32 replies to this topic

[motif]

Hi,
I've recently read that some meat organs e.g. hearts contains lot's of
goodies like phosphatidylserine, vitamin A, several B vitamins, iron, folic acid, copper and CoQ10.
Do you know any contra indication for eating meat organs? I usually was giving them to my cat
They're much cheaper then supplements I usually buy so is it worthy to switch?

[pobuoy]

Eating organ meats regularly with the exclusion of chicken eggs is extremely difficult in this modern day and age. Similar nutrition may be found by combining vegetables and muscles meats at the same meal, however, then the macronutrient profile of those meals are inconsistent with consuming organ meats( Organ meats are lower in carbs, and higher in protein)

With that being said, organ meats are the best natural source of vitamins a human being can consume. They are usually cheaper than muscle meats. However, be warned that since we have been raised on a diet muscle meats, organ meats will taste extremely strange to your developed tongue.

[motif]

Eating organ meats regularly with the exclusion of chicken eggs is extremely difficult in this modern day and age. Similar nutrition may be found by combining vegetables and muscles meats at the same meal, however, then the macronutrient profile of those meals are inconsistent with consuming organ meats( Organ meats are lower in carbs, and higher in protein)

not sure why you say eating organ meat is difficult today. I see liver, hearts in every meat store and they're VERY cheap.
Also haven't heard that e.g. CoQ10 can be found in any vegetables. Also concentration is a problem, how many vegetables or muscle meat can you eat?

Edited by motif, 09 November 2010 - 08:35 AM.

[Marios Kyriazis]

Many non-Western societies use organs in their diet. As a little boy I used to eat mushed sheep's brain spread on bread and butter with a squeeze of lemon.Delicious, and probably effective too!

[yoyo]

Can eat small animals whole, eg sardines.

[openeyes]

For some reason organ meat has always been the best tasting for me, loving liver, heart, kidneys, along with sardines, oysters, and seemingly most anything else with a strong taste/smell ;-) Though less convenient, you might look online for organic/grassfed farms that will mail their product to you, or check out Whole Foods/farmer's markets. A friend gets organic bison marrow and LOVES it raw.

Most days I just have raw eggs, at least 4 per day for the last decade+. Along with lots of steamed veggies, I see them as my prime source of nutrition.

I feel less certain of regular supplementation since so many keeping going in and out of vogue. When I run my diet through Cron-O-Meter it doesn't pick up on anything that I need to add, though I have started taking D3 in the winter.

[kenny001]

can eat small amount, the cooked one is the best.

[AstralStorm]

In fact, some organs contain so much of vitamins, esp. fat soluble, that they can be toxic in overdose.

[motif]

In fact, some organs contain so much of vitamins, esp. fat soluble, that they can be toxic in overdose.

gush...

[e Volution]

In fact, some organs contain so much of vitamins, esp. fat soluble, that they can be toxic in overdose.

Everything is toxic in overdose, water, oxygen, protein... My understanding is this is only a potential risk when consuming the organs of carnivores, which is hardly regular practice. I don't think this is an issue in normal consumption for healthy people, unless you have any evidence to the contrary. Running your diet through nutritional software every once in a while (which everyone should be doing anyway) avoids any potential issues.

Edited by e Volution, 06 December 2010 - 12:42 AM.

[AstralStorm]

I'm mostly concerned about chronic vitamin A, D and B12 toxicity. In fact, evsn great nutritional software like CRONometer doesn't know everything.
In my own experience, just even one portion of liver causes visible symptoms (chapped lips).

[Donnie]

I'm mostly concerned about chronic vitamin A, D and B12 toxicity. In fact, evsn great nutritional software like CRONometer doesn't know everything.
In my own experience, just even one portion of liver causes visible symptoms (chapped lips).

Liver has an insane amount of vitamin A. Just stick to hearts.

Which organ are you referring to that contain vitamin D?

I thought water-soluble vitamins like B12 was hard to overdose?

[AstralStorm]

Liver has an insane amount of vitamin A. Just stick to hearts.

Hearts are just muscle. A nice, low-fat muscle, but still one.
Kidneys and sweetbread on the other hand aren't too useful either as supplements.
Tripe isn't that good either. Neither are lungs.
And all of those are fairly high in cholesterol.
(Of course, the jury is still out whether dietary cholesterol is actually bad, but there's better evidence it is.)
There's a lot of saturated fat in these (unless taken from a fish, maybe), but that might suit your diet...

Which organ are you referring to that contain vitamin D?

Fish organs.

I thought water-soluble vitamins like B12 was hard to overdose?

