8 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 3937
From: Trygve Bauge <trygveb@powertech.no>
Subject: Re: Life extension & liberty go hand in hand!.
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 02:18:27 +0100 (GMT+0100)

My goal is to be alive as far into the future as possible.
To extend life we have to overcome the main causes of death.
This takes a lot of breakthroughs in science, technology and production.
Historically and logically entrepreneurial liberty
including respect for individual autonomy, freedom of travel and trade,
freedom of contract, and respect for private property,
is the legal system that best enables individuals to maximize values.
Individual life extension and entreprenenurial liberty go hand in hand.
The only way to reach high goals is to make one's path obey one's goal.
I practice entrepreneurial liberty because without it I can't greatly
extend my life and the life of those I care about.
As a result I refuse to ask for passports and visas.
Let me mention that I have been fighting the battle in te open
in court, like other honest civil rights battles.
I had been in litigation with the INS for 8 years and the case
was next to go to the US supreme court when the local INS director
violated my appeal rights and ordered me deported before my right
to take the case to the supreme court had run out. As a result
my apeal rights were violated, and I was prevented in taking the case to the
supreme court. The INS by the way is know for systematically violating
all due procees rights that we usually take for granted.
There is no trial by jury. And joseph is wrong when he claims
that I was a felon. I was never charged with any crime by the INS
as a matter of fact they don't treat it as a crime to be visaless
because if they did they would have to respect our due process rights
guaranteed by the US constitution. Instead they just round us up
and put us in concentration camps, Some people have been for years in these
without due process. If you want more information about
my civil rights battle please visit my WWW pages:
http://www.powertech.no/~trygveb/
Protectionism is a threat to life extension.
It is a sobering thought that very few of us would have been around
if the native Americans had had a better border patrol!
The pilgrims were visaless, and so am I, and for many of the same
reasons.
The United States was created by foreigners for foreigners!
However the jeffersonian revolution has since been replaced by a
reactionary protectionist counter revolution.
And the United States is now a protectionistic tribal society,
just like Norway.
The bottom line is: If we are to greatly extend our individual lives
we can not afford to practice protectionism!
This I realized many years ago, and it is with that in mind
that I have set out to combat protectionism politically.
Our life extension depends upon that we respect universal unalienable
rights like the right to individual autonomy, the right to entrepreneurial
liberty and the right to full control of such property as one has aquired by
rights respecting means.

> What crap is this? First of all, it has nothing to do with cryonics
> and definately does not belong on the cryonics mailing list,
I am building a cryonic facility in Nederland Colorado,
and the INS by violating my appeal rights has temporary
prevented me from completing that facility,
The success of cryonics is dependent upon that we protect
universal unalienable rights. A government that does not respect the
rights of the living is not likely to protect the dead either.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 3973
From: Trygve Bauge <trygveb@powertech.no>
Subject: Reply to Platt
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 01:55:34 +0100 (GMT+0100)

> In Message #3964 Charles Platt <cp@panix.com> says:
> Subject: Bauge case
>
> I am not sure why Trygve Bauge keeps posting the details of his case here;
> surely he doesn't expect us all to rise up in wrath against small-town
> bureaucrats in Colorado?
Actually yes, I do. Because if not stopped the attacks on cryonics
will spread. Witness France, British columbia and other places
where the authorities are outlawing cryonics. Besides many of you know
me and several of you have been very supportive.

