That stack is hardly nootropic. Also, the fact that you are also taking amphetamines is, in my opinion, countereffective if you were taking a real nootropic stack.
[huh] Aside from (Hydergine) which I have heard negatives about, what other Nootropic's are there? I mean, Choline, Vinpocetine, PS, DMAE, Glutamine, Piracetam and then ALCAR for energy... what other Nootropic's exist? Also, I didn't know that about the amphetamines. I'm trying to replace it with Nootropics for the cost savings along with the tolerance factor.
#7
pinballwizard
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Posted 06 December 2004 - 01:51 AM
Hey guys, I've been on this stack for about 6 months now (cycle off for a few weeks ever 2 months or so) with no negative effects.
Omega3 Fish Oil 3000mg
L-Tyrosine 1500mg
Siberian Ginseng 2400mg
Ginko Biloba 120mg
Grape Seed Extract 200mg
coenzyme CoQ10 400mg
Milk Thistle 350mg
Choline 1000mg
Vinpocetine 30mg
Phosphatidylserine 200mg
DMAE 600mg
HMB 4500mg
ALCAR 1000mg
Piracetam 2400mg
L-Glutamine 20000mg
Multivitamin http://www.vitacost....earchText=alive
The above is my "daily" stack; I don't take it all at once though - I split it into 3 portions and have it throughout the day.
I also take 30mg of Adderral XR.
I'm wondering about:
1. Long term effects if any are known (mainly on my liver)?
2. Any "combined" side effects from taking all this?
_________________________________________________ Here is some things to brainstorm--take it with a grain of salt. You are 6 months into this and I am 3 months into this. Your vitamin should have less than 150 IU of alpha-tocopheryl, or have vitamin E complex. Run a search on it. AOR.ca sells it. Yeah, I wonder what people have to say about Ginseng long-term. I have been taking it a long time. I notice my body adapts a little perhaps. 1.5 grams is huge... This is a really ominous thing about the stack. The Brain Candy book talked about long term effects... I can't dreadge up the book at the moment. The herbalists call it an adaptogen... A kind of herb cure-all that balances your body out for a lot of things. if your blood pressure is high, it will lower it, if lower it will raise it. The word adaptogen might be more tradition that science. The normal dosage is is like 300-400 mg, right? Choline? Will it be enough? CDP choline and Alpha-GPC are the more powerful newer versions of it. Take more if you get a headache. Omega 3 fish oil... What I am reading is that AOR is saying that it is the amount of EPA in it that helps the brain. They were saying that DHA does not help. It also has anti-inflammatory properties and is a natural pain killer. What does tyrosine do? What is HMB? What do you think of Ginko Biloba. It is over the counter? Does that mean it is more safe? More effective or less? With Adderall, who knows if you have exactly the normal stack... The Adderall might be too strong. Amphetamines are often stronger, much much stronger... that might not be safe.
#8
ozone
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Posted 06 December 2004 - 04:02 AM
Hey guys, I've been on this stack for about 6 months now (cycle off for a few weeks ever 2 months or so) with no negative effects.
Omega3 Fish Oil 3000mg
L-Tyrosine 1500mg
Siberian Ginseng 2400mg
Ginko Biloba 120mg
Grape Seed Extract 200mg
coenzyme CoQ10 400mg
Milk Thistle 350mg
Choline 1000mg
Vinpocetine 30mg
Phosphatidylserine 200mg
DMAE 600mg
HMB 4500mg
ALCAR 1000mg
Piracetam 2400mg
L-Glutamine 20000mg
Multivitamin http://www.vitacost....earchText=alive
The above is my "daily" stack; I don't take it all at once though - I split it into 3 portions and have it throughout the day.
I also take 30mg of Adderral XR.
I'm wondering about:
1. Long term effects if any are known (mainly on my liver)?
2. Any "combined" side effects from taking all this?
_________________________________________________
Here is some things to brainstorm--take it with a grain of salt. You are 6 months into this and I am 3 months into this.
Your vitamin should have less than 150 IU of alpha-tocopheryl, or have vitamin E complex. Run a search on it. AOR.ca sells it.
