17 replies to this topic

[leha]

I went to get some choline supplements because my CRON indicated I was low on choline, but all they had was choline and inositol together, and the gal at the store was telling me how great inositol is, and how you really want to take them together, and blah blah. Anyway, I got those and started taking them, and right away, started getting hangover-like headaches--and especially if I tried to drink wine. At first I thought it was the wine (I don't drink often, so it was plausible), so I started turning down alcohol, but the headaches kept coming.

I was taking fish oil and NAC, as well, so knocked off everything at once and the headaches subsided over a few days. I've been trying to figure out what it was, and the only thing I can think of is the inositol, as choline is supposed to actually help headaches, and unless my fish oil is loaded with mercury or something, it wouldn't make sense that it was coming from that.

I reintroduced the NAC and it seems to be okay. Next will be the fish oil, and then I'll try to find some choline with no inositol, but just was wondering if anyone else had ever had this experience?

Thanks,
Leha

[rwac]

I've had the same experience with inositol, and I don't know why this happens.
Incidentally, I also seem to need a fair bit of choline, more than the RDA.

[leha]

Thanks, rwac--it's nice to know I'm not the only one.

How do you tell if you're getting enough choline besides just going by the RDA?

[rwac]

Things like elevated liver enzymes (ALT), hard to lose visceral fat, low tolerance to alcohol are clues.

Also, there's an polymorphism (rs7946) in the PEMT gene which has a very high prevalence in people of european ethnic origin ( ~75% !)
This causes reduced choline synthesis, and having a pair of them (homozygous) reduces synthesis even more.

I just got a 23andme test (there's a great sale on), and this is one of the things I want to confirm.

Personally, I feel much better taking larger amounts of choline.

https://www.23andme.com

Edited by rwac, 06 December 2010 - 08:20 PM.

[leha]

Wow, the DNA test sounds like a kick. Maybe I'll put it on my wish list.

Meanwhile, I already know I'm not getting enough choline because I'm not even getting my RDA, so I will definitely be taking more--soon as I can get it straight, no chaser.

Thanks for all the info.

[rwac]

I found that I continued to have symptoms of choline deficiency even when I was getting the RDA of choline, that's how I know I need more.

Good luck!

[leha]

Thanks!

[Agee]

For me, too many eggs = Migraine and stiff neck, so it might be the Choline.

[leha]

Interesting. I can't recall ever having gotten a headache from too many eggs, but then, I don't tend to eat a lot of eggs, which is why my choline is low!

[Dorian Grey]

I wish I had my source for you, but I don't... I have read phosphatidylcholine (lecithin) supplies choline with much more stable blood levels than choline bitartrate, and thus is a preferable source.

Perhaps lecithin, with less of a tendency to "spike" blood levels might give you choline without the headache too!

The fringe benefits lecithin offers (lower triglycerides, mitochondrial/cell membrane support) might also be a + for lecithin.

I've been taking polyunsaturated lecithin (PPC) AKA polyenylphosphatidylcholine, for 3 years now, and I swear it's been a fountain of youth for me. Google: Essential Phospholipids as a Membrane Therapeutic from K. J. Gundermann MD/PhD for more info on PPC.

If you don't go with PPC, a "triple strength" lecithin will provide the most choline.

Cheers!

[Dorian Grey]

Here we go... http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/pubmed/69151

Looks like it was choline chloride and not bitartrate, and also looks like lecithin may spike levels too!

Lancet. 1977 Jul 9;2(8028):68-9.
Lecithin consumption raises serum-free-choline levels.
Wurtman RJ, Hirsch MJ, Growdon JH.

Abstract
Consumption of choline by rats sequentially increases serum-choline, brain-choline, and brain-acetylcholine concentrations. In man consumption of choline increases in levels in the serum and cerebrospinal fluid; its administration is an effective way of treating tardive dyskinesia. We found that oral lecithin is considerably more effective in raising human serum-choline levels than an equivalent quantity of choline chloride. 30 minutes after ingestion of choline chloride (2-3 g free base), serum-choline levels rose by 86% and returned to normal values within 4 hours; 1 hour after lecithin ingestion, these levels rose by 265% and remained significantly raised for 12 hours. Lecithin may therefore be the method of choice for accelerating acetylcholine synthesis by increasing the availability of choline, its precursor in the blood.

PMID: 69151 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[leha]

Awesome--thank you so much, Syn. I knew there was a reason I put off trying to buy choline again until after the New Year.

My mom used to give us lecithin when we were kids. I'm not sure she knew about this, but she must have thought there was something good about it. I'm sure she'll be thrilled when I tell her I'm taking it again.

I also was just reading an article that said acetylcholine helps promote lucid dreaming. I've only ever had one truly lucid dream (in which I made things happen in an "awake while dreaming" state), but I've had tons of dream moments in which I did know I was dreaming, but simply didn't question it any further. Okay, I'm rambling.

Back on topic, at this point I'm pretty sure it was the inositol that was giving me the headache, especially in the light of now making the connection between lecithin (no headaches from lecithin that I know of...) and choline.

I will definitely also read the phospholipid article. Sounds interesting... Thanks again!

Edited by leha, 02 January 2011 - 05:50 AM.

[dachshund]

I've not used inositol, however, I just ordered some IP-6 from Swanson, so I'll be curious to see if I have any headache issues. I am sensitive to some supplements triggering visual aura - migraine headache combinations. I used to get aura migraine headaches about once a month. About 5 years ago I began supplementing with a ALCAR/lipoic Acid combination based on work being done by Prof. Bruce Ames - UC Berkeley. Interestingly, after starting this regimen, these migraine headaches virtually went away (less than one per year). This has allowed me to discover some foods and a few supplements that for me trigger migraines. Chocolate is one culprit for me, although I can eat a little bit a lot triggers a migraine. I believe is the tyrosine that is metabolically converted to tyramine that triggers chocolate headaches for me. Another interesting observation is that green tea triggers migraines for me after 2 or 3 cups (1 tea bag used per cup). However, I can drink 40 - 50 % EGCG green tea powder extract (500 mg) dissolved in hot water with no headaches at all.

Regarding supplements, here are three that I know with certainty that trigger visual aura/migraine headaches for me: n-acetylcysteine (NAC), Pyridoxine (B6), para-aminobenzoic acid (PABA).

[leha]

I periodically take both NAC and B6, but never PABA. That's weird about the migraine triggers. I had cluster headaches for 20 years and found out by accident after they stopped that they were related to various toxin exposures--particularly nicotine and macrolide antibiotics (the latter of which are routinely fed to conventionally-raised dairy cows, as well as various animals raised for meat).

synesthesia: Interestingly, after looking for more current information on the benefits of lecithin over choline chloride, and also Googling the article you mentioned, I found this rather well-researched review that covers, among other things, the claims for soy products over choline chloride:

Soy Lecithin: From Sludge to Profit

[Dorian Grey]

I periodically take both NAC and B6, but never PABA. That's weird about the migraine triggers. I had cluster headaches for 20 years and found out by accident after they stopped that they were related to various toxin exposures--particularly nicotine and macrolide antibiotics (the latter of which are routinely fed to conventionally-raised dairy cows, as well as various animals raised for meat).

synesthesia: Interestingly, after looking for more current information on the benefits of lecithin over choline chloride, and also Googling the article you mentioned, I found this rather well-researched review that covers, among other things, the claims for soy products over choline chloride:

Soy Lecithin: From Sludge to Profit

I have seen the Soy/Sludge stories too, many of them very negative... They seem to be few and far between the many who believe in phospholipids tho. Leather is a byproduct of the beef industry, but that doesn't mean leather is bad.

Perhaps the worst rap soy gets is regarding phytoestrogens. Life Extension had a good article this summer rebutting the dangers. I was getting an unpleasant taste from some of the lecithin I was taking (in large amounts), that's why I'm on PPC now. Much more refined, and you only need one or perhaps two per day.

[leha]

There wasn't much about it in PubMed that I could find that wasn't written over ten years ago. I wonder why science would give up on something so promising...

[Dorian Grey]

There wasn't much about it in PubMed that I could find that wasn't written over ten years ago. I wonder why science would give up on something so promising...

I believe you can't patent a natural product so, no $$$ for research from drug companies, and now days, drug companies control most of the research dollars. Lecithin has also fallen out of fashion... It's so 70s! It seems a lot of people "want a new drug" as Huey Lewis used to say.

Also, before they had highly refined products, you had to take quite a bit of it (lecithin) to have a beneficial effect; perhaps a dozen gelcaps per day. I know the lecithin freaks of yesteryear all used to say "granular lecithin" was the only way to go as the gelcaps were too weak.

[Destiny's Equation]

I ran into this a bit late it seems.

Were you taking stable fish oil?