35 replies to this topic

[tepol]

I have problem with the idea of what Immortality is and what is means because Im not convinced its so great an idea , and heres why.

Lots of spiritual traditions or paths are aware that level of suffering is usually required to become self aware ( or present at all times ) through practice, this in sense is immortality as your fully engaged in every breath of what you do on far greater level than is what achievable mentally or physically alone , this problem with this however is that is still obviously requires a certain level of mental and physical wll being in order to achieve that.

if you eliminate that however and that threat you take away one of the biggest motivating factors for humans for being alive ( the same reason people pay to dive out off planes or bungie jump ) , and precisely what we done get when we feel safe .

Now Im perfectly cool with the idea some exceptionally passionate folk would put this to good use , but I can also see bigger problems ahead that could lead to bragging rights / power race to hypothetically acquire the mantle of greatest of human alive .

So thats something else, or one of many scenarios , about this that worries me. and personally why Id feel eliminating death would paradoxically kill us in other ways instead , specifically by encouraging our egos in ways we cant even handle now , let alone with even more time to become obese or roll in our self pity.

Wed no longer have anything to keep us honest , live for as its only suffering / death , and how we rise above or fall to it , that make us value who we truly are in the end, and without that what would the challange be ?


tepol

Edited by tepol, 21 March 2011 - 11:47 AM.

[firespin]

I have problem with the idea of what Immortality is and what is means because Im not convinced its so great an idea , and heres why.

Lots of spiritual traditions or paths are aware that level of suffering is usually required to become self aware ( or present at all times ) through practice, this in sense is immortality as your fully engaged in every breath of what you do on far greater level than is what achievable mentally or physically alone , this problem with this however is that is still obviously requires a certain level of mental and physical wll being in order to achieve that.

What actually is your definition of "self aware"? Immortality is not going to end suffering, it will just end aging. A immortal person would go through the same general sufferings as any other person. I would think a Immortal would have more of any type of "self-awareness" than anyone because of experience gained by living longer. A immortal person would definitely have more self-awareness than any dead person, because the dead is not aware of anything since they do not exist anymore.

if you eliminate that however and that threat you take away one of the biggest motivating factors for humans for being alive ( the same reason people pay to dive out off planes or bungie jump ) , and precisely what we done get when we feel safe .

If someone do not want to be immortal because they feel motivated by death, then they are free to not take any treatments. Most people don't even use death as motivation. How many people who succeed in life or done great accomplishments ever claimed, "I was motivated to do ____________ because I am going to die"? Most people are motivated by simpler things such as wanting a better life, progress, or fame.

Now Im perfectly cool with the idea some exceptionally passionate folk would put this to good use , but I can also see bigger problems ahead that could lead to bragging rights / power race to hypothetically acquire the mantle of greatest of human alive .

If someone want to become immortal to make the world a better place that is great. If someone want to become immortal so they can create the largest collection of porn videos that is fine too. People should have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies, and not be dictated by other people opinions of what is moral. Society do not own its citizens, nor should have the right to decide who gets to live longer or die.

So thats something else, or one of many scenarios , about this that worries me. and personally why Id feel eliminating death would paradoxically kill us in other ways instead , specifically by encouraging our egos in ways we cant even handle now , let alone with even more time to become obese or roll in our self pity.

You do not know this as a fact, since there have never been a immortal human before. Even with your scenario, a immortal still have a choice to change, but a dead person never will.

Wed no longer have anything to keep us honest , live for as its only suffering / death , and how we rise above or fall to it , that make us value who we truly are in the end, and without that what would the challange be ?

tepol

I don't see how dying keeps anyone honest, matter of fact dying encourages lying and stealing. If a person know they are going to die, there is a good chance they will be more selfish, and more willing to do anything to get what they want even if it cause harm before they die. You can't punish anyone once they are dead.

If you are going to live forever and see the same people for the next 500 years, chances are you are going to want to be a more honest person to prevent conflict. I believe a lot of crimes would also go down, as no one actually wants to experience living 250 years of jail, or lose out a immortal life by the death penalty.

I value myself because of life and living, not death.

Edited by firespin, 22 March 2011 - 05:44 AM.

[thughes]

I have a hard time getting my head around some of the philosophical objections to immortality. Just say no to over-philosophizing. Go out and watch a butterfly, hug a bunny... none of us has any idea what life will be like after even 1000 years, and decisions based on fear, uncertainty, and armchair philosophical extensions into the unknown are poor decisions.

This sounds similar to the familiar "life is worthwhile because you are going to die" objection. Now I can see where that one started. Say you love a chocolate cake. If you have it daily you'll get bored. Law of diminishing returns. But say you only have it once. Is that going to make it more special? No. Eventually you will forget what it tasted like. Eventually it will become meaningless.

Life isn't more worthwhile because you are going to die. After you die, it simply becomes meaningless.

Lots of spiritual traditions or paths are aware that level of suffering is usually required to become self aware ( or present at all times ) through practice, this in sense is immortality as your fully engaged in every breath of what you do on far greater level than is what achievable mentally or physically alone , this problem with this however is that is still obviously requires a certain level of mental and physical wll being in order to achieve that.