They are hard, but liver contains 10x or more of the dose for one portion...

[Donnie]

The heart is an organ which just happens to contain muscle. Even if it wasn't, it was still one of the meats that the OP mentioned as a possibility.

You must either slaughter animals yourself or have a much wider selection of organs than my local supermarket. All I get to choose from are the heart and liver of respectively chicken and pork, so I can't claim that I've looked into any of the others that you mention.

Again, I personally wouldn't touch liver. Besides, it tastes horrible. Hearts still contain 3x of the vitamin B12 RDA though and I would be very interested if you have any information you want to share about B12 toxicity.

[motif]

I see there is big misinformation here...RDA, FDA or "whatever" recommendation I flushed down the toilet long time ago. Normally eating food there is no way to overdose anything unless is chemically contaminated. Using even supplements 3,4,5 times of recommended dose I didn't overdose so please get a good book and don't write nonsenses.

p.s.
Water soluble vitamins like B, C you cannot overdose even if you wanted to.

Edited by motif, 08 December 2010 - 11:12 AM.

[AstralStorm]

Oh you can, they get absorbved less well, but still.
For starters, because I'm lazy: http://www.usingvita...2-overdose.html
Numbness is the specific symptom, tachyarrhythmia can happen too.

5x isn't going to cause acute toxicity - in fact, that's hard to notice, the symptoms would be gastrointestinal.
Not sure about chronic overdose - specifically, how much is too much, chronically - apparently nobody cares and the tests for cobalt are too imprecise, but what I could find links it to immune disregulation.

The other B vitamins like B6 and B3 can cause much nastier symptoms and you'd overdose on them before overdosing B12 if eating a lot of liver,
but hypervitaminosis A would affect you first.

Even overdosing vitamin C is possible, results in various gastrointestinal upset and burning urination (due to acidic urine).
This happens starting with 1g in susceptible people, hard to get that much through diet alone.

[Logan]

I'm pretty sure B12 is pretty hard to overdose on to the point of toxicity and health issues, for many people.

Organs have been eaten for a very long time. I don't have any information on evidence of vitamin toxicity from eating organs over the thousands of years humans have, but I am going to guess that there have not been any major issues with eating organs like liver on a regular basis. A co-worker of mine eats chicken liver a few times a week. She is 63, looks like she is 50, and has a very clean bill of health. I believe she has been on a paleo-like diet for years now and have been eating animal organs, including chicken liver, for years now.

I believe vitamin A concerns should be more focuses on the synthetic version, vitamin A palmitate. Sure, too much of any vitamin from any source can possibly cause problems. I just think the concerns over vitamin A are a overhyped and with the right balance of other vitamins and minerals, your body is well equipped to handle fairly large amounts of vitamin A from natural sources.

I wish some of the more knowledgeable members on this topic would chime in. I think you guys are a bit too concerned about getting too much vitamins from animal organs.

[e Volution]

Over analysis to the point of paralysis in this thread... Organs are good for you, they have been part of our ancestral diet for hundreds if not millions of years. Use common sense, check your micro and macro nutrient intake time to time, and supplement this with regular health checkups measuring key bio markers of health. It's that simple!!!

[AstralStorm]

I'm pretty sure B12 is pretty hard to overdose on to the point of toxicity and health issues, for many people.

Organs have been eaten for a very long time. I don't have any information on evidence of vitamin toxicity from eating organs over the thousands of years humans have, but I am going to guess that there have not been any major issues with eating organs like liver on a regular basis. A co-worker of mine eats chicken liver a few times a week. She is 63, looks like she is 50, and has a very clean bill of health. I believe she has been on a paleo-like diet for years now and have been eating animal organs, including chicken liver, for years now.

Few times a week might be fine unless he eats a lot of it at one sitting. Caveat emptor.
Estimated UL is around 3000 ug for adults, one serving of liver provides a bit more than 2x of this. So to avoid chronic toxicity, you should eat at most one portion every three days.
That's not considering the cholesterol content.

I believe vitamin A concerns should be more focuses on the synthetic version, vitamin A palmitate. Sure, too much of any vitamin from any source can possibly cause problems. I just think the concerns over vitamin A are a overhyped and with the right balance of other vitamins and minerals, your body is well equipped to handle fairly large amounts of vitamin A from natural sources.

Which is a combination of cis-retinyl palmitate (oh, same as in most supplements , some have cis-retinyl acetate instead) and really tiny amounts of retinol.

