51 replies to this topic

[InquilineKea]

[Logan]

Those yogurts aren't sugar free are they. Oh wait, they aren't real yogurt are they, they're soy yogurt. If your not eating fermented soy, your not consuming a soy product that has much health merit.

I think eating vegan is always a bad idea at any age. Dude, your brain is still developing, why would you risk missing out on essential nutrients by eating vegan. You realize there really is no way to get a true complete protein from a plant source. Your also missing out on getting healthy amounts of B12, unless you are supplementing it.

Where are the nuts? Almonds, walnuts, pistachios. I would cut down on the beans and increase your nut intake.

What about berries? I know I know, college diet.

Q tips??? That's a new one.

I guess this isn't so bad for a college kid. I still think your should at least consider becoming vegeterian and start eating some dairy products.

Why become vegan in the first place? Especially if it means sacrificing your own health. I've never really understood sacrificing one's own health to save and better the lives of animals. It just doesn't make sense.

In this past year, I've worked with three people, all women, that were vegan at one point and had to stop after they realized they were seriously compromising their health, in both the short run and the long run.

Edited by MorganM, 20 February 2011 - 04:18 AM.

[kismet]

You are getting the benefit of the doubt. I assume this to be a joke, though, it's a little early for april's fools.

(btw, there is no b12 in plant sources, none - zero, zilch)

[sthira]

For the zillionth time, a smart vegan diet is perfectly healthy. Most people are pretty stupid and can't quite get this. Furthermore, most people have pretty crappy diets no matter which diet they fall into - since most eat haphazardly and without much reflection or care.

[Logan]

For the zillionth time, a smart vegan diet is perfectly healthy. Most people are pretty stupid and can't quite get this. Furthermore, most people have pretty crappy diets no matter which diet they fall into - since most eat haphazardly and without much reflection or care.

They may have crappy diets in the sense that they don't eat enough vegetables or they eat too much sugar and carbs, but at least they are getting the nutrients they need from meat.

Exactly what are you doing to give your body everything it was meant to have and needs as a vegan? I personally don't think it's possible because supplementation just doesn't work as well as getting nutrients from food. And, over time, most vegans' health will suffer in some way.

There's a famous vegan that does some kind of healing retreat, I can't think of his name right now. He's been vegan for years and does not look healthy. He admits that he had his reasons for sticking with the diet and has had some health issues because of it. Evidently, he doesn't recommend it to anyone.

Kismet, yeah I thought it was a joke too. Then again, the dude is in college.

I just hope that vegetarian and especially vegan parents realize they are doing their children a great disservice if they raise them on a vegan or vegetarian diet from day one. I keep seeing these young vegan and vegetarian children that look pale and don't have the same spunk and energy of other children.

[sthira]

Pretty boring and obvious: eat fewer calories overall; eat more fruits, vegetables, nuts, and legumes; eat less meat, grains, dairy, oils, sugary drinks, pre-packaged junk foods (like those in the picture above)

[InquilineKea]

Oh yeah, I forgot to include some foods in there, like oatmeal.

I can't stand the taste of dairy + I'm lactose intolerant, so dairy is not an option.

Is there sugar-free soy yogurt anywhere?

I eat olive oil to get my fat intake. Is there anything nuts have that olive oil doesn't have?

Beans are my carb (and protein) source, so they're not really interchangeable with fat sources.

[niner]

I can't stand the taste of dairy + I'm lactose intolerant, so dairy is not an option.

I thought 'vegan' meant no dairy... do you mean 'vegetarian'? That would be better.

I eat olive oil to get my fat intake. Is there anything nuts have that olive oil doesn't have?

aflatoxin? Some nuts are pretty high in omega 6 fatty acids. Olive oil has some very beneficial polyphenols, at least if it's a good oil. Nuts have some protein and carbs.

[Application]

....I eat olive oil to get my fat intake. Is there anything nuts have that olive oil doesn't have?

Beans are my carb (and protein) source, so they're not really interchangeable with fat sources.

Like nuts, beans (especially soy) have a fair amount of the only fats humans actually require, omega 3 and 6 polyunsatuated. That is in stark contrast to olive oil which contains mostly monounsaturated fats, for which we have zero nutritional need.

