22 replies to this topic

[vortexentity]

I was wondering how many of the Immortalist group are taking an HGH or Somatropin injectable solution.

I have been talking to my friend Lazarus Long for many years about this and he is likely one of the persons who has been on the therapy longer than anyone now alive. I am only 41 but my human growth hormone level is low enough that I am starting this therapy myself now. I really do not like needles but it is the only way to take it that is proven effective in raising your body level of this important hormone.

Lazarus's results are quite obvious to everyone as he is 73 years old and is able to defeat much younger men in racketball all the time. He is also very quick and strong for his age. He is on several other important nutrient items and some nootropics but he claims he has had the most effect against aging by injections of HGH / Somatropin.

I tried percursors and sublingual sprays for many years with very limited if any success in slowing the signs of aging. Now that I am on this therapy I am curious how many in this group are also taking this as part of their anti-aging regime.

Thanks for participating in this inquirey.

[nootropi]

If I were you I would not take any supplemental HGH. It may even accelerate aging.

[vortexentity]

How do you come by that opinion Nootropi? My research has indicated to me that HGH or recombinant GH levels are way down when we are over 40. We are producing less than half the amount we produced at 20.

Injection of HGH has increased the lean body mass increased the size of organs that had been reduced in mass and also lowered body fat and increased cognative function in persons on this treatment for prologed periods.

You say it may accelerate aging. I would be interested in just how you came to this conclusion. I have seen not only research reports but have known people on the therapy for over half a decade and they are improved over what they would have looked like without this therapy.

[jack42]

I am 64 tears old and injected 1IU of HGH for about 19 months and the only tangable things I noticed was a weight gain from water retention, pain/weekness in left arm and elbow, for about 2 to 3 weeks before it went away.
Also sleep was much deeper for a few months and then back to normal.

I made no other change in my diet or supplements to see if I could credit any
change to the HGH, but water retention was the only long lasting noticable effect.

I had planned on injecting for 2 years as a "test" for positive results, but my last shipment from China, was seized in US Customs. So "test" on hold for now.

[Michael]

All:

How do you come by that opinion [that growth hormone accelerates aging] Nootropi?

There is whacks of evidence for this, which is pretty much dogma amongst biogerontologists these days. 4 distinct mutations that inhibit GH signaling -- by reducing its production or dampening its signal transduction -- lead to retarded aging and extended lifespan in mice; humans with naturally high GH levels (let alone augmented levels) suffer more total mortality and prostate cancers, while peoplw with congenitally low GH corrected by GH ingections have increased risk of stomach cancer compared with other such people not receiving it; CR, the only currently-available anti-aging intervention, causes GH signaling (mediated via IGF-1) to plummet in youth (but slows their rate of decline as part of its general preservation of functionality, so that old CR animals' levels are actually somewhat higher than old ALers').

You might check out (1), or this pop press piece:

http://www.iht.com/a...les/534574.html

My research has indicated to me that HGH or recombinant GH levels are way down when we are over 40. We are producing less than half the amount we produced at 20.

That tells you that aging causes a reduction in GH levels; it doesn't tell you what causal impact GH has on aging.

Injection of HGH has increased the lean body mass increased the size of organs that had been reduced in mass and also lowered body fat

But so do xenobiotic anabolic steroids. They aren't anti-aging drugs wink.gif. Also note that the body composition gains are not accompanied by corresponding increases in strength (eg. (2)).

and increased cognative function in persons on this treatment for prologed periods.

I don't believe that there's any evidence for this, aside from anecdotes (which are not evidence) reported by A4M-type pseudoscientist snake-oil hucksters and their unfortunate patients. Also, people who get put on GH by "anti-aging" docs are usually given diet, exercise, & supplement regimens; this renders any apparent results of GH therapy badly confounded.

You say it may accelerate aging. I would be interested in just how you came to this conclusion. I have seen not only research reports but have known people on the therapy for over half a decade and they are improved over what they would have looked like without this therapy.

