21 replies to this topic

[fizzhead]

Hello all, I am looking for some supplements to take to boost my brainpower. I have take Vyvamse/Ritalin before as a study aid, but am looking for something more long-term with better overall brain function. I have trouble keeping my mind focused on tasks for extended periods of time (~60mins), and deal with moderate GAD & Social Anxiety. The only thing I currently take is a generic daily multivitamin. After a little bit of research I have come up with the following daily plan:

* Piracetam: 1500mg
* Alpha GPC (99% Choline [choline alfoscerate]): 800-1000mg
* Sulbutiamine: 600mg
* Aniracetam: ???
* Bacopa: ???
* ALCAR:???

I am having trouble finding a proper dosage of aniracetam, ALCAR, and Bacopa.

1) Any suggestions on other supplements to compliment the ones listed?
2) Are my dosages good?
3) Do I take all of these supplements daily, or are there some taken in cycles?
4) How can I determine the best time to take supplements?
5) Do any of these need to be taken with/without food?
6) Should I be taking other vitamins alongside my daily multivitamin?

Any information regarding my questions or nootropics in general will be a great help. My understanding of nootropics is still in its infancy, so any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

[kikai93]

Hey Fizzhead. It looks as though you're embarking the way that I did on this whole nootropics thing (buy a bunch of stuff and take it all at once woohoo!). I can honestly say that isn't the best way to go about it. But on the other hand, your stack looks very similar to what I've ended up with after starting over and trying things one by one. One helpful thing with dosage is to look at clinical studies, another is to start with the smallest reported effective dose and add small amounts until you can empirically verify the most effective dose for your particular makeup. I get some good effects from Picamilon in addition to these, and use Pramiracetam sparingly as a "supercharger".

Edited by kikai93, 31 October 2010 - 01:35 PM.

[fizzhead]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

[kikai93]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

Aniracetam has a short half-life, so I divide my dose into 4 and take it at 3-4 hour intervals. Piracetam, ALCAR, Magnesium, and the B vitamin analogues I do 2x/day (breakfast and lunch). Everything else is with breakfast.

[kassem23]

I'm going to do you a favor and tell you: Don't waste your time with Piracetam. Choline on itself has more valid data in human beings than does Piracetam -- just avoid it. If Vyvanse works for you, stay on it for ADHD. If you have feelings of anxiety/GAD add an low-dosage SSRI like escitalopram and you're all set.

[jlspartz]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

ALCAR is my favorite supplement so far. Piracetam is great - speeds up my mind and verbal skills, but is not good for focus, and if focus is what you need, ALCAR does that (not to the effect of ADD meds though). On ALCAR alone I feel more awake and motivated (start working on projects put off for months). Taking Piracetam and ALCAR, it's apparent my choline level gets depleted still from the Piracetam. I'd say you'd probably need both. ALCAR suggested dosage is 500mg-1.5g 2-3 times daily. I just take 1g in the morning and it lasts all day for me.

[fizzhead]

Just to clarify, I don't actually have ADD/ADHD I just take Vyvanse when necessary. I'm gonna go ahead and give this stack a try and see how it goes.

[fizzhead]

To add, I hope this isn't to naïve of me to ask but is there supposed to be a point at which people stop taking these Nootropics? IIRC they are almost completely safe to take chronically, but does the body begin to build a tolerance to these supplements at some point?

[NR2(x)]

To add, I hope this isn't to naïve of me to ask but is there supposed to be a point at which people stop taking these Nootropics? IIRC they are almost completely safe to take chronically, but does the body begin to build a tolerance to these supplements at some point?