Never trust a spiritual tradition. They are heavily involved in coping mechanisms.

That being said, its unclear what you actually meant here.

If you eliminate that however and that threat you take away one of the biggest motivating factors for humans for being alive ( the same reason people pay to dive out off planes or bungie jump ) , and precisely what we done get when we feel safe .

My prime motivating factor for being alive is simply that I love life. (Not everyone loves life, although I could wish humanity could remove at least some of the reasons for that...).

There's a bit of a push and pull with risk. In one way, if you have a short time you are way more likely to take a risk, as you only live once... In the other way, if you live a long time you remove the health and security worries regarding old age, and you are therefore way more likely to take a risk, as it won't leave you trapped. It will be interesting to see how that plays out with expanding lifespans.

- Tracy

Edited by thughes, 22 March 2011 - 04:48 PM.

[tepol]

Well i just spent 25 mins trying to edit this so i could reply nicely , and with one accidental swift press of backspace its all gone..

Such is life.. I cant even escape death's grip at keyboard.

Edited by tepol, 22 March 2011 - 05:02 PM.

[tepol]

I have a hard time getting my head around some of the philosophical objections to immortality. Just say no to over-philosophizing. Go out and watch a butterfly, hug a bunny... none of us has any idea what life will be like after even 1000 years, and decisions based on fear, uncertainty, and armchair philosophical extensions into the unknown are poor decisions.

This sounds similar to the familiar "life is worthwhile because you are going to die" objection. Now I can see where that one started. Say you love a chocolate cake. If you have it daily you'll get bored. Law of diminishing returns. But say you only have it once. Is that going to make it more special? No. Eventually you will forget what it tasted like. Eventually it will become meaningless.

Life isn't more worthwhile because you are going to die. After you die, it simply becomes meaningless.

Lots of spiritual traditions or paths are aware that level of suffering is usually required to become self aware ( or present at all times ) through practice, this in sense is immortality as your fully engaged in every breath of what you do on far greater level than is what achievable mentally or physically alone , this problem with this however is that is still obviously requires a certain level of mental and physical wll being in order to achieve that.

Never trust a spiritual tradition. They are heavily involved in coping mechanisms.

That being said, its unclear what you actually meant here.

If you eliminate that however and that threat you take away one of the biggest motivating factors for humans for being alive ( the same reason people pay to dive out off planes or bungie jump ) , and precisely what we done get when we feel safe .

My prime motivating factor for being alive is simply that I love life. (Not everyone loves life, although I could wish humanity could remove at least some of the reasons for that...).

- Tracy

Love is an overused word, and like all words hinge on the decription you give it , not necssarily the same as everyone elses, or what someone like a Dictator or Tyrant might think,, when thinking of " love " or how they express it.

This another reason we have so many problems , we simply misinterpt and assume things we think to be true and universally accepted when its not . ( seel below )

GOFUCKYOURSELF ( Incase anyone asks no , I am not a follower , its just a good example of what I meant in my statement above )

Thas seperation or as I call it Ego , and what we see glorified in out culture as the universal persuit of happniess and love.

If you give everyone their own dream to persue that to its end regarless of the cost , you tell me whats going to happen ?

How will you prevent that from happneing when it happens without creating more rules instead, that by default encourage the law maker to be the law breaker in order to enforce them and therfore become hypocrite too .

Would you trust hypocrite , and what point will that hypocrite no longer give you the choice ?

T

Edited by tepol, 22 March 2011 - 06:04 PM.

[thughes]

Love is an overused word, and like all words hinge on the decription you give it , not necssarily the same as everyone elses, or what someone like a Dictator or Tyrant might think,, when thinking of " love " or how they express it.

Yes, different people have different reasons for enjoying life. So what?

Thas seperation or as I call it Ego , and what we see glorified in out culture as the universal persuit of happniess and love.

If you give everyone their own dream to persue that to its end regarless of the cost , you tell me whats going to happen ?

Human societies tend to make rules when people's needs/desires conflict. That's how people have historically dealt with this problem. Extreme life extension will not change this. If you think it will, the onus is on you to prove it, as that would be a big departure from historical human behaviour.

One does not have to have absolutely everything one wants to be happy enough to want to continue living, so having reasonable rules is not an impediment to enjoying life for the vast majority.

How will you prevent that from happneing when it happens without creating more rules instead, that by default encourage the law maker to be the law breaker in order to enforce them and therfore become hypocrite too .

Strawman. No one argued that societies should not have rules. (Strawmen make conversations uninteresting).

You appear to be arguing that people will become more egotistical if they have extreme longevity, and that this is bad. Do you have any real evidence that this will happen? As far as I can see, its entirely possible exactly the opposite will happen.

- Tracy

Edited by thughes, 23 March 2011 - 05:54 PM.