Eating orange/red fruits and vegetables instead is far safer and carotenoids are also anti-oxidant. (but some people eating 50000 IU is funny, I suppose they look yellowish)

I wish some of the more knowledgeable members on this topic would chime in. I think you guys are a bit too concerned about getting too much vitamins from animal organs.

You mean me. I've never said they're completely unhealthy, just that they should be eaten in moderation.

Over analysis to the point of paralysis in this thread... Organs are good for you, they have been part of our ancestral diet for hundreds if not millions of years. Use common sense, check your micro and macro nutrient intake time to time, and supplement this with regular health checkups measuring key bio markers of health. It's that simple!!!

Typical checkups say little about liver function - you need to order liver enzymes specifically, same goes for kidneys (creatinine is cheap though - and a urine test). Unless you happen to own a lab (or have far too much money) and check blood vitamin and mineral levels where it's possible. Here, the idea of standard checkup is blood panel, HbA1c + cholesterol.

The diet check involves putting a good sample of the diet into software - either you're already doing that all the time, or it's going to be real pain.

[motif]

again, there is no toxicity from vitamin C,B and hormone D

[AstralStorm]

Repeating it many times doesn't make it true. Those ULs haven't been made by guesswork.<br /><br />Vitamin D is possible to overdose - it's directly toxic then to kidneys among others - but it's a massive overdose, unlikely to eat that much from natural sources, hard to do that from synthetic sources.<br /><a href='https://secure.wikim...ervitaminosis_D' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>https://secure.wikim...taminosis_D</a> - for starters.<br /><br />This cannot happen with vitamin D produced in the skin, but can happen with dietary vitamin D.<br /><br />Most symptoms are due to hypercalcemia. He didn't tell us how to stop that from happening if you take vitamin D in overdose, so, I smell spinning.<br /><br />The doc is right though. <img src='http://www.imminst.o...fault/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Low vitamin D is common and bad for your health.<br /><br />EDIT umpteen: Something fishy is going on with the forum... Shows me HTML posts for some reason instead of BBcode.

Edited by AstralStorm, 10 December 2010 - 10:01 PM.

[motif]

Repeating it many times doesn't make it true.

exactly, so why you repeat it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

[AstralStorm]

Because I'm actually 1) posting confirmed data 2) with reliable references (go read the refs on that wiki page at least, if you're not lazy, go check pubmed)
instead of some guy that says "vitamin D is great" (true) and "it alone doesn't cause side effects in overdose except by raising calcium, which does". (kind of true, but it doesn't help)

So, stop trolling and let's have this thread die peacefully. The point of this thread was to make a recommendation for or against eating organs instead of supplements, it seems to have outlived its usefulness. The point is that it's hard to dose them properly since they're an unreliable and sometimes too rich source.

We could make a bunch of extra tangents about paleo diet, but it'd serve no purpose. Since all the usefulness is gone from the thread, I'm not going to continue it past this post. Bye. (as much as I like Monty Python)

Edited by AstralStorm, 11 December 2010 - 12:35 AM.

[motif]

Because I'm actually 1) posting confirmed data 2) with reliable references (go read the refs on that wiki page at least, if you're not lazy, go check pubmed)
instead of some guy that says "vitamin D is great" (true) and "it alone doesn't cause side effects in overdose except by raising calcium, which does". (kind of true, but it doesn't help)

So, stop trolling and let's have this thread die peacefully. The point of this thread was to make a recommendation for or against eating organs instead of supplements, it seems to have outlived its usefulness. The point is that it's hard to dose them properly since they're an unreliable and sometimes too rich source.

you got to be kidding, reliable references??? web sites you posted are well known for BS for a long time, meaning you have no idea what you're talking about. Man, you sound like one of these MDs which Big Pharma fooled around their arse. I am not trolling but you, and even worse you bring dangerous misinformation on that site.

[Ace of Zardoz]

Vitamin D influences a wide range of metabolic systems through both genomic and nongenomic pathways that have an impact on the properties of peripheral arteries. Although some vitamin D is essential for cardiovascular health, excess may have detrimental effects, including calcification, inflammation, and impaired elastogenesis in the arterial wall.

http://atvb.ahajourn...nt/full/25/1/39



I would avoid excessive vitamin D levels and keep it within a reasonable range or it may lead to atherosclerosis.It doesnt hurt to get vitamin d levels checked routinely through testing either to ensure you arent exceeding a safe range. This is why I recommend against cod liver oil. Too much vitamin D and it tends to hurt more than it helps in my experience.

[motif]

I would avoid excessive vitamin D levels and keep it within a reasonable range or it may lead to atherosclerosis.It doesnt hurt to get vitamin d levels checked routinely through testing either to ensure you arent exceeding a safe range. This is why I recommend against cod liver oil. Too much vitamin D and it tends to hurt more than it helps in my experience.

gush.

