43 replies to this topic

[dehbleh]

To give some background to my situation, I'm only 25 and have been medically diagnosed with the following:

* Hypertension with a widened pulse pressure (between 60-85) and relatively low resting heart rate (40-60bpm)
* Pulmonary Hypertension
* Right Ventricular Dysplasia with occasional Arrhythmia and upper body Oedema
* Left Subclavian Vein Stenosis with many large collateral veins accumulating across my chest to compensate.
* Treatment Resistant G.E.R.D. and Constipation with adverse reactions from fatty meals.
* Frequent elevation of Liver Enzymes diagnosed as "Gilbert's Syndrome"
* High Cholesterol with elevated LDL and Total Cholesterol levels

All of the above can be considered "idiopathic" as no doctor has bothered to find out why my body is fucking up like this. They would all prefer to "carefully monitor" whilst my condition has become worse (particularly over the past 2 years).

My impatience towards Australia's slow and generally apathetic health system has meant that I've tried nearly every supplement in the book (mostly to my own detriment). I wish we had a Mayo Clinic in our country as I would gladly pay whatever is necessary to get to the bottom of these problems.

For now I only take the following, as I feel a genuine improvement with this simple regime :

Morning:
* 2 x 4mg Perindopril Erbumine (Coversyl)
* 1 x 12.5mg Atenolol (Noten)
* 1 x 300mg Milk Thistle Extract 80% (Now Foods)

Night:
* 1 x 200mg Magnesium Citrate (Now Foods)
* 1 x 300mg Milk Thistle Extract 80% (Now Foods)


Now to my point. Upon first taking Milk Thistle I suffered from an incredible unconformable sensation to the right of my stomach. The feeling of pressure and general fluid retention which I'm regretfully used to (my cardiologist attributes these symptoms to my heart condition) gradually built up. I felt like I was going to either pass out or explode the pressure was getting so intense. I decided to go for a walk, as I find exercise to generally help with oedema.

Then it happened. It felt like something exploded inside my stomach. I was quite afraid as I've never felt anything like it before and couldn't walk as my legs and arms felt incredibly weak. My stomach started churning and making very loud noises. About 5 minutes later I began to feel an increasing relief throughout my whole body, despite feeling concerned at what just happened. It's hard to describe but basically felt like my digestive system was "moving" again.

I had a bowel movement shortly after and the feeling of relief continued to intensify whilst my stomach kept on churning. I was bound to my seat from the feeling of relief, but it felt damn good!

Over the next day the feeling of relief gradually subsided and the feeling of fullness & oedema (particularly strong after fatty meals) came back. I decided to try Silymarin 300mg again and the same reaction of sudden relief, gastrointestinal symptoms, bowel movement, feeling awesome but weak etc... happened. It was less intense but still prominent. Almost immediately I felt like I was onto something good here.


Over the next month I took 300mg of Silymarin twice daily with similar reactions, but seemingly less intense by the day. Meanwhile I've noticed the following improvements:

* The feeling of pressure and oedema have gradually occurred less often.
* My average blood pressure has gone from 135/55 to regularly sitting around 110/65. Sometimes it goes even lower so I'm now considering reducing my BP med dosages.
* My GERD symptoms that I get from eating large fatty meals have nearly all but ceased.
* The yellow hue on my skin (which I've had all my life) has eased dramatically. Several people have commented on how "healthy" I look, usually it's the opposite.
* I'm sleeping better.
* No longer chronically constipated.
* The collateral veins across my chest are now hardly visible.
* Alcohol hangover is now much less severe. I'm usually known for my horrible 2-day hangovers.


I'm fairly skeptical with supplements these days, having tried nearly everything under the sun, but it would seem like Milk Thistle is some sort of panacea for all of my particular health ailments. No supplement has ever benefited me this much, the transformation is really quite amazing.

I have a lot of different little theories going through my head as to how it could be helping. The main one is that all my life I've had some form of Chloestasis (bile flow impairment) and Milk Thistle being the reported liver tonic it is has restored this movement resulting in a gradual remission of symptoms.


Coincidentally, nearly every single one of my medically diagnosed conditions has a connection to the liver. Only time will tell if my other parameters such as pulse pressure, pulmonary hypertension, right ventricular dysplasia, liver enzymes etc.. improve.

I will keep you posted on how my next lot of pathology & imaging tests turn out.

[Lufega]

Did your Doctor comment on your apparent state of Jaundice ? (yellow hue, as you describe)

[health_nutty]

Sounds like you had a blocked bile duct in your liver that the milk thistle unclogged. Pretty impressive!