I wouldnt be taking Alpha-GPC as it increases beta amyloid, according to
JAB said:

Starting in the mid- to late-1990s, studies conducted using a number of techniques, including in vitro solution and membrane experiments, and NMR analyses of in vivo and postmortem brains, led several researchers to conclude that increased GPC concentrations may play a role in the deposition of the Abeta plaques observed in Alzheimer's brains, and the Abeta aggregates seen in CSF from AD patients. For example, in vitro studies on GPC and Abeta in solution and mixed with erythrocyte membranes showed that GPC changes the conformation of Abeta in solution or in membranes, enhancing its aggregation in solution, and enhancing its aggregation and accumulation in the phospholipid head-group region of membranes. Other phospholipid breakdown products do not have similar effects.

from http://www.imminst.o...c-verdict-safe/
I havent found any more info regarding this, however this effect seems to be concordant with MOA. Its a real pitty as the stuff is very good.
I would take ALCAR and maybe Bacopa, on a cronic basis, as these resemble proven supplements.
The others are drugs, which usually implies atleast the benefits to the individual must be quantified before a commitment to cronic treatment can be made.

[kassem23]

No reason not to take a choline supplement, but I see no reason to avail yourself on a non-stop Piracetam journey (from micro to hyper dosing) inducing various (unpredictable) effects on its way. Drop the Piracetam and seek enhancement through other more (predictable and proven) effects.

Edited by kassem23, 02 November 2010 - 07:16 PM.

[kassem23]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

ALCAR is my favorite supplement so far. Piracetam is great - speeds up my mind and verbal skills, but is not good for focus, and if focus is what you need, ALCAR does that (not to the effect of ADD meds though). On ALCAR alone I feel more awake and motivated (start working on projects put off for months). Taking Piracetam and ALCAR, it's apparent my choline level gets depleted still from the Piracetam. I'd say you'd probably need both. ALCAR suggested dosage is 500mg-1.5g 2-3 times daily. I just take 1g in the morning and it lasts all day for me.

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

[FrequencyX]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

ALCAR is my favorite supplement so far. Piracetam is great - speeds up my mind and verbal skills, but is not good for focus, and if focus is what you need, ALCAR does that (not to the effect of ADD meds though). On ALCAR alone I feel more awake and motivated (start working on projects put off for months). Taking Piracetam and ALCAR, it's apparent my choline level gets depleted still from the Piracetam. I'd say you'd probably need both. ALCAR suggested dosage is 500mg-1.5g 2-3 times daily. I just take 1g in the morning and it lasts all day for me.

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

Touché kassem, touché. Just curious what is your supplement regimen like? How is your diet etc?

[jlspartz]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

ALCAR is my favorite supplement so far. Piracetam is great - speeds up my mind and verbal skills, but is not good for focus, and if focus is what you need, ALCAR does that (not to the effect of ADD meds though). On ALCAR alone I feel more awake and motivated (start working on projects put off for months). Taking Piracetam and ALCAR, it's apparent my choline level gets depleted still from the Piracetam. I'd say you'd probably need both. ALCAR suggested dosage is 500mg-1.5g 2-3 times daily. I just take 1g in the morning and it lasts all day for me.

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

No, Piracetam's effects are real, for me at least. I don't expect much to begin with for any supplement. I've been using it off and on for a year and a half. I didn't read much on it, and took it to help with memory initially (didn't notice much there). I actually never read the effects online until a year after taking and noticing the differences myself - and subsequently found out the reason I would feel burned out after a while and stop using it and start again, because of choline. I also didn't expect ANY effects from ALCAR except to help me with the choline source for Piracetam. It doesn't work for me as a choline source, but the other effects I found were great.

[kassem23]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

ALCAR is my favorite supplement so far. Piracetam is great - speeds up my mind and verbal skills, but is not good for focus, and if focus is what you need, ALCAR does that (not to the effect of ADD meds though). On ALCAR alone I feel more awake and motivated (start working on projects put off for months). Taking Piracetam and ALCAR, it's apparent my choline level gets depleted still from the Piracetam. I'd say you'd probably need both. ALCAR suggested dosage is 500mg-1.5g 2-3 times daily. I just take 1g in the morning and it lasts all day for me.