[Loot Perish]

I live for myself, not for somebody else's idea of what the human race ought to be. I mean, yes, if the USA were a democracy (it's not, but just supposin') if you and the majority want to create laws to outlaw immortalism, then you might be able to keep it from us, but that does not mean I have to agree with your ideas about restricting immortalism because of what you think the human race ought to be. I disagree and in fact I could not care less about whether you think I should be allowed to be immortal.

If you want to die, then die!

Leave me alone....

[tepol]

Love is an overused word, and like all words hinge on the decription you give it , not necssarily the same as everyone elses, or what someone like a Dictator or Tyrant might think,, when thinking of " love " or how they express it.

Yes, different people have different reasons for enjoying life. So what?



You misunderstand me ,this has nothing to do with reason

Thas seperation or as I call it Ego , and what we see glorified in out culture as the universal persuit of happniess and love.

If you give everyone their own dream to persue that to its end regarless of the cost , you tell me whats going to happen ?

Human societies tend to make rules when people's needs/desires conflict. That's how people have historically dealt with this problem. Extreme life extension will not change this. If you think it will, the onus is on you to prove it, as that would be a big departure from historical human behaviour.

One does not have to have absolutely everything one wants to be happy enough to want to continue living, so having reasonable rules is not an impediment to enjoying life for the vast majority.


On the contrary I think it will create more rules , which when you think about it ,creates another dilmea unless your idea of immortality is being a slave

My point was how do you govern that kind of power without offending someone and eventually leading to more problems ? ( see last posters reply )

To lust or desire anything atuomatically means your operating from pure ego rather than from selfless point of view , desire does not take easily to being rejected or refused which is why ego that manifests it .

It is powerful tool ,but it isdangerous tool regardless of whether in the hands of fool or intellect, there is nothing wrong with desire in itself if you walk it away from it , but how many can do that when tempted by fate ?

Regardless of what law you make there will be someone with the desire to do the opposite as sure as there is life and death.

How will you prevent that from happneing when it happens without creating more rules instead, that by default encourage the law maker to be the law breaker in order to enforce them and therfore become hypocrite too .

Strawman. No one argued that societies should not have rules. (Strawmen make conversations uninteresting).

Nor was I , but what you dont realise is that with needing rules you really havent escaped anything , you will still have seperation ( which as you said yourself is created through a conflict of desires ) and therefore also must means you have no more idea of who you are, than before you became immortal.

Doesnt really make much sense does it , if your not aware of yourself how can you be immortal ?

Afterall would you let someone drive vehicle if they didnt know they were even it , and yet this how most live today , ot the extent everything including the planet and themsevles suffer for it.

Has longer lifespans or technology made them more aware of that, and their self destructive behaviour ?

If you cant understand the significance of the role death plays in governing that,with the little time you have left , its very unlikely your going to do so when death no longer exists.

This is the paradox at the heart of existence .

As the capterpillar said , " Who are you ? "


You appear to be arguing that people will become more egotistical if they have extreme longevity, and that this is bad. Do you have any real evidence that this will happen? As far as I can see, its entirely possible exactly the opposite will happen.

- Tracy

Plenty

Heres a quote from the last poster.


" I disagree and in fact I could not care less about whether you think I should be allowed to be immortal. "



T

Edited by tepol, 25 March 2011 - 09:01 PM.

[tepol]

I live for myself, not for somebody else's idea of what the human race ought to be. I mean, yes, if the USA were a democracy (it's not, but just supposin') if you and the majority want to create laws to outlaw immortalism, then you might be able to keep it from us, but that does not mean I have to agree with your ideas about restricting immortalism because of what you think the human race ought to be. I disagree and in fact I could not care less about whether you think I should be allowed to be immortal.

If you want to die, then die!

Leave me alone....

In retrospect this post , is actually a pretty good example of what I meant by a lack of awareness .and how it can serve as a hazard ( both to one's self and to others )

Afterall If the poster truly didnt care what I think , then why bother to tell me ?

T

Edited by tepol, 25 March 2011 - 09:47 PM.

[firespin]

Plenty

Heres a quote from the last poster.


" I disagree and in fact I could not care less about whether you think I should be allowed to be immortal. "



T

That is not proof as that poster is a mortal, not a immortal. He is not saying anything wrong either. Only a fool would care if someone he does not know think he should be immortal. You don't own him, he was not born for you, and he has a right to do whatever he want with his body, just as you with yours.

History shown that the attitude where people believe they should decide what others deserve is dangerous, and leads to socialism, dictatorships, statism, tyrants, and religious fanatics. That is why the US is not a true democracy, to prevent power-hungry freaks from
gaining power to control what other people do..

If you don't want to be immortal fine, you have a right to choose what to do with your body...but then what is your point of visiting this forum? No one can convince you to change your mind, as you already chose what you want.

Edited by firespin, 26 March 2011 - 10:06 AM.

[ForEverMore]

tepol:
Wow, your philosophy is somewhat twisted.

The challenge would be that we could live a thousand lives and each one could be different. I don't need "thrills" or the threat of death to be "in the moment" or "feel" that I'm doing something worthy. What I do need is an extra few thousand years or so. I'd like to be a doctor in the next millennium, maybe an artist after that. I'd like to learn many professions and read many more books and experience life much longer than we currently do. It would take thousands of years for me to accomplish all that I wanted.

