21 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I am scheduled to get blood work done in a week and a half but I have noticed that in the past week or so I have been urinating about 15 times a day. I have been taking niacin intermittently for the past 2 weeks. I started out taking it every other day, but have not taken it for about 3 days now. I know that it has been cited to temporarily raise blood glucose levels, but would it raise them this long after supplementation? I ask because I have a couple of other ideas about why I might be urinating so much lately and I wanted to either affirm or eliminate this possibility.

Male, 26, current diet, low carb vegetarian. Get about 150 grams of protein a day from various sources. Never consume extraneous or processed sugars. Don't eat any fruits currently beside berries 3-4 times a week in small quantities.

Other supplements taken include

'alive' multi vitamin (which I only take in half doses because I also take B vitamins throughout the day).

Astragalous root.

Vitamin C

MSM

Vitamin D

vitamin K

grapeseed extract

pomegranate berry extract

Hyaluranic acid

Gelatin

Ornithine amino acid

jarrosil

L-carnosine

taurine

Beta-alanine (before workouts)

Fish oil

Alpha-lipoic acid

saint johns wort

ALCAR

Kelp (iodine)

GTF chromium

Melatonin

Zinc picolinate

Soy isoflavones

Huperzine-A (rarely)

Valerian root (once every couple days or when stressed)

Calcium (a couple times a week)

[mikeinnaples]

Niacin will raise fasting glucose levels if taken daily at a high enough dose. However, given that you do not take it regularly, nor taken it for a few days, and judging from your other posts, haven't taken a large amount of it ....it would be absolutely impossible to guess if it would effect your glucose levels and by how much. If you are worried about it affecting blood work or being the cause of your urination (a long time niacin user here at 2g a day, and this doesnt happen to me), then I would simply cease taking it until after your bloodwork.

Typically when I have frequent urination, it is because I drink to much fluid.

[TheFountain]

Niacin will raise fasting glucose levels if taken daily at a high enough dose. However, given that you do not take it regularly, nor taken it for a few days, and judging from your other posts, haven't taken a large amount of it ....it would be absolutely impossible to guess if it would effect your glucose levels and by how much. If you are worried about it affecting blood work or being the cause of your urination (a long time niacin user here at 2g a day, and this doesnt happen to me), then I would simply cease taking it until after your bloodwork.

Typically when I have frequent urination, it is because I drink to much fluid.

I read another post in which someone suggested that raised blood glucose levels as a result of niacin consumption was an indication of being 'pre-diabetic'. Other posts I have read contradict this by saying that it is somewhat normal for a cross section of the population taking niacin to experience this effect temporarily. Another question I have is regarding why the flush effect happens intermittently (meaning, not every time one takes the supplement). I wonder if it indicates toxicity levels. I.E the more one flushes the more they have to get rid of?

[mikeinnaples]

I am not sure why you are stuck on toxicities regarding niacin flush. The men's fitness article and the one where they ripped the idea from are total bunk in my opinion.

From the mayo clinic site:

Niacin is the most effective lipid-modifying agent for raising high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, but it also causes cutaneous vasodilation with flushing. To determine the frequency of flushing in clinical trials, as well as to delineate counseling and treatment approaches to prevent or manage flushing, a MEDLINE search was conducted of English-language literature from January 1, 1985, through April 7, 2009. This search used the title keywords niacin or nicotinic acid crossed with the Medical Subject Headings adverse effects and human. Niacin flushing is a receptor-mediated, mainly prostaglandin D2–driven phenomenon, the frequency, onset, and duration of which are largely determined by the distinct pharmacological and metabolic profiles of different niacin formulations. Subjective assessments include ratings of redness, warmth, itching, and tingling. In clinical trials, most (>60%) niacin users experienced mild or moderate flushing, which tended to decrease in frequency and severity with continued niacin treatment, even with advancing doses. Approximately 5% to 20% of patients discontinued treatment because of flushing. Flushing may be minimized by taking niacin with meals (or at bedtime with a low-fat snack), avoiding exacerbating factors (alcohol or hot beverages), and taking 325 mg of aspirin 30 minutes before niacin dosing. The current review advocates an initially slow niacin dose escalation from 0.5 to 1.0 g/d during 8 weeks and then from 1.0 to 2.0 g in a single titration step (if tolerated). Through effective counseling, treatment prophylaxis with aspirin, and careful dose escalation, adherence to niacin treatment can be improved significantly. Wider implementation of these measures should enable higher proportions of patients to reach sufficient niacin doses over time to prevent cardiovascular events.

