11 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

Most are young (not old people just about to die). A large percentage of
ALCOR's suspension members are computer programmers. (The sci.nanotech USENET
newsgroup is one of the best targeted audiences for cryonics that I know of.)
Also, according to a straw poll at a recent conference, a large percentage call
themselves Libertarians. This surprised me; I didn't even know what the word
"Libertarian" meant. ** I have also noticed that people who are signed up with
ALCOR tend to be very "cerebral" sort of people; they think a lot, think highly
of their thinking, and highly value their minds.

** Now I have a rationale for the Libertarian connection. You have surely
heard that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes. Cryonicists
seek to avoid death and Libertarians seek to avoid taxes; cryonics and
Libertarianism thus make a natural, synergistic pair.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 401
From att!fernwood.mpk.ca.us!alc!alc.com!lovejoy Mon Aug 19 14:24:15 PDT 1991
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 14:24:15 PDT
From: lovejoy@alc.com
To: kqb@whscad1.att.com

Cryonicists tend to be an intelligent lot perceptive enough to avoid getting
mired in these political battles by not forcing personal decisions into the
collective arena in the first place.

[advancedatheist]

I get the impression from my nearly 14 years in cryonics that Jews, gays and religious nonbelievers are over-represented. Maybe a majority of women in cryonics seem to be child-free by choice, and many of them don't seem to have signed up on their own initiative, but rather to please the cryonicist men in their lives. A few traditional families are signed up, notably the Ettingers and the Lemlers, but in general a commitment to cryonics doesn't seem all that generationally transmissible.
People with socially unconventional sexualities also seem over-represented, for example, men who regularly visit prostitutes, collect pornography, practice sadomasochism or engage in swinging.

[DJS]

People with socially unconventional sexualities also seem over-represented, for example, men who regularly visit prostitutes, collect pornography, practice sadomasochism or engage in swinging.

WhWhat?? Please tell us Mark, how did you become privy to this information? [huh] [lol]

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 3252
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 23:48:37 EDT
Subject: SCI. CRYONICS Fox, motivation

Brent Fox has asked for my comments on whether most people in cryonics are
"self-actualizing" or whether they are "ordinary, everyday people.".

I doubt that my comments on this topic--or anybody's, for that matter--will
have much practical value, but I'll give my personal impressions briefly.

Many people in cryonics--most in the Cryonics Institute whom I have met--seem
rather ordinary by most criteria, although usually better educated and more
intelligent than average.

Until recently, I also had the impression that many were unsuccessful in life
BY THEIR OWN STANDARDS--that is, had failed to achieve as much as they
thought they could or ought. Recently, however, a few big-rich people seem to
have joined, which may or may not tend to discount this notion.

Certainly they tend to be independent or at least minority thinkers,
relatively many being Libertarians. Certainly they must be willing to
question authority. Certainly--almost by definition--they are not comfortable
in the intellectual/cultural mainstream, since this includes submission to
mortality. If "ordinary" means average, by definition
cryonicists/immortalists are not ordinary, since we form a tiny minority.

But I doubt very much that any psychological analysis will provide any new
strategies in advancing immortalism. At any rate, none of the many
psychologists in cryonics has been much help in improving strategy so far,
although Jack Erfurt had some wrinkles that may help a little.

We have many types of arrows in our quiver--simple survival, greed,
fellowship, idealism, amibtion, rebellion, lovingkindness, adventure,
curiosity, on and on. We just have to keep firing them all.

Robert Ettinger
Cryonics Institute
Immortalist Society

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4385
Date: 11 May 95 10:52:58 EDT
From: "Kent, Saul" <71043.1120@compuserve.com>
Subject: We're Different

Bob Ettinger says he was recently asked what there was in his
background to explain why he, rather than someone else, started the
cryonics movement. His answer:
"Beats me. As far as I know, my background and psychology or mind-
sets are far from unique..."
I agree with Bob that his background is far from unique, but I
disagree with him about his psychology.
The difference in Bob, and Ev Cooper, who started the first
cryonics organization (The Life Extension Society) before the word
cryonics had been coined, was that *their* response to the realization
that they were dying (that's the appropriate word for "aging") was to
think about what they could do about it, and--more importantly--to do it.
Everyone else had thought about the fact that they were dying (for at
least a few seconds, anyway), but only Bob (and Ev) *did* something about
it. (Ev, unfortunately, only continued to do something about it for a few
years).
I contend that the difference in Bob's psychology was (and is) a
*major* difference, not a minor one. In fact, I believe it is the differ-
ence that makes all the difference in the world!
When I first learned about Bob's idea in 1964, my *immediate*
response was acceptance, enthusiasm, and a desire to participate. At
first, I didn't think I was especially different from all my friends,
*none* of whom felt as I did about the idea. As time went by, however, I
realized that I was (and am) *very* different from my friends (of those
days) and this difference has become more and more apparent with the
passage of time.
As far as recruitment goes, I believe that, as a result of the
publicity cryonics has had over the years, there are many (my estimate is
hundreds of thousands) people who think cryonics is a good idea, but have
yet to commit themselves for one reason or another. I think we should
focus our attention on finding those people and in dealing with the
reasons they haven't yet signed up.
I think the number one reason people haven't signed up yet is the
deficiencies in today's cryonics services. My major effort in cryonics is
thus currently aimed at helping to improve the quality of cryonics ser-
vices through the support of low temperature research.