Yeah, I wonder what people have to say about Ginseng long-term. I have been taking it a long time. I notice my body adapts a little perhaps. 1.5 grams is huge... This is a really ominous thing about the stack. The Brain Candy book talked about long term effects... I can't dreadge up the book at the moment. The herbalists call it an adaptogen... A kind of herb cure-all that balances your body out for a lot of things. if your blood pressure is high, it will lower it, if lower it will raise it. The word adaptogen might be more tradition that science. The normal dosage is is like 300-400 mg, right?
Choline? Will it be enough? CDP choline and Alpha-GPC are the more powerful newer versions of it. Take more if you get a headache.
Omega 3 fish oil... What I am reading is that AOR is saying that it is the amount of EPA in it that helps the brain. They were saying that DHA does not help. It also has anti-inflammatory properties and is a natural pain killer.
What does tyrosine do?
What is HMB?
What do you think of Ginko Biloba. It is over the counter? Does that mean it is more safe? More effective or less?
With Adderall, who knows if you have exactly the normal stack... The Adderall might be too strong. Amphetamines are often stronger, much much stronger... that might not be safe.
1. Click on the link to my multivitamin up top. It's really incredible and yes, it has 200UI of E. 2. Who knows about ginseng. On the bottle it says take 3 caps (which is 1.5g) 2x a day. But it's funny, I bought two bottles of some other supplement (I forget what) and the larger bottle said take 2pills 3times a day, and the smaller said 1pill 3times a day, and guess what? They were both the same mg content per pill. So it makes you wonder regarding that. I cut the ginsing down to 1g/day until I find out more. 3. I'll have to do a search on the CDP and AGPC. I didn't know about that. So thanks. 4. Regarding Omega-3, I read the same thing. But I also read that if you simply take EPA without DHA then it won't have any effect. I forget the ratio, but I've read numerous posts that said you need to ingest the correct ratio of the two if you want any effect. When I researched the stuff, I found this to be the best Omega-3 available (just my opinion by the way, so open to suggestions otherwise) - http://www13.netriti...mega3_page.html5. L-Tyrosine is a non-essential amino acid that helps relieve stress and ehances the mood (something every law student needs hah). And because it's an amino acid, it has tons of over great effects, it's dirt cheap to buy, and is safe. Read more here: http://www.sutterhea...l_id=hn-2919008And it should be taken on an empty stomach with water to maximize the effects. Because other protien containing foods contain it, the dosage in pill form for you will vary. 6. HMB is an incredible supplement. It doesn't get much publicity since it usually costs a lot of money, but I can give you a link to it really cheap. HMB reduces muscle catabolism and may protect against muscle damage and so it generally speeds up recovery from the gym. So unless you workout, and workout hard, there is little sense in taking it. No harmful side effects either - it's another very safe supplement in almost any dose. Read more about it here: http://www.supplemen...supplementId=411g pills, 90 count, $29 -- http://www.1fast400....roducts_id=1415150g powder, $18 -- http://www.1fast400....roducts_id=11887. Ginko is good stuff. Long term effects? Well I'm still alive heh (but its said to have the same long term effects regarding blood thinning as ginsing). Also, it's toxic in high doses so... I buy GinkGold which appears to be really great. http://www.vitacost....chText=ginkgoldMy best suggestion and what I do myself is to simply take 350mg of milk thistle daily to help protect my liver from all the crud I'm throwing at it. I also don't drink and I never have smoked, so I think it all averages out. [lol]
#9
scottl
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Posted 06 December 2004 - 04:45 AM
Guys,
Siberian ginseng=elutherococcus
Chinese, american or korean ginseng=panax ginseng. The comments above are true of panax, not siberian.
Ozone,
1. Siberian is very gentle but can be a little stimulating if you take to much. What you were doing is probably fine.
2. 400 mg of co Q-10 is silly unless you are diabetic or otherwise very ill. Take one every other day and when you run out, take 100 mg/day (these should be in gelcaps like some vitamin E is with oil for best bsorption).