If you feel a need to perish so you can feel "in the moment" now then so be it. But don't drag us down with you.

[tepol]

tepol:
Wow, your philosophy is somewhat twisted.

The challenge would be that we could live a thousand lives and each one could be different. I don't need "thrills" or the threat of death to be "in the moment" or "feel" that I'm doing something worthy. What I do need is an extra few thousand years or so. I'd like to be a doctor in the next millennium, maybe an artist after that. I'd like to learn many professions and read many more books and experience life much longer than we currently do. It would take thousands of years for me to accomplish all that I wanted.

If you feel a need to perish so you can feel "in the moment" now then so be it. But don't drag us down with you.

Have you ever lost something permanently i.e. a limb , a sense , someone you were close too yet ?

Ego and Death is what motivates people , not something , " worthy " if you dont believe me just look at how much US spends on military research , now why do you think that is ?

Is it because having more weapons is a worthy cause ( whatever that means ) ?

I suggest you look again , specifically at those times in your life youve exceeded your own expectation , and then ask yourself why ..

Tepol

[firespin]

Have you ever lost something permanently i.e. a limb , a sense , someone you were close too yet ?

Ego and Death is what motivates people , not something , " worthy " if you dont believe me just look at how much US spends on military research , now why do you think that is ?

Is it because having more weapons is a worthy cause ( whatever that means ) ?

I suggest you look again , specifically at those times in your life youve exceeded your own expectation , and then ask yourself why ..

Tepol

That example you gave would only suggest what motivates the military to create weapons that can kill, and is not representative of what motivates the majority of people. The military is controlled by its country's government, and is NOT the same as the everyday common citizen.

Edited by firespin, 31 March 2011 - 07:48 AM.

[tepol]

Have you ever lost something permanently i.e. a limb , a sense , someone you were close too yet ?

Ego and Death is what motivates people , not something , " worthy " if you dont believe me just look at how much US spends on military research , now why do you think that is ?

Is it because having more weapons is a worthy cause ( whatever that means ) ?

I suggest you look again , specifically at those times in your life youve exceeded your own expectation , and then ask yourself why ..

Tepol

That example you gave would only suggest what motivates the military to create weapons that can kill, and is not representative of what motivates the majority of people. The military is controlled by its country's government, and is NOT the same as the everyday common citizen.

And your not ?.

They (government) create or miscreate the laws , the very ones your cause will need in order to get the big money required to do anything -and thats regardless of whether its even accepted (Just look at the problem stem cells had / have ) with moral / religious issues.

Unless your garage /scientist / genius with a big bank account I think you can safely rule out any hope of being immortal in this life time , the government would never allow it for a start,and more than likely just keep it for themselves.

After all who exactly is going to stop them when they answer only to themselves ?

Wikileaks ?

Or do you have some nice spandex , you been reserving for a special occassion ?

T

Edited by tepol, 31 March 2011 - 04:18 PM.

[firespin]

Have you ever lost something permanently i.e. a limb , a sense , someone you were close too yet ?

Ego and Death is what motivates people , not something , " worthy " if you dont believe me just look at how much US spends on military research , now why do you think that is ?

Is it because having more weapons is a worthy cause ( whatever that means ) ?

I suggest you look again , specifically at those times in your life youve exceeded your own expectation , and then ask yourself why ..

Tepol

That example you gave would only suggest what motivates the military to create weapons that can kill, and is not representative of what motivates the majority of people. The military is controlled by its country's government, and is NOT the same as the everyday common citizen.

And your not ?.

They (government) create or miscreate the laws , the very ones your cause will need in order to get the big money required to do anything -and thats regardless of whether its even accepted (Just look at the problem stem cells had / have ) with moral / religious issues.

Unless your garage /scientist / genius with a big bank account I think you can safely rule out any hope of being immortal in this life time , the government would never allow it for a start,and more than likely just keep it for themselves.

After all who exactly is going to stop them when they answer only to themselves ?

Wikileaks ?

Or do you have some nice spandex , you been reserving for a special occassion ?

T

No, as a American I am not controlled by the government, I am not required to fight wars or do military service. Americans don't live in a dictatorship. If we don't like a politician, we vote him out, and we change the laws we don't like. The only time the government in the US can get away with something is when people are not aware of their rights.

I doubt the government would ban immortality, because they don't have that power to completely ban any research. When Bush was president he could not ban stem cells research from private funding, only federal funding. Even cloning is legal if you use private funding. Now Obama want to also allow federal funding for stem cell research.

I believe life-extention will progress mostly from private funding. Private funding provides a lot of freedom for research, less regulation, while with federal funding there are just too many opinions.

[tepol]

Have you ever lost something permanently i.e. a limb , a sense , someone you were close too yet ?

Ego and Death is what motivates people , not something , " worthy " if you dont believe me just look at how much US spends on military research , now why do you think that is ?