Edited by Application, 22 February 2011 - 09:51 AM.

[Skötkonung]

....I eat olive oil to get my fat intake. Is there anything nuts have that olive oil doesn't have?

Beans are my carb (and protein) source, so they're not really interchangeable with fat sources.

Like nuts, beans (especially soy) have a fair amount of the only fats humans actually require, omega 3 and 6 polyunsatuated. That is in stark contrast to olive oil which contains mostly monounsaturated fats, for which we have zero nutritional need.

The requirement for omega 6 is so small that's it's stupid to bring it up as a "requirement," particularly given it's omnipresence in just about all foods these days (due to addition of seed oils, grains, nuts, etc). Long chain omega 3 fats (EPA and DHA) are the most important PUFA next to GLA. And of course long chain omega 3 are exclusively found in animal foods, although they can now be derived from algae at a cost... And no, flax doesn't really count towards omega 3 intake as 1. it has to be convertd to DHA and EPA, and 2. it's conversion is poor in humans.

That said, we DO have a dietary requirement for fats other than EFAs. Fat is needed so your body can absorb the fat soluble vitamins A, S, E, K, and prevent deficiencies of these vitamins. Fat is required for maintaining the various signalling hormones and structures in the body. Try removing fat from your diet... you'll get sick.

[Dorho]

....I eat olive oil to get my fat intake. Is there anything nuts have that olive oil doesn't have?

Beans are my carb (and protein) source, so they're not really interchangeable with fat sources.

Like nuts, beans (especially soy) have a fair amount of the only fats humans actually require, omega 3 and 6 polyunsatuated. That is in stark contrast to olive oil which contains mostly monounsaturated fats, for which we have zero nutritional need.

The requirement for omega 6 is so small that's it's stupid to bring it up as a "requirement," particularly given it's omnipresence in just about all foods these days (due to addition of seed oils, grains, nuts, etc). Long chain omega 3 fats (EPA and DHA) are the most important PUFA next to GLA. And of course long chain omega 3 are exclusively found in animal foods, although they can now be derived from algae at a cost... And no, flax doesn't really count towards omega 3 intake as 1. it has to be convertd to DHA and EPA, and 2. it's conversion is poor in humans.

That said, we DO have a dietary requirement for fats other than EFAs. Fat is needed so your body can absorb the fat soluble vitamins A, S, E, K, and prevent deficiencies of these vitamins. Fat is required for maintaining the various signalling hormones and structures in the body. Try removing fat from your diet... you'll get sick.

Well certainly it is possible to have a diet that doesn't provide enough essential fatty acids. From the information what I can make out of the shaky phone picture and little bit of googling, that might actually be the case: the nile spice lentil soup is very low in fat as is the dr mcdougall one, and the soy yogurts apparently have no added fat.

IIRC, a tablespoon of canola oil contains the EFAs linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid in good proportions and amounts, so that's what I'd recommend if money is an issue. A little bit of fish oil would probably be essential too if the conversion to EPA and DHA is as poor as Skot suggests. The extra virgin olive oil is something I'd keep as it has an impressive amount of evidence of health benefits on it's side.

But the GLA Skot mentioned is the reason I decided to post in this topic. What is it about that particular non-essential fatty acid that makes it so important? The tumor suppression properties?

[sthira]

I use flax seed oil as a vegan source of omega-3 fatty acids. Two papers have conflicting statements about the conversion of ALA to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA).

PMID: 18689552 says that flax seed oil does not increase plasma level of EPA.

PMID: 19584895 says that flax oil significantly increases plasma EPA.

Which one is right?

Knowing that ALA does not convert well to EPA and DHA, I stlll (stubbornly) only take one teaspoon of flax seed oil. I eat a few walnuts, too. This may not be adequate. Olive oil in tiny doses is fine, but very high caloric.

[capsun]

Too many PUFA's, carbs, and fructose. Not enough nutrients. Plus, you'll need some heavy "animal" supplements (ie: carnosine, taurine, methylcobalamin).

On a side note, the only difference I have seen between most "complete" proteins and "non-complete" proteins is the "deficient" sulfur amino acid content. If such is the case, this might not be a bad thing (if not still growing). Anybody else want to correct me on that?