> I sympathize with his situation, because it is not a happy one. But it
> does seem to me that there is a very simple lesson here: if you start your
> own little cryotorium without warning the neighbors or negotiating with
> local officials, you're liable to run into trouble.
Before we even bought the land I spoke to the planning commission
and made clear my plans to build a house and a cryonic facility
up on that hill. They were not trilled, but at the end of the meeting
Someone refered me to the local zoning law, and pointed out to me
that there was nothing there against what I was planning, I got hold
of a copy and I complied with it. and the town did not attack me
or try to stop me while I was there. It was only when i got deported
that the town trustees jumped on the opportunity to shut us down.
All the neighbors know about it because I went to great length to
negotiate a large enough road easement and build a large enough
driveway so that we could have 18 wheel liquid Nitrogen trucks
drive the whole way up to the facility.
As you know every step I took was documented in the Immortalist,
and I know of at least one local radio station producer that subscribe.
When we received Al campbell I sent out 100 press releases about
it to the colorado press, but since the first part of the press package
focused on my fight with the INS it took actually several months before
any journalist discovered the cryonic part.
In the mean time I got deported, and the town trustees jumped on the
opportunity to try to shut us down, and the story broke.
I contacted lots of press contacts and they were instrumental
in stopping the town trustees, The mayor has now resigned and is not
running for reelection. In all 3 of the trustees have resigned too.
The law was on our side, but the situation was too much for my mother
she had a mental break down and is now recovering in a Norwegian
mental hospital. We have exellent support from the press and population
in Nederland and Boulder. With some more support from the cryonic movement
we could
actually win. However the battle has been expensive, when they deported me
they took away my computer job and other income,
and when the town trustees scared off
my client the cryonic venture that had been paying for itself while I
did the work, now started costing us 350 dollars a month to operate with
hired help. My mother was forced out of the house and had to rent
a place elsewhere. This and expenses brought about by her
illness caused that we could not afford to keep the attorney we had
hired. My mother already mentally ill, represented herself in court
and lost. The court refused to appoint an attorney to represent her
and has so far also refused to let me represent her.
> Does anyone really
> think it makes good sense to keep people who are legally dead on your
> property, frozen in boxes, without expecting any problems from the public
> health department (at the very least)?
The Boulder county health department came out on our side!
No problem there as long as he is frozen. And the town of Nederland
is under the jurisdiction of the Boulder county health department.
My grand father is in a dry ice box, in a metal shed,
This was only intended as a one month interim solution
when I moved my grand father from Trans Time and to Nederland Colorado
David tate was to supply a two person electrical freezer,
going down to -95 degrees celcius. He ordered it, received it
and found out that his friend Al was 1 inch wider than he had
originally thought. the elbows and feet where sticking out.
So he had to return the electrical freezer. And suddenly we
had two people on dry ice in a temporary metal shed
instead of two people in an electrical frezer in a sturdy wood shed.
The plan had been to complete the main building which has a two
story area fit for two 4 person metal dewars, and instal one
dewar last summer. The sudden deportation that violated my
appeals rights, and the town trustees sudden illegal attempt
at going after my weak old mother as soon as I was out of the
picture, prevented the upgrading of the facility to steel dewars
in the nice fire, storm and earthquake proof concrete building
that some of you might remember having seen in the immortalist.
The long run plans already drawn up called for a large underground
facility with capacity 5 dewars and expandable.
The house was laid out on the property so to fit this expansion.
The attempt was to create a state of the art professional
cryonic facility, but without respect for freedom of contract
and without respect for private property, such value creation
has become much harder.

>
> There is a more serious aspect to this situation: "Do it yourself"
> cryonics tends to undermine the efforts of larger organizations to pursue


> cryonics in a more legally legitimate and social acceptable way.
This was never intended as a do it yourself operation, it didn't
violate any law, and the town had to ban cryonics post defacto
As a matter of fact they had no legal standing to apply the ban
retroactively and we are grand fathered in. However it doesn't help
to be right when one lacks the liberty and money, or as in my mother's
case: the wherewithall to read the legal papers and defend our rights
systematically and rationally in court. The local authorities took
advantage of her weakness.
Nederland has about 1500 people and a local journalist polled 100 of them.
The local poll showed that 70 percent of the people in nederland
were on our side. What I did was not socially unacceptable!

> This
> ultimately reduces our chances, as cryonicists, to be taken seriously and
> to survive in the long term.
Not defending what I did, certainly would reduce our chances,

> I also think it is rather unrealistic to expect fair and decent treatment
> from local officials when one has flouted their authority in quite a
> dramatic way.
The trustees are up for election in May, If you assist me now,
we could very likely end up with a set of trustees that would want
to let the community benefit from what my cryonic facility and
life extension center plans has to offer.