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

No, Piracetam's effects are real, for me at least. I don't expect much to begin with for any supplement. I've been using it off and on for a year and a half. I didn't read much on it, and took it to help with memory initially (didn't notice much there). I actually never read the effects online until a year after taking and noticing the differences myself - and subsequently found out the reason I would feel burned out after a while and stop using it and start again, because of choline. I also didn't expect ANY effects from ALCAR except to help me with the choline source for Piracetam. It doesn't work for me as a choline source, but the other effects I found were great.

If that's your subjective feeling, then that's your subjective feeling -- but a feeling is merely a feeling, and I'm pretty sure the placebo effect plays a giant role on this one. So many different reasons you could have felt burned out.

[kassem23]

Yeah I'm gonna go off of recommended dosages for the 3 unknowns and increasing until satisfied. I still have a couple of questions: Is taking the ALCAR alongside the Alpha-GPC necessary or can I drop one in favor of the other? Can I take all of these supplements at once in the morning, or is there some time schedule I must follow?

ALCAR is my favorite supplement so far. Piracetam is great - speeds up my mind and verbal skills, but is not good for focus, and if focus is what you need, ALCAR does that (not to the effect of ADD meds though). On ALCAR alone I feel more awake and motivated (start working on projects put off for months). Taking Piracetam and ALCAR, it's apparent my choline level gets depleted still from the Piracetam. I'd say you'd probably need both. ALCAR suggested dosage is 500mg-1.5g 2-3 times daily. I just take 1g in the morning and it lasts all day for me.

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

Touché kassem, touché. Just curious what is your supplement regimen like? How is your diet etc?

10 mg d-amphetamine QD and 2.5 mg escitalopram QD. It is for treating ADHD, and it's working like a miracle. The amphetamine induced anxiety and labile effects on mood are completely gone when adding a low-dosage SSRI. That said, I haven't even taken escitalopram for more than 20 days, so I can only imagine the effects to be even better in one-two weeks time. As to the diet, I have nothing special I consume. Besides that I go for HIIT runs 3 times a week to stress my cardiovascular system. The benefits are global in cognition as well. But, the key for me, was the drugs. They have been a lifesaver for me; hence my objection to wasting a lot of money and effort on something illusory as Piracetam -- people think they need to treat mental conditions with some sort of "herb" because it's natural and it can enhance their cognition. I say; look for deficits and then enhance using pharmaceuticals; or at least if you're going to use herbs, use the ones that actually have scientific backing.

[kikai93]

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

...

10 mg d-amphetamine QD and 2.5 mg escitalopram QD. It is for treating ADHD, and it's working like a miracle. The amphetamine induced anxiety and labile effects on mood are completely gone when adding a low-dosage SSRI. That said, I haven't even taken escitalopram for more than 20 days, so I can only imagine the effects to be even better in one-two weeks time. As to the diet, I have nothing special I consume. Besides that I go for HIIT runs 3 times a week to stress my cardiovascular system. The benefits are global in cognition as well. But, the key for me, was the drugs. They have been a lifesaver for me; hence my objection to wasting a lot of money and effort on something illusory as Piracetam -- people think they need to treat mental conditions with some sort of "herb" because it's natural and it can enhance their cognition. I say; look for deficits and then enhance using pharmaceuticals; or at least if you're going to use herbs, use the ones that actually have scientific backing.

Well Kassem, I guess the first thing that leaps out at me is that Piracetam isn't an herb. The second thing is that Piracetam does have scientific backing for a number of uses.
Piracetam appears to reverse the effects of aging in the brains of mice. PMID 3126530 PMID 1542379
Cognitive impairment in alcoholism: PMID 3891457 PMID 2204773 PMID 12809069 PMID 359384 PMID 446321
Alzheimer's: PMID 8437693 PMID 7997065 PMID 6433396 PMID 6408682
Vasospastic Disorders: PMID 16459490 PMID 8328997