3. Ya I would agree to get a better form of choline e.g. CDP or alpha GPC
4. The phosphatidyl serine is expensive and probably not worth it unless you need it for the anticortisol benefits (the only confirmed benefits)
5. Glutamine....is controversial for lifting benefits, and very likely adds nothing and again is expensive. Adds nothing--assuming you are getting enough protein.
6. When you run out, I'd just get 50 mg grape seed extract and take 2/day
7. DMAE, I defer to...the avant poster (Gus?).
8. You really need to add some lipoic acid. Among other things this helps neutralize increased free radicals in the mitochondria caused by acetyl carnitine. Best is R-alpha lipoic acid AT LEAST 50 mg 3 X/day with meals, probably better minimum 100 mg X 3. There are arguments for taking more, lots more (and they are quite possibly right) e.g....I forget but think it was like 600 or 1200 mg/day....maybe they are correct (it is extrapolation from an animal study). There is also talk about how KR-ala is best..I'm skeptical (see other threads lest this one get tied up in that discussion).
OH and if you get regular ALA which is not R-ALA you need twice as much as the R-ala.
9. With vinpocetine there is little added benefit from the ginko.
10. OK LOL where do you buy the HMB? Kilosports? DPS? 1fast400 has 150 grams for $18.00
11. That fish oil is fine.
12. Dont cycle off most of the stuff (would you cycle off air, water or protein?)
Perhaps HMB (your call I don't know much about it)
The siberian ginseng might be a good idea to cycle. And you could alternate it with another adaptogen. That is a whole nother post in itself.
Edited by scottl, 06 December 2004 - 09:21 AM.
#10
pinballwizard
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Posted 06 December 2004 - 10:28 PM
Yeah, I still dont know much about fish oil... EPA versus DHA. I would love to know more about ratios and what the debate is. tyrosine... How long does it take to get mood affects? How does that compare to D,L Phenylalinine? Ginseng... Still have not had much experience here other than some energy drinks and siberian herb. I don't feel right taking ginseng all the time. Part of me wants it right in the morning and I love it. I sense some subtle addiction and that its affects are less and less as time goes by. Is that what you sense? I have not even made up my opinion, mind you... I am gonna "try" to cycle it. HMB... Have you tried Creatine? Amazing non-subtle strength gains. It takes less time to recover too. I won't lift without it. Part of the instructions is that you have to cycle that item. Also drink lots of water. Without you will get a stomach ache. It is the 2nd most popular item after vitamins in GNC for a reason. Buy online. What about Arginine Alpha-ketoglutarate? That is good too. BAC is selling that for cheap. I have not tried it yet from there, but GNCs seems excellent from my short experience with it. The multi-vitamin.... Yeah, there is a thread in the Supplements forum regarding vitamin E. http://www.imminst.o...T&f=6&t=4546&s= I dont know much here. But I am getting full spectrum Vit E from now on. Just stirring the pot, Pinball
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Posted 16 December 2004 - 02:48 AM
Allow me to introduce myself as Skye Stout, a.k.a. skyebird. [lol] OK--briefly
3. Why are you taking 500 mg DMAE?
To answer the question of scottl, DMAE may help relieve symptoms of ADHD. According to WholeHealthMD.com, DMAE Plans were underway to market DMAE as a prescription drug for the treatment of ADHD; however, due to the the overall expense of the process, it was sold as an OTC nutritional supplement. (please click WholeHealthMD.com re: DMAE for more info). Meanwhile, let me preface what I say next with the acknowledgement that I may risk offending the forum, a risk I am willing to take for your sake, Ozone. You see, I also take 30mg Adderall XR, and alternate cycles of this, Ritalin LA and Dexedrine XR (always taking one, never taking all), at approximately the same dosages. I also take Strattera to combat the symptoms of ADHD. I feel that in our case, considering the debilitating effects of ADHD, taking these medications are important, as are the supplements. 12. Dont cycle off most of the stuff (would you cycle off air, water or protein?)