>I'm sure there have been procedural errors and injustices in
> the way that they have dealt with Trygve, but I also feel this should have
> been expected, under the circumstances. The State is not kind to those who
> defy it, and no amount of complaining by Trygve is liable to change this
> situation.
The problem is not with the state nor with the feds nor with the county
nor with the population nor with the press, nor with most of the
immediate neighbors. One neighbor has complained, and 6 of the existing
town trustess have a vested interest in saving face from their first
hysterical overreaction..
Maybe it should be expected, the way one should expect to be hit by
lightening on a clear day.
I am not just complaining about the situation, I am doing something
to rectify it, and I am calling upon you to assist.
Thanks, and long life,
and feel free to come and visit my WWW pages while I am in exile.
Trygve

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4000
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 95 20:00:03
From: Cryonics@longevb.demon.co.uk (John de Rivaz)
Subject: Re: CRYONICS: Bauge Case shows American Lawyers to be Gangsters

In article: <199503061000.CAA08812@infinity.c2.org>
owner-cryonet@cryonet.org writes:
> It is clear that even a mediocre attorney would have
> been able to win the case for us, however my mother couldn't
^^^^^^^^
> afford an attorney, the court failed to appoint one, and insisted
^^^^^^
> on putting my mother on trial in spite of she being certified
> mentally incompetent. So much for justice in the town of Nederland.
>

If what Trygve Bauge writes is true, it once again shows what the American
legal profession are just a bunch of gangsters in it for the money. If the
legal profession is to serve the public it really must charge prices that
the averge person can afford. If it *really* costs more to provide the
service than the average person can afford, then the American people must
use every democratic means possible to get the law simplified until such
time as representation can be arranged at prices average people can afford.

Your first revolution was about representation.

It is time you had another.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4035
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 12:17:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Platt <cp@panix.com>
Subject: Naivety

Perry Metzger accuses Trygve Bauge of being "hopelessly naive." But in my
experience, almost all cryonicists are naive--thinking they will be able
to cheat death and will be allowed to do so.

I have met only a handful of cryonicists who are, in any real sense,
"worldly." (I do not include myself among them, incidentally.) Moreover,
in many cases the naivety is allied with great stubbornness (natural
enough--you have to be stubborn to reject the preconceptions which
everyone else takes for granted). Naivety and stubbornness can achieve
quite a lot, if you're foolish enough to reject orthodox wisdom and
pigheaded enough to refuse to give up. Historically this has been a useful
combination in (e.g.) inventors.

Unfortunately, though, the combination occurs even more often in people
who are simply out of sync with reality.

Thirty years ago, cryonicists started out in much the same style as Trygve
Bauge, doing it themselves with minimal technology on their home property.
They were naive to think their haphazard approach would work, and
pigheaded in their obstinacy. Since that time, some painful lessons have
been learned by those willing to learn them. Alcor, for instance, has
fought a number of court battles which provided some hard but useful
lessons for all of us re dealing with bureaucrats.

The problem with Mr. Bauge (whom I spoke with at length on the phone some
time ago, when he was seeking money to complete his cryotorium) is that
he seems unwilling to learn any of these lessons. That attitude has
already cost him dearly. More to the point, however, by precipitating a
ludicrous situation (neighbors complaining about dead people stored on
his property) he threatens everything that has been achieved by cryonics
over three decades.

Unfortunately, he seems either too naive, or too pigheaded, to recognize
this. He also seems to have great difficulty even listening to other
people's points of view--which may be the source of his problems with his
neighbors in the first place.

