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Incredible Relief from Milk Thistle


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#31 Dorian Grey

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:21 PM

Polyunsaturated lecithin standardized for PC content is likely to be just as good as PPC for this.

LEF seems to have discontinued PPC - who knows why - probably because it was marketing hype to charge 3 times the price for lecithin and it just wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.


From what I gather, the polyunsaturated fraction of lecithin is what PPC actually is, and even triple strength lecithin contains only a small amount of its phosphatidylcholine in a polyunsaturated form.

PPC is expensive, but at less than $2/day for something that will fix your liver, the expense is relative. PPC saved my skin, and I literally thank God every time I pop one of those expensive little pills.

Viagra is $20/dose and I don't sweat that either... I like stuff that really works!

#32 hamishm00

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:36 PM

Polyunsaturated lecithin standardized for PC content is likely to be just as good as PPC for this.

LEF seems to have discontinued PPC - who knows why - probably because it was marketing hype to charge 3 times the price for lecithin and it just wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.


From what I gather, the polyunsaturated fraction of lecithin is what PPC actually is, and even triple strength lecithin contains only a small amount of its phosphatidylcholine in a polyunsaturated form.

PPC is expensive, but at less than $2/day for something that will fix your liver, the expense is relative. PPC saved my skin, and I literally thank God every time I pop one of those expensive little pills.

Viagra is $20/dose and I don't sweat that either... I like stuff that really works!


I think it's always been a scam...LEF have discontinued the product.

For a discussion on what PPC is see discussion here

Would welcome any other thoughts of members on this.

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#33 hamishm00

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:44 PM

triple strength lecithin contains only a small amount of its phosphatidylcholine in a polyunsaturated form.


Here is the price and quantity comparison (with figures from 2008) from that post I referenced above which refutes your statement:

"Quick price comparison

NOW Triple Strength Lecithin

Price: $11.18
Total amount of polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine: 84 g
Price per gram of PC: $0.13

LEF Hepatopro

Price: $33.62
Total amount of polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine: 54 g
Price per gram of PC: $0.62"

#34 Dorian Grey

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:16 PM

The plot thickens!

The quote states NOW's triple strength lecithin contains polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine @ 84g, but I don't see the detail at the NOW page. It says polyunsaturated fat content of daily dose is 2g, but it does not state the PC itself is in a polyunsaturated form.

PhosChol says PPC is around 50% DLPC or dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine, which is the polyunsaturated form of PC that contains the hepatoprotective qualities. http://www.phoschol....about_phoschol/

The doctors who did the animal studies that showed the remarkable properties of phospholipids all seem to use PPC. Haven't seen any studies that showed anything like these results with lecithin, even triple strength.

What we need to learn now is... Is DLPC really the effective phospholipid fraction, and how much of this is in lecithin compared to PPC?

Back in the 70s Lecithin was to be the new fountain of youth supplement, but when they started doing scientific studies with lecithin, it seemed to fall flat on any dramatic effects. Now that they are working with PPC science is beginning to show phospholipids really do have some magical properties.

Edited by synesthesia, 30 January 2011 - 07:56 PM.


#35 Dorian Grey

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:18 PM

Dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine Is Responsible for the Beneficial Effects of Polyenylphosphatidylcholine on Ethanol-Induced Mitochondrial Injury in Rats*1

Khursheed P. Navder and Charles S. Lieber2
Alcohol Research and Treatment Center, Bronx Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, New York, 10468
Nutrition and Food Science in Urban Public Health Program, Hunter College of City University of New York, New York, New York, 10010
Received 31 January 2002. Available online 5 March 2002.
Abstract
Chronic ethanol consumption depletes phosphatidylcholines (PC) in membranes and hepatic mitochondria are an early target of this toxicity. Our previous studies showed that soybean-derived polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC), attenuated mitochondrial liver injury. Since dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine (DLPC) is the major component of PPC, we assessed whether it is responsible for the protection of PPC. Forty-two male rats were fed the following liquid diets for 8 weeks: Control; Control with DLPC (1.5 g/1000 Calories (Cal); Alcohol (36% of Cal); Alcohol with DLPC (1.5 g/1000 Cal) and Alcohol with PPC (3 g/1000 Cal). As expected, ethanol feeding diminished the capacity of hepatic mitochondria to oxidize glutamate and palmitoyl-1-carnitine, and also decreased the activity of mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase. These effects were equally prevented by either PPC or DLPC. In conclusion, DLPC fully reproduced PPC's protective action and may be effective in the prevention or delay of more severe liver damage.
Author Keywords: mitochondria; ethanol; dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine; polyenylphosphatidylcholine

*1 Source of support: NIH grant AA11115, Department of Veterans Affairs, the Kingsbridge Research Foundation, and PSC-CUNY Research Award 62301-0031.