Is it because having more weapons is a worthy cause ( whatever that means ) ?

I suggest you look again , specifically at those times in your life youve exceeded your own expectation , and then ask yourself why ..

Tepol

That example you gave would only suggest what motivates the military to create weapons that can kill, and is not representative of what motivates the majority of people. The military is controlled by its country's government, and is NOT the same as the everyday common citizen.

And your not ?.

They (government) create or miscreate the laws , the very ones your cause will need in order to get the big money required to do anything -and thats regardless of whether its even accepted (Just look at the problem stem cells had / have ) with moral / religious issues.

Unless your garage /scientist / genius with a big bank account I think you can safely rule out any hope of being immortal in this life time , the government would never allow it for a start,and more than likely just keep it for themselves.

After all who exactly is going to stop them when they answer only to themselves ?

Wikileaks ?

Or do you have some nice spandex , you been reserving for a special occassion ?

T

No, as a American I am not controlled by the government, I am not required to fight wars or do military service. Americans don't live in a dictatorship. If we don't like a politician, we vote him out, and we change the laws we don't like. The only time the government in the US can get away with something is when people are not aware of their rights.

If you pay taxes , drive a car and 101 other things you are most defintely controlled by the government , they dictate peoples beliefs in general , how else do you think good ol G W Bush got voted in ?

Then again , as we can see with Obama , does really matter who gets in , if they lie anyway ?

There are many example of the US government getting away with things regardless of what they tell the public , why do you think they tried to ban Wikileaks and try its founder for treason ( when hes not even an American ) ?

Whenever you create certaintity , and expectation from knowing what to expect , or rather thinking you do , you create loop that just spins in the same circle until you become deaf from hearing the same sound.

This is called brainwashing , social conditiong and usually revolves round some social system based on reason / peer pressure that something bad will happen if you dont do it.

You can just about make up any reason you like - even without having a law there to enforce it , to avoid something if you feel your are going to suffer or lose something , and you dont even have to tell anyone ( including yourself ) to do it because your Ego will always agree.

The only way you can counter that on a widescale is creating uncertaintity / death that anything can and will happen so that you are doing what matters most , when it matters most , and therefore at your best , right here , right now , not some safe time when suits you or you feel immortal.

Heres a bitty more on Death from an ol' friend o' mine


tepol

Edited by tepol, 01 April 2011 - 07:39 AM.

[Panther]

Sometimes I wish that those in charge were capable of such complex manipulations, benevolent or otherwise. For, you see, intelligence breeds morality. For the most part, at least. The mind can certainly be twisted to make horrible intellects. But that is not the natural course of things. That's why humanity has always continued down the path of progression, though destruction is always such an easy choice.

My point is that the likelihood of these conspirators you imagine existing is next to impossible. It takes a specific mixture of madness and stupidity to think fucking over the whole of humanity is actually a beneficial thing. That special blend of crazy and dumb is simply incapable of doing anything of real complexity right. Though come to think of it.. I'm stipulating an organization. Some psychotic, singular, mad genius could theoretically puppeteer the cultists. They do enjoy that sort of thing, after all. I suppose it might be possible after all. But our theoretic evil villain would be limited by his tools, the cultists, and thus could accomplish very little. And the whole thing would be revealed soon enough either way. Still, I suppose the possibility exists, however unlikely.

You know, I hear druggies are keen on talking conspiracy theory. Perhaps talking with them would be of interest to you.

[tepol]

Sometimes I wish that those in charge were capable of such complex manipulations, benevolent or otherwise. For, you see, intelligence breeds morality.

But it does not breed conciousness of ones actions outside the realms of what they see as reality, ( hence science and religions neverending standoff ) in that sense you might as well classify intelligence as dangerous too . ( Though there are some exceptions )

In fact someone already tried to do just this with happiness , and Im not joking either

(This was taken from from the British Medical Journal too ) though the person who posted this on their blog makes some very nice points below.

Enjoy,,,

T

Research paper 'A proposal to classify happiness as a psychiatric disorder' Jnl Medical Ethics, 1992, by Richard Bentall.

It is proposed that happiness be classified as a psychiatric disorder and be included in future editions of the major diagnostic manuals under the new name: 'major affective disorder, pleasant type'. In a review of the relevant literature, it is shown that happiness is statistically abnormal, consists of a discreet cluster of symptoms, is assocated with a range of cognitive abnormalities, and probably reflects the abnormal functioning of the central nervous system. One possible objection to this proposal remains – that happiness is not negatively valued. However, this objection is dismissed as scientifically irrelevant.


My link

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The use of the word normal and abnormal is fascinating. Pathologists often look for so called 'normal ranges' of health indicators. What they mean by normal is average.

What if we live in a world where average health (both mental and physical) is decidedly sub-optimal? This would make optimum health 'abnormal' according to such measures.

As such I entirely agree – happiness IS statistically abnormal, consists of a discreet cluster of symptoms, is assocated with a range of cognitive 'abnormalities', and probably reflects the abnormal functioning of the central nervous system. In the sense that in the modern world, driven by time, outcomes, money, ego tends to block us from happiness – our cognitive 'normality' is far from happy.