[dehbleh]

Did your Doctor comment on your apparent state of Jaundice ? (yellow hue, as you describe)

Yes, several doctors have noticed it and commented on my liver enzymes. They can't find any obvious reason for the jaundice.
I've been told by several doctors that it's just Gilbert's Syndrome, a reportedly benign condition that I shouldn't worry about.

[motif]

you would get better results effect applying coffee enema or liver flushing which clears the bile ducts and boost the liver.

[hamishm00]

references??

None.

[motif]

references??

None.

educated yourself, I'm not your teacher.

[maxwatt]

references??

None.

educated yourself, I'm not your teacher.

We like to see references when extraordinary claims are made. And I'm surprised you didn't mention the garlic enemas.

[kilgoretrout]

There's pretty impressive huge amount of evidence that Silymarin in fact results in dramatic improvements in liver functioning.

[tintinet]

Silymarin certainly seems more convenient to take than coffee enemas, at least.

[motif]

references??

None.

educated yourself, I'm not your teacher.

We like to see references when extraordinary claims are made. And I'm surprised you didn't mention the garlic enemas.

Max Gerson

I just assumed some basics are well known as they should be on forum like that.

Edited by motif, 21 January 2011 - 12:40 PM.

[maxwatt]

We like to see references when extraordinary claims are made. And I'm surprised you didn't mention the garlic enemas.

Max Gerson

I just assumed some basics are well known as they should be on forum like that.

I'm not saying he's a quack, I'm just saying that Gerson's claims were evaluated by the National Cancer Institute who was found that his records lacked the basic information necessary to systematically evaluate his claims. Theyconcluded that Gerson's data showed no benefit from his treatment. The therapy is considered scientifically unsupported and potentially hazardous by the American Cancer Society and by Sloan Kettering.

[motif]

We like to see references when extraordinary claims are made. And I'm surprised you didn't mention the garlic enemas.

Max Gerson

I just assumed some basics are well known as they should be on forum like that.

I'm not saying he's a quack, I'm just saying that Gerson's claims were evaluated by the National Cancer Institute who was found that his records lacked the basic information necessary to systematically evaluate his claims. Theyconcluded that Gerson's data showed no benefit from his treatment. The therapy is considered scientifically unsupported and potentially hazardous by the American Cancer Society and by Sloan Kettering.

I also thought that on forum like this we know better then that.
Since when big pharma and institutions or "study" founded by them ever admit something natural works???
They will never do as they will never find drug that cures the cancer etc, cured patient is the lost patient remember?

[stephen_b]

you would get better results effect applying coffee enema or liver flushing which clears the bile ducts and boost the liver.

I'm having trouble understanding how an enema could affect the bile ducts at the other end of the digestive system?

Not to derail the thread -- thanks to the OP for the report on milk thistle.

[health_nutty]

Since when big pharma and institutions or "study" founded by them ever admit something natural works???

Lets see: green tea, pomegranate, cocoa, red wine, coq10, taurine, off the top of my head.

Edited by health_nutty, 21 January 2011 - 04:36 PM.

[Alec]

Since when big pharma and institutions or "study" founded by them ever admit something natural works???

Lets see: green tea, pomegranate, cocoa, red wine, coq10, taurine, off the top of my head.

And pyridoxamine.

[thevaughny]

Since when big pharma and institutions or "study" founded by them ever admit something natural works???

Lets see: green tea, pomegranate, cocoa, red wine, coq10, taurine, off the top of my head.

And pyridoxamine.

Fish Oil, Niacin.

[motif]

you would get better results effect applying coffee enema or liver flushing which clears the bile ducts and boost the liver.

I'm having trouble understanding how an enema could affect the bile ducts at the other end of the digestive system?

http://medicinefromw...om-doctors.html

Monday, April 14, 2008
More on Coffee Enemas from Doctors
Dr William D. Kelley, DDS, MS:

"A coffee enema should be given every morning for one month; then twice a week for eight months. The coffee enema is very stimulating to the liver, and is the greatest aid in eliminating its toxic poisons."

"The word detox does not appear in the main textbook on cancer or the main medical textbook...the word in medicine refers to heroin addicts and getting them off heroin...they do not conceive that their are such things as toxins created by a tumour...where do they think it all goes?"-----Ralph Moss

Dr Jethro Kloss, MD Back to Eden (Page 862)

(here are many reasons for doing enemas, including)"...enemas taken with only a relatively small amount of fluid in order to cleanse the rectum and lower colon; astringent enemas, taken to relieve inflammation in diarrhea, dysentery, etc.; nourishing enemas, given in wasting diseases, unconsciousness, and other conditions where it becomes necessary to administer food by rectum....(and) enemas taken to thoroughly cleanse the entire length of the colon'

James A. Balch, MD. (Prescripton for Nutritional Healing Pages 323,324)

.……cleansing enemas are not retained or held in the body; they are used to flush out the colon...(A coffee enema) is beneficial in treatment.. .because it stimulates the liver to excrete toxins or 'poison bile.' It's called a retention enema because it is held in or retained for fifteen minutes."