Source

[pycnogenol]

The Fountain,

How much niacin have you been taking?

I used to take niacin at 1 gram per day for cholesterol but it did cause glucose spikes (I test my blood regularly) so I switched over to 600 mg of Panethine which thankfully does not raise my blood glucose.

Edited by pycnogenol, 11 January 2011 - 04:33 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I would also like to restate that the flush will diminish over repeated use. However, this is likely to not happen unless you use it regularly. If you take 500mg on monday and wwait until friday to take it again, you will more than likely have no diminishing of the flush. I started at 250mg and only increased dosage when the flush stopped occuring, gradually working my way up to a single dose of 2g. That seems to be the optimal amount for me regarding lipid profile -and- walking the line with flush. Sometimes I have no flush period, and others I flush noticeably. However, I can pop 500 mg and won't ever flush.

[TheFountain]

I am not sure why you are stuck on toxicities regarding niacin flush.

I am not saying that, what I am asking is whether or not the level of a persons pre-supplement toxicity levels might have to do with how intensely they flush. In other words that the niacin is getting rid of more garbage, depending on who is taking it and their bodily toxin levels prior to supplementing?

The reason I am asking this is because I read several disjointed articles about niacin, aside from improving lipid profiles, also has a detoxifying effect on the body and that this 'vasodilation' is responsible for 'flushing out toxins.

[TheFountain]

The Fountain,

How much niacin have you been taking?

I used to take niacin at 1 gram per day for cholesterol but it did cause glucose spikes (I test my blood regularly) so I switched over to 600 mg of Panethine which thankfully does not raise my blood glucose.

How long did you take niacin? And what symptoms made you first suspect that it had raised your BG levels?

Oh, I am taking 500 mgs currently of twin laps niacin.

[TheFountain]

I would also like to restate that the flush will diminish over repeated use. However, this is likely to not happen unless you use it regularly. If you take 500mg on monday and wwait until friday to take it again, you will more than likely have no diminishing of the flush. I started at 250mg and only increased dosage when the flush stopped occuring, gradually working my way up to a single dose of 2g. That seems to be the optimal amount for me regarding lipid profile -and- walking the line with flush. Sometimes I have no flush period, and others I flush noticeably. However, I can pop 500 mg and won't ever flush.

The first time I took niacin I flushed, as I did the time after that. The third time I didn't. Then The fourth time I did, and then the fifth I didn't again. This most recent time I did flush also. That seems strange to me. More like the flush effect kicking in whenever it pleases. I pretty much eat the same meal prior to taking the niacin every time, whether I flush or I don't.

Edited by TheFountain, 11 January 2011 - 05:56 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I am not sure why you are stuck on toxicities regarding niacin flush.

I am not saying that, what I am asking is whether or not the level of a persons pre-supplement toxicity levels might have to do with how intensely they flush. In other words that the niacin is getting rid of more garbage, depending on who is taking it and their bodily toxin levels prior to supplementing?

The reason I am asking this is because I read several disjointed articles about niacin, aside from improving lipid profiles, also has a detoxifying effect on the body and that this 'vasodilation' is responsible for 'flushing out toxins.

Toxins have nothing to do with it. I posted you an article with the reason for flush as well as why it varies. Read the abstract at the mayo clinic and the paper linked from it.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 11 January 2011 - 06:01 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I would also like to restate that the flush will diminish over repeated use. However, this is likely to not happen unless you use it regularly. If you take 500mg on monday and wwait until friday to take it again, you will more than likely have no diminishing of the flush. I started at 250mg and only increased dosage when the flush stopped occuring, gradually working my way up to a single dose of 2g. That seems to be the optimal amount for me regarding lipid profile -and- walking the line with flush. Sometimes I have no flush period, and others I flush noticeably. However, I can pop 500 mg and won't ever flush.

