Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:26 PM
Posted 29 November 2010 - 12:38 AM
Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.
This can be countered by taking soy isoflavones I think, which have been proven to be a good DHT obstructing supplement.
Dear lord don't get me started on that crap called soy lol... And no creatine does not increase dht levels, no offense but that's false information. If it did to any reasonable level I'm pretty sure I would have heard about that. I don't want to sound like a smart ass but I live and breath bodybuilding and really doubt there's any truth to this dht tale I've read twice in this thread.
I will take the .000001% chance that I'm wrong on this and appologize it that's the case lol...
Not soy, soy isoflavones. There is a difference. The latter has been proven in studies to reduce DHT levels.
Aren't they the ones who will also cause you to grow manboobs?
Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:01 PM
Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:04 PM
About creatine raising dht levels... Creatine is not a hormonal supplement, dht can't come out of nowhere if hormones aren't affected. Here's the deal. Rugby like many other pro sports has steroids involved in it's play. The dht increase must have been from whatever other drugs they had in their system.
Nice try though...
Reprod Biol Endocrinol. 2009; 7: 120. Published online 2009 October 27.
The role and molecular mechanism of D-aspartic acid in the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone in humans and ratsEnza Topo,1 Andrea Soricelli,2 Antimo D'Aniello,1 Salvatore Ronsini,3 and Gemma D'Aniello3
Concerning the effect of D-Asp on the induction of testosterone release, after 12 days of D-Asp treatment, the levels of testosterone in the serum of the participants were significantly increased compared with basal levels. Out of 23 participants, 20 had increased testosterone. From a mean of 4.5 ± 0.6 ng/ml serum at zero time, it rose to 6.4 ± 0.8 ng/ml, a 42% increase
Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:33 AM
About creatine raising dht levels... Creatine is not a hormonal supplement, dht can't come out of nowhere if hormones aren't affected. Here's the deal. Rugby like many other pro sports has steroids involved in it's play. The dht increase must have been from whatever other drugs they had in their system.
Nice try though...
No. Serum testosterone levels did not change in these athletes, meaning that they did not use steroids. (Steroid use either suppress testosterone or if the steroid used is actual testosterone, drastically raises it.) No sportsperson supplements DHT directly, since DHT is useless for anabolism.
And of course non-hormonal supplements can affect hormone levels. For example, zinc is not a hormone but can raise testosterone in some people. So can D-aspartic acid, a non-hormonal aminoacid.Reprod Biol Endocrinol. 2009; 7: 120. Published online 2009 October 27.
The role and molecular mechanism of D-aspartic acid in the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone in humans and ratsEnza Topo,1 Andrea Soricelli,2 Antimo D'Aniello,1 Salvatore Ronsini,3 and Gemma D'Aniello
Concerning the effect of D-Asp on the induction of testosterone release, after 12 days of D-Asp treatment, the levels of testosterone in the serum of the participants were significantly increased compared with basal levels. Out of 23 participants, 20 had increased testosterone. From a mean of 4.5 ± 0.6 ng/ml serum at zero time, it rose to 6.4 ± 0.8 ng/ml, a 42% increase
Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:25 AM
Their test levels did not change because they were probably on them before the study thus having already elevated levels of dht because of them... I'm telling you guys, creatine does not increase dht levels...
Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:39 AM
Their test levels did not change because they were probably on them before the study thus having already elevated levels of dht because of them... I'm telling you guys, creatine does not increase dht levels...
No. If they were doping, it would be immediately and blindingly obvious from their testosterone levels. They were not doping.
On what do you base your claim, though?
Posted 30 November 2010 - 03:16 AM
Their test levels did not change because they were probably on them before the study thus having already elevated levels of dht because of them... I'm telling you guys, creatine does not increase dht levels...
No. If they were doping, it would be immediately and blindingly obvious from their testosterone levels. They were not doping.
On what do you base your claim, though?
I base my claim on the fact that the majority of players in any pro sport are doping. There are many drugs out there that we don't even have tests for yet. Look up Victor Conte and you will get an idea on how big doping in sports is and how they never get caught.