#36 Dorian Grey

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:40 PM

More on the difference between lecithin and PPC here: http://forum.bodybui...php?t=118636021

Ripped the following from M&M:

Compound N is a very special highly pure derivative of PC called PPC (Polyenylphosphatidylcholine) containing up to 52% DLPC (Dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine) which researchers have confirmed is the active compound responsible for all if not most of PPC's benefits.

In many countries it is a drug called Lipostabil or Essentiale used for various serious liver conditions and has been in clinical use for decades.
In the US it goes by PhosChol or simply PPC for short. There are little if any research showing any benefits of lecithin or regular PC in large part due to displacement by other phospholipids much like taking a bunch of other fats with CLA will reduce it's effectiveness or like eating a pound of eggs to get AA but also getting a bunch of other fats and cholesterol as well.

In over fifty years of use, and in thousands of animal and clinical studies, PPC has been proven safe and reliable.

Over 30 million daily doses of PhosChol have been sold worldwide, and according to a rough estimation a total of 350 million daily doses of PPC (used in a similar European product) were sold in Germany between 1954 and 2000 and approximately 600 million daily doses globally.

There are no studies showing any of other phospholipids (phosphatidyl inositol, phosphatidylethanolamine, and phosphatidic acid) present in lecithin are responsible for any of PPC's benefits aside from perhaps some being converted into PC in small amounts through methylation.

Most importantly is PPC (of which 52% is DLPC) replaces regular PC in cell membranes which is a main factor in it's benefits.


2.4 Pharmacokinetics
The phospholipids reaching the organism by the way of EPL differ from endogenous phosphatidylcholines by their fatty acid pattern. 1,2-
dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine, the main active ingredient, is usually not present in the body. Therefore, in pharmacokinetic investigations radioactively labelled 1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine was used, which can be obtained by synthetic or semisynthetic ways. In order to find an answer to the questions of distribution and excretion, different isotopes (32P, 3H, 14C) and sometimes multiple labels, at various molecular components were applied.

Examination of lipoproteins revealed that the specific activity of polyenylphosphatidylcholine in HDL was 2 to 6 times higher than in apo-Bcontaining
lipoproteins, and up to 20 times that of red blood cells or total blood. Thus, in man, EPL is also incorporated preferentially into the HDL fraction. According to Zierenberg et al. (766, 768) "essential" phospholipids are exchanged for phospholipids of membranes and lipoproteins.


3.2 Membrane Fluidity and EPL
The main active ingredient in EPL is 1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidyicholine, which is present to about 52 % of the applied mixture of phosphatidylcholine
molecules (128). 1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine is not physiologically present in the human body. Endogenous phospholipids are substituted by
"essential" phospholipids, especially by the 1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine, which are incorporated in all membrane-containing fractions
(404, 405).

This means that the phosphatidylcholine molecules in the membranes with a saturated fatty acid at position 1 (718) are partly exchanged against those with
a linoleic acid or a linolenic acid at this position; additionally, the amount of phosphatidylchoIine molecules with a linoleic acid at position 2 is increased
(524). In total the number of double-bonds in the group of phosphatidylcholine molecules in the membrane increases. One of the important consequences of such a substitution of body-own phospholipids by these highly unsaturated phosphatidylcholines is a change of
membrane fluidity.

3.7 EPL, Carrier of Polyunsaturated Fatty Acid and of Choline
Due to its high amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids (especially linoleic acid and linolenic acid in the phosphatidylcholine molecules (404)) EPL is a
splendid supplier of eicosanoid precursors (318, 443, 484, 520, 755). Due to the substitution of body-own phospholipids in the membrane against EPL,
the pool of these precursors is increased, which the organism uses on demand (486).

The Japanese research team of K. Shirai et al. (650) used dipalmitoylphosphatidylcholine (DPPC) and polyenylphosphatidylcholine (EPL; Lipostabil) vesicles to investigate the intensity of the release of 3Hcholesterol from macrophages isolated from the peritoneum of rats. Due to their lower microviscosity and their greater fluidity, the capacity of polyenylphosphatidylcholine vesicles to remove cholesterol from the macrophages after 2 and 6 hours of incubation was clearly superior to DPPC vesicles.

- Polyenylphosphatidylcholine micelles/liposomes are more efficient than other PC-particles as to forming complexes with cholesterol. The plasma clearance of these PC-particles, which is usually fast, appears to be slowed down when binding to apo A1 or apo HDL.


According to G.Assmann et al. (28) who investigated different phosphatidylcholines, including dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine (tab. 36), the mechanisms of LCAT activation remain to be established. In their opinion the formation of an LCAT/substrate complex and hence cholesterol esterification are faciliated by an increased fluidity of the PC substrate due to unsaturated fatty acid chains in the 1- and 2-position of the molecule, as present in 1,2-dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine. <%Tab. 38: Presentation of the relative reaction rate of purified LCAT with phosphatidylcholine substrates which contain identical fatty acids in 1- and 2- position The highest transacylation rates were seen with 1,2- dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine..


