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Is Quercetin a problem with Resveratrol?


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#61 bixbyte

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 02:35 PM

 

Could the mixed studies on Quercetin be due to the fact that it inhibits CD38 ?

Certainly the inhibition of cd38 is responsible for some of the effects of quercetin.

CD38 is not necessarily a bad thing. You can live without it -- some organisms, including people, cannot produce it, due to a mutation -- but that causes a lot of health problems.

However, the downregulation of cd38 might be a good thing, especially in conjunction with resveratrol, as I suggested in the very active thread on the important recent study on mitochondria in the aging cell.  See the many references in:

http://www.longecity...-strikes-again/

 

This is the Gomes, et. al. paper in Cell:

 

http://www.cell.com/...8674(13)01521-3

 

Declining NAD+ Induces a Pseudohypoxic State Disrupting Nuclear-Mitochondrial Communication during Aging

 

At issue is the NAD+ / NADH ratio. In old cells, NADH begins to predominate, resulting in mitochondrial malfunction.  Resveratrol promotes an NAD+ synthesis pathway, while CD38, as an "NAD-ase" catalyses the reduction of NAD+ .  So resveratrol and quercetin in combination, by affecting both the "supply side" and the "demand side," may shift the balance back towards NAD+.

 

The larger question is, why does this ratio shift with age?  I sure don't know, but consider that cd38 is active in the immune response, and that many diseases of aging are now thought to result from chronic inflammation.  So perhaps NADH is up because cd38 is up because there is inflammation from -- something.  Many phytophenols like resveratrol and quercetin are regarded as anti-inflammatories.  So what you are doing here, maybe, is suppressing the immune response to avoid autoimmune damage to healthy tissue.

 

If this is even remotely correct, then the even larger issue is, "What's causing the inflammation in the first place?"  We like to think, oh, it's just "old age," but that's about as informative as blaming it on demons or sea monsters.  My suspicion, and this goes way off topic, is that refined carbohydrate consumption, especially, added sugars, is an important root cause here, but that is a topic for some other thread.
 

 

 

 

So If I do not ingest sugar and partake of Resveratrol with other supplements I might live longer?

You make it sound so simple.

Currently, I am watching my 88 y/o Mother in Law rapidly decline in a Nursing Home.

But what I find interesting is this 103 year old blind lady that lives on Cake and Candy.

I notice she can eat and talk at the same time so I can rule out Dementia / Alzheimer.

If I knew her secret to life extension then I would be pleased. 

My Point: Everyone believes sugar is evil and Resveratrol encourages longevity.

 

 

 



#62 cudBwrong

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:04 PM

So If I do not ingest sugar and partake of Resveratrol with other supplements I might live longer?
You make it sound so simple.
Currently, I am watching my 88 y/o Mother in Law rapidly decline in a Nursing Home.
But what I find interesting is this 103 year old blind lady that lives on Cake and Candy.
I notice she can eat and talk at the same time so I can rule out Dementia / Alzheimer.
If I knew her secret to life extension then I would be pleased. 
My Point: Everyone believes sugar is evil and Resveratrol encourages longevity.


I didn't mean to make it sound simple, because it isn't. I think resveratrol is a good idea for many people, and the addition of piperine may improve its bioavailability. I think a high purity product is also a good idea. The one side effect I attribute to my use of resveratrol is MGD, dry eyes, but this is manageable for me. It may be due to the fact that resveratrol downregulates ppar gamma, which is involved in fat synthesis.

I would be more cautious with quercetin, because it suppresses thyroid function, perhaps significantly. I take it for a retina disease, but I have to start watching my thyroid. I've added rutin because it has some retina benefit, probably, and it upregulates the thyroid. Resveratrol also upregulates the thyroid. If you don't have a specific condition you are trying to treat, I would be cautious with quercetin, maybe a low dose, or alternate days. Watch the NAD+ / NADH threads on this forum for rapidly changing developments about NAD+ there is a fury of activity going on.

My retina doc thinks my resveratrol /quercetin combination may be working, so I'm strongly motivated to continue for that reason.