Water intoxication, also known as hyper-hydration, water poisoning, or overhydration, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits by over-consumption of water.

Normal, healthy (physically, nutritionally and mentally) individuals have little reason to worry about accidentally consuming too much water. Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests, in which individuals attempt to consume large amounts of water, or long bouts of intensive exercise during which electrolytes are not properly replenished, yet excessive amounts of fluid are still consumed.[1]

Water can be considered a poison when over-consumed just like any other substance.

http://en.wikipedia....er_intoxication

Edited by motif, 12 December 2010 - 02:37 PM.

[Ace of Zardoz]

I would avoid excessive vitamin D levels and keep it within a reasonable range or it may lead to atherosclerosis.It doesnt hurt to get vitamin d levels checked routinely through testing either to ensure you arent exceeding a safe range. This is why I recommend against cod liver oil. Too much vitamin D and it tends to hurt more than it helps in my experience.

gush.

Water intoxication, also known as hyper-hydration, water poisoning, or overhydration, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits by over-consumption of water.

Normal, healthy (physically, nutritionally and mentally) individuals have little reason to worry about accidentally consuming too much water. Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests, in which individuals attempt to consume large amounts of water, or long bouts of intensive exercise during which electrolytes are not properly replenished, yet excessive amounts of fluid are still consumed.[1]

Water can be considered a poison when over-consumed just like any other substance.

http://en.wikipedia....er_intoxication

Yes everything in excess is bad. Life requires a fine and often delicate balance to exist. Im not sure of the point of posting water intoxication excerpts. Water intoxication occurs when electrolytes are imbalanced in relation to water intake. This is not comparable to taking extra vitamin D and getting hardening of the arteries and etc over time.

[blueinfinity]

For some reason organ meat has always been the best tasting for me, loving liver, heart, kidneys, along with sardines, oysters, and seemingly most anything else with a strong taste/smell ;-) Though less convenient, you might look online for organic/grassfed farms that will mail their product to you, or check out Whole Foods/farmer's markets. A friend gets organic bison marrow and LOVES it raw.

Most days I just have raw eggs, at least 4 per day for the last decade+. Along with lots of steamed veggies, I see them as my prime source of nutrition.

I feel less certain of regular supplementation since so many keeping going in and out of vogue. When I run my diet through Cron-O-Meter it doesn't pick up on anything that I need to add, though I have started taking D3 in the winter.

Whoa, im in california, northern valley area, is it safe to eat raw eggs, what source shuld you be getting them from to ensure safety?

also anyone on the forum know good sources of GOOD milk, nothing pasteurized or homogenized, I dont want to get anyone in trouble so PM me if necessary, been really trying to find a good source.solution

[openeyes]

Whoa, im in california, northern valley area, is it safe to eat raw eggs, what source shuld you be getting them from to ensure safety?

also anyone on the forum know good sources of GOOD milk, nothing pasteurized or homogenized, I dont want to get anyone in trouble so PM me if necessary, been really trying to find a good source.solution

If you're in California you should be able to get raw milk in stores. It's legal. For more info go here: http://www.realmilk..../california/#ca

I eat local free range eggs from whole foods and the local grocery co-op, about $2.50 per dozen. In my 4+ raw egg per day habit of the past ~15 years I've yet to have an issue, and I used to eat cheap eggs you could buy at any grocery store.

[blueinfinity]

Whoa, im in california, northern valley area, is it safe to eat raw eggs, what source shuld you be getting them from to ensure safety?

also anyone on the forum know good sources of GOOD milk, nothing pasteurized or homogenized, I dont want to get anyone in trouble so PM me if necessary, been really trying to find a good source.solution

If you're in California you should be able to get raw milk in stores. It's legal. For more info go here: http://www.realmilk..../california/#ca

I eat local free range eggs from whole foods and the local grocery co-op, about $2.50 per dozen. In my 4+ raw egg per day habit of the past ~15 years I've yet to have an issue, and I used to eat cheap eggs you could buy at any grocery store.

Thanks for the site! a great help,

i know others are concerned with raw eggs but a horror story of the shell was what really thru me off, my dad used to eat cooked and raw eggs when he was younger in korea, but now ive heard stories of bad stuff from overproducing and the bacteria on eggs, do you do something to clean the shell before? how do you crack and consume? etc, id like to know more,

and what is the benefit of raw vs cooked eggs? more whole and intact proteins and source of choline, biotin? or does cooking actually get rid of some things?