In Robert Holden's great book on Happiness, 'Be Happy' he makes the link between happiness and authenticity. Most people believe or feel that you cannot be inauthentic and happy. When people are authentic, they are happy. If only more doctors, psychiatrists, politicians, teachers, counsellors, coaches, leaders and HR Managers… knew this!

Edited by tepol, 01 April 2011 - 08:22 PM.

[Panther]

Heh. Yes, intelligence can be quite a dangerous thing. There are far more intelligent crazy people that dumb ones. But, what gets to me more is when stupidity dresses up as intelligence. They make things difficult, constantly spewing their perceptions, influencing lesser fools incapable of independent thought, these lies making the real problems harder to solve. But, we all do our best in this life don't we? Sadly, understanding often requires failure. Some forms of self understanding, they say, can only be had through suffering. If only that suffering could to kept to one's self, rather than spread to others.

[tepol]

Heh. Yes, intelligence can be quite a dangerous thing. There are far more intelligent crazy people that dumb ones. But, what gets to me more is when stupidity dresses up as intelligence. They make things difficult, constantly spewing their perceptions, influencing lesser fools incapable of independent thought, these lies making the real problems harder to solve. But, we all do our best in this life don't we? Sadly, understanding often requires failure. Some forms of self understanding, they say, can only be had through suffering. If only that suffering could to kept to one's self, rather than spread to others.

True understanding usually requires " concious suffering " as opposed to what most call suffering ( involuntary ) .

We humans tend to think we own everything we possess ,even if its something we dont want including suffering and that sense of entitlement we believe we have .

This is why you get the classic case of someone so hurt , that no one could possibly relate to their suffering .

Not sure what you mean by keeping suffering to yourself , what are you suggesting. someone disabled be locked up so no one sees them ?

How do you hide something as obvious as that , futhermore why should you ?

T

[brokenportal]

And your not ?.

They (government) create or miscreate the laws , the very ones your cause will need in order to get the big money required to do anything -and thats regardless of whether its even accepted (Just look at the problem stem cells had / have ) with moral / religious issues.

Unless your garage /scientist / genius with a big bank account I think you can safely rule out any hope of being immortal in this life time , the government would never allow it for a start,and more than likely just keep it for themselves.

After all who exactly is going to stop them when they answer only to themselves ?

Wikileaks ?

Or do you have some nice spandex , you been reserving for a special occassion ?

T

We are the government, and we are free to run and band together to help vote each other in. We can create more such candidates amongst ourselves. I think its an interesting concept and would love to see somebody like you take it on and be a part of that solution.

Lets just say for a moment that your scenario happens in its entirety, as bad as it can be. Thats fine. Its better to get a move on and create indefinite life extension than to not develop it to spite the might be government hoarders. If we spite them in that way then we spite ourselves too because there is no way we can have the therapies if they haven't been developed yet. But if they are developed, if we have gone through the painstaking processes of developing all of those complicated therapies, and all that is holding us back is some government hoarders, then no problem. If we can extract them from the mysteries of our cells then we will certainly be able to find a way to extract them from some peoples possession.

[Panther]

My point is that the learning processes, without a guide (and with a good one), involve failure. Lots of failure. Hopefully we survive those failures enough to build successes upon them, rather than becoming permanently twisted, poisonous. This applies to any activity, including socialization. You see, there are many people who simply talk because they, in their heads, feel they're accomplishing something. Whether they have any sanity to them, any grip on reality whatsoever, or not. They just keep on talking and talking, stringing together populist concepts sloppily, with dim understanding. Eventually, continuing these activities, they build pitiable groups of like-minds, equally demented, trying their hand at joining humanity.

Some people think ideas are harmless - a sign of supreme ignorance. Others think that, as long as one means well, all will work out in the end. Also as sign of extreme ignorance. Yet, people talk, and talk, and talk, and talk. Interesting that so few are willing to prove and test their ideas through action. Instead burying themselves in their delusions. I also hear that many people who prefer to talk rather than do enjoy heavy drug use. Interesting correlation, don't you think?

[tepol]

And your not ?.

They (government) create or miscreate the laws , the very ones your cause will need in order to get the big money required to do anything -and thats regardless of whether its even accepted (Just look at the problem stem cells had / have ) with moral / religious issues.

Unless your garage /scientist / genius with a big bank account I think you can safely rule out any hope of being immortal in this life time , the government would never allow it for a start,and more than likely just keep it for themselves.

After all who exactly is going to stop them when they answer only to themselves ?

Wikileaks ?

Or do you have some nice spandex , you been reserving for a special occassion ?

T

We are the government, and we are free to run and band together to help vote each other in. We can create more such candidates amongst ourselves. I think its an interesting concept and would love to see somebody like you take it on and be a part of that solution.