In additon, you might also try these: Aniracetam, Hydergine, Sulbutiamine, Alpha GPC, Huperzine A, Pyritinol and Centrophenoxine. [thumb]
#12
AORsupport
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Posted 16 December 2004 - 07:21 PM
[quote]Hey guys, I've been on this stack for about 6 months now (cycle off for a few weeks ever 2 months or so) with no negative effects. Omega3 Fish Oil 3000mg Regarding Omega-3, I read the same thing. But I also read that if you simply take EPA without DHA then it won't have any effect. I forget the ratio, but I've read numerous posts that said you need to ingest the correct ratio of the two if you want any effect.[/quote] No, quite the opposite: unless you're a developing foetus/infant/child, if you are taking omega-3 specifically for cognitive effects, you will want to get plenty of EPA and bring your DHA intake down to zilch, as it is either ineffective or counterproductive. See this article about the effects of EPA and DHA on mood and thought patterns. [quote] L-Tyrosine 1500mg[/quote] Clean and safe. You may want to up the dose, however: benefits are best-documented at ~10 g/d. [quote] Siberian Ginseng 2400mg[/quote] I doubt you'll get any cognitive benefits from this. If you're a life extensionist and don't have a specific need for an adaptogen, I would drop it as having a small risk and a much smaller possiblity of benefit. [quote] Ginko Biloba 120mg[/quote] You're 26 and sound like your diet is good (though maybe you're gobbling white bread and lard for dinner  ). I doubt that you have significant impairment of cerebrovascular microcirculation, and therefore don't expect that you'll benefit much from this. Again, small risk and even smaller likelihood of benefit. [quote] Grape Seed Extract 200mg[/quote] Similar analysis to Ginkgo and Eleutherococcus, above. [quote] coenzyme CoQ10 400mg[/quote] Again, I don't understand why you would take this as a cognitive enhancer. And while this dose is appropriate for CHF patients, it is too high for a young, healthy life extensionist. See (1), which found no obvious benefit from the human allometrically-scaled equivalent of 600 mg/d, and "One notable finding was that 16 mice in the Q10-supplemented group showed deposition of a crystalline-appearing, insoluble material in areas of the heart, liver, and kidney." [quote] Milk Thistle 350mg[/quote] Similar analysis to Ginkgo and Eleutherococcus, above. Lots of people take this thinking that it will "protect their livers." I know of no evidence that it will do this, unless you live in an environmental disaster zone or have existing liver cirrhosis. [quote] Choline 1000mg[/quote] Elsewhere, you say "I split it into 3 portions and have it throughout the day," apparently speaking of the entire mix. One should not take quaternary amines (ALCAR, choline, and DMAE) at the same time: they share common active transporters in the intestine and at the blood/brain barrier and compete for absorption (see eg (2,3)). Take these at different times. Others have suggested that you replace choline with GPC or citicoline, as if these were just 'better' choline sources. They are really best thought of as entirely distinct substances, with distinct cholinergic effects; see this article on choline alfoscerate (alpha-GPC) and this one on citicoline (cytidine 5'-diphosphate choline, or CDP-choline. [quote] Vinpocetine 30mg[/quote] Fine . [quote] Phosphatidylserine 200mg[/quote] As I've documented previously in this thread, currently-available, soy-based PS are useless for cognitive purposes on current evidence. Citicoline is a better choice, acting as a global phospholipid remodelling supplement; see the previously-cited article on citicoline, and this article which gets into the soy PS bait-and-switch. [quote] DMAE 600mg[/quote] If you indeed have ADHD, this is probably the most important thing for you to take; just take it away from your choline and ALCAR. [quote] HMB 4500mg L-Glutamine 20000mg[/quote] For cognitive purposes [8)] ?? [quote] ALCAR 1000mg[/quote] Good one; but consider a higher dose, take away from other quaternary amines, and see this article on why you should be sure to take R(+)-lipoic acid with acetyl-L-carnitine. A proper ratio is about 2.5:1 ALCAR:R(+)-LA. [quote] Piracetam 2400mg[/quote] Since safety is your (sensible) concern: for long-term use, consider pyroglutamic acid instead, which is orthomolecular. Of course, this whole class of compounds certainly seems to be very safe; this is just extra caution. [quote] Multivitamin http://www.vitacost....earchText=alive[/quote] Your multivitamin sucks . Like nearly all multis, the high-dose retinol roughly doubles your risk of fracture; the alpha-tocopherol levels are sufficient to drive out other E vitamers and may increase your risk of all-cause mortality; life extensionists should probably avoid niacinamide, due to the potential issue of niacinamide’s nullification of the potential anti-aging effects of sirtuins; other, minor issues. AOR has Essential Mix, a powdered multi that solves all of these problems; forthcoming basic and advanced encapsulated multis will also cover these issues. [quote] [quote] That stack is hardly nootropic. Also, the fact that you are also taking amphetamines is, in my opinion, countereffective if you were taking a real nootropic stack. [/quote] Aside from (Hydergine) which I have heard negatives about, what other Nootropic's are there? I mean, Choline, Vinpocetine, PS, DMAE, Glutamine, Piracetam and then ALCAR for energy... what other Nootropic's exist?[/quote] Strictly speaking, none of these are nootropics. While it's common these days to see "nootropic" thrown around as a synonym for "smart drug or nutrient," it properly only refers to pyroglutamate and its analogs (see the post on this linked above). To your health! AOR 1: Lee CK, Pugh TD, Klopp RG, Edwards J, Allison DB, Weindruch R, Prolla TA. The impact of alpha-lipoic acid, coenzyme Q10 and caloric restriction on life span and gene expression patterns in mice. Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Apr 15;36(8):1043-57. 2. Kido Y, Tamai I, Ohnari A, Sai Y, Kagami T, Nezu J, Nikaido H, Hashimoto N, Asano M, Tsuji A. Functional relevance of carnitine transporter OCTN2 to brain distribution of L-carnitine and acetyl-L-carnitine across the blood-brain barrier. J Neurochem. 2001 Dec;79(5):959-69. 3. Wu X, George RL, Huang W, Wang H, Conway SJ, Leibach FH, Ganapathy V. Structural and functional characteristics and tissue distribution pattern of rat OCTN1, an organic cation transporter, cloned from placenta. Biochim Biophys Acta. 2000 Jun 1;1466(1-2):315-27.
#13
pinballwizard
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Posted 19 December 2004 - 10:59 AM
Thanks AOR. Another very valuable, high quality post. Thanks for helping to settle the Soy PS versus bovine PS debate as well as the EPA versus DHA, debate. Also,I guess you said that CDP-choline is a good substitute for bovine PS considering it is no longer on the market--I have Alpha GPC but I will take both now. And also adding that ALCAR, choline, and DMAE share the same transporter to get to the cells--I remember Nootropi talking about this. I take all this at once. Now, I certainly won't. I wonder how long all the cholines and ALCAR stay in your system and how much you should dose at once?My multi-vit has regular niacin and little vitamin A. AOR Feel free to pick it apart though. I take the Iron Free version. http://www.supernutr...m/optipack.html <-- There is an article related to niacin & cognition at the bottom here. http://www.supernutr...ngredients.html(I would be willing to switch if someone recommends a better multi-vitamin for cognition.) I posted this earlier about Ginko from pubmed: According this link ( http://www.pubmedcen...ez&artid=122397 ), rats with ginko biloba counteract some of the gene suppression that is inadvertently done by the EPA and DHA. So both EPA and DHA actually inhibit some other cognitive enhancement (ie “neuroproliferation and differentiation in some brain regions”).
Here is the exact quote:
“On the other hand, the gene encoding transthyretin, which regulates neuroproliferation and differentiation in some brain regions, was suppressed. This gene was up-regulated in mice treated with Ginkgo biloba extract. Gingko biloba is known to counteract some neurological disorders such as loss of short-term memory, lack of attention, or even Alzheimer's disease.”
Also, I personally get some benefits out of ginseng, but it is not labeled, so I could probably assume it is not "Siberian". A 26 year old might get a slight headache from the vasodillators (ginko) Strictly speaking, none of these are nootropics. While it's common these days to see "nootropic" thrown around as a synonym for "smart drug or nutrient," it properly only refers to pyroglutamate and its analogs (see the post on this linked above).
AOR, are you implyingthat the multi -cetam route is the way to go? Because the -cetams make up the bulk of the true nootropics and they have slightly different uses. I notice some people just take lots of piracetam and others get a mix of oxiracetam, Aniracetam, and piracetam and perhaps pramiracetam.