By definition, what they would've looked like without therapy is unknown -- that's why we run controlled trials. Thus far, the results (eg (2)) have not supported the hype (tho' to be fair, these trials have not taken the care taken by the better GH-administering docs, who titrate the dose and other aspects of the regimen more carefully).

-Michael

1: Longo VD, Finch CE.
Evolutionary medicine: from dwarf model systems to healthy centenarians?
Science. 2003 Feb 28;299(5611):1342-6. Review.
PMID: 12610293 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Blackman MR, Sorkin JD, Munzer T, Bellantoni MF, Busby-Whitehead J, Stevens
TE, Jayme J, O'Connor KG, Christmas C, Tobin JD, Stewart KJ, Cottrell E, St
Clair C, Pabst KM, Harman SM.
Growth hormone and sex steroid administration in healthy aged women and men: a
randomized controlled trial.
JAMA. 2002 Nov 13;288(18):2282-92.
PMID: 12425705 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by Michael, 30 November 2004 - 02:55 AM.

[vortexentity]

Hi jack42.

Did you age 3 years this year or did you miss type your age in this post or your first post on imminst? The reason I ask is in your first post you said you are 61 and in this your third post this one you say you are now 64.

Oh well, thanks for posting anyway even if your age changes from post to post.

Your experience is not typical but I might suggest that you obtain HGH from Eli Lilly as it is the real thing. I would not trust some powder from china for a direct injection into my body personally unless I tested it first.

Also I would add that you might not notice much of anything from HGH other then increased lean body mass at your age. Not something easy to guage really. I do not expect miricles either but if it can extend my useful life it is worthwhile to me. [thumb]

[vortexentity]

I can tell you that Lazarus is on a type of modified Atkins diet. He plays racketball at least 2 times per week. He often will beat guys that are in their 30s or 40s most of the time.

He thinks he would be dead now if he did not start on HGH injections when he was 59. At 73 now he looks and says he feels better than when he was 59 in fact.

I guess we shall see if he makes it another 14 years on the HGH. Most of the male members of his family were gone by their late 50s or early 60s so he is outside of the average for his family so far.

[jack42]

HI Vortexentity
I did miss type my age, it is 62, had a birthday in Oct. Need to change my profile and learn to type better.

I started out on Lilly HGH but after 4 months switched to China HGH due to cost.
I have been on a low carb diet for several years with moderate exercise and was looking for some improvement in overall long term health. It did not make me want to jump up and go play racketball, reduce the ringing in my right ear, reduce the hearing loss in my left ear nor reduce my need for glasses. Donot know if it would have helped any of these but though I would try.

[vortexentity]

jack42,
are you a veteran? I ask because you mention tinnitus symptoms. Lazarus is a war vet and has the same problem. No help from HGH on this I am afraid. It has helped him to heal some rather bad scar tissue from a burn on his leg. It has helped him to not need glasses as much but there are things much better for that.

NAC or N-Acetly-Carnosine comes to mind. Several companies are making products that include this in their preparation. I suggest you do a search for that term. Several people have reported improved eyesight after a few months of using NAC.

Lazarus also includes about a gram of Taurine in his night water which also includes Water OZ mineral supplement.

[jack42]

Vortexenity
I am a veteran, but spent my time on Okinawa, some of it in a very noisy com center. Lots of the old style teletype equip banging away.

Have thought about the NAC, but have not got around to trying it. I am looking into the Russian eye drops that IAS sells but have not decided yet, want them to be out and used for a while and see what is reported on the sucess or problems.
Can't hear good is bad enough but sure do want to continue to see, even with glasses/contacts.

[scottl]

Vortexentity,

It is apples and oranges, but if you are serious enough about your health to consider growth hormone, you might want to optimize your supplement regimen (feel free to PM me) and diet (which I also have some non-CR thoughts on).

Scott

[scottl]

Re: eyedrops

To my knowledge the eyedrops (NAC, carnosine...) are reported to prevent or possibly treat cataracts. Do you know if the people's eyesight who has improved had cataracts, or are the drops really improving nearsightedness/farsightedness?