The first time I took niacin I flushed, as I did the time after that. The third time I didn't. Then The fourth time I did, and then the fifth I didn't again. This most recent time I did flush also. That seems strange to me. More like the flush effect kicking in whenever it pleases. I pretty much eat the same meal prior to taking the niacin every time, whether I flush or I don't.

Again, the article I quoted and linked to you answers your questions.

[mikeinnaples]

In case the abstract wasn't detailed enough, here is the full paper:

http://www.mayoclini...t/85/4/365.full

[mikeinnaples]

Also if you look at side effects, you will seen that one of the known side effects of Niacin use is DECREASED urination.

I believe that is the exact opposite of what you are attributing to it.

I understand your concern because one symptom of elevated glucose is frequent urination, however, it does not appear to be symptom of elevated glucose due to Niacin use. Aside from that, your glucose isn't elevated enough by Niacin alone, let alone at your minimal dosage, to sufficiently elevate blood glucose to be symptomatic ...of course, barring other conditions or supplement interactions.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 11 January 2011 - 06:17 PM.

[pycnogenol]

How long did you take niacin? And what symptoms made you first suspect that it had raised your BG levels?

Not very long. My meter readings showed a consistent rising pattern when taking niacin and when I discontinued
niacin my BG stabilized and didn't spike. My liver enzymes were also slightly elevated when taking niacin.

Edited by pycnogenol, 11 January 2011 - 06:20 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Quick simple search on niacin and raising bg:

Yes, it does. In the vast majority of instances, however, the rise is trivial and without consequence. Typically, someone will start with a borderline elevated blood sugar of, say, 108 mg/dl. Niacin, 1000 mg per day, then raises blood sugar to 112 mg/dl. This small increase does not oblige any specific action, nor does it pose any excess risk.

Blood sugars in the normal range of <100 mg/dl tend not to show this effect. Higher blood sugars, e.g., 130 mg/dl, may show a more exagerrated effect but it is also rarely of great consequence. People who take medications for adult type II diabetes, or people with childhood-onset, type I diabetes will also experience rises in blood sugar. This is a somewhat larger issue in these people.

At 2g a day, I jumped from 79 to 101 on my first set of blood work after starting. This is considerably higher than what most people report with lab results, HOWEVER, I also started other supplements at the same time that are known to mess with BG (pyridoxamine for example). My BG since then is back in the 70's ...though that means little out side of pure ancedote due to my supplementation with Metformin.

Edit: Pubmed article I found states:

On the basis of our analysis, the effects of niacin (< or =2.5 g/d), alone or in combination with statins, on fasting glucose (an increase of 4%-5%) and hemoglobin A1c levels (an increase of < or =0.3%) are modest, transient or reversible, and typically amenable to adjustments in oral hypoglycemic regimens without discontinuing niacin.

So it looks like the average increase on up to 2.5g of Niacin is 4-5% of fasting BG.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 11 January 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

How long did you take niacin? And what symptoms made you first suspect that it had raised your BG levels?

Not very long. My meter readings showed a consistent rising pattern when taking niacin and when I discontinued
niacin my BG stabilized and didn't spike. My liver enzymes were also slightly elevated when taking niacin.

The BG spike is usually temporary from what I can tell via reading some of the research.

[TheFountain]

I am not sure why you are stuck on toxicities regarding niacin flush.

I am not saying that, what I am asking is whether or not the level of a persons pre-supplement toxicity levels might have to do with how intensely they flush. In other words that the niacin is getting rid of more garbage, depending on who is taking it and their bodily toxin levels prior to supplementing?

The reason I am asking this is because I read several disjointed articles about niacin, aside from improving lipid profiles, also has a detoxifying effect on the body and that this 'vasodilation' is responsible for 'flushing out toxins.

Toxins have nothing to do with it. I posted you an article with the reason for flush as well as why it varies. Read the abstract at the mayo clinic and the paper linked from it.