Dr Patrick Quillin, PhD, RD (Beating Cancer With Nutrition)

"enemas are one of the oldest healing modalities in human literature...Coffee enemas have been in the Merck Medical Manual for decades, until 1977, when editors of the manual claimed that this revered therapy was eliminated for 'lack of space' in the new manuscript. The reality is that coffee enemas became the focal point in criticizing alternative cancer therapies".

Dr Max Gerson, M.D. (A Cancer Therapy)

"In as much as detoxification of the body is of the greatest importance, especially in the beginning, it is absolutely necessary to administer frequent enemas, day and night (on the average, we give coffee enemas every four hours, day and night, and even more frequently against severe pain, nausea, general nervous tension and depression)...Some patients take enemas every two hours, or even more frequently, during the first days of the treatment. More advanced cases are severely intoxicated and the absorption of the tumor masses, glands, etc., intoxicates them even more. Many years ago I lost several patients by coma hepaticum, since I did not know, and therefore neglected, the vital importance of frequent and regularly continued elimination of poisonous substances, with the help of juices, enemas, etc."

Dr Alan Nittler, M.D. (A New Breed of Doctor)

"(Coffee enemas for gallbladder problems)..'The coffee enema causes a relaxation in the liver-gallbladder region which gives rapid relief of pain. If you are lucky, you could even pass a gallstone or two. Maybe more. If you are not lucky, the pain returns and you must repeat the process until help can arrive for more definitive care. In either event, you have jeopardized nothing. This is the one and only time I recommend coffee. As a drink, it is a no-no for hypoglycemics, which applies to most people".

"Some metabolic therapists insist on daily enemas, including coffee enemas (excellent detoxifiers of the liver) in order to cleanse the system.."-----Dr Harold W Harper, MD ( How You Can Beat the Killer diseases 169)

Dr John Sessions, DO (Coping With Cancer page 29) The coffee enema stimulates the liver, alkalines the duodenum, and helps eliminate toxic wastes. It dissolves encrusted wastes that have accumulated along the colon walls, and the caffeine content encourages peristaltic muscle contraction to loosen deposits which may show up as 'ropes' of mucus. Gradually, as protein metabolism improves, the colon's muscle tone also improves and bowel movements become normal without the aid of an enema."

Dr Elson Haas, M.D. (Staying Healthy With Nutrition)

"During a basic dietary detox programme, other, more subtle colon stimuli are usually used to enhance colon action. These may include herbal or pharmaceutical laxatives, fiber and colon detox supplements, such as psyllium seed husks alone or mixed with other agents, for example, aloe vera powder, bentonite clay, and acidophilus culture. Enemas using water, herbs, or even diluted coffee (stimulates liver cleansing) may also be used".

Dr Linda Rector Page, ND, PhD (Healthy Healing Page 32)

Coffee enemas have become standard m natural healing when liver and blood related cancers are present. Caffeine used in this way stimulates the liver and gallbladder to remove toxins, open bile ducts, encourage increased peristaltic action, and produce necessary enzyme activity for healthy red blood cell formation and oxygen uptake"

[tintinet]

We like to see references when extraordinary claims are made. And I'm surprised you didn't mention the garlic enemas.

Max Gerson

I just assumed some basics are well known as they should be on forum like that.

I'm not saying he's a quack, I'm just saying that Gerson's claims were evaluated by the National Cancer Institute who was found that his records lacked the basic information necessary to systematically evaluate his claims. Theyconcluded that Gerson's data showed no benefit from his treatment. The therapy is considered scientifically unsupported and potentially hazardous by the American Cancer Society and by Sloan Kettering.

I also thought that on forum like this we know better then that.
Since when big pharma and institutions or "study" founded by them ever admit something natural works???
They will never do as they will never find drug that cures the cancer etc, cured patient is the lost patient remember?

This is a bit much. Even big pharma is comprised of people, and the dead patient is certainly lost also.

[motif]

This is a bit much. Even big pharma is comprised of people, and the dead patient is certainly lost also.

of course, that's why you're good for them as long you're sick and alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHXXTCc-IVg

[dehbleh]

Quick progress update. In general, symptoms (mentioned in the first post) return once every 2 days but the severity and duration are greatly reduced.