Edited by capsun, 23 February 2011 - 02:49 AM.

[Sillewater]

Which one is right?

Knowing that ALA does not convert well to EPA and DHA, I stlll (stubbornly) only take one teaspoon of flax seed oil. I eat a few walnuts, too. This may not be adequate. Olive oil in tiny doses is fine, but very high caloric.

I personally rely on ALA and not that much. MR has already gone over the evidence:

http://www.longecity...post__p__410395


Also a problem with various conversion studies may be their dietary intake of preformed DHA/EPA:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Mar;77(3):565-72.Effects of beef- and fish-based diets on the kinetics of n-3 fatty acid metabolism in human subjects.Pawlosky RJ, Hibbeln JR, Lin Y, Goodson S, Riggs P, Sebring N, Brown GL, Salem N Jr.

DHA/EPA inhibits conversion of ALA. Makes sense.

[Application]

I use flax seed oil as a vegan source of omega-3 fatty acids. Two papers have conflicting statements about the conversion of ALA to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA).

PMID: 18689552 says that flax seed oil does not increase plasma level of EPA.

PMID: 19584895 says that flax oil significantly increases plasma EPA.

Which one is right?

Knowing that ALA does not convert well to EPA and DHA, I stlll (stubbornly) only take one teaspoon of flax seed oil. I eat a few walnuts, too. This may not be adequate. Olive oil in tiny doses is fine, but very high caloric.

Have you seen the below article below? It addresses maternal and infant DHA, not EPA, but wonder if the same logic applies? Among other arguments, the authors make the case that conversion rates are dependent on long term stores of O-3 acids.

Has an aquatic diet been necessary for hominin brain evolution and functional development?

John H. Langdon*

Departments of Biology and Anthropology, University of Indianapolis, 1400 East Hanna Avenue, Indianapolis, IN 46227, USA (Received 1 June 2005 – Revised 13 March 2006 – Accepted 13 March 2006)

A number of authors have argued that only an aquatic-based diet can provide the necessary quantity of DHA to support the human brain, and that a switch to such a diet early in hominin evolution was critical to human brain evolution. This paper identifies the premises behind this hypothesis and critiques them on the basis of clinical literature. Both tissue levels and certain functions of the developing infant brain are sensitive to extreme variations in the supply of DHA in artificial feeding, and it can be shown that levels in human milk reflect maternal diet. However, both the maternal and infant bodies have mechanisms to store and buffer the supply of DHA, so that functional deficits are generally resolved without compensatory diets. There is no evidence that human diets based on terrestrial food chains with traditional nursing practices fail to provide ade- quate levels of DHA or other n-3 fatty acids. Consequently, the hypothesis that DHA has been a limiting resource in human brain evolution must be considered to be unsupported....



full text source: Has an aquatic diet been necessary for hominin brain evolution and ...

edit: cross posted with above- similar point from another angle

Edited by Application, 23 February 2011 - 04:13 AM.

[Application]

....I eat olive oil to get my fat intake. Is there anything nuts have that olive oil doesn't have?

Beans are my carb (and protein) source, so they're not really interchangeable with fat sources.

Like nuts, beans (especially soy) have a fair amount of the only fats humans actually require, omega 3 and 6 polyunsatuated. That is in stark contrast to olive oil which contains mostly monounsaturated fats, for which we have zero nutritional need.

The requirement for omega 6 is so small that's it's stupid to bring it up as a "requirement," particularly given it's omnipresence in just about all foods these days (due to addition of seed oils, grains, nuts, etc). Long chain omega 3 fats (EPA and DHA) are the most important PUFA next to GLA. And of course long chain omega 3 are exclusively found in animal foods, although they can now be derived from algae at a cost... And no, flax doesn't really count towards omega 3 intake as 1. it has to be convertd to DHA and EPA, and 2. it's conversion is poor in humans.

That said, we DO have a dietary requirement for fats other than EFAs. Fat is needed so your body can absorb the fat soluble vitamins A, S, E, K, and prevent deficiencies of these vitamins. Fat is required for maintaining the various signalling hormones and structures in the body. Try removing fat from your diet... you'll get sick.