I am glad that so far, this story has not been widely reported. But it
could easily turn into a scandal, and the more he complains publicly about
his "mistreatment," meanwhile also claiming to be a totally rational
individual pursuing cryonics in a sensible fashion, the more likely it
becomes that the story will cause a lot of grief for the rest of us.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4039
From: Trygve Bauge <trygveb@powertech.no>
Subject: Misunderstandings die hard, maybe they are frozen?
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 22:32:41 +0100 (GMT+0100)

> >perry@imsi.com (Perry E. Metzger) said:
> >
> >> Mr. Coetzee has demonstrated that he is just as out of touch with
> >> reality as Mr. Bauge.
> >>
> >Wait a minute, Mr. Metzger, who are you and what are your reasons
> >for resorting to false and deragatory attacks below the belt?
>
> I'm not attacking you below the belt. I'm merely noting that you are a
> person who goes about your business in such a way as to cause yourself
> the maxium possible hardship.

Not really. If I had wanted the most hardship I would not have left Norway
in the first place. Having read Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry etc.
I thought "Great" let me go to the United States. There at least the
legal presedence will be on my side: the side of life, liberty and
property. However I learned fast that these values are now for the most part
only paid lip service to in the United States too.
Norway is more protectionistic than the United States, and most people who
wanted some individual liberty have left a long time ago.
The problem is: where do we go when the United States is no longer
willing to uphold the beacon of Liberty and justice for all?

> People who think that cryonics is about
> putting grandpa on dry ice in the back barn are already suspect in my
> book --
I agree! And that was never my plan either. I designed and built
a state of the art fire proof, earthquake proof and storm proof
cryonic facility, including a care takers living quarters and a two story
attached concrete storage area with the space for one four person metal
dewar and one two person electrical freezer and cooldown box.
The building is designed and laid out so that it easily can be expanded
with a state of the art blast shelter and a earthenberm concrete
laboratory.
The latter can be added in segments so to take still more dewers,
Most of the building materials for the blast shelter had been bought
and are still at the building site.
The main building was almost complete when I moved in my grand father
around Christmas of 1993. We were all set to receive a two person
electrical freezer a month later. And the plan was to line up
one more client, install a four person metal dewar, and then complete
the roof above it and the door in front of it. The foundation, floor
nd three of the two story concrete walls were already built.
Then things fell apart: David Tate who was to provide the electrical
freezer, and the body of his friend Al Campbell, had mismeassured the body
and when he received the freezer the body didn't fit. He returned
the freezer and I was suddenly stuck with two bodies on dry ice in a
improvised metal shed. The plan was still to line up one more client
so to complete the purchace of a four person metal dewar and complete
the attached concrete storage vault. However the INS ordered me deported
in violation of my appeal rights, I got deported and the two bodies
were left on dry ice in the improvized metal shed.
The bodies were caught in transit so to speak. And if anyone think
that my venture was aimed at"storing grandpa on dry ice in the back barn"
then they are utterly mistaken.
Once again one does what one can afford: I couldn't afford to store
him longer at trans time. And it was only by moving him I could
maintain him. The dry ice storage was reasonably calculated to last no
more than 5 weeks or so which is not uncommon in cryonic circles.
If Svein Hindal and other cryonic clients had paid me what they owe me,
the situation would have been less pressed. In hindsight if I had known
that Svein Hindal would defraud me I would not have used money
earmarked for my grand father to assist Svein in freezing his mother.
There is no doubt in my mind that Froya Hindal would not have been frozen
without my coordination and assistance. And if Svein hadn't promissed to
compensate me I would not have assisted him.