I do believe that avoiding sugar, and taking resveratrol, and possibly quercetin or something else might help you stay healthy longer. I think the evidence on sugar is strong at this point, perhaps I'll contribute to or start a thread in the appropriate place on this forum.

Edited by cudBwrong, 18 April 2014 - 06:06 PM.


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#63 Thell

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 01:13 AM

While reading through the marketing (science) literature on pteroPure Pterostilbene - Science - Comparisons with Resveratrol they state

 

 

Pterostilbene also has a much longer half life in the blood than resveratrol (105 minutes vs. 14 minutes)2,3, and has shown higher bioactivity in methods to improve heart health and reduce the effects of oxidative stress.4,5  Pterostilbene and resveratrol are synergistic however, with improved ability to protect against oxidative damage when taken together.6

6.  Antioxidant Effect of trans-Resveratrol, Pterostilbene, Quercetin and Their Combinations in Human Erythrocytes In Vitro: R. Mikstacka et al.; Plant Foods Hum Nutr. 65, 57 (2010)

 

 

My interest was pterostilbene/resveratrol synergy and not Quercetin, but when this thread came up in a longecity site search and this study wasn't cited I wondered why...

 

* I only found access to this document via university library access.

Abstract

There is evidence that a diet rich in fruit and vegetables may reduce the risk of cancer and other degenerative diseases. However, potential health impact of bioactive phytochemicals is limited by their low amount and relatively poor bioavailability. It has been suggested that the health benefits associated with fruit and red wine consumption could be due to the whole antioxidant pool of the diet microcomponents. In this study, the antioxidant activities of trans-resveratrol, pterostilbene and quercetin, and the effect of their combination were investigated in human erythrocytes in vitro. H(2)O(2)-induced lipid peroxidation was assessed by measuring the amount of thiobarbituric acid reactive species. Quercetin and pterostilbene protected erythrocyte membranes against lipid peroxidation (IC(50) values = 64 +/- 8.7 microM and 44.5 +/- 7.8 microM, respectively). Resveratrol was significantly less effective. However, the three compounds protected the erythocytes against hemolysis and GSH (reduced glutathione) depletion to the same extent. Combinations consisting of two compounds (molar ratio 1:1) influenced lipid peroxidation in a concentration-dependent manner. At lower concentrations, resveratrol with quercetin or pterostilbene inhibited synergistically the oxidative injury of membrane lipids At higher concentrations, an additive effect was observed. These protective effects may partially explain the health benefit of these bioactive microcomponents when together in the diet.

→ source (external link)

 

 

In conclusion, the phytochemicals quercetin, trans-resveratrol and pterostilbene efficiently protect human erythrocytes against oxidative injury. Moreover, the synergistic and additive effect of combination of these phytochemicals may contribute to the chemopreventive potential of fruits and vegetable diets containing in these compounds.

 

The dates of the study and publication are well before this thread, perhaps it was missed, or it was dismissed as off the OP topic, or dismissed for another reason which would call into question the pteroPure claim?

 



#64 maxwatt

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 01:30 AM

They protect human erythrocytes in vitro but the effects are not thought to apply in vivo.  The issue is complicated, but I avoid quercetin as a supplement while still using resveratrol


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#65 Isabeau

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 05:09 AM

This thread answers but creates so many questions, so great and so frustrating! I'm really glad I found it though!
 

If I could get help on the following matters, I'd be deeply greatful:

 

I have Mast Cell Activation Syndrome and currently take Quercetin with Bromelin (800mg-200mg) in the evening for its mast cell stabilizing properties.

I was thinking of adding Luteolin for the same reason. I don't know if it's worth mentionning but I take Curamin and LIFE EXTENSION Advanced Bio-Curcumin with Ginger & Turmerones for their myriad of benefits as well as Holy Basil as an H2 antagonist.

 

I learned to my dismay from this thread that Quercetin supresses Thyroid function, mine is already not doing well because of the MCAS. However someone mentionned that Resveratol upregulates it. Is it possible that taking Resveratol (in the AM as suggested) might cancel out the Thyroid suppressing properties of the Quercetin?

 

If which case, what would be more advantageous, taking Luteolin with Resveratol, substituting the Luteolin for the Resveratol or would I only know experimenting with both to see which seems to work best?