I'm not sure what you are replying to. I only stated olive oil is not essential as opposed to Omega 3 and 6. I agree humans need to consume fats.

[Sillewater]

....
Have you seen the below article below? It addresses maternal and infant DHA, not EPA, but wonder if the same logic applies? Among other arguments, the authors make the case that conversion rates are dependent on long term stores of O-3 acids.
....

Well I think a pregnant women's requirement is different from someone who isn't pregnant.

[Application]

....
Have you seen the below article below? It addresses maternal and infant DHA, not EPA, but wonder if the same logic applies? Among other arguments, the authors make the case that conversion rates are dependent on long term stores of O-3 acids.
....

Well I think a pregnant women's requirement is different from someone who isn't pregnant.

Data regarding pregnant woman is useful to study mechanism of synthesis and buffering because of the high demand.

[sthira]

Meanwhile, back to the original question. FWIW, I would remove all the prepackaged bean and soy yogurt products and replace it with some (certainly not exhaustive nor final) of the following:
Chard
Kale
Collards
Mustard Greens
Beet Greens
Turnip Greens
Spinach
Romaine Lettuce
Celery
Carrots
Broccoli
Broccoli Sprouts
Brussels Sprouts
Tomatoes
Shiitake Mushrooms
Sweet Potatoes
Blueberries
Blackberries
Strawberries
Raspberries
Grapefruit
Avocado
Apples
Flax Seed Oil
Walnuts
Almonds
Pumpkin Seeds
Lentils
Black Beans
Mung Beans
Red Beans
Black Rice
Quinoa
B-12
D3
Taurine
Zinc
Carnosine
...And more

If I were to give up my vegan diet it would be for sardines and oysters.

[Skötkonung]

Which one is right?

Knowing that ALA does not convert well to EPA and DHA, I stlll (stubbornly) only take one teaspoon of flax seed oil. I eat a few walnuts, too. This may not be adequate. Olive oil in tiny doses is fine, but very high caloric.

I personally rely on ALA and not that much. MR has already gone over the evidence:

http://www.longecity...post__p__410395


Also a problem with various conversion studies may be their dietary intake of preformed DHA/EPA:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Mar;77(3):565-72.Effects of beef- and fish-based diets on the kinetics of n-3 fatty acid metabolism in human subjects.Pawlosky RJ, Hibbeln JR, Lin Y, Goodson S, Riggs P, Sebring N, Brown GL, Salem N Jr.

DHA/EPA inhibits conversion of ALA. Makes sense.

And how do you know that you are exempt from the poor conversion? Have you been tested? And how do you know this effect even plays a significant role as a confounding factor in all studies on omega 3 metabolism? I would issue a word of caution before embarking on dietary changes based on shaky interpretation of clinical evidence (at best). To quote Dr Davis:

"Flaxseed oil is a wonderful oil rich in linolenic acid, which may provide health benefits all by itself. Some authorities have speculated that the substantial reduction in heart attack seen in the Lyon Heart Study, the study that demonstrated the healthy power of the Mediterranean diet, is due to linolenic acid.
Flaxseed oil is also rich in monounsaturates and low in saturates, both desirable qualities. Of course, I'm talking here about flaxseed oil, to be distinguished from flaxseed , which are the intact seeds. The seeds themselves also contain the same oils, but contain other components, specifically lignan, a plant fiber with suspected health benefits like reduction in cancer risk.

not a substitute for fish oil. Why do we use fish oil for our coronary plaque control program (trying to reduce your heart scan score)? Several reasons. Fish oil:

--Dramatically reduces triglycerides, usually by 50% or more.
--Dramatically reduces specific lipoprotein classes like VLDL
--Dramatically reduces, often eliminates, abnormal postprandial (after-eating) lipoprotein patterns, like IDL (intermediate-density lipoprotein)
--Has been conclusively shown to reduce risk of heart attack and death from heart attack (GISSI Prevenzione Trial).
--Has been shwon to reduce risk of stroke.
--Modifies blood clotting parameters, particularly a 20% reduction in fibrinogen.



