5 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4674
Date: 27 Jul 95 12:09:16 EDT
From: "Kent, Saul" <71043.1120@compuserve.com>
Subject: Stability

With regard to the "stability" of cryonics organizations as a
means of deciding which organization to join, I have the following advice:
If you do not intend (or are unable) to be an active member of
your cryonics organization, you should join the organization that has, in
your opinion, the best chance of long-term survival.
If you intend (and are able) to be an active member of your
organization over a long period of time, you should join the organization
that is run by people who you believe you are most compatible with.
If you are not happy with any of the existing organizations, you
should start your own cryonics organization.

---Saul Kent

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4688
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 95 14:04:07
From: Steve Bridge <steve@alcor.org>
Subject: Organizations, survival, and 10%

At least
while you are alive you can switch companies whenever you want. True,
once a particular company eventually freezes you, you pretty much have to
hope you ended up with the right one and that they continue to make the
decisions you would have agreed with.

But being part of SOMETHING raises your odds astronomically above
those who are part of nothing but a cremation club. And in cryonics you
can PARTICIPATE in your organization and make it stronger.

To somewhat alter an analogy of Mike Darwin's: When you are trapped
in a burning building and ready to jump onto a fireman's ladder, you don't
stop to look for cracks in the ladder or ask to examine the ladder's
safety inspection records.

Check the ladder's safety NOW if you like, and donate money for a new
ladder if you don't like what you find; but don't tell the fire department
you would prefer they not come at all.

[thefirstimmortal]

I've written at least two lengthy CryoNet postings on this subject.
Maybe Kevin can give you the MSG numbers. To simplify greatly: Many
people have this notion that we will freeze a bunch of people today and
then a hundred years from now, a bunch of immortal strangers will suddenly
discover them.

Nope. If that is the case, patients will not last to that future,
because no organizations will have been taking care of them for all that
time. Patient Care requires ATTENTION. If there are patients frozen in
100 years, it will be because:

1. Organizations survived and GREW.

2. Many thousands of people contributed their time and their money, and
eventually went into suspension.

3. Most of these thousands made sure to have many friends and
descendants.

The current cryonics patients have many living friends and relatives
who would do just about anything to see them repaired and "alive" again.
Those last cryonics patients in the future (in that time where fewer and
fewer people are dying and *needing* suspension) will also have a lot of
friends and family alive. Even if you have become immortal, wouldn't you
want to expend a lot of energy and money to push for the recovery of your
wife, your brother, your parents, your best friend?

And when they were finally brought out of suspension and made healthy
and immortal themselves, wouldn't they want to revive the lovers, and
family, and friends who preceded them into suspension?

Besides, the *cryonics organization ITSELF*, if it survives, is
likely to have an immense amount of money and motivation available to it
to work on revival. True, sometimes the ideals and goals of an
organization change over time. But it seems likely that the balance of
the two-- family and organization-- raises the odds a lot higher.

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4694
Date: 31 Jul 1995 07:11:27 U
From: "Norton, Brook" <norton@mdta.mdc.com>
Subject: Patient long term survival

Here is perhaps a little different angle on long term survival of cryonics
companies. First, the real goal is not for the co to survive but rather, for
the patient to survive. When a private art gallery goes bankrupt, the
masterpieces are not destroyed with the co. They are sold to another art
gallery that is more efficient, and the masterpiece "lives on" in a new home.
When a family goes bankrupt, the mother's diamond ring isn't crushed, its sold
and "lives on" with another family. So isn't there a way to treat the patients
like masterpieces or diamond rings.... to make the patient a commodity that
other companies would be willing to pay for should the first cryonics co go
under? In this way the patient "lives on" regardless of whether the co lasts a
year or a century.

I believe the basic idea would be to somehow legally tie a lot of funds to the
patients. Enough funds so that the interest not only pays for upkeep, but
provides a healthy profit for the overseer. When a co goes under, the funds
tied to the patient(s) are untouchable. The next co would take over the
patients to get access to the profit generated by the "excess interest". If my
cryonics provider goes under, I want to be viewed by the rest of the world as
an opportunity for profit rather than a burden to be delt with.