It's a positive allosteric modulator of the AMPA receptor. It improves the function of acetylcholine when acting on muscarinic choline receptors. It may have action on NMDA glutamate receptors as well, though this is less certain.
Given all of this, I wouldn't say its effects are entirely placebo, nor would I say it is a panacea of heightened function in healthy, normal brains. It is more likely to exert a noticeable effect the older a person is, and in people with a history of alcoholism.
From my own self-study, I would say it mildly improved performance in a few areas of cognitive function, particularly in relation to physical dexterity training and visual memory, and given it's neuroprotective properties, synergy with the effects of cdp choline, aniracetam and caffeine I find it worth the negligible cost. The effects are highly dosage dependent, and it does take effort and sound records to optimize. As a side note, it also potentiates some psychedelics, and possibly amphetamine (being more or less anti-amphetamine, I can't attest to that last). I believe that Piracetam didn't work for you. I feel no need to promote my own experiences as universal. I'm curious why you do feel that need?

[kassem23]

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

...

10 mg d-amphetamine QD and 2.5 mg escitalopram QD. It is for treating ADHD, and it's working like a miracle. The amphetamine induced anxiety and labile effects on mood are completely gone when adding a low-dosage SSRI. That said, I haven't even taken escitalopram for more than 20 days, so I can only imagine the effects to be even better in one-two weeks time. As to the diet, I have nothing special I consume. Besides that I go for HIIT runs 3 times a week to stress my cardiovascular system. The benefits are global in cognition as well. But, the key for me, was the drugs. They have been a lifesaver for me; hence my objection to wasting a lot of money and effort on something illusory as Piracetam -- people think they need to treat mental conditions with some sort of "herb" because it's natural and it can enhance their cognition. I say; look for deficits and then enhance using pharmaceuticals; or at least if you're going to use herbs, use the ones that actually have scientific backing.

Well Kassem, I guess the first thing that leaps out at me is that Piracetam isn't an herb. The second thing is that Piracetam does have scientific backing for a number of uses.
Piracetam appears to reverse the effects of aging in the brains of mice. PMID 3126530 PMID 1542379
Cognitive impairment in alcoholism: PMID 3891457 PMID 2204773 PMID 12809069 PMID 359384 PMID 446321
Alzheimer's: PMID 8437693 PMID 7997065 PMID 6433396 PMID 6408682
Vasospastic Disorders: PMID 16459490 PMID 8328997

It's a positive allosteric modulator of the AMPA receptor. It improves the function of acetylcholine when acting on muscarinic choline receptors. It may have action on NMDA glutamate receptors as well, though this is less certain.
Given all of this, I wouldn't say its effects are entirely placebo, nor would I say it is a panacea of heightened function in healthy, normal brains. It is more likely to exert a noticeable effect the older a person is, and in people with a history of alcoholism.
From my own self-study, I would say it mildly improved performance in a few areas of cognitive function, particularly in relation to physical dexterity training and visual memory, and given it's neuroprotective properties, synergy with the effects of cdp choline, aniracetam and caffeine I find it worth the negligible cost. The effects are highly dosage dependent, and it does take effort and sound records to optimize. As a side note, it also potentiates some psychedelics, and possibly amphetamine (being more or less anti-amphetamine, I can't attest to that last). I believe that Piracetam didn't work for you. I feel no need to promote my own experiences as universal. I'm curious why you do feel that need?

I said this before, and I'll say it again. I don't believe in Piracetam because there's no evidence what-so-ever that shows that Piracetam improves cognition in healthy volunteers. It's efficacy is only based on people with severe neurological impairment. The popularity of Piracetam is based on its safety profile. The placebo effect can do more than you think.

And, on top of that, most people who take Piracetam on this and various other forums take a mixture of things and not only one drug at a time. This can definitely explain the discrepancy in effects. For instance, people who take take choline as adjunct to Piracetam may solely experience effects from the choline who knows? At least choline has some favorable evidence in regards to memory compared to Piracetam. Hence my obvious objection.