Flaxseed oil, or linolenic acid concentrate for that matter, do not accomplish any of these effects, all crucial if you are to gain control over your coronary plaque.
Flaxseed oil and flaxseed remain wonderful nutritional agents for their own reasons. But they will not substitute for fish oil in your program. Only fish oil--the real thing--does the job."


EPA and DHA are also present in terrestrial foods, such as pastured meat and dairy. That combined with human's presence along coastal regions for much of our evolution does imply some importance for a supplemental DHA / EPA. I'm not saying flax is bad, but I don't think it would be prudent to use it as a substitute for longer chain omega 3 fats. Evolutionarily, do you think we were living mostly off of nuts (which contain low levels of ALA at best) and grains, or wild meats and other seafoods?

Edited by Skötkonung, 23 February 2011 - 10:22 AM.

[Skötkonung]

What is it about that particular non-essential fatty acid [GLA] that makes it so important? The tumor suppression properties?

GLA is anti-inflammatory and helps the immune system function properly. Many people with autoimmune disorders are found to be deficient in this particular fat.

Edited by Michael, 21 April 2011 - 09:20 PM.
trim those darned quotes!!

[kismet]

EPA and DHA are also present in terrestrial foods, such as pastured meat and dairy. That combined with human's presence along coastal regions for much of our evolution does imply some importance for a supplemental DHA / EPA. I'm not saying flax is bad, but I don't think it would be prudent to use it as a substitute for longer chain omega 3 fats. Evolutionarily, do you think we were living mostly off of nuts (which contain low levels of ALA at best) and grains, or wild meats and other seafoods?

Paleo reasoning = acceptable mechanistic reasoning that is trumped by stronger evidence. Remember that it may be completely irrelevant to health, even, e.g. due to antagonistic pleiotropy.

& In light of recent studies: EPA+DHA performing like crap in clinical studies (OMEGA, Alpha-omega trial, even JELIS; a low ceiling effect as per epidemiology at 200-500mg EPA+DHA/d), thus suggesting the purported benefits may be exaggerated, and emerging evidence in favour of ALA it is very, very difficult to make clear cut recommendations. (though, on all things CR one should side w/ MR, ie ALA for CRONies)

Two recent studies:
Alpha-Omega http://www.longecity...__fromsearch__1

and note that Ramsden et al's re-analysis of Mozaffarian et al. - the paper that found unbalanced dietary PUFA could be quite toxic- also shows benefits from plant based N3.

Br J Nutr. 2010 Dec;104(11):1586-600.
n-6 Fatty acid-specific and mixed polyunsaturate dietary interventions have different effects on CHD risk: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials.
Ramsden CE, Hibbeln JR, Majchrzak SF, Davis JM.

--

Personally, I sort of prefer a combination of low dose EPA/DHA+ALA right now. (ad lib diet)

Edited by kismet, 23 February 2011 - 07:05 PM.

[Skötkonung]

& In light of recent studies: EPA+DHA performing like crap in clinical studies (OMEGA, Alpha-omega trial, even JELIS; a low ceiling effect as per epidemiology at 200-500mg EPA+DHA/d), thus suggesting the purported benefits may be exaggerated, and emerging evidence in favour of ALA it is very, very difficult to make clear cut recommendations. (though, on all things CR one should side w/ MR, ie ALA for CRONies)

Two recent studies:
Alpha-Omega http://www.longecity...__1#entry427841

and note that Ramsden et al's re-analysis of Mozaffarian et al. - the paper that found unbalanced dietary PUFA could be quite toxic- also shows benefits from plant based N3.

Br J Nutr. 2010 Dec;104(11):1586-600.
n-6 Fatty acid-specific and mixed polyunsaturate dietary interventions have different effects on CHD risk: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials.
Ramsden CE, Hibbeln JR, Majchrzak SF, Davis JM.

Wait.. are you telling me that a substance (like EPA / DHA) that affects platelet aggregation / function has less effect when taking a medication (like pravastatin) that also affects platelet aggregation / function. Furthermore, investigating omega 3 supplementation for a treatment of CVD is much different than using it as part of a prevention plan. You criticize my appeal to evolution while using even shakier logic to characterize your dietary recommendations.