Perhaps another variation on this theme is an industry insurance fund that all
cos contribute to. Should one co go under, the insurance pays the next co
enough money to make it worth their while to take over the patients.

I know that implementing the above is financially and legally very difficult
and so I'm not criticizing existing cos for their survival strategies at this
time... but in the long run, passing patients from co to co sounds the most
secure to me.

Brook Norton

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4699
From: Brian Wowk <wowk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 01:55:07 -0500
Subject: Patient long term survival



This is a very, very important point. Your survival does not
depend on the fortunes of any particular company as much as it depends
on the safety of the *money* that pays for your care. As long as
enough money exists to support your care, there will always be
someone (even on a wartime black market if necessary) that can provide
liquid nitrogen to keep you in.

Setting aside money for your care *outside* the hands of your
cryonics company is certainly a good idea. This will protect it
from potential abuse, lawsuits, creditor claims or other calamities
that might befall the company itself. The first step in this direction
took place about six years ago with the formation of the Reanimation
Foundation in Leichtenstein by Saul Kent and Bill Faloon. The Reanimation
Foundation was (and is) intended as a repository for "surplus" funds of
wealthy suspendees to safeguard their care should their primary cryonics
company fail. Recently Dave Pizer of the Venturists has proposed
forming similar "backup" trust funds under the oversight of the Venturist
organization. The disadvantage of either of these plans is that they
require thousands of dollars in up-front setup fees, and surplus funds
far in excess your cryonics organization minimums.

Enter CryoCare. When CryoCare was formed in 1993, the importance
of segregating patient care funds from the companies that provide care
was recognized immediately. Consequently, when a CryoCare member is
cryopreserved, all funds remaining after the upfront costs of the
procedure are IMMEDIATELY and AUTOMATICALLY transferred to an INDIVIDUAL
account in a separate money management organization called the
Independent Patient Care Foundation (IPCF). The IPCF is legally,
financially, and administratively independent of CryoCare. Even if
CryoCare one day fails completely (embroiled in lawsuits and red ink?),
the IPCF would remain intact as the ultimate custodian of patient
care funds.

Yet another "separation of powers" exists in CryoCare as well.
CryoCare contracts out the actual physical storage of patients to
other companies. (We currently have agreements with CryoSpan in
California and the Cryonics Institute in Michigan.) This gives us
the option to move patients between companies should any individual
storage company fail.

>I know that implementing the above is financially and legally very difficult
>and so I'm not criticizing existing cos for their survival strategies at this
>time...

Difficult, yes. But we have done it, and we would like to see
other organizations with primary responsibility for cryonics patients
take steps in this direction as well.

Brian Wowk
President
CryoCare Foundation

[thefirstimmortal]

X-Message-Number: 4700
Date: 02 Aug 95 04:53:51 EDT
From: "Steven B. Harris" <71450.1773@compuserve.com>
Subject: CRYONICS: Long Term Co. Survival

Brook, as you will no doubt be told, some of us are way ahead
of you. The plan you've just outlined is very much how the set
of companies set up under CryoCare works. We designed it to be
something like a "voucher system" for frozen people. Under our
set of contracts you CAN be moved from storage company to storage
company, at the behest of your Advocates (whom you select, and
also the manner in which they are replaced in the future), and
your upkeep yearly stipend transfers with you, but not the
principal. Your advocates can make *this* decision (where to
store you), but they can't thaw you out, or get at your main
funds, which are held separately. How attractive you make it for
storage companies to store you depends entirely upon how much
money you set aside in this fashion, but that's a decision you
can make by buying insurance NOW.

This second generation setup is indeed, we think, the optimal
way to do cryonics, and we think it's the way it will be done
most successfully in the future. The idea and the execution is
the product of many minds, but we're all real proud of it.

Steve Harris