 

Advance thanks to anyone who could take the time to reply to this!!



#66 Isabeau

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 01:43 PM

I found this study that says: "resveratrol can act as a thyroid disruptor, which indicates the need for caution as a supplement and in therapeutic use."

 

:|o



#67 cudBwrong

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 09:01 AM


I learned to my dismay from this thread that Quercetin supresses Thyroid function, mine is already not doing well because of the MCAS. However someone mentionned that Resveratol upregulates it. Is it possible that taking Resveratol (in the AM as suggested) might cancel out the Thyroid suppressing properties of the Quercetin?

 

Do you remember the old TV commercial, where the actor says, "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV?"  Well, I'm not a doctor, or even an actor so discuss everything with your physicians.

 

I am taking resveratrol and quercetin as an experimental therapy for a retina disease (Mactel Type 2).  So far, it may be helping, but it's hard to say because (thankfully) this disease moves slowly. 

 

I began to notice a lot of fatigue, especially after meals, and I located this study which reports that quercetin suppresses the thyroid:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24447974

 

Subsequently I noticed another study which reported that rutin, which is a molecule related to quercetin (it is a glycoside of quercetin) has an opposite effect, and increases thyroid activity:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24023911

 

Now I don't like to take pills to counteract my pills, but I noted that rutin is found in many foods and I could find little in the way of bad side effects.

 

I tried rutin and felt less fatigue immediately.  Then I noticed that I was taking 500mg of quercetin and 250mg of rutin -- no specific reason, those were the sizes I happened to buy.  So I increased the rutin to 500mg and I felt completely normal, in terms of fatigue, immediately.

 

My physician tested my thyroid function and everything has come back normal.  I've doing this for over a year and I have had no issues.

 

Your mileage may vary.  Good luck.


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#68 cudBwrong

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 10:04 AM

 

If I could get help on the following matters, I'd be deeply greatful:

 

I have Mast Cell Activation Syndrome and currently take Quercetin with Bromelin (800mg-200mg) in the evening for its mast cell stabilizing properties.

Just another quick note for Isabeau, you may be on the right track with quercetin and MCAS, you may be interested in this (free fulltext):

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22470478

 

 

PLoS One. 2012;7(3):e33805. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0033805. Epub 2012 Mar 28.
Quercetin is more effective than cromolyn in blocking human mast cell cytokine release and inhibits contact dermatitis and photosensitivity in humans.
Author information
  • 1Molecular Immunopharmacology and Drug Discovery Laboratory, Department of Molecular Physiology and Pharmacology, Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, Massachusetts, United States of America.
Abstract

Mast cells are immune cells critical in the pathogenesis of allergic, but also inflammatory and autoimmune diseases through release of many pro-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-8 and TNF. Contact dermatitis and photosensitivity are skin conditions that involve non-immune triggers such as substance P (SP), and do not respond to conventional treatment. Inhibition of mast cell cytokine release could be effective therapy for such diseases. Unfortunately, disodium cromoglycate (cromolyn), the only compound marketed as a mast cell "stabilizer", is not particularly effective in blocking human mast cells. Instead, flavonoids are potent anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory compounds with mast cell inhibitory actions. Here, we first compared the flavonoid quercetin (Que) and cromolyn on cultured human mast cells. Que and cromolyn (100 µM) can effectively inhibit secretion of histamine and PGD(2). Que and cromolyn also inhibit histamine, leukotrienes and PGD(2) from primary human cord blood-derived cultured mast cells (hCBMCs) stimulated by IgE/Anti-IgE. However, Que is more effective than cromolyn in inhibiting IL-8 and TNF release from LAD2 mast cells stimulated by SP. Moreover, Que reduces IL-6 release from hCBMCs in a dose-dependent manner. Que inhibits cytosolic calcium level increase and NF-kappa B activation. Interestingly, Que is effective prophylactically, while cromolyn must be added together with the trigger or it rapidly loses its effect. In two pilot, open-label, clinical trials, Que significantly decreased contact dermatitis and photosensitivity, skin conditions that do not respond to conventional treatment. In summary, Que is a promising candidate as an effective mast cell inhibitor for allergic and inflammatory diseases, especially in formulations that permit more sufficient oral absorption.