The WWE is supposedly drug tested. If you know anything about wrestlers lifestyles and hectic schedules, you'd put 2 and 2 together... It's obvious these guys are on to look the way they do with the little time they have to dedicate to their bodies. Trust me on this one. I'm close to what you call a bodybuilder and I know what it takes to get that look. Steroids aren't the only part of the solution, but they test clean, yet they're tested...
So you see how tests reveiling a guy being clean, dosent' mean jack shit. Guys who compete at world level bodybuilding shows are supposed to be clean as well. Those who believe that are both dumb and naive. I'm not saying you are, but the athletes will always be ahead of this game whether people like it or not.
Rant/point, made over...
Edited by viveutvivas, 30 November 2010 - 03:25 AM.
Posted 30 November 2010 - 03:33 AM
Their test levels did not change because they were probably on them before the study thus having already elevated levels of dht because of them... I'm telling you guys, creatine does not increase dht levels...
No. If they were doping, it would be immediately and blindingly obvious from their testosterone levels. They were not doping.
On what do you base your claim, though?
I base my claim on the fact that the majority of players in any pro sport are doping. There are many drugs out there that we don't even have tests for yet. Look up Victor Conte and you will get an idea on how big doping in sports is and how they never get caught.
The WWE is supposedly drug tested. If you know anything about wrestlers lifestyles and hectic schedules, you'd put 2 and 2 together... It's obvious these guys are on to look the way they do with the little time they have to dedicate to their bodies. Trust me on this one. I'm close to what you call a bodybuilder and I know what it takes to get that look. Steroids aren't the only part of the solution, but they test clean, yet they're tested...
So you see how tests reveiling a guy being clean, dosent' mean jack shit. Guys who compete at world level bodybuilding shows are supposed to be clean as well. Those who believe that are both dumb and naive. I'm not saying you are, but the athletes will always be ahead of this game whether people like it or not.
Rant/point, made over...
First, this is not pro sport. Second, you can certainly tell if they are taking androgens while they are doing it based on their testosterone levels. Third, It was a randomized placebo-controlled study, so you would have to explain how the randomization magically separated the people who doped from those who didn't dope. Fourth, and this destroys your argument absolutely: it was a crossover study - in other words, they compared the effect on the same athlete of taking or not taking creatine, so each subject received both creatine and placebo. Your explanations are far-fetched, you are not citing any research to back up your claims, and I think you are grasping at straws.
The question is why? What is so threatening to you that creatine might affect DHT? Tons of everyday substances and foods affect hormones. And it is not as if a little extra DHT is that bad for you, so why does it bother you so much?
Posted 30 November 2010 - 03:44 AM
It bothers me because I keep hearing the pussy excuse to not use it because it's said to raise dht levels.
Posted 30 November 2010 - 03:52 AM
It bothers me because I keep hearing the pussy excuse to not use it because it's said to raise dht levels.
DHT is not anabolic, so it is useless for bodybuilding. Therefore anyone who says using creatine is a form of doping because of this study is mistaken.
Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:05 AM
It has been.But if creatine raised dht levels to amounts that would cause hair loss it would have benn anecdotally noticed by now.
Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:21 AM
It has been.But if creatine raised dht levels to amounts that would cause hair loss it would have benn anecdotally noticed by now.
Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:36 AM
Posted 30 November 2010 - 04:16 PM
Was the study on people who were working out vigorously or not? As far as I know anabolism increases DHT levels, I guess that might mean anything that contributes to it such as creatine or even ginger root. It might not mean a direct correlation unless the supplement in question is being used to anabolic effect.
Posted 01 December 2010 - 03:47 AM
Was the study on people who were working out vigorously or not? As far as I know anabolism increases DHT levels, I guess that might mean anything that contributes to it such as creatine or even ginger root. It might not mean a direct correlation unless the supplement in question is being used to anabolic effect.
