties could potentially exacerbate any schizoid symptoms.


I did start taking Stablon about 2 weeks ago. I began at 12.5mg 3x a day, which drove that panic-like anxiety I've described to unbearable heights. I've since dropped it to half a tab 3x and have found it useful for anhedonia and motivation. Unfortunately, it also causes a lot of malaise (I feel borderline sick sometimes) and exacerbates my depression-related fatigue. Um, I'm not sure about schizoid symptoms, but it does makes certain obsessive traits (like ADD-hyperfocus) worse, and has no effect on my OCD (which I didn't really expect).

#16 Ark

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:14 PM

Animal your dosage of Stablon is borderline useless you need 4x that amount to get the desired effect, be on for 8 months, then off for 6. But good overall recommendation, so keep them coming.

#17 Animal

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 06:00 PM

Animal your dosage of Stablon is borderline useless you need 4x that amount to get the desired effect, be on for 8 months, then off for 6. But good overall recommendation, so keep them coming.


What are you talking about, the recommended dosage regime for Stablon is 12.5mg 3 times per day evenly spread out over your waking hours. I suggested double that as an advisable maximum. To suggest that anyone should be taking 24 12.5mg tablets is absurd and dangerous, that's a massive overdose. 'The desired effect' in your case must be to get delirious. Also the on-off regime you suggest is quite simply bullshit, I'm sure you just pulled that out of your ass. Stablon gets more effective the longer you maintain regular dosing, and a break of 6 months would undo all the positive neurological changes that would have occurred. Not only that but if any antidepressant required a break of 6 months after less then a year of daily usage, it would be effectively useless. Stop spreading such nonsense.

Pierre, I was not stating that you have schizoid personality disorder, I was simply saying that there are certain cognitive deficits which characterise it's symptoms aside from full scale IQ. If your anxiety was a sustained symptom, then it is appropriate that you take the test while it is present. But like I said, 'performing badly' is not something to be concerned about unless you feel the anxiety somehow made you mentally retarded.

#18 kingjames24

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 10:01 PM

My Case sounds very familiar to yours I'm being treated for what my psych believes to be is major depression\ocd and the meds that have worked for me are abilify 10mg Lexapro 30mg and focalin xr 15mg I will add more info on my case if anyone ask. P.S. I got tested for ADD with CPT Test 56% chance of having it

Edited by kingjames24, 26 November 2010 - 10:01 PM.


#19 penisbreath

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 11:18 PM

Lol no Animal, I don't believe my anxiety made me mentally retarded. Would a schizophrenic's IQ fall in the realm of retardation?

#20 Ark

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 11:24 PM

Fair but, Stablon is way under dosed this is from personal experience and reading online, I even noted someone addicted who ended up eating 4 packs a day. Trust me, you need healing dosages not, profit making dosages, but caution is always the best avenue. (shrug)

Edited by Ark, 26 November 2010 - 11:24 PM.


#21 penisbreath

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 06:55 AM

My Case sounds very familiar to yours I'm being treated for what my psych believes to be is major depression\ocd and the meds that have worked for me are abilify 10mg Lexapro 30mg and focalin xr 15mg I will add more info on my case if anyone ask. P.S. I got tested for ADD with CPT Test 56% chance of having it


I did the CPT as well, which showed ADD, but my last psych said it wasn't a valid test.

Wow, 30mg of Lexapro - I had enough trouble tolerating 10mg.

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#22 Animal

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:35 PM

Lol no Animal, I don't believe my anxiety made me mentally retarded. Would a schizophrenic's IQ fall in the realm of retardation?


That was a joke about the retardation by the way. :happy:

A schizophrenic may only suffer minimal cognitive dysfunction, but the condition can be severe enough to cause a previously intelligent individual to have borderline intellectual functioning with a sub 85 full scale IQ. This is not considered retarded, but it would be considered symptomatic of a severe schizoid disorder.

My point was that unless you felt your anxiety affected your performance to this kind of extent, then you don't have to be concerned about it. Otherwise there are characteristic deficits in certain subtest which can indicate schizophrenia, and your anxiety would not have generated or exacerbated them unless they were already present.




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