Honestly, I am starting to believe that if you are going make a major dietary change you should be prepared to shell out some money for appropriate lab tests. For instance, a major paleo blogger (Free the Animal) has been eating low-carb for years. His cholesterol is high, upwards of 210. His LDL is also high. Because of his low carb intake he assumed his LDL was 1.) lower due to limitations of the Friedwald equation 2.) of a larger (lower risk) subtype. However, when he finally got a direct LDL measurement and subtyping he found that it was actually in-line with the Friedwald equation and his LDL was not as large and fluffy as previously believed. The moral here... just because you have read through a few research papers, you truely won't know how something affects you until you have been tested.

Edited by Skötkonung, 23 February 2011 - 07:25 PM.

[kismet]

Wait.. are you telling me that a substance (like EPA / DHA) that affects platelet aggregation / function has less effect when taking a medication (like pravastatin) that also affects platelet aggregation / function. Furthermore, investigating omega 3 supplementation for a treatment of CVD is much different than using it as part of a prevention plan.

Of course, but I cited some of the best available evidence: there are (almost) no prevention RCTs with fish oil short of perhaps a JELIS subgroup, but the study was also quite a let-down. It is perhaps more likely that a healthy person resembles a well-medicated sick person - and not an unmedicated person - in risk profile and clotting behavior anyway (both lower). Therefore the studies using highly medicated patients do seem quite realistic (OMEGA, Omega-alpha trial, in which ALA tended to outperform EPA/DHA, that both failed vs e.g. the Italian GISSI).

You criticize my appeal to evolution while using even shakier logic to characterize your dietary recommendations.

Huh? RCTs are the gold-standard. I hoped to be clear when I said: "Paleo reasoning = acceptable mechanistic reasoning that is trumped by stronger evidence [=RCTs, etc]. Remember that it may be completely irrelevant to health, even, e.g. [=for example, of course a hypothetical example is going to be even more speculative.] due to antagonistic pleiotropy."

I do not need to provide a perfect alternative hypothesis over paleo to say that, based on RCTs, the literature hardly supports EPA/DHA over ALA, at least not clearly.

Lyon Diet heart would be also an older study supportive of ALA. (let us ignore the Indo-Mediterranean Diet Heart Study, since it might have been fabricated)

[Skötkonung]

Wait.. are you telling me that a substance (like EPA / DHA) that affects platelet aggregation / function has less effect when taking a medication (like pravastatin) that also affects platelet aggregation / function. Furthermore, investigating omega 3 supplementation for a treatment of CVD is much different than using it as part of a prevention plan.

Of course, but I cited some of the best available evidence: there are (almost) no prevention RCTs with fish oil short of perhaps a JELIS subgroup, but the study was also quite a let-down. It is perhaps more likely that a healthy person resembles a well-medicated sick person - and not an unmedicated person - in risk profile and clotting behavior anyway (both lower). Therefore the studies using highly medicated patients do seem quite realistic (OMEGA, Omega-alpha trial, in which ALA tended to outperform EPA/DHA, that both failed vs e.g. the Italian GISSI).

Wrong. Ignoring the obvious side effects (known and unknown) of powerful medications like pravastatin, being medicated does not equate normal health. First of all, medicated or not, these people all have CVD so they cannot be used for studying preventative medicine. That said, even when a condition is medicated to bring health parameters into a somewhat normal state, it does not make that individual a "normal" person. Take Type 1 diabetes, even when a diabetic has their insulin levels carefully monitored they still have all kinds of health problems not seen in someone with typically functioning pancreatic b cells. The same thing can be said with hashimoto's thyroiditis or any number of health conditions that can be "corrected" using medication. I think you need a reality check... the human body is a very complex closed system and taking a sick person and putting them on a statin does not make them a normal health adult.

You criticize my appeal to evolution while using even shakier logic to characterize your dietary recommendations.

Huh? RCTs are the gold-standard. I hoped to be clear when I said: "Paleo reasoning = acceptable mechanistic reasoning that is trumped by stronger evidence [=RCTs, etc]. Remember that it may be completely irrelevant to health, even, e.g. [=for example, of course a hypothetical example is going to be even more speculative.] due to antagonistic pleiotropy."