Different forms of PC make a difference.


Composition:

Highly purified Essential Phospholipids (EPL) or Polyunsaturated Phosphatidylcholine / Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) (active principle: diglyceride esters of cholinephosphoric acid of natural origin, with excess of unsaturated fatty acids, predominantly linoleic acid [approximately 70%] with 1,2- dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine [(DLPC) up to 52%], linolenic acid and oleic acid).

Approximately 15 kg of soya beans are required to obtain a daily dose of PPC 1.8 grams

About 3.18 kg equals a TB of lecithin granules.

#37 J. Galt

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 05:25 AM

The phospholipid bound form "Siliphos" is apparently several times more bioavailable. Vita cost and Swanson both carry it for about $15.

#38 maxwatt

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 03:54 PM

An injectable form is a recognized antidote to amanita mushroom poisoning: silibinin dihydrogen disuccinate disodium (trade name Legalon SIL).

#39 dehbleh

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 05:31 AM

OK !

Time for an update:

Since my last post I've continued to battle with this problem and neither Milk Thistle or Curcumin have been the proven to be as helpful as I first believed them to be. The relief effect has diminished over time.

But there is good news. I decided to give Taurine a go, citing some promising anecdotes regarding digestion and bile flow (on these forums actually). Taurine alone (without any other supplements) works wonders for me. I only need 1 gram a day to provide noticeable benefits. I'm going to keep using Taurine and will report back in a couple of weeks. It is also my intention to try PPC shortly and report on any noticeable benefits (thanks synesthesi).

As I've mentioned previously, my symptoms are made considerably worse by strenous exercise. I stumbled upon the following dated journal which may support this observation.

Impairment of bile secretion induced by exhaustive exercise in the rat. Protective effects of S-adenosyl-L-methionine.

Abstract
The effects of strenuous exercise on the mechanisms of bile formation were studied in rats. Animals (n = 8) were exercised to exhaustion in a rodent treadmill at a speed of 24 m/min and a 12% slope. Hepatic glutathione concentration was significantly reduced (-40%) and liver malondialdehyde content significantly increased (+37%) when compared to sedentary controls (n = 6). Both serum alkaline phosphatase level and bile acid concentration were significantly higher in runners (+81% and +85%). Bile flow and the biliary secretion of bile acids were significantly reduced both in basal conditions and following an i.v. taurocholate infusion (0.5 mumol/min/100 g body wt). Biliary glutathione secretion was also significantly decreased following exercise. Cholestasis was caused by an impairment of both bile acid-dependent (BADF) and bile acid-independent fraction (BAIF) of bile flow (-25% and -29% respectively). Exercise caused a delay in the peak appearance time and a reduced biliary secretion of horseradish peroxidase, suggesting alterations in the functional integrity of the cytoskeleton. To test the protective effects of S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAMe), rats received the drug for ten days at a daily dose of 8 mg/kg i.p. SAMe administration prevented hepatic glutathione depletion due to exercise, normalizing both bile flow and bile acid as well as glutathione secretion. Our results suggest that both glutathione depletion and alterations in fluidity and composition of hepatocyte membranes could contribute to the development of exercise-induced cholestasis.

PMID: 8325715 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Pity I can't take SAMe due to the mania it gives me :-/

Edited by dehbleh, 12 April 2011 - 05:34 AM.


#40 Lufega

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 04:08 PM

Have you tried Taurine ? It's needed to make most of the bile salts.

#41 dehbleh

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 10:34 AM

Have you tried Taurine ? It's needed to make most of the bile salts.


Please, re-read my post! :-)

Taurine has made a modest improvement in my condition.

#42 APBT

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 09:39 PM

Polyunsaturated lecithin standardized for PC content is likely to be just as good as PPC for this.

LEF seems to have discontinued PPC - who knows why - probably because it was marketing hype to charge 3 times the price for lecithin and it just wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

It is expensive, but it's currently available http://www.lef.org/V...dylcholine.html

#43 Kevnzworld

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:40 PM

LEF's product is 900mg of PPC. Most PC products are 1000 mg of lecithin , providing 400 mg of PC. Most of the studies that have shown hepatic benefit use the PPC form. Given that the recommendation is for 1800+ mg daily, it's alot easier to take 2 vs 5 gel caps.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 24 July 2012 - 10:45 PM.


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#44 AlexCanada

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:23 AM

Does anyone know why Milk Thistle tincture gives me neck pulsing sensations? Is it related to the lympthatic system?   Pretty uncomfortable sensations as if my neck feels thicker even though it obviously isn't. 


Edited by AlexCanada, 18 February 2018 - 08:24 AM.





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