The abstract you posted earlier did not shed any light on the involvement or lack thereof of toxins. I will read the rest though shortly. m

[mikeinnaples]

The abstract you posted earlier did not shed any light on the involvement or lack thereof of toxins. I will read the rest though shortly. m

The paper specifically states what Niacin flush is, the cause, and what influences intensity levels. You will note in the paper that flush intensity isn't about mysterious toxins. Can you cite an actual study about niacin and toxins and what the 'toxins' are, and I dont mean that hack men's fitness article or the other ones that latched on to the same source... I mean some real science.

[TheFountain]

The abstract you posted earlier did not shed any light on the involvement or lack thereof of toxins. I will read the rest though shortly. m

The paper specifically states what Niacin flush is, the cause, and what influences intensity levels. You will note in the paper that flush intensity isn't about mysterious toxins. Can you cite an actual study about niacin and toxins and what the 'toxins' are, and I dont mean that hack men's fitness article or the other ones that latched on to the same source... I mean some real science.

Dude i'm not arguing the toxins point I am asking questions specifically because of disjointed information out there. One thing is certain, niacin has been definitely helping to clear my skin of something, be it toxins or something else. Maybe it's just this vasodilation effect that is responsible for this result. What do you think? My skin looks remarkably clearer and the circles under my eyes much less prominent after niacin flushing occurs.

[mikeinnaples]

Dude i'm not arguing the toxins point I am asking questions specifically because of disjointed information out there. One thing is certain, niacin has been definitely helping to clear my skin of something, be it toxins or something else. Maybe it's just this vasodilation effect that is responsible for this result. What do you think? My skin looks remarkably clearer and the circles under my eyes much less prominent after niacin flushing occurs.

It seemed like it to me because you kept mentioning it and bringing it up. The disjointed information out there is exactly that. According to the actual research, the toxin/flush theory is pure bunk. I am not sure what to say about the skin result you are seeing, I know topical niacinamide does wonders ...but that isnt the same thing. I haven't experienced what you have myself first hand. I can tell you that taking Niacin before bed will help you sleep better, providing the flush isn't so bad for you that it keeps you awake. I believe some of the research out there on nicotnic acid supports that as well.

[TheFountain]

Dude i'm not arguing the toxins point I am asking questions specifically because of disjointed information out there. One thing is certain, niacin has been definitely helping to clear my skin of something, be it toxins or something else. Maybe it's just this vasodilation effect that is responsible for this result. What do you think? My skin looks remarkably clearer and the circles under my eyes much less prominent after niacin flushing occurs.

It seemed like it to me because you kept mentioning it and bringing it up. The disjointed information out there is exactly that. According to the actual research, the toxin/flush theory is pure bunk. I am not sure what to say about the skin result you are seeing, I know topical niacinamide does wonders ...but that isnt the same thing. I haven't experienced what you have myself first hand. I can tell you that taking Niacin before bed will help you sleep better, providing the flush isn't so bad for you that it keeps you awake. I believe some of the research out there on nicotnic acid supports that as well.

Any idea what might be causing my increase in urinary output? That's why I included the list of other supplements I am currently taking, to see if anyone can cite any possible interactions. Recent dietary changes include adding 'organic' milk back into the regimen, and discontinuing cocoa consumption, at least for now.

Here is a sample day of my current diet.

First meal-An omellete made of 4 scrambled 1:1 omega-3 eggs with raw cheese and tomatos/olives.

Some greek yogurt with blueberries and flaxseeds.

Half hour later a protein shake consisting of 20 grams pea protein in approximately 8 oz of organic omega 3 milk

I have pretty much cut all fish out of my diet and only consume shrimp 2-3 times a week.

So my third meal would generally be another 4 eggs with a bowl of shrimp and a salad consisting of kale, tomatos, mushrooms, olives, sweet peppers, etc

With this meal I generally have a sweet potato and another pea protein shake

later in the evening I consume another of the above mentioned protein shakes

Between meal snacks include a handful or two of almonds and/or macadamia nuts and/or cashews (consumed more rarely than the former).
I consume about half a gallon of water a day.

Edited by TheFountain, 14 January 2011 - 04:01 PM.

[TheFountain]

The other thing I am curious about is whether or not alcohol consumption has to be stopped completely when supplementing with niacin or just within a certain amount of hours before and after. I don't drink much but I do enjoy the occasional glass of red wine.