Lets just say for a moment that your scenario happens in its entirety, as bad as it can be. Thats fine. Its better to get a move on and create indefinite life extension than to not develop it to spite the might be government hoarders. If we spite them in that way then we spite ourselves too because there is no way we can have the therapies if they haven't been developed yet. But if they are developed, if we have gone through the painstaking processes of developing all of those complicated therapies, and all that is holding us back is some government hoarders, then no problem. If we can extract them from the mysteries of our cells then we will certainly be able to find a way to extract them from some peoples possession.

Long term solutions to someone dying now or suffering ( as everyone does in some form or other ) is going to matter about as much as fart in the wind imo.

What incentive does someone in that position have to contribute to something that isn unlikely to benefit them now - esp when economy is as bad as it is ?

If the whole world had maybe a days worth of self awareness , or something like global alien invasion to create a threat , maybe you can start talking about measures to preserve mankind because then people would have a REASON, and healthy dose of mortality.

As crazy as it sounds people ,need reasons because they are the the foundation of what keeps people honest about what they are doing .

You can change these reasons and add more , but in the end what it really amounts too for most people is giving away the very part of themselves that supposedly makes us human

Without this the typical person would fall apart literally or rather part of them would , which is why they remain as they do.

If yon doubt me , just try asking the typical person to behave the opposite of how they normally behave for one day for no reason at all ,futhermore try it yourself , and see how far you get .

But put someone on a stage where their aware of other peoples attention and notice how fast they change ( for better or worse ) and what they prepared to do to be heard ... even including sing .

This is the power of attention and how breaking that image people have of themselves can effect not only others , but themselves.

if you want people to believe in your idea then , you will need to meet them on their level with all their warts and woes , and not in some hpyothetical neverland that only you and few others here can access or see.

Offer them something achievable they dont within short span of time that can change their suffering / reality overnight in the same way a Simon Cowell can make someone as star...

T

Edited by tepol, 04 April 2011 - 11:46 PM.

[tepol]

My point is that the learning processes, without a guide (and with a good one), involve failure. Lots of failure. Hopefully we survive those failures enough to build successes upon them, rather than becoming permanently twisted, poisonous. This applies to any activity, including socialization. You see, there are many people who simply talk because they, in their heads, feel they're accomplishing something. Whether they have any sanity to them, any grip on reality whatsoever, or not. They just keep on talking and talking, stringing together populist concepts sloppily, with dim understanding. Eventually, continuing these activities, they build pitiable groups of like-minds, equally demented, trying their hand at joining humanity.

Some people think ideas are harmless - a sign of supreme ignorance. Others think that, as long as one means well, all will work out in the end. Also as sign of extreme ignorance. Yet, people talk, and talk, and talk, and talk. Interesting that so few are willing to prove and test their ideas through action. Instead burying themselves in their delusions. I also hear that many people who prefer to talk rather than do enjoy heavy drug use. Interesting correlation, don't you think?

Well its this lazy come -what may candid attitude that happens if your life is dulled , through not living conciously , everything becomes expendable and simply lacking because there is no them as reference point.

they just react to everything without pasuing in some knee-jerk emotionally or fear driven cycle

Its like watching cars pass through window without realising your driving in the same direction.

This is why I worry about immortality and more time , because time doesnt change that , it just turns it into a jail sentence.

Its why people look for escapism through drugs, thinking it will allow some brief reprieve from ongoing stream of mind chatter and insecurities that serve as their life.

5 Days of this and their prepared to go to zoo on the weekend, and pretty much let the jeykll ( or is it Hyde ?) come out to play.

There is nothing of permanence to them , no consistency , no " aim " they are just vitctims of their repressed fears and emotions like a leaf being blown carelessly in the wind .

These people who live like this everyday cant remember anything about themselves from day 2 day, they cant explain what lead to one thought to the next , so time itself is already irrelevant because they are not even there .

When someone doesnt appreciate time for what it is , how can you expect them to want more of it ?

T

Edited by tepol, 05 April 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[Panther]

Ha, I'm beginning to like you. Now, while your perceptions certainly have some grounding, you're still unstable. The people who so upset you certainly exist, I'm sure you're aware of that. But those are only some of the many things people can become. There are good people who care, who strive to help others. More than you may know. It's just a complex matter. Personal growth is a process, people are not born wise. Everyone grows in different ways, most take quite some time. Some, unfortunately, live lives so hard that they are broken before fully matured. Still more become quite wicked, pleased only by the suffering of others.

Humanity is still young, what you see as permanent problems are only temporary, it will grow. That or end itself in a nuclear storm. One or the other. But stagnation is not the way of things. Things will change. Guiding events down the correct path is a very, very difficult process that requires extreme amounts of experience, sagacity, and attention. Most people are too caught up with their own problems, who can handle the world?

[tepol]

Ha, I'm beginning to like you. Now, while your perceptions certainly have some grounding, you're still unstable.

The people who so upset you certainly exist, I'm sure you're aware of that. But those are only some of the many things people can become. There are good people who care, who strive to help others. More than you may know. It's just a complex matter.

There is no IF in help , you either do it uncoditionally because you want to or you dont- simple

In some exceptional cases there will be reasons i.e. to save 1 person or 50 , but not for the average person.

