10 replies to this topic

[pd9200]

I am not a scientist to prove it but I still think idea is interesting and worth of discussion.

I think that the brain is best computer and human body or animal body is the best laboratory that we can get.
We are still very primitive in understanding how systems work.

I know we know a lot about human body and we know a lot about the hardware.
We know how cells work, how human body works in the hardware way.


But as I see it problem to aging is not in hardware it is in software. We are programed to die.
Let me put analogy. We can understand every part of computer every
microchip all the hardware but we still do not know nothing.

To understand we must understand software. We must understand impulses and how brain function as software.
Brain is information processor and much much more.
What is stored inside and how is information handled is the most important question.


I know that most of information is blocked and we have no access to control it.
Maybe out body have a capability to manipulate genes. Maybe we do not need clumsy outside systems.
We are in stone age compared to some body systems.


If we can understand how is information handled and how can we connect to the brain.
Studying nerve impulses and the information behind nerve signals must be interesting subject.
I have not found any good books about that. Does somebody know any good book on that subject.

The are a lot of material describing the hardware but little material with the meaning(language) of impulses.
What is the language of nerve impulses? How is information handled, what protocols are used?


Imagine that we can access our brain and communicate with it.
I am not talking about spiritaul mambo jumbo, but imagine we build software that
connects with brain and with it we will be able to control every mechanism inside the body.


Maybe we can be able to access info inside the brain or put info inside in fast way. Possibilities are endless.

We can give instructions brain and than brain controls the body that we are not in control.........

[Marios Kyriazis]

Your raise several points, not all relevant. For example, we do know a lot about how the brain works, its contents, signalling, and neuron to neuron communication details. There has been some progress with artificially connecting to live neurons and manipulating these in order to cause a physical action elsewhere in the body.

However, I don't think that the human brain is just like a computer and this is a mistake many people do when thinking about the analogy. The brain has much more abstract capabilities, that cannot be explained by conventional computer knowledge.

[niner]

The brain has much more abstract capabilities, that cannot be explained by conventional computer knowledge.

What are some examples of these capabilities? Is it possible that they are simply emergent properties of neurons, once the neurons are present in very large numbers and are heavily interconnected?

[pd9200]

However, I don't think that the human brain is just like a computer and this is a mistake many people do when thinking about the analogy. The brain has much more abstract capabilities, that cannot be explained by conventional computer knowledge.

Abstraction is what computers do.
We have interface and limited access to our resources.
On computer you have interface like and you manipulate data with operating system.
Interface on computer is limited, a lot of things is hidden from you.

When you press a button on a graphical interface there is a lot behind and hidden from you. That is abstraction.
Same concept is used in programing languages. It is called poliformism. You hide functionality behind interface and user of class do not have to understand the logic behind class interface.

I thing our brain work in the same way.
You move the arm by your highly sophisticated interface.
The mechanism behind understand and obeys your command and execute it. You have no awareness of that it is hidden from you and not part of your interface.

We get a lot of data in our had by seeing hearing tasting...
but a lot of data is hidden by our interface.
We have very limited control.

Maybe there is a way we can reprogram our own interface or for a start use brain for calculating processes.
What language brain use to store and manipulate information. There must be some organised way there must be some system behind.

We see information visualy but that is only representation of actual data by our interface but behind the scenes must complicated highly powerful
information system.

[pd9200]

Is it possible that they are simply emergent properties of neurons, once the neurons are present in very large numbers and are heavily interconnected

That bathers me a lot. Computers harware is build with trasistors anre they are heavily interconnected.
But what they produce? Nothing.

Simply by large numbers you do not get nothing. You need system and information behind.
Software is what brings computer to start doing somethig.

How does software of brain function.
How it is writen. Information canot be created from nothing. I do not know machine that is capable of reprograming itself and produce bether information and evolve.
There is no evolution in information. Maybe there is but I do not know it. I never saw a system that can change and produce new information
then correct it self and reprogram itself.
All software human build all AI is just mechanical algoritms nothing more.

[Marios Kyriazis]

The brain has much more abstract capabilities, that cannot be explained by conventional computer knowledge.

What are some examples of these capabilities? Is it possible that they are simply emergent properties of neurons, once the neurons are present in very large numbers and are heavily interconnected?

Of course the connection of many neurons will lead to emergent properties, but this is not enough for mimicking human awareness/consciousness using existing digital approaches.

According to some physicists such as Roger Penrose, H. Fröhlich, and S.R. Hameroff, who suggested the Orc-Or model (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR) human consciousness can be explained by post-quantum physics and specifically by bio-physical events linking neuron microtubules and DNA acting as channels that create a fourth-dimensional time/space, and where Platonic values (Plato’s abstract realm of intellectual patterns –theory of forms) are embedded.

This means that even if artificial intelligence evolves to become highly sophisticated, it will not reach the intellectual power of the human brain, because it is built upon conventional artificial neural networks.

For full details about the issue (conventional vs quantum computers) see:
http://www.quantumco...g/overview.html

although it has been criticised by others.

[babcock]

So your title may be off a little bit here. The human brain is definitely not the best computer. A formal definition of a computer is something that takes and stores input, runs calculations, and provides a useful output. There are many computers that can perform these functions faster than a human brain.

I (and most people) get what you mean though. A better title might be "Human brain is the best reasoner". This would help you make better conclusions when making your point.

Reasoning ability is why computers are not "smarter" than humans. Reason defined is the mental faculty possessed in humans that is capable of making conclusions based on assumptions or premises. Currently, it is quite difficult (or even impossible) to parody this faculty in software. There are many attempts out there to come up with a viable way to make software make conclusions but being that limits always need to be defined in software there is no way to viably allow a piece of software to come to a conclusion. Study of software neural networks has introduced a limited "reasoning" ability but still you find that your "reasoning" ability is still constrained by the size of your neural network.