Yes, it was on Rugby players, but it was a placebo-controlled crossover study. The placebo group worked out just as much as the creatine group, yet they didn't have the increase in DHT.
Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:05 PM
I used to use creatine and never had problems with kindey stones. I've also known a lot of people who used it and no report of kidney stones. Does creatine work? Sure... a little... but it also makes you retain water and look bloated. I'd say pass on the creatine, it's not worth it.Creatine is more for increasing pure strength, I would recommend Beta-Alanine if your doing higher repetitions. Beta-Alanine works insanely well btw. You will be able to easily increase the number of repetitions for a given weigth with it. Also, you will feel less tiredness from training.
I've taken beta-alanine for the past 3 months now. I know alot of people stack BA with creatine. Is there a drop off point though where combining supplements makes no sense anymore? Des taking beta-alanine+creatine really benefit us more than taking one or the other?
They make a good combination because they are very different. Creatine is about increasing ATP and Beta-Alanine is about increasing carnosine. So the combination should be better than taking only one of them.
For recovery you could also try BCAA and citrulline malate.
Anyways, excessive supplementation should not be necessary unless you do real bodybuilding/power-lifting.
The thing that concerns me is potential kidney stones resulting from creatine consumption. What if I can't handle a gallon of water a day? What if I can only down ten 8oz glasses of water a day? Will I be left with a long term kidney ailment? Or is that whole creatne-kidney thing overstated?
Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:36 AM
Check this out:creatine increasing dht? Dear lord, stop the madness!But I do not have a strong opinion either way right now, esp. cause I am somewhat troubled by creatine raising DHT.
I tried creatine a few years ago, and noticed a lot of hair loss. When I quit the creatine, the hair loss stopped. A quick google suggests that I'm not the first person to see this effect.Clin J Sport Med. 2009 Sep;19(5):399-404.
Three weeks of creatine monohydrate supplementation affects dihydrotestosterone to testosterone ratio in college-aged rugby players.
van der Merwe J, Brooks NE, Myburgh KH.
Department of Physiological Sciences, Stellenbosch University, Stellenbosch, South Africa.
Comment in:
* Clin J Sport Med. 2010 May;20(3):220; author reply 220-2.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: This study investigated resting concentrations of selected androgens after 3 weeks of creatine supplementation in male rugby players. It was hypothesized that the ratio of dihydrotestosterone (DHT, a biologically more active androgen) to testosterone (T) would change with creatine supplementation.
DESIGN: Double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study with a 6-week washout period.
SETTING: Rugby Institute in South Africa.
PARTICIPANTS: College-aged rugby players (n = 20) volunteered for the study, which took place during the competitive season.
INTERVENTIONS: Subjects loaded with creatine (25 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose) or placebo (50 g/day glucose) for 7 days followed by 14 days of maintenance (5 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose or 30 g/day glucose placebo).
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum T and DHT were measured and ratio calculated at baseline and after 7 days and 21 days of creatine supplementation (or placebo). Body composition measurements were taken at each time point.
RESULTS: After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001). The ratio of DHT:T also increased by 36% after 7 days creatine supplementation and remained elevated by 22% after the maintenance dose (P < 0.01).
CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation may, in part, act through an increased rate of conversion of T to DHT. Further investigation is warranted as a result of the high frequency of individuals using creatine supplementation and the long-term safety of alterations in circulating androgen composition. STATEMENT OF
CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Although creatine is a widely used ergogenic aid, the mechanisms of action are incompletely understood, particularly in relation to dihydrotestosterone, and therefore the long-term clinical safety cannot be guaranteed.
PMID: 19741313
Edited by MorganM, 19 February 2011 - 05:38 AM.
Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:18 PM
Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:30 AM
Weird though about dht because there is alot of anecdotal evidence that the stuff thrashes libido into S***
Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:03 AM
Creatine's only worth it if your involved in sports that make you use short bursts of intense activity, a bodybuilder or if you're a vegan.
Edited by Hebbeh, 30 December 2011 - 04:32 AM.
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