#69 Isabeau

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 03:53 PM

I tried rutin and felt less fatigue immediately.  Then I noticed that I was taking 500mg of quercetin and 250mg of rutin -- no specific reason, those were the sizes I happened to buy.  So I increased the rutin to 500mg and I felt completely normal, in terms of fatigue, immediately.

 

My physician tested my thyroid function and everything has come back normal.  I've doing this for over a year and I have had no issues.

 

Your mileage may vary.  Good luck.

 

That's fantastic, good for you!

I'm really glad you posted this, the interesting thing is that I used to take NeuroProtek, which has Luteolin, Quercetin and Rutin, but you have to take 2 caps per 20kg of weight, so it became a luxury product at 45.00$/60caps

 


Just another quick note for Isabeau, you may be on the right track with quercetin and MCAS, you may be interested in this (free fulltext):

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22470478

 

I actually saw this study, this is why I decided to go with only Quercetin. Now I see that there is good reason to reintroduce Rutin in the mix! Thank you! I'll get all three separately. I'm not a huge fan of taking many pills, but have gotten used to it and I'm at the phase of whatever works and is reasonable is fine with me :)

 

Thanks for the answer, I really appreciate it!



#70 Isabeau

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 04:03 PM

As an aside, do you know if there are some of those supplements where the brand is important? I have briefly looked up their bioavailability and it seemed fine.



#71 cudBwrong

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 04:38 PM

As an aside, do you know if there are some of those supplements where the brand is important? I have briefly looked up their bioavailability and it seemed fine.

 

For resveratrol, I think it is important to choose a brand that is highly purified and verified by an independent lab.  Resveratrol of unspecified purity probably contains a lot of emodin, since emodin is also produced by the same plants that are a commercial source for resveratrol.  Emodin is a stimulant laxative, which is not necessarily bad in small doses, but over time it will cause the symptoms of laxative abuse, including, paradoxically, constipation.  This occurred in my case, and my physician found a condition called melanosis coli.  It seems to be a benign condition, but he asked if I was taking a lot of Senekot, which is a brand of laxative.  I did some research and concluded that the cause was the low purity brand of resveratrol I was taking.  The symptoms disappeared when I switched to a high purity brand.  (There are several of these available).

 

I would like to find a high purity quercetin, but I have not seen one on the market at a resonable price.

 

Resveratrol has very poor bioavailability, but it is very significantly enhanced by piperine, which is a component of ordinary black pepper.

 

The peak bloodstream concentration is enhanced 15 times:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21714124

 

Quercetin seems to have pretty good bioavailability.  Piperine might enhance it, but I have not seen any studies of it:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23094941

 

Piperine seems to affect a number of substances:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23620848
 


Edited by cudBwrong, 13 June 2015 - 04:41 PM.


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#72 Isabeau

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 04:52 PM

I should have been more specific, I'll stick to Luteolin, Quercetin and Rutin for now. This thread seemed to indicate that Resveratol may be substituted for Luteolin and I'm more interested in Luteolin, for it's amazing mast cell stabilizing properties. But I'd like to give a go to Resveratol in the future, so the information you took the time to post is useful, thanks :)

 

I read this with great interest (well, the bits I did understand :P): Twenty-first century mast cell stabilizers

 

 

Within the flavone class, the most active mast cell stabilizers are luteolin, disometin and apigenin. Using anti-IgE to elicit degranulation, luteolin inhibited the release of histamine, LTs, PG2 and GM-CSF from human cultured mast cells (HCMCs) in a concentration-dependent manner (1–100 μM) (Kimata et al., 2000b). Luteolin also suppressed the production of proinflammatory cytokines TNF-α and IL-6 in bone marrow-derived cultured murine mast cells (BMMCs) (Kimata et al., 2000a). Luteolin and apigenin were strong inhibitors of production of IL-4 by purified basophils following combined challenge with anti-IgE and IL-3 (Hirano et al., 2006).

 


Edited by Isabeau, 13 June 2015 - 04:52 PM.





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