#14
nootropi
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Posted 19 December 2004 - 06:23 PM
Yes, thank you AORsupport. It is great that you give full replies; with the proper citations. However, I would still take everything AORsupport says with a grain of salt; as he frequently refers to his own website for references instead of the medical studies themsleves; I can say with confidence that AORsupport posts what he does with the intent that those reading his posts purchase products from his site; not that there is anything wrong with the desire to profit; however, it often interferes with what may be the best purchase recommendations. For almost every one of AORsupport's claims, I can find a counter example to the contrary; so I would advise you do your own research before blindly believing anything he says; in fact, I would advise you do your own research no matter whom is recommending any supplement to you. You can conduct your own research by entering the name of the supplement you are interested in at the Pubmed database (click here for direct link). Have a happy, safe holiday. 
#15
nootropi
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Posted 19 December 2004 - 06:27 PM
Here is a screenshot of how pubmed works (just enter in a term and the performance quantifier you are seeking, then press "display"): Have fun! Here is an example of what you get: Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2000 Nov;152(4):353-61. Related Articles, Links
The memory enhancing effects of a Ginkgo biloba/Panax ginseng combination in healthy middle-aged volunteers.
Wesnes KA, Ward T, McGinty A, Petrini O.
Cognitive Drug Research Ltd, Reading, UK. keithw@cdr.org.uk
The effects of capsules containing 60 mg of a standardised extract of Ginkgo biloba (GK501) and 100 mg of a standardised extract of Panax ginseng (G115) on various aspects of cognitive function were assessed in healthy middle-aged volunteers. A double blind, placebo controlled, 14 week, parallel group, repeated assessment, multi-centre trial of two dosing regimens, 160 mg b.i.d. and 320 mg o.d. was conducted. Two hundred and fifty-six healthy middle-aged volunteers successfully completed the study. On various study days (weeks 0, 4, 8, 12 and 14) the volunteers performed a selection of tests of attention and memory from the Cognitive Drug Research computerised cognitive assessment system prior to morning dosing and again, at 1, 3 and 6 h later. The volunteers also completed questionnaires about mood states, quality of life and sleep quality. The Ginkgo/ginseng combination was found significantly to improve an Index of Memory Quality, supporting a previous finding with the compound. This effect represented an average improvement of 7.5% and reflected improvements to a number of different aspects of memory, including working and long-term memory. This enhancement to memory was seen throughout the 12-week dosing period and also after a 2-week washout. This represents the first substantial demonstration of improvements to the memory of healthy middle-aged volunteers produced by a phytopharmaceutical.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 11140327 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
So this is a science-tested and proven example of true synergy! Interestingly, the results are best when the two compounds are combined! So that proves that AORsupport's conclusion with respect to ozone's combination of ginseng and gingko may in fact be dead wrong.However, I do believe that AORsupport has a lot of integrity regarding safety of nutritional supplements. If you are not going to test your supplements for metals and purity, you would surely be safe buying all of your LE supplements from AOR. I have to give him hats off for his #1 quality control. HOWEVER, the prices on his products make it impossible for 95% of life-extensionists to purchase his products. However, for the life-extensionist with an infinite buget, should buy products such as L-carnosine, benfotiamine, and pyrodoxamine dihydrochloride from AOR. [thumb]
To see proof of AORsupport's unbeatable quality control procedures (and his maturity and willingness to convince his customers of his integrity):View these posts (click here)!
Edited by nootropi, 19 December 2004 - 07:30 PM.
#16
scottl
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Posted 19 December 2004 - 07:40 PM
1. The study you quoted is in "healthy middle-aged volunteers", ozone is 26.
2. As I said above eleutherococcus ("siberian ginseng") IS NOT panax ginseng. It would help if you had either read my previous post or knew about herbs.
3. So now that 1fast400 has provided a put up or shup up offer and you can't attack him any longer you're going back to AORsupport, your previous target??
You seem to have a large anger management problem i.e. you have anger in you related to....previous stuff in your life, and use the boards to vent it. Like almost everyone else on two boards I'm tired of it.