Re: ringing in the ears:

Some people improve on ginko. Apparently the success rate is not great, on the other hand, the risk is so low and it is not expensive, so there is little lost.

Edited by scottl, 29 November 2004 - 05:41 AM.

[olaf.larsson]

Take HGH and you will die faster rather than live longer. One obvious thing which is bad for you inte the long term is that HGH makes your cells divide faster and shortens your telomeres faster. You feel better at the moment, after taking HGH, you sure do...

[Michael]

All:

Indeed animal studies where growth hormone (GH) or insulin like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) hormones or their receptors are down-modulated have shown a definite increase in lifespan leading one to conclude that these hormones and particularly any form of supplementation may decrease lifespan.

The paradox: caloric restriction, or any regimen that lowers blood glucose levels causes an increase in GH secretion by the anterior pituitary, which then acts to induce secretion of IGF-1 from a number of tissues, most notably the liver. It is IGF-1 that then acts on most cells of the body. The secretion of GH is pulsatile, meaning it comes in bursts, whereas the secretion of IGF-1 is more steady.

This isn't really a paradox, because the key is that IGF-1 mediated GH signaling is reduced by CR, even though integrated GH levels are increased. This is because IGF-1 is dramatically reduced under CR despite the elevations in GH. Insulin plays a permissive role in the liver's formation of IGF-1, and also suppresses IGF binding protein-1 (IGFBP-1) which inactivates it. Insulin levels are slashed by CR, resulting in much lower IGF-1 levels (1,2) and still further lower levels of IGF-1 signaling due to elevated IGFBP-1 (2,3).

So why would the same increase in GH that when induced by CR be life extending whilst studies showing that removing components from the GH signaling axis also extend lifespan? Because of the other important effect of CR - low blood glucose levels both in the bloodstream and in the cell.

While CR animals likely don't suffer intracellular hyperglycemia, it is not likely that they have unusually low intracellular glucose: specific metabolic rate is unaltered by CR based on existing evidence ((4-6) -- NB that the authors of (4) misinterpret their own data; but cf (7-9) for reasons that these data may not give the true picture; Roger McCarter may yet provide a definitive answer to this ambiguity (10)).

So the moral of the story is that GH supplementation is not enough

I would say that the moral of the story is that GH supplementation is suicidal, unless you're on CR -- in which the impact may be reduced. But see (11), in which "Infusion of either GH or IGF-1 via osmotic minipumps restored in situ and in vitro CRNK-16 [leukemia] cell proliferation in [CR] rats up to rates measured in AL-treated rats."

Yes, a paradox, perhaps:

Not so much a paradox, as "antagonistic pleiotrophy."

-Michael

1: Sonntag WE, Lynch CD, Cefalu WT, Ingram RL, Bennett SA, Thornton PL, Khan
AS.
Pleiotropic effects of growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1 on
biological aging: inferences from moderate caloric-restricted animals.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1999 Dec;54(12):B521-38. Review.
PMID: 10647962 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Nemet D, Connolly PH, Pontello-Pescatello AM, Rose-Gottron C, Larson JK,
Galassetti P, Cooper DM.
Negative energy balance plays a major role in the IGF-I response to exercise
training.
J Appl Physiol. 2004 Jan;96(1):276-82. Epub 2003 Aug 29.
PMID: 12949013 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Busby WH, Snyder DK, Clemmons DR.
Radioimmunoassay of a 26,000-dalton plasma insulin-like growth factor-binding
protein: control by nutritional variables.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Dec;67(6):1225-30.
PMID: 2461386 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. McCarter R, Masoro EJ, Yu BP. Does food restriction retard aging by reducing the metabolic rate? Am J Physiol. 1985 Apr;248(4 Pt 1):E488-90. PMID: 3157325; UI: 85172210

5. McCarter RJ, McGee JR. Transient reduction of metabolic rate by food restriction. Am J Physiol. 1989 Aug;257(2 Pt 1):E175-9. PMID: 2764100; UI: 89349360