I do not need to provide a perfect alternative hypothesis over paleo to say that, based on RCTs, the literature hardly supports EPA/DHA over ALA, at least not clearly.

Lyon Diet heart would be also an older study supportive of ALA. (let us ignore the Indo-Mediterranean Diet Heart Study, since it might have been fabricated)

It may be that a RCT would trump "paleo reasoning," but in absence of relevant evidence it is an excellent starting point for constructing dietary protocols.

As a side note, I'm not discounting ALA (or the use of flax) as an important supplement. I just think that it is not a replacement for EPA / DHA. One reason why you may be seeing improvements with the use of ALA (as opposed to EPA / DHA) is because it competes with LA for the delta-6 desaturase enzyme. Cardiovascular disease mortality tracks well with the LA / n-6 content of blood plasma, both across populations and within them. You can see modern Quebec Inuit have the same low rate of CVD mortality as the Japanese. Notice the five red triangles are from MRFIT, a large American intervention trial. They represent the study participants divided into five groups based on their plasma n-6. Note that the average percentage of n-6 fatty acids is very high, even though the trial occurred in the 1970s! Since n-3 and n-6 fats compete for space in human tissue, it makes sense that the Inuit are protected from CVD by their high n-3 intake. Given that LA in excess has been associated with progression of CVD and other diseases of inflammation, it seems likely that anything that competes with its presence in the diet may be beneficial (assuming the person is consuming an excess of LA). Just something to think about..

Attached Files

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•  omega32.gif   6.64KB   28 downloads

Edited by Skötkonung, 24 February 2011 - 01:41 AM.

[ajnast4r]

good thread.

if it matters to anyone, i'm a vegetarian and i had believed firmly based on the research i had read that epa/dha consumption was not necessary when n6(la) and n3(ala) were at a ratio of 4:1 or less...until i actually tried a algal dha/epa supplement. of course its subjective, but the algal n3 supplement made a HUGE difference in my memory and inflammation in my body.

[kismet]

Judging by your first paragraph, we really must be to talking past each other on this one. Yes, a sick person, on drugs or not, is not "normal"; not even close. But my point is simple and twofold: it's still some of the best evidence we have* and medicated patients may be more similar to healthy people, which is why the alpha-omega trial is likely more relevant than GISSI. (or def. not less, def. not to be discounted out of hand)

*they're humans after all! and atherosclerosis and CVD is clearly progressive with overlapping risk factors and mechanisms at different stages

As a side note, I'm not discounting ALA (or the use of flax) as an important supplement.

We mostly agree on this and other points it seems, though, perhaps for different reasons.

To sum up my point:
We do not have head to head data other than the alpha-omega trial, which provides very modest evidence of ALA-superiority post myocardial infarct. We also have quite some studies showing EPA/DHA benefits AND, now IMHO, pretty solid evidence that ALA enriched diets are healthy. So the evidence would trump the paleo working hypothesis that ALA is likely useless or at least inferior to EPA/DHA; both interventions are now backed by quite good (yet incomplete, preliminary) evidence. Therefore both.

AFAIK hot off the presses:
The PREDIMED trial, implementing a Mediterranean diet somewhat similar to the Lyon study sans PUFA-lowering, now published first results on relevant endpoints, showing reduced Diabetes incidence from an ALA-enriched complex dietary intervention.

http://www.unav.es/d... 2010 Salas.pdf

(tho, honestly the results seem more consistent with a MUFA/other effect than a pure ALA benefit: a similar anti-diabetes effect was seen in the low-ALA olive oil group)

Edited by kismet, 24 February 2011 - 08:24 PM.

[sthira]

I'm curious. You're both rational men (Kismet, Skot) who follow the literature and write great posts with thoughtful insights. What do you both eat? What are your basic stats - height, weight, calorie intake, measurements of your typical daily food composition? Also, what do you avoid?

I ask not to then throw down some gauntlet of judgment. Nor to lift you up as examples of dietary perfection. It's just helpful. This is all art and science. For example, if practicing a vegan diet may be injuring me because n-3 levels are weak from flax and walnuts and vegetable sources, I will consider adding small amounts of sardines to my diet.