4. I know of no one on the planet who is perfect, and while I do not agree with AORsupport 100% of the time he I believe he is correct probably 99% of the time. He has been proven correct about phosphatidyl serine (if you have any doubt see recent morelife.yahoo for Paul Wakfer's comments), about bioperine, and I have seen no data to contradict him on ibendnone (sp?).
#17
nootropi
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Posted 19 December 2004 - 08:16 PM
[quote name='scottl']1. The study you quoted is in "healthy middle-aged volunteers", ozone is 26.
2. As I said above eleutherococcus ("siberian ginseng") IS NOT panax ginseng. It would help if you had either read my previous post or knew about herbs.
3. So now that 1fast400 has provided a put up or shup up offer and you can't attack him any longer you're going back to AORsupport, your previous target??
You seem to have a large anger management problem i.e. you have anger in you related to....previous stuff in your life, and use the boards to vent it. Like almost everyone else on two boards I'm tired of it.
4. I know of no one on the planet who is perfect, and while I do not agree with AORsupport 100% of the time he I believe he is correct probably 99% of the time. He has been proven correct about phosphatidyl serine (if you have any doubt see recent morelife.yahoo for Paul Wakfer's comments), about bioperine, and I have seen no data to contradict him on ibendnone (sp?).[/quote]
Scottl: I must present to you a meaningful quote that answers your query:
Truth is after all a moving target
Hairs to split
And pieces that don't fit
How can anybody be enlightened?
Truth is after all so poorly lit.
Rush. "Turn the Page."
I have nothing to say. Draw your own conclusions. No, I will help you:
[quote name='http://www.qconline.com/myword/truth.html']Herein lies a cautionary tale about the nature of information. Every word the reporters said was true. It was merely incomplete. The cameras were steadily focused due south toward the river, which means they missed three fourths of the picture -- AS DO ANY OF US, even when we consciously strive for a panoramic view. Had they turned their cameras northward, the TV audience would have understood how unendangered most of us were, because they would have seen a city built almost entirely on hills that head upward at a forty degree gradient.
I suspect all our knowledge is similarly flawed and incomplete. Those who search for answers, will find them -- but only to questions observers and reporters of the past thought to ask and answer. History and science are only provisionally true, subject always to revision when different questions are asked, new documents discovered, previously unknown fossils and archaeological objects unearthed. Most people assumed the tales of Homer were legends, and enjoyed them solely as literature. Because Schliemann believed they were historical truth, he asked a different question: where was Troy located? Using the clues in Homer's work to calculate where it was, he found it, excavated it, and discovered its treasures.
Sources we rely on may be wrong because people were actively trying to distort the historical record with self-serving explanations of events. But even conscientious, truthful observers may have been incapable of seeing the events through any lens but that of their own beliefs and experience -- think how few accounts there are of southern history as told by slaves or by economically marginalized whites.
People who write accounts of events in letters or diaries or newspapers may be casual or limited observers, paying attention only to aspects of the situation that concern them directly -- a Humane Society volunteer rescuing stranded animals by boat sees a flood differently than the head of the water treatment plant who's concerned only with keeping the muddy river out, or the owner of the minor league baseball team who's trying to find another homefield for his team and figuring out how much it's going to cost him.
Even if we assemble a montage of all those different viewpoints, we have to assume our information is still incomplete. So, a little humility is called for when we use evidence to prove our point, a little awareness that the evidence may change, and our arguments with them. We need to remember that something can be true and nonetheless wrong. Truth is, after all, so dimly lit. [/quote]
Have a happy holiday.
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Posted 21 December 2004 - 08:03 AM
@AORsupport
Thanks for the detailed post. I don't have time atm to reply to everything but I wanted to at least mention something tonight regarding your reply about the Omega-3 DHA/EPA studies you posted. All your studies either used "only" EPA, or "only" DHA. None of them used a combination of both EPA+DHA and compared the effects. Indeed, both have vastly different effects on the body, but that doesn't mean that taking both is bad. Your studies simply say that taking only one kind is bad; which is why I take both. [thumb]
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