I've identified the following triggers which exacerbate my symptoms.

* Fasting or going many hours without eating.
* Large meals. Eating steadily throughout the day helps.
* Meals with lots of protein and / or fat. Might explain why I was at my worst when I attempted the Paleo Diet.
* Over-training/reaching is a killer but might be an indirect correlation due to general appetite suppression and poor sleep quality.
* Chronic cardio exercise is a no-no.
* Any excess in alcohol, coffee or chocolate and I notice it.

I'm now 90% sure it's some form of Cholestasis but still want to get it confirmed by a medical professional.

Regarding coffee enemas... Doesn't shoving coffee grounds up one's arse sound kind of dangerous? I can only imagine what kind of heart arrhythmia this may trigger, what with all that caffeine being absorbed directly via the hepatic portal system. Yikes!

[dehbleh]

What is everyone's take on bile acid stimulators such as Artichoke Leaf Extract?

It seems like a double edge sword, seeing as everyday bile stimulators like coffee and large fatty meals potentially worsen my symptoms. I will report that on the first week of taking milk thistle I initially felt worse after each dose. It was a feeling of build up or pressure in my abdomen followed by sudden relief (see initial post). The medical literature I've read indicates that a "sludge" can build up in the bile ducts resulting in cholestasis. Perhaps the more I stimulate biliary system with supportive herbs such as Milk Thistle and Artichoke, the less stagnation will occur?

Hrrm... not sure.

[Alec]

Is there a possibility of vitamin K deficiency? I had a bunch of docs on one of my drives about vit K deficiency and liver problems but I can't find them. But I'm sure pubmed has most of them. Try searching pubmed for vitamin K and liver.

Edited by Alec, 22 January 2011 - 08:07 AM.

[motif]

this forum is waste of time.

[maxwatt]

this forum is waste of time.

Thank you for your contribution.

[tintinet]

This is a bit much. Even big pharma is comprised of people, and the dead patient is certainly lost also.

of course, that's why you're good for them as long you're sick and alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHXXTCc-IVg

I absolutely agree. My treatment for everything begins with healthy diet, copious exercise, and rest. Nonetheless, pharma hasn't created the epidemic health issues Maher mentions, it merely exploits them.

[dehbleh]

Well I was taking LEF's Super K formula (K1, K2 MK-4 & MK-7) for over two years whilst I battled with my symptoms. Since dropping it I haven't noticed anything different.

From what I can tell, bile is used to help facilitate fat absorption, including vitamins which are fat-soluble. It's possible that I could have been mildly deficient because of my bile flow problems.

One other thing worth mentioning... Since taking Milk Thistle I can tolerate Fish Oil again. This is definitely a supplement I'd want to take and am really pleased with this development.

Is there a possibility of vitamin K deficiency? I had a bunch of docs on one of my drives about vit K deficiency and liver problems but I can't find them. But I'm sure pubmed has most of them. Try searching pubmed for vitamin K and liver.

[Dorian Grey]

I'm a surgical technologist and I've seen a lot of gall bladders up close and personal... Some have large stones that will not pass through the bile duct, but most often I see small stones and heavy viscus "mud" in the sick gall bladders we take out.

The "build-up and release" symptoms in the original post would seem to indicate a sluggish liver / gall bladder that is full of small stones and mud, and anything that stimulates bile production and flow (like milk thistle/silymarin) could produce this effect which is most likely beneficial, so long as a large stone does not get stuck in the duct.

Regarding the coffee enemas... Coffee does have a remarkable effect on the liver, and portal circulation in the colon may be a more effective way of getting whatever it is in coffee that helps to the liver.

I buggered up my liver through chemical exposures at work combined with alcohol in the evening when I was young... PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine) is what did me the most good, and my liver is back in remarkable shape because of it. I highly recommend PPC as the most incredible liver tonic known to man, and encourage anyone with liver issues to look into it further.

Some interesting info on coffee and the liver: http://www.cosic.org...liver-cirrhosis

COFFEE AND LIVER CIRRHOSIS

Two studies, each on the Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program cohort in California, originally demonstrated that coffee drinking might protect against liver cirrhosis. In the first study, 59 cases of liver cirrhosis were diagnosed and it was shown that subjects who drank four or more cups of coffee per day had 80% less chance of developing liver cirrhosis than non-coffee drinkers (1). In the second study, it was reported that coffee drinkers had 23% less chance of dying from liver cirrhosis than non-coffee drinkers (2). A third cohort study of 51,306 Norwegian adults which diagnosed 53 case of liver cirrhosis showed inverse associations between total and alcoholic liver cirrhosis mortality and coffee consumption (3).