[Skötkonung]

I'm curious. You're both rational men (Kismet, Skot) who follow the literature and write great posts with thoughtful insights. What do you both eat? What are your basic stats - height, weight, calorie intake, measurements of your typical daily food composition? Also, what do you avoid?

I ask not to then throw down some gauntlet of judgment. Nor to lift you up as examples of dietary perfection. It's just helpful. This is all art and science. For example, if practicing a vegan diet may be injuring me because n-3 levels are weak from flax and walnuts and vegetable sources, I will consider adding small amounts of sardines to my diet.

In regards to fat intake, I favor a diet that has a PUFA ratio of 1:1 to 4:1 (n-6 / n-3). n-3 intake should contain adequate EPA / DHA and ALA. I personally take 1g EPA / DHA daily in cod liver oil and occasionally 2g ALA as an enriched flax supplement. I also take 500mg GLA periodically. On days when I consume fatty fish, I take less (or no) cod liver oil.

A study was recently published showing that 3g/d of fish oil in patients with metabolic syndrome increased LDL levels and insulin resistance. Most of the studies showing fish oil benefits are short-term, lasting less than one year. The only trial lasting more than four years, the DART 2 trial, showed that fish oil capsules actually increase the risk of heart disease and sudden death. PUFA are highly vulnerable to oxidative damage. When fat particles oxidize, they break down into smaller compounds, like malondialdehyde (MDA), that are dangerous because they damage proteins, DNA, and other important cellular structures. A study by Mata et al demonstrated that oxidative damage increases as intake of omega-3 fat increases. The results of this study were summarized in the Perfect Health Diet, by Paul and Shou-Ching Jaminet:

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Notice the clear increase in TBARS (a measure of oxidative damage of the LDL particle) with n-3 fat. It's important to note that this was only a 5-week trial. If it had gone on for longer than that, it's likely the oxidative damage caused by n-3 fats would have been even worse. This isn't surprising if you understand the chemical composition of fats. PUFA are highly vulnerable to oxidative damage because they're the only fatty acids that have two or more double bonds, and it's the carbon that lies between the double bonds that is vulnerable to oxidation (as shown in the figure below):

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Another thing worth noting is that intake of saturated and monounsaturated fats does not increase oxidative damage by a significant amount. This is illustrated in both the table and the diagram above: saturated fats have no double bonds, which means they are well protected against oxidation. MUFA is slightly more vulnerable, since it does have one double bond, but not nearly as much as PUFA which has several double-bonds. A randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trial likewise showed that 6 grams per day of fish oil increased lipid peroxides and MDA in healthy men, regardless of whether they were supplemented with 900 IU of vitamin E. And consumption of fresh, non-oxidized DHA and EPA has been shown to increase markers of oxidative stress in rats.

For this reason, I try and keep total PUFA content in my diet very low. The reason why I favor cod liver oil despite a high risk of oxidation is because of its fat-soluble vitamins (A, D, K2 and E) – not just EPA and DHA. Second, in the context of a nutrient-dense diet that excludes industrial seed oils and refined sugar, and is adequate in vitamin B6, biotin, calcium, magnesium and arachidonic acid, the risk of oxidative damage that may occur with 1g/d of cod liver oils is outweighed by the benefits of the fat-soluble vitamins. I also take NAC, which has been shown to reduce oxidative tissue damage.

The bulk of my diet is SFA and MUFA (favoring SFA). I've experimented with varying levels of carbohydrate and what works best for me (my lipid profile and fasting blood glucose) is lower carbohydrate (at or around 50-70g daily). I also took higher levels of protein at various points in my life but in light of new evidence on the pro-aging aspects of consuming excess complete proteins, I've been limiting to around 1g / kg of body weight. Experimentally, 1g / kg of protein seems to maximize endogenous antioxidant production.

I think that anybody who is wanting to experiment with their diet or supplements should monitor their health very carefully. That includes getting the relevant tests completed.

Edited by Skötkonung, 24 February 2011 - 10:12 PM.

[sthira]

Word. And why I don't take fish oil pills but am considering small amounts of sardines and/or oysters in my CR profile. Cod liver oil's Vitamin A toxicity: your thoughts? SFA doesn't lead clogged and inflamed blood vessels?

What do you eat, Kismet? What's your typical food day like?