6. Greenberg JA, Boozer CN.
Metabolic mass, metabolic rate, caloric restriction, and aging in male Fischer 344 rats.
Mech Ageing Dev. 2000 Jan 24;113(1):37-48.
PMID: 10708248 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

7. Ramsey JJ, Harper ME, Weindruch R.
Restriction of energy intake, energy expenditure, and aging.
Free Radic Biol Med. 2000 Nov 15;29(10):946-68. Review.
PMID: 11084284 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

8. Gallagher D, Heshka S, Heymsfield SB.
Dubious assumptions underlying the adjustment of metabolic rates for changes in fat-free mass.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Jul;88(7):3454; author reply 3454-5. No abstract available.
PMID: 12843204 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

9. Blanc S, Schoeller D, Kemnitz J, Weindruch R, Colman R, Newton W, Wink K, Baum S, Ramsey J.
Energy expenditure of rhesus monkeys subjected to 11 years of dietary restriction.
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10. http://ric.uthscsa.e...oesCRAlter.html

11: Hursting SD, Switzer BR, French JE, Kari FW.
The growth hormone: insulin-like growth factor 1 axis is a mediator of diet
restriction-induced inhibition of mononuclear cell leukemia in Fischer rats.
Cancer Res. 1993 Jun 15;53(12):2750-7.
PMID: 8389243 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by Michael, 30 November 2004 - 03:44 AM.

[vortexentity]

I will continue with my 1IU dose just the same. I see my friend Lazarus taking it for 14 years and he is certain he would be dead by now if he did not start taking it at 59.

My family has kind of short lived men. Most do not live to see 60 in fact. At only 41 and I am one of the oldest men in my family. I have one uncle who is 56 and has been on special doctor prescribed diets for years and using conventional medicine. He has just had a second heart bypass surgery.

My little brother who is 39 has had a heart attack once already and he is on a restricted FR diet. My sister who is 44 has had a heart attack. I am not taking any chances. I am by far the healthiest and best conditioned man in my family. I have not had a heart problem and I am not on a special diet. I eat what I like but restrict portions. I do not do a lot of carbs but do like to eat lean meat and fish, and fruit and nuts and salads as my perferred foods.

I am planning to have all of my military installed tooth work removed soon as the mercury is not helping me I think and the tooth work is failing anyway. I will keep on the regular chelation program I use and the other supplements I take and for now will include the HGH shot of 1IU per day as well.

I will let you know in 20 years or so how it is going. I think experiments are fine and research is of use in making these decisions but it comes down to doing what you can to live long enough for some better anti-aging treatment to come along.

If I was still in college and in my 20's I would not consider it but at my age and looking at a loss of eye function and some other age related symptoms of being a 41 year old I will take my chances with this HGH treatment.

Good health to you all,

[vortexentity]

I have a supplement regime that includes plenty of folic acid and B-6. I use honey as a sweetner in some things and stevia in things that it tastes good in like my sports tea.

I cut way down on coffee after about 40. That was a bad habit I learned from the Army. At least I do not use table sugar or drink alcohol very often. Those are both really bad for anyone to use very often. Thanks for the link. I have not hadmy homocystine level taken that I am aware of.

Likely I am keeping it under control and that is why I am one of the more healthy men in my family.

[scottl]

B vitamins do not control homocysteine in everyone (I know of 3 cases recently that had to add...TMG trimethyl glycine to lower the homocysteine). I'd second the suggestion of getting the homocysteine checked. While you are at it, get your CRP (C reactive protein) tested. Inflammation is a common marked for many diseases including heart disease.

[Lazarus Long]

Vortexentity, as I post regularly to this forum, am one of the leadership here, and have always used the name Lazarus Long online for at least the last eight years or so, I would appreciate that when you refer to your friend L-L that you clarify it is not the same person as me.

I would love to meet that person someday out of curiosity (we obviously share some interests) and the fact that he has over two decades on me in age but I just don't want the folks reading this thread to be confused into thinking they are reading about me.