In reality, this shortfall is also due to the fact that we don't fully grasp how we are able to arrive at a conclusion. It seems natural and instinctive to us. Perhaps quantum computing will allow us to devise a piece of software that is capable of reasoning, but I personally think a lot of people put a lot of stock into quantum computing because they aren't quite sure of what it will do for them. Quantum computing current promises insanely faster hardware speeds. But hardware speed isn't what is currently constraining AI. A faster speed won't give your software reasoning ability, that has to be based on what reason is, so in conclusion we need to ultimately understand how our brains "reason".

[pd9200]

So your title may be off a little bit here. The human brain is definitely not the best computer. A formal definition of a computer is something that takes and stores input, runs calculations, and provides a useful output. There are many computers that can perform these functions faster than a human brain.

I (and most people) get what you mean though. A better title might be "Human brain is the best reasoner". This would help you make better conclusions when making your point.

Are you sure computers are faster. I am not.
I think brains are bether in pure CPU power and data storage. I think computers are rubish compared to brains.
Power is hidden behind outdated interface.

What are calculations. We think so abstract for us calculations is learned process and when we calculate we do calculation in abstract way.
We calculate simbolicly. Even image recognishn takes a lot of CPU power.
Brains do not know what numbers are ,only our conscines(interface) do.

Test conditions are not fair when we compared brains and computer in such way.
It is the same as you will compare aritmetic on bit level and aritmetic on very hight level or even by image recognition.
The conditions are not the same.
Old rubbish will beat the modern one in such test.

Can you image how strong are brains. You see picture and you recognise objects in moment. That is a costly operation.

We calculate by what we know by rules we had learned.
Our interface is outdated and is design for survival and reproduction not for calculation. That is why we are slow not because brain do not have power.

With computer you can calculate in very hight abstract matter where a lot of resources is used or you can calculate at bit level.
Imagine computer calculate by recoginsing digical image and than perform calculation by rules in the way human do. That will take much more resource and computer power.

[firespin]

The brain has much more abstract capabilities, that cannot be explained by conventional computer knowledge.

What are some examples of these capabilities? Is it possible that they are simply emergent properties of neurons, once the neurons are present in very large numbers and are heavily interconnected?

Of course the connection of many neurons will lead to emergent properties, but this is not enough for mimicking human awareness/consciousness using existing digital approaches.

According to some physicists such as Roger Penrose, H. Fröhlich, and S.R. Hameroff, who suggested the Orc-Or model (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR) human consciousness can be explained by post-quantum physics and specifically by bio-physical events linking neuron microtubules and DNA acting as channels that create a fourth-dimensional time/space, and where Platonic values (Plato’s abstract realm of intellectual patterns –theory of forms) are embedded.

This means that even if artificial intelligence evolves to become highly sophisticated, it will not reach the intellectual power of the human brain, because it is built upon conventional artificial neural networks.

For full details about the issue (conventional vs quantum computers) see:
http://www.quantumco...g/overview.html

although it has been criticised by others.

It seems his theory is not widely accepted, because there is no evidence to suggest that he is right. However the mind works, anything that exist can be duplicated and created, or it wouldn't be able to exist in the first place.

Edited by firespin, 23 January 2011 - 12:30 AM.

[babcock]

So your title may be off a little bit here. The human brain is definitely not the best computer. A formal definition of a computer is something that takes and stores input, runs calculations, and provides a useful output. There are many computers that can perform these functions faster than a human brain.

I (and most people) get what you mean though. A better title might be "Human brain is the best reasoner". This would help you make better conclusions when making your point.

Are you sure computers are faster. I am not.
I think brains are bether in pure CPU power and data storage. I think computers are rubish compared to brains.
Power is hidden behind outdated interface.

Yes I am sure, Multiply 6234 by 7127 in your head. A computer can do this calculation nearly instantly. I doubt you can beat a computer in calculating this.

No, brains are not better in pure CPU power and data storage. Try to quote a movie from beginning to end. I bet you can't, this is a rudimentary operation for a computer. A computer's memory can store far more data far more precisely than your brain can.

I also disagree with your "outdated interface" argument. Our human interface is what gives us a leg up on computers. Being that we are a sensory network tied into a processing system we are constantly subconsciously making observations about our environment and storing data for future reference. A computer does not do this unless it is specifically designed to.

This all ties into the point I was trying to make about reasoning. We might not be able to make a calculation as fast as a computer but if we had to make a snap decision like "Could a fish survive in this environment?" we could easily predict if a fish would be able to live where we currently are because A. we know the environment fish can survive in B. we are observers of our current environment and c. we can make assumptions without calculating. Unless a computer is specifically designed to judge living environments for fish, it would not be able to make the prediction.

[pd9200]

No, brains are not better in pure CPU power and data storage. Try to quote a movie from beginning to end. I bet you can't, this is a rudimentary operation for a computer. A computer's memory can store far more data far more precisely than your brain can.

Yes I can't but brains can that is what I am trying to say. Information is stored subconsiously. I have no access because it is hidden form me.
Maybe there is a technic like hypnosis where we can get that information.
Do you have access about your stomack functions? They work automaticly or defence against desease.
Do you know how much CPU power and memory must be available to control that kind of complex system.

we can make assumptions without calculating

Do we actualy know what what is happening behind scenes in our head.
You make fast assumptions? But what is fast asumption?
It is a result of many calculations and memory access and
it happen in a moment we are not aware of that.