---Saul Kent

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4414
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 17:13:15 -0400
Subject: recruitment

Saul Kent says we (cryonicists) are different in psychology and that we
should try to identify those who are interested but haven't done anything
about it.

Of course we are different--but not, as far as I can see, in any visible and
useful way. Who set it in motion originally, or tried to do so? I wrote a
book (after previous fitful efforts over many years), Evan Cooper wrote a
somewhat similar book, and Lawrence Jensen, an art professor (yes, a PAINTER)
at Castleton State college in Vermont, was planning to do so (and maybe
others of whom we haven't heard). Those who read my book and instantly
responded included Saul, Curtis Henderson, Mike Darwin (a child of 12 at the
time), Paul Segall, Harry Waitz, Art Quaife, Greg Fahy, my brother Alan, my
son David (who explained it on TV at age 15), Jerry Leaf (I think), Jerry
White (I think), and some others to whom I apologize for omission of names.
But what do they have in common--not counting my relatives?

The writers or would-be writers of books--myself, EV Cooper, and Larry
Jensen--were very different people, with almost nothing in common, as far as
I can see, or nothing that was not also shared by enormous numbers of people.
The same goes for the instant responders. The conclusion, once more, is that
the psychological and practical pivots are so subtle, or so dependent on
elements of chance, that identifying them is hopeless.

Eugen Leitl says uploaders should be prime candidates for cryonics. Again,
while the stat istics may show a slight favorable bias, it isn't enough to be
practically meaningful. It's a little bit like sayng that rich people should
be prime candidates, because "logically" they can easily spare the money, so
what's to lose? But it's not the logical that rules--it's the psychological,
and psychology is not an exact science (or even a "fuzzy" science).

Locate the interested people? We have drawers full of names of people who
have sent queries over the years, but on our sporadic attempts to follow them
up we get mostly no response or notice that they have moved to an unknown
address. (Yes, we should have been and should be more systematic about this.)

My general impression, once more, is that only two things do much good in
cryonics advertising or public relations: (1) Get as much free publicity as
you can, provided it is dignified, and (2) Use as much personal contact and
influence as practicable. (The average cost per successful recruitment is
very high, and when you have someone definitely interested a lot of
additional expense and effort may be justified.)

Finally, as Saul says, support for research is extremely important both
directly, for improving the patients' chances, and indirectly in many ways
including its effect on our credibility. And Saul (with Bill Faloon) has done
much more than most in this area, as well as having been an important
contributor to the growth of Alcor. But again, this is nothing new.

What is the point of all this rumination? Perhaps recrutiment should focus on
two strategies: (1) Use the shotgun and free publicity; (2) Keep a hard
squeeze on those already in the vise. Mae occasionally gives money to the
Republicans, and every donation is instantly followed by a flood of requests
for more and larger donations. Of course, that doesn't work with her; the
cost of the request mailings probably exceeds her total donations. But one
supposes their technique must work, on average, since they keep doing it.

Robert Ettinger
Cryonics Institute
Immortalist Society

[advancedatheist]

People with socially unconventional sexualities also seem over-represented, for example, men who regularly visit prostitutes, collect pornography, practice sadomasochism or engage in swinging.

WhWhat?? Please tell us Mark, how did you become privy to this information? [huh] [lol]

If you hang around certain prominent men in cryonics and gain their confidence, eventually they'll tell you these things. Some of what I know is publicly available, for example, that Alcor's Vice President, Michael Riskin, has in his other professional capacity of Ph.D. sex therapist published a how-to video on "swinging," apparently based in part on his own lifestyle.

[randolfe]

I mentioned my plans to attempt making arrangements for cryonic suspension at a weekly discussion group for gay men over forty as only one aspect of my search for a lawyer to help me write my will.

The group's leader immediately jumped on the subject of cryonics and for nearly two hours the discussion revolved around mainly around cryonics and also computers.

I was surprised at how receptive many were to the idea. One member had had his dog's blood frozen in hopes his favorite pet could one day be cloned. I Believe a majority of those in the group are Jewish. Many of them are teachers and academics. All are either gay or bisexual.

"Differences in social settings" seemed to be the major concern of many. They discussed a movie in which someone from the past goes into the future, falls in love with this woman and then returns with her to the past.

First, they talked about how nonsensical the movie was insofar as the man who traveled into the future so easily adapted to lights, telephones, etc. that would not have existed in his day. They also thought the woman would "not put up with the discomforts of life in his day for one week if such a journey back into time was possible."

Some wondered if waking up in the year 3000 might prove to be waking up into a terrible violent world. Many agreed that life had become more violent with the passing of each decade during the past fifty years.

Others worried about waking up in a world where they would have no friends or relatives and no familiar social environment.