The results of these two prospective cohort studies have since been confirmed by the results of three retrospective case control studies. An Italian study of 115 cases of liver cirrhosis showed an inverse association between coffee consumption and disease risk as well as an inverse association of coffee consumption with alcohol-related cirrhosis risk (4). A larger Italian study of 274 cases and 458 controls reported an 84% lower risk of developing liver cirrhosis in subjects who drank four or more cups of coffee per day (5). Finally, a third Italian study of 101 cases and 1538 controls showed a 71% lower risk of developing liver cirrhosis in subjects drinking three or more cups of coffee (6).

The two striking features of the results of these six studies are their consistency and the very large reductions in disease risk observed.

A study of over 125,000 people (7) published in 2006 found a robust inverse relation of coffee drinking to risk of alcoholic cirrhosis, independent of sveral confounders. In contrast, this study found no statistically significant relation of coffee drinking and non-alcoholic cirrhosis.

References:

1. Klatsky, A.L. and Armstrong, M.A. American Journal of Epidemiology, 136, 1248-1257, 1992.

2. Klatsky, A.L. et al. Annals of Epidemiology, 3, 375-381, 1993.

3. Tverdal, A. and Skurtveit, S. Annals of Epidemiology, 13, 419-423, 2003.

4. Corrao, G. et al. European Journal of Epidemiology, 10, 657-664, 1994.

5. Corrao, G. et al. Annals of Epidemiology, 11, 458-465, 2001.

6. Gallus, S. et al. Annals of Epidemiology, 12, 202-205, 2002.

7. Klastsky,A.L. et al. Archives of Internal Medicine, Volume 166, 2006.

[Dorian Grey]

PPC is an incredible liver tonic: http://www.lef.org/m...0-report1a.html

"A baboon study (Lieber CS et al., 1994) confirmed earlier results (Lieber CS et al., 1990) showing that in the baboon, feeding of ethanol (a form of alcohol) results in hepatic fibrosis and cirrhosis even when associated with an adequate diet. This effect could be prevented by supplementing the diet with a 94-96% pure PPC preparation. None of the eight animals fed alcohol with PPC for up to 6.5 years had progression to fibrosis or cirrhosis as had 10 of 12 unsupplemented baboons, a highly significant difference. Another study (Ma X et al., 1996) revealed that PPC reduces hepatic fibrosis induced by either carbon tetrachloride or human albumin in rats, and that PPC not only prevents the development of fibrosis but accelerates the regression of pre-existing fibrosis. The study further suggested that the protective effect exerted by PPC against fibrosis is due, at least in part to increased collagen breakdown".

Also... Anything that can protect and even heal a liver from carbon tetrachloride poisoning should command serious respect:

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine prevents carbon tetrachloride-induced lipid peroxidation while it attenuates liver fibrosis
Journal of Hepatology, Volume 27, Issue 3, Pages 554-561
S.Aleynik

Abstract
Background/Aims: Polyenylphosphatidylcholine protects against alcoholic cirrhosis in the baboon. This study assesses whether the antifibrotic effect also pertains to a species other than the baboon and to agents other than alcohol.

Methods: Rats were injected with either CC14 (carbon tetrachloride) in peanut oil or peanut oil alone, and pair-fed nutritionally adequate liquid diets, with or without polyenylphosphatidylcholine. Other rats were injected with heterologous albumin instead of CC14.

To assess whether polyenylphosphatidylcholine is active on established fibrosis, rats were also given CC14 for 8 weeks, and then divided into two groups and pair-fed a diet with or without polyenylphosphatidylcholine.

Results: After 8 weeks of CC14, the animals were sacrificed; chromotrope aniline blue and Sirius red stains of liver revealed fibrosis or cirrhosis in animals given CC14 alone, whereas the effect was attenuated in the polyenylphosphatidylcholine-supplemented animals.

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine also attenuated liver fibrosis produced by the injection of heterologous albumin. CC14-induced liver fibrosis regressed more rapidly in polyenylphosphatidylcholine-treated animals than controls, both histologically and by measurement of collagen (p<0.05).

Conclusions: Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (a) attenuates hepatic fibrosis induced by CC14 or human albumin in rats; and (b) accelerates the regression of pre-existing fibrosis.

[hamishm00]

Polyunsaturated lecithin standardized for PC content is likely to be just as good as PPC for this.

LEF seems to have discontinued PPC - who knows why - probably because it was marketing hype to charge 3 times the price for lecithin and it just wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.