>people who do it while attempting futile fights against the > government
are doubly suspect. > I was in court for eight years against the INS. And
the least one could expect is that they would respect due process. But I
learned otherwise. Every singly right that you folks take for granted, is
systematically and routinely violated by the immigration and naturalization
service. There is no trial by jury, any written or established right that
you invoke, is ignored. Illegally obtained evidence is not supressed. They
ignore at will established appeals rights. The first amendment and the right
to freedom of contract which are constitutional rights that should take
presedence over agency rules, are routinely violated by the agency's actions
and on and on. The established case laws amount to a systematic suspension
of almost every known right. Rights are universal and unalienable and not
just privileges granted to citizens at the whim of their government. I don't
think it is futile to fight protectionism, I have spend litterally thousands
of hours preparing how to enforce entrepreneurial Liberty. I look upon my
battle the same way I look upon my cryonics ventures and my rejuvenation
routines, and my designs for livable affordable life extension centers that
can survive nuclear war: I look upon each of these ventures as an integral
part of my most life extending venture combination and strategy. On the
other hand if it turns out to be futile to fight the INS then it certainly
is futile not to fight them. Without respect for individual autonomy,
entrepreneurial liberty and private property, there is not much hope that we
will greatly extend human life expectancy. Mind my words: a country that
retorts to tribal protectionism, will succomb to tribal warfare, If you
think you can build a future by acting as though the foreign born do not
have the same universal unalienable rights as yourself then don't be
surprized when your own government later takes away from you such rights
that you have let it take away from the foreign born! And if you wonder why
the rest of the world is not safe for Americans, then the answer can be
found in your own border patrol. No government agency is better at turning
good will towards the U.S. into animosity, than the I.N.S. And this is said
by someone who still regards himself as an American in Exile. When I was
held in a concentration camp for aliens back in 1986 I was the only one who
knew t
he law, still believed that it could be resurrected and who opted to
stay and fight in court. All the other inmates opted to go elsewhere and to
do to Americans what Jefferson did to the British! I since learned that
immigration court is a sham. The court doesn't even bother to give the
impression that justice is being served. But why bother to give the
impression that justice is being served, when it isn't! Protectionism is the
fore[Aign policy of the police state. and the police state is the domestic
po[Alicy of protectionism. If you want to know more about my battle and how it
is an integral part of a rational pursuit of longevity, I suggest you visit
my WWW pages. > I do not disagree that you should have the ability to do any
of the > damnfool things you've done It is important to stand up for what is
right. It has been a rational and proud stand. Only by implementing liberty
can I best implement my most life extending ventures. I can do so much more
with the flexibility that liberty and rights respect offer. >-- but your
mechanism for attempting to > fight for your rights seems hopelessly naive,
Please be specific: What specific action of mine has been naive? and what
alternative action would have been less naive? What of my assumptions do you
challenge? Only if you are specific can I correct you when you are wrong and
learn from you when you are right. > and most of what you > have done has,
from a pragmatic standpoint, been very foolish to say the > least. Once
again be specific what specific actions were foolish. Please keep in mind
that these actions were not taken in a vacume but in specific situations
where I after a lot of deliberation found them to be better than any
alternative open to me at the time. > If you want to undertsand the
rationale behind my actions, I suggest you visit my WWW pages. It would
prevent a lot of misunderstandings. But on the other hand it is easier to
jump to wrong conclusions. [C
manual" by Trygveb@powertech.no For a licensed copy of the full manual send
$20 +your email address to: Trygve Bauge, Olaf Bull's vei #12 Apt. #229,
0765 Oslo, Norway. To look at samples before buying:
[Bhttp://www.powertech.no/~trygveb/

[thefirstimmortal]

>Thirty years ago, cryonicists started out in much the same style as Trygve
>Bauge,
NO! THEY DIDN'T!
As far as I know, they didn't freeze anyone from abroad,
They didn't build state of the art nuclear war proof life extension centers
they didn't push for electrical freezers that were cold enough and large enough
as I have done for the last few years. (now the remaining task
is to make them affordable through varied use, mass production and
placement near cheap electricity (like in Norway))

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4113
From: Trygve Bauge <trygveb@powertech.no>
Subject: Re: The rest of the story!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 17:20:32 +0100 (GMT+0100)

>
> > A french yogi just failed to beat my world record for ice bathing!
>
> Please tell me more. Was this salt or fresh water? What were you
> wearing? How long were you in the ice water? Did you suffer any
> medical consequences? How did you know when it was time to get out?
>
> I speak as someone who always keeps the thermometer above 30 C, and
> who doesn't like ice on the road or in my drinks or anywhere else.

The world record for ice bathing in 0 degree water (32 degrees Fahrenheit)
with airtemperature at or below freezing is still 1 hour and 4 minutes.

I set the world record on February the 14th 1994,
in a cold water tank at the Rocky Mountain Life Extension Center
in Nederland Colorado.