Edited by kassem23, 03 November 2010 - 10:42 AM.

[aLurker]

I don't believe in Piracetam because there's no evidence what-so-ever that shows that Piracetam improves cognition in healthy volunteers. It's efficacy is only based on people with severe neurological impairment.

Saying there is "no evidence what-so-ever" is a misrepresentation or misapprehension regarding the matter since there is at least some. One could argue that the studies conducted aren't enough for it to be called 'evidence' but that's more of a semantical issue. I think we all can agree that we would like to see more studies for it to be entirely convincing though.

[cougar]

I'd be willing to bet everything on the fact that the plethora of effects you achieve are solely dependent on ALCAR and Piracetam's noteworthy placebo-effect ("Wow, I really feel like the words are coming faster. It's just like I read online! Awesome!") Our expectations do more than you think.

I started taking Piracetam since about 10 years ago and I have to say Piracetam REALLY WORKED, I've attested this for a number of times and I'm sure it was not placebo effect. Unfortunately it no longer works for me now. If it was placebo effect then why I just can't have this same placebo effect back any more especially when I always expected to see the effect. I also got extremely tired on Piracetam last year when I took 4 - 8 grams a day and apparently lots of people had this kind of tiredness while on Piracetam as well and you can't say all those tiredness feeling were coincidence and were because of other factors. The only problem with Piracetam is that it doesn't work or doesn't always work for everybody, but it's effect on me was true, literally.

Edited by cougar, 03 November 2010 - 03:09 PM.

[fizzhead]

If it came down to a choice between piracetam OR aniracetam, which is the better of the two?

Also, can anybody recommend a better choline source than Alpha-GPC?

[jadamgo]

If it came down to a choice between piracetam OR aniracetam, which is the better of the two?

Aniracetam.

I don't know what your definition of "better" is when it comes to the choline supplements. In terms of highest effectiveness, Alpha-GPC is considered one of the best, or even THE best according to plenty of people.

But other highly effective choices include CDP-choline (aka citicholine) and centrophenoxine.

Edited by jadamgo, 07 November 2010 - 05:56 PM.

[kikai93]

If it came down to a choice between piracetam OR aniracetam, which is the better of the two?

Also, can anybody recommend a better choline source than Alpha-GPC?

I would choose aniracetam, based solely on my own anecdotal experiences. As a choline source, I achieved the most noticeable results from CDP Choline.
For two weeks, I used Aniracetam 750mg 4x daily, CDP Choline 250mg 4x daily, and a DHA heavy Omega 3 supplement 4x daily (500mg DHA/250mg EPA/50mg other with mixed tocopherols).

This was in comparison to Piracetam 2g 3x daily, CDP Choline 250mg 4x daily, and the same Omega 3 supplement 4x daily.

A noticeable improvement in visual acuity, and reduction in startle response was noted from day 1. As the experiment progressed, more pronounced effects were noted, as well as improvement in performance on dual n-back (from 3 to 5) and information retention (learning mandarin, memorizing various tables figures poetry, etc). There was a subjective feeling of easier flow of ideas/creativity and creative output has increased (poetry, paintings, novel, various essays, sculpture).

Weeks 3 and 4 I scaled the dosages back to 2 x daily with no noticeable reduction in effects listed. Piracetam has different and less pronounced effects for me (mild effect on verbal fluidity, mild effect on memorization tasks). Oddly, slightly reducing dosage and combining the two agents has produced the most noticeable results.

My current nootropic intake is probably on the high side for most people, a plan I've developed through self-experimentation that I don't think I'll be tweaking further unless some startlingly effective agents are discovered in the near future. I also engage in many and varied creative and intellectual endeavors compared to the general population, and this likely also has a profound effect. P-90X and daily Raja-Yoga round out the routine. Switching to CR at the first of the year to drop the remaining body fat excess and hopefully stimulate those sirtuins.

A word of caution: Anything more than one alcoholic drink while dosing any of the 'racetam supplements is probably too much.