If however you feel the need to avoid being honest and start justifying or reasoning things to suit yourself ( which is what reason always does ) then yes it gets complex because your not doing it unconditionally but for yourself or some other social anxiety / fear that your too dense to be aware of .

Personal growth is a process, people are not born wise. Everyone grows in different ways, most take quite some time. Some, unfortunately, live lives so hard that they are broken before fully matured. Still more become quite wicked, pleased only by the suffering of others.

You dont grow simply by existing any more than lead becomes gold -unless you mean through physical or purely mental persuits like science

Most people have already succumbed to some form of common enemy long before then , then simply carry on revolving in their own merry way unless something forces them to change ( death / loss ) which by then is usually too late.

The only thing that will grow in the meantime us their attachment to that way they already are ( ego ) which is not growth at all, personal Growth can only happen through concious suffering or some significant life changing event ( like the wounded healers )

Change never happens voluntarliy I can tell you that , not unless you've already been directed or schooled down that road - unless you start including brain injuries and things like that.

Theres a reason its the road less travelled , and its not purely because its more scenic - though it certainly helps

Humanity is still young, what you see as permanent problems are only temporary, it will grow. That or end itself in a nuclear storm. One or the other. But stagnation is not the way of things. Things will change. Guiding events down the correct path is a very, very difficult process that requires extreme amounts of experience, sagacity, and attention. Most people are too caught up with their own problems, who can handle the world?

Well , If you look at the proportion of who is rich / compared to who is poor , then someone is obviously doing a very good job of seeing it remains that way . as it is grossly unbalanced

I am not saying that is clear evidence of world control , but they obviously arent exactly sharing it , or using it to help anyone other themselves , and everybody knows ..

T

Edited by tepol, 09 April 2011 - 08:11 PM.

[Panther]

If there happens to be something preventing one from accurately assessing the validity of their thoughts and actions, it is wise to understand one's limits, and refrain from things that cannot be done responsibly. Least those unchecked actions cause harm to others, as well as self destruction.

As a teenager, I smoked a lot of marijuana. Longtime heavy-users often say there is no negative effect. But everyone knows the opinions of druggies are irrelevant. It had sever and long-lasting negative effects on my life and mind. I noticed, over time, that I was simply incapable of making any sense whatsoever. Though it was very difficult for me to notice myself making such dramatic mistakes.

[JLL]

We are the government, and we are free to run and band together to help vote each other in.

Unless you work for the government, then you are not the government.

That's like saying "We are Microsoft". Except of course, working for Microsoft probably makes you a decent person, whereas working for the government makes you a shit-devouring worm.

[tepol]

If there happens to be something preventing one from accurately assessing the validity of their thoughts and actions, it is wise to understand one's limits, and refrain from things that cannot be done responsibly. Least those unchecked actions cause harm to others, as well as self destruction.

As a teenager, I smoked a lot of marijuana. Longtime heavy-users often say there is no negative effect. But everyone knows the opinions of druggies are irrelevant. It had sever and long-lasting negative effects on my life and mind. I noticed, over time, that I was simply incapable of making any sense whatsoever. Though it was very difficult for me to notice myself making such dramatic mistakes.

Well of course anything done with out regard for yourself or others is only going to end one way , but that has nothing to do with what im talking about , you dont have to be self aware to realise any sort of addiction is bad, regardless of whether is drugs, making assumptions or sex. ( on rational level )

But you do if you want to stop it , or rather just doing the opposite builds momentum needed for you to be more aware .

Something like that ( going back to what i said about doing the opposite ) can be very powerful act that lead to other things if its done through ones " own concious " choice rather than something their forced into - like a programme.

At some point in persons life there will come and time when they are faced with thier worst fears in some form or other , and will know that if they dont change at that point they never will.

It might be the repeat of lingering fear in the form of doing something you embarassed too or something else lurking in the corner of your mind that at first appears insignificant , but in your heart you will know its true because you will feel it in, nagging , you like your being torn apart.

If someone can realise the sheer magnitutde of that moment , realise whats a stake , they will have found self awareness long enough for them to effectively short circuit their peception of themselves - if they dont they will have missed boat .

There are no second chances .

T

Edited by tepol, 12 April 2011 - 04:17 AM.

[tepol]

Generally speaking there are are 3 types of seekers of self awareness.

Those who were always interested ( thats a hint ) and therefore can only ever partly get it at best unless their "talented " ( Usually the retired ,relationship crisis woman / mother, over sensitive man or those good ol Teen Witch Goths : )

Those where born or schooled in it from birth ( Zealots , Monks ..Freemasons - you know the sort... sunday school , christian rock groups .. no permartial sex ( which can of course be fear based itself - as Old time Religion proves )

Those who couldnt of cared less , sometimes even lead opposting lifestlyes - who for whatever reason - ended up getting something they never asked for that that throws right in the deep till they have no choice but to swim. ( Classic Wounded Healer / Dark night of the Soul scenario )


T

Edited by tepol, 12 April 2011 - 05:17 AM.