When someone suggested that only those getting older and facing death would probably be interested in cryonics, I told them of Mike Darwin's story about being mesmerized by the news of mr. Bedford's freezing when he was only a twelve year old doing experiments in the freezing of animals and competing in an Indiana State Science Fair.

One member, a man who was caring for his lover who was in the terminal stages of cancer and who you might think would be the most interested in cryonics did not contribute much to the conversation. He was bothered by the idea that he believed in life after death but his lover did not.

I was impressed at how "open" and "even intrigued" these people were by the idea. I think the missing ingredient in motivating people to embrace cryonics is making the idea of being revived and living on both "real" and "inviting".

Certainly, "making the transition" by being put into a vat of liquid nitrogen upside down and stored there for a long time is not a very attractive beginning.

[John Schloendorn]

Randolfe, that sounds very promising. Do you have experiences with homosexuals and other forms of immortalism that might have an even greater need for active supporters than cryonics?

[Matt]

I only become interested in cryonics after high school. I started to read a lot books on Nanotechnology and Biotechnology, I found out about websites and books from Ray Kurzweils website www.kurzweilai.net from there I got a lot of information, I was so facinated by technology.

Never before in my life did I enjoy science so much. Obviously in school they teach you the basics of science in bioligy, physics, chemistry and computers.

We did the very basic practical stuff, but we never discussed the possible * future * of science. We never looked beyond the present. I would of got a lot interested in science at a much earlier stage If say.... A futurist like ray kurzweil or someone came in and gave a talk. If people were taught the capabilities that these new technologies could create, then I believe more people would be much more interested in taking part to advance science further. When they showed that this chemical does something to that chemical, I think... Well how is that going to affect * MY LIFE * in any way what so ever. so what if the dye turned blue, or it disolved..

Anyway, From learning about technology by listening to audio videos and reading I come to the conclusion that cryonics did seem a very idea and from what I learned, It looked like it could work sometime this century with these new advanced technologies.

When I talk to friends and teachers at college or family.. about cryonics they dont seem to take the idea of it very well.

First they dont understand the science behind it. A lot dont understand the impact of Nanotechnology, Biotechnology and Computing could have on life. After I am done explaining to them in breif what these technologies could offer, they seem to be still skeptical, but more educated and more open to the idea If I can explain to them in a way that makes sense.

People are not educated enough to understand why cronyics might be feasable and work.

I was brought into learning about technology by Futurists and experts in different fields of technology (there are so many to name) writing books, having their lectures put on the net and audio files.

Im only 20 years old. Im interested in Cryonics because im somewhat educated in the two technologies I talked about. If I didnt have any information or educatation on them two, Id probably dismiss it as, BS.

So I believe it is a mixture of these:

Lack of Information or old information on big information Source called ( TV, Cable, Sky ) And most of those programs are very skeptical about technologies, Some programs say that it will probably take thousands or millions of years to extend life span or use cryonics and make it work... So what person would care anyway if its millions of years away?

Most scientists that make breakthroughs or people that review them are very conservative when they make estimates of when new advances in science will benifit us. A lot say, oh this stem cell therapy might work in, 50 - 100 years... ( yea right ! )

Young people that are Alive now need to be educated in not just basic science but the possibilities of Future technologies and how it may affect the world. Futurists, Science etc. Must target the young and educate, open up some doors to them and make their IMAGINATION go crazy

[randolfe]

Whoa182, you have touched on the thing most needed to popularize all those things necessary to hasten the arrival of our improved technological future: VISION AND INSPIRATION!

If we could get more science fiction writers to paint a more utopian future instead of a bleak one where mad scientists have done or threaten great harm, we would be taking a great step forward.

This positive spin occurs after science has taken the first step in real life. For instance, today we have movies painting the exploration of space as a great adventure and a good thing.

Yet, I vividly remember a movie called "Rocketship XM" back in the 1940s. In that movie, they manage to go to another planet. It is a great adventure. However, as they approach Earth, their fuel has run out and the two main characters, a romantically involved man and woman embrace each other as they face their end. The end is when someone announces " streak of light" has been seen in some distant sky which was the spaceship burning up upon re-entering Earth's atmosphere.

The beginnings of "a good spin" on cryonics can be seen in the open manner "time travel" is treated in films. If we made such "time travel" a little less mystical by having cryonics serve as the "time capsule" we would be making headway.

It is encouraging that someone your age is interested in cryonics. I became interested back in 1964 when I was twenty-six years old. I explored the subject for a while. No one had been frozen at that time. I finally decided that it would be hugely expensive and virtually impossible to keep yourself in liquid nitrogen for decades. So, I gave up the dream.

However, we now have institutions like Alcor and the Cryonics Institute which are organizational structures capable of continuing for a long time. We have also improved the economics by using dewars and the economy of scale. We have even improved our freezing capacities so that virtually no damage is done during suspension.

Cryonics today is much more realistic and possible than it was in 1964. That is why I returned to the movement. Great hurdles remain to be overcome. However, the possibilities for